you could actually interpret this as a good thing, as it teaches the player that type matchups arent everything.
you could, but i dont think anyone will.
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The Best and Worst Boss Fights in Pokemon
- Thread starter Yung Dramps
- Start date
you could, but i dont think anyone will.
Continuing the defense of RBY's Onix, the Move Bide.
Yes, it's a bad move, because it turns the user into a sitting Psyduck.
But when Brock's Onix uses it, it turns into a teaching moment. What does it teach the player?
"Hey, Status moves are cool, you should use them sometimes instead of spamming Physical or Special Moves."
This battle gives your Pokémon's Status Moves―your Growls, Tail Whips, Hardens and Poison Powders―a time to shine, as they weaken Onix (or, in Harden's case, toughen your Pokémon) without receiving any damage from Bide.
Or you could switch out your Pokémon over and over. This indirectly teaches the player that catching Pokémon = good.
The only problem with that is that Brock uses Full Heals, which I definitely think is a mistake on their part. If the player used Poison Powder or got lucky with Ember/Poison Sting, they should be rewarded for that, and giving Brock a way to remove status is bad in a first Gym.
I keep forgetting Brock had exclusive access to Full Heals from Pewter City's Poké Mart.
By the way, isn't it weird that the only unique Trainer to use Full Heals in the entire franchise was a 1st Gym Leader? A new player during their first playthrough probably had no idea what this item does.
I'm always a bit confused that more isn't done with in-battle items TBH. It feels like there should be a clear progression of items used by various NPCs, certain trainer classes should use items more often(beyond Gym Leaders and Rich ppl), etc. Ignoring difficulty, it would just be a fun way of adding character to various aspects of the game.
I've been playing through Let's Go lately and I was a bit surprised that the enemy design in that game is... good, actually? Like, there's way more thought put into battles than you'd think a game designed to cash in nostalgia and mobile players would.
For exemple, let's look at Lt. Surge's Raichu, which has a moveset of Thunderbolt, Double Kick and Quick Attack. Pretty underwhelming, right? But consider that this battle is designed to teach you about type immunities. A Thunderbolt coming off a base Special Attack of 90 really, really hurts at this point in the game... unless you bring in a Ground type. The other two moves are basically a formality, all Raichu really needs is a nuke to get this point across. And the fun thing is, since movesets are a lot smaller in this game, basically every other Electric type after this point will be carrying Thunderbolt, so you'll have to respect even random trainers when they send one.
There's plenty of thought put into Pokémon movesets and how they influence the game design. The Geodude line is given Stealth Rock by level up, so you'll pretty much be forced to deal with this move throughout the game (unlike most mainline games, which almost never use it). The Gastly line not only has Shadow Ball, so it can ACTUALLY deal with Psychic types, it also gets both Will-O-Wisp and Toxic by the point you'll find them in the game, so they can effectively be a nuisance to other types.
I also appreciate how they put in some effort to add variety to the random trainer teams. It doesn't completely solve Kanto's Too Many Trainers problem, but it's at least bearable now. Oh, and Pokémon that have stone evolutions usually get all their moves around level 30, by the time you're getting to Celadon.
I know all of this isn't gonna set anyone's world on fire, especially now that the battle system is way more complex, but considering how shocking little though seems to go to level-up learnsets in most mainline games, it's a little fascinating to see a game with a lot of consideration for how effective they're gonna be, both for the player and the enemies.
For exemple, let's look at Lt. Surge's Raichu, which has a moveset of Thunderbolt, Double Kick and Quick Attack. Pretty underwhelming, right? But consider that this battle is designed to teach you about type immunities. A Thunderbolt coming off a base Special Attack of 90 really, really hurts at this point in the game... unless you bring in a Ground type. The other two moves are basically a formality, all Raichu really needs is a nuke to get this point across. And the fun thing is, since movesets are a lot smaller in this game, basically every other Electric type after this point will be carrying Thunderbolt, so you'll have to respect even random trainers when they send one.
There's plenty of thought put into Pokémon movesets and how they influence the game design. The Geodude line is given Stealth Rock by level up, so you'll pretty much be forced to deal with this move throughout the game (unlike most mainline games, which almost never use it). The Gastly line not only has Shadow Ball, so it can ACTUALLY deal with Psychic types, it also gets both Will-O-Wisp and Toxic by the point you'll find them in the game, so they can effectively be a nuisance to other types.
I also appreciate how they put in some effort to add variety to the random trainer teams. It doesn't completely solve Kanto's Too Many Trainers problem, but it's at least bearable now. Oh, and Pokémon that have stone evolutions usually get all their moves around level 30, by the time you're getting to Celadon.
I know all of this isn't gonna set anyone's world on fire, especially now that the battle system is way more complex, but considering how shocking little though seems to go to level-up learnsets in most mainline games, it's a little fascinating to see a game with a lot of consideration for how effective they're gonna be, both for the player and the enemies.
We can't talk about LGPE bosses without bringing up Koga's insane glowup
Toxic + Protect spam including an extra trolly Fly Golbat, the deadweight Koffings being replaced, a huge buff in levels and offensive firepower way more fitting for this point in the game, it's all great. Special Muk is the only goofy bit but it's not like he was better off before (lol sludge).
I'm telling you people, this game would be so sick if its foundation was literally anything besides RBY Kanto
Toxic + Protect spam including an extra trolly Fly Golbat, the deadweight Koffings being replaced, a huge buff in levels and offensive firepower way more fitting for this point in the game, it's all great. Special Muk is the only goofy bit but it's not like he was better off before (lol sludge).
I'm telling you people, this game would be so sick if its foundation was literally anything besides RBY Kanto
He still couldn't bring any ground coverage sadly, but at least LGPE Koga can hit grounds with things other than normal moves
Weird how gamefreak decided to lock in on enemy trainer design in the babies game. Did they forget what they were producing?
Weird how gamefreak decided to lock in on enemy trainer design in the babies game. Did they forget what they were producing?
USUM, LGPE and BDSP all have pretty good movesets, tbh
I think this is a really interesting post. I wanna make a thread talking about the typing of the Pokemon you face and how it’s intended to influence team composition. But I think for the first gym, they prefer going with a “weaker” type with less late-game strong Pokemon. IE, Bug is a frequent early gym because there are usually a few new weak bug pokemon introduced each generation.I think the idea of analysing first gym leaders is particularly interesting. There are trends that can be observed that are a little strange. The typings of the first gym leaders in different games in the series are Rock-, Flying-, the type that's SE on your starter (FWG), Normal-, Bug-, Normal- or Normal-/Dark-, Grass-Type. For me as someone who really doesn't like Totem Battles, this means that there's only one contender for the best first gym battle in the series.
Best: Cheren (BW2)
How is Cheren the only first gym leader to use a typing that doesn't advantage or disadvantage certain starters over the others? Not only that, but they intentionally put his levels just low enough even in Challenge Mode to mean that so long as the player isn't over-levelling none of the starters will have evolved, so Pignite's secondary Fighting-Type isn't even a factor. It's the start of the game -- players have the option of Water-, Grass-, Flying-, Normal-, Fire- (starter only except Sinnoh and Kalos iirc), Bug-, and sometimes Dark- (Hoenn & BW1 only iirc) and Fighting-Type Pokémon (Kanto, Sinnoh & BW2 only iirc). Players don't have a lot of team options and in some cases choosing a certain starter all but necessitates a certain wild Pokémon: if you choose Fire-Type in any of the regions with a Rock-Type first gym leader you're essentially forced into using Mankey in Kanto, Shroomish / Lotad | Seedot (if you use Bullet Seed TM) / Wingull in Hoenn, and Machop / Budew / Psyduck in Sinnoh. If you choose Chikorita in Johto you have to use a Geodude or throw a full team of 6 Normal-Type Pokémon at Falkner, and in BW1 you're literally forced into receiving and then intuitively using an elemental monkey. Admittedly what Yung Dramps said about Viola is true and something I hadn't noticed before, so the type matchup isn't so clear-cut there. However, using one starter still gives a big advantage over the others -- it's just not in an intuitive way, so Chespin is the best matchup against the Bug-type gym leader whereas Fennekin and Froakie struggle a little and are forced to use a Flying-Type, or muscle through the Surskit with Normal-Type moves before using a Litleo on the Vivillon.
It's a very strange issue because the series has options available to it. Normal-, Fighting-, Psychic-, Dragon-, Ghost-, and Dark-Type are all viable options for early game gym leaders that wouldn't advantage one of the Fire-, Water- or Grass-Type starters over their alternatives, assuming the base forms of all of the starters are pure type. It seems like intuitively better game design to use any of these types as the first gym leaders for that reason, but in all 7 generations featuring gym leaders, only one actually does so. The only reason I can think of is that for less experienced players they can choose the starter that has the easiest time against the first boss battle, and the more experienced players can choose a challenge route if they like. However, this only works if players have knowledge of what type the first leader is which is never presented in-game before the starter is chosen, and by the time players are playing through the game for a second time none of them should need to take the easy road because they've understood the game enough to take down the Champion already. Furthermore, if that truly is the logic behind this design, Cheren further proves that it's not necessary to wrap the starters up in providing an easy route. Riolu can be found rarely in Floccessy Ranch and comes knowing Fighting-Type moves. If you're struggling against Cheren, you can catch a Riolu and beat him without breaking a sweat.
My favorite boss fight, or one of them, is the fight with your Dad is R/S. I think Slaking is a really cool opponent because he’s strong enough to destroy your team, but the game gives you a ton of counterplay. I think as a whole, Hoenn did a good job maximizing their gym leaders’ potential by giving them powerful Pokemon with exploitable weaknesses.
As for least favorite, I’d say Lance/Bugsy/Morty in HGSS. With Lance, it’s as you said: dragon types are going to be hard in general due to its strong stats and strong defensive typing, and HGSS maximizes that by not giving you enough tools to deal with him. As a whole in that game, I think the level curve was more of a challenge than in Crystal, because you didn’t have both sets of badges boosts, and opponents had stronger moves and abilities, which makes the game harder.
I kinda wanna make a post about it in a different thread but I feel like compared to FRLG they struggled more to compensate for the power creep.
Bugsy is on there bc I couldn’t outduel him with my Cyndaquil. I don’t mind such a situation arising, but I don’t like it when it’s not bc of a clever strategy or good Pokemon typing or moveset by the AI, but rather because the Pokemon in question (Technician Scyther) is stronger than your pokemon at that stage of the game.
With Morty, I feel similarly. And with both, there are easy counters of a rock and normal type respectively, but I don’t feel like the imposed limitations add to the game. And there isn’t enough xp up until there.
On that note, I’d say BW2 has the best boss fights in the series because the opponents use generally non-cheesy but still good strategies, and you are given the tools to beat them in game.
It feels like a basic observation, but playing that was the first time I’d given real thought to why Pokemon were given the type they were and how it helped them, ie seeing how ground added to water vs how water/flying removed the grass weakness in exchange for others. Obv that dynamic has been there from the beginning, but usually there would be so much other BS going on in the fight that I was more focused on achieving my goal while avoiding hitting myself in confusion or bc of paralysis.
As for least favorite, I’d say Lance/Bugsy/Morty in HGSS. With Lance, it’s as you said: dragon types are going to be hard in general due to its strong stats and strong defensive typing, and HGSS maximizes that by not giving you enough tools to deal with him. As a whole in that game, I think the level curve was more of a challenge than in Crystal, because you didn’t have both sets of badges boosts, and opponents had stronger moves and abilities, which makes the game harder.
I kinda wanna make a post about it in a different thread but I feel like compared to FRLG they struggled more to compensate for the power creep.
Bugsy is on there bc I couldn’t outduel him with my Cyndaquil. I don’t mind such a situation arising, but I don’t like it when it’s not bc of a clever strategy or good Pokemon typing or moveset by the AI, but rather because the Pokemon in question (Technician Scyther) is stronger than your pokemon at that stage of the game.
With Morty, I feel similarly. And with both, there are easy counters of a rock and normal type respectively, but I don’t feel like the imposed limitations add to the game. And there isn’t enough xp up until there.
On that note, I’d say BW2 has the best boss fights in the series because the opponents use generally non-cheesy but still good strategies, and you are given the tools to beat them in game.
It feels like a basic observation, but playing that was the first time I’d given real thought to why Pokemon were given the type they were and how it helped them, ie seeing how ground added to water vs how water/flying removed the grass weakness in exchange for others. Obv that dynamic has been there from the beginning, but usually there would be so much other BS going on in the fight that I was more focused on achieving my goal while avoiding hitting myself in confusion or bc