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The age of the substitute
- Thread starter 3v3rnoob
- Start date
I certainly have come to enjoy Substitutes.
They get a lot of use in my Doubles Team where all my Water Absorbers have it to take advantage of extra HP from Surf.
I go a bit overboard and try to baton pass them with Acid Armour boosts, but it's so satisfying to see them take so many hits and still not break.
They get a lot of use in my Doubles Team where all my Water Absorbers have it to take advantage of extra HP from Surf.
I go a bit overboard and try to baton pass them with Acid Armour boosts, but it's so satisfying to see them take so many hits and still not break.
Substitutes can end up problematic if you're outpredicted; just attacking something that you think is going to set up a substitute rather than attack will normally break the sub and leave your opponent down 25% for no gain at all. Of course, this is incredibly risky, as things normally try to set up Subs against things they think they'll force out. Still, it's not as though Substitute can't be played around (unless you play the sort of stall team that relies on status rather than attacks to take out enemies, or you can't even do 25% to your opponent's bulky sweeper).
If something can run Rock Blast rather than Stone Edge (Especially for super-effective damage against those fliers and ice types) it tends to break the sub in one and hit for at least some damage on 2+. The only problem is the random factor of how many times it will not hit dropping the power of the move drastically when the move only strikes twice.
I think the rising popularity of substitutes is due to people tired of making bad predicts. Tossing out a sub let's you choose your next move perfectly and often take out something that would be sent in as a revenge killer.
I think the rising popularity of substitutes is due to people tired of making bad predicts. Tossing out a sub let's you choose your next move perfectly and often take out something that would be sent in as a revenge killer.
Rock-blast and icicle-spear (sub chomp, but it's not around anymore), are the best multihit moves. And icicle spear only due to typing. However cloyster (with skill link) can take full advantae of those moves. Other methods are encore (goes through sub) and sheer prediction. But I would like to see more skill-link pokemon with multihit moves (a la rockblast not bulled-seed).
Taunt sweepers can stop substitues bar Machamp. Basically Machamp for me is the best sub-abuser in the game next is breloom and jirachi. Though I hope your prediction wont come true seeing that latias is now gone frail sweepers like ape can shine again.
I'm sorry, but I had to AdBlock that enormous image. What are we talking about again? Oh, right, Substitute. My non-competitive friend doesn't get the move at all, since more often than not he almost always sees situations where someone throws up a Sub, only for it to be immediately demolished. "Why even bother?" he asked. Then I told him to run Substitute/Focus Punch/Sucker Punch/Return on his Kangaskhan. I think he gets it now. =)
The thing about Substitute on offensive Pokemon is that it eases prediction, but even it can be beaten by prediction, by simply having your Pokemon attack to break the Substitute (unless it can't, like a Scarftran stuck on Flamethrower against a Subtran). Also, using Substitute encourages the use of Leftovers on offensive Pokemon, which means that you lose out on Choice items and Life Orb.
Don't get me wrong, I think Substitute is a great move, but it's a move that works way better in very offensive metagames like Little Cup and Ubers (though in Ubers, people don't use it much lol).
Don't get me wrong, I think Substitute is a great move, but it's a move that works way better in very offensive metagames like Little Cup and Ubers (though in Ubers, people don't use it much lol).
Really?, I'd think it capitalizes on the amount of switching and statusing stall needs to do, thus helping offense against stall teams.
Substitute is amazing against people, even experienced players. I'd argue that it's the best move in the game and we're just starting to see it. Like Uturn it eases prediction on the switch. It blocks status on your sweeper(Except for encore), and is all in all amazingly useful.
I think sub is one of the best moves out there. If you cause a switch, something is going to have to take a big beating just to remove the sub, eventually wearing them down. For example, switch ins to subtran like swampert eventually lose unless they have rest because toxic can just wear them down as they are forced to break your subs. Substitute can also be devastating on something like gengar, who can't be pursuited with a sub up, and can destroy scizor and ttar with the right move, ultimately forcing the opponent to lose a valuable pokemon to break the sub and open a revenge kill. Using luck with a sub is a real pain to face, like twave + iron head jirachi.
Phazing > subs
More things need Encore. Alternatively, you could attempt to predict their Substitute and try to TrickChoice them and lock them into Substitute. The number of times I have done that to Gengars, Jirachis, Jolteons and Ninjasks are hilarious.
The other thing being that Substitute necessitates the use of Leftovers, almost, so you miss out on the boost of more offensive items such as Choice, Life Orb, and even Expert Belt. As well as that, switching into an attack of hazards gives the game away a little as you restore 6%. Anybody with a brain immediately thinks "why does this offensive mon have lefties? maybe it has substitute."
What I don't like about Substitute is the way a lot of people respond to it. More often than not, as I bring something to revenge kill, Substitute as they switch, they tend to double switch again to something else. Why? Was your original counter unable to survive my attack and break the sub + attack? Then it's not much of a counter, is it?
But I agree - if they have a Sub up, it's very difficult to kill that Pokemon otherwise without losing something of your own. A strong attacker that plays with a Sub well will usually net two to three kills per game, with the most inexperienced of players still able to weaken the foe's team substantially thanks to the extra hit you get in.
I don't like Substitute though. As good as it is, it's almost like a cop-out move. "I have nothing better to do and don't want to think more so I'll just run Substitute."
The other thing being that Substitute necessitates the use of Leftovers, almost, so you miss out on the boost of more offensive items such as Choice, Life Orb, and even Expert Belt. As well as that, switching into an attack of hazards gives the game away a little as you restore 6%. Anybody with a brain immediately thinks "why does this offensive mon have lefties? maybe it has substitute."
What I don't like about Substitute is the way a lot of people respond to it. More often than not, as I bring something to revenge kill, Substitute as they switch, they tend to double switch again to something else. Why? Was your original counter unable to survive my attack and break the sub + attack? Then it's not much of a counter, is it?
But I agree - if they have a Sub up, it's very difficult to kill that Pokemon otherwise without losing something of your own. A strong attacker that plays with a Sub well will usually net two to three kills per game, with the most inexperienced of players still able to weaken the foe's team substantially thanks to the extra hit you get in.
I don't like Substitute though. As good as it is, it's almost like a cop-out move. "I have nothing better to do and don't want to think more so I'll just run Substitute."
How do they break it at all? Just because you find it annoying doesn't = Breaking the Metagame
Breaking the metagame? How? Substitute is a 25% drop in health (And with how prevalent SS is, you are likely not gaining it back with Leftovers, if you choose to carry it which means a loss in power) and 25% is not extremely difficult to do on any Pokemon. In most cases, Substitute is probably the worse option on a set, unless that set is designed to function behind a Substitute (Breloom, Zapdos, Machamp, and Jirachi for example).
I agree it is a great move and can be used very effectively, but only on Pokemon that center around Substitute. Infernape losing one of it's coverage attacks or a stat up move for Substitute just means a 25% cut in health and lost coverage. This will likely end up letting them use another counter to beat Infernape. This is the reason you don't see Substitute thrown onto offensive Pokemon when they have different options for the last set - It just isn't as useful to lose 25% of your health when you could have a beneficial move, like healing, an attack, or status.
Before 4th Gen Subsitute was fairly thinly spread. Now its a TM and every pokemon can use it. If this becomes the case with Encore in gen 5, we're good to go.
On another note, I like Substitute's concept a lot, but now it's pretty broken. If they nerf it in Gen 5 so that status attacks go through it, this "era" will end just like that.
Stall is about setting up walling the enemy, setting up layers, and phazing. In OU, when facing stall it's actually detrimental to use Substitute on an offensive Pokemon since it means that you're giving up the force that you might need to break through the enemy team. I mean, who cares that a Boah has a Sub? Swampert still beats it.
I sure hope they don't render one of my favorite moves utterly useless in Gen 5 like you suggest. The primary function of Substitute has always been to block Status moves and net you a free turn in doing so. I don't think it's broken in the slightest. Rather, it's a very effective move that you should always be considering in the back of your mind when you make a selection.
I'm not saying it's a good idea, I'm just saying that's what it would do to Substitute.
And this is a big debate about how powerful that move is. IDK if I think its broken or not (despite my last post) but I simply gave an option to make it less powerful for those who think it is broken.
I don't think that they need to NERF sub, just make other moves better. Namely, to make a move similar to double kick or rock blast or even double hit in a different typing. That way if you KNOW that something is about to drop a sub, you can break it and still do damage to them.
BTW, it is totally worth it to put encore on an infernape in the current meta. It's easily one of the fastest users, and nothing (for instance Jirachi) can use sub and outspeed it so that the move substitute isn't encored. In fact, that doesn't just go for substitutes. Any move that isn't a status move will do. Use it after stealth rocks or rapid spin. That gives you a HUGE advantage because the opponent HAS to switch. Think about it. They then have to use that generally useless move for 5-8 turns, and get nothing out of it, so they must switch.
BTW, it is totally worth it to put encore on an infernape in the current meta. It's easily one of the fastest users, and nothing (for instance Jirachi) can use sub and outspeed it so that the move substitute isn't encored. In fact, that doesn't just go for substitutes. Any move that isn't a status move will do. Use it after stealth rocks or rapid spin. That gives you a HUGE advantage because the opponent HAS to switch. Think about it. They then have to use that generally useless move for 5-8 turns, and get nothing out of it, so they must switch.
Beat up. go. xD
IMHO, in the current metagame every team should have something with Encore. It's the most annoying move ever. More annoying than Taunt by far. Of course, it requires prediction.
It's interesting that no one has mentioned subseeding yet. It's a really effective strategy for grass types to use. I've beat out SD Luke who wanted to turn my Abomnasnow in to set up fodder. You have to find a few turns to set up, but good predictions and team support take care of that. Also a set utilizing subs similar to subseeding is Stallrien. I just put together a hail team, and Stallrien does his job. Anyways I really don't get why subs are broken, it is a great move, with utility in offence and defence, but it isn't to the point of brokeness at all. I didn't know it even had an age.
This is 100% true. You can't just slap Substitute onto any random Pokemon and expect it to do anything.
A Pokemon that uses substitute well is definitely Breloom (who some argue is broken because of Poison Heal + Substitute + Spore).
However, there are a lot of pokemon that use substitute "well". Perhaps more often than not. Gengar likes to come in, forcing a switch on a revenge killer, and getting his sub up to mess with whatever comes in next. Anyone with a sleep move can sleep their opponent and take the free sub and do the same thing. Perhaps a better question is, what pokemon absolutely CANNOT use substitute successfully?
Shedinja.
But seriously, a good counter for Substitutes is Roar. Sends them away, wastes their 25% and you'll know that they're packing sub so you can try and stop them next time.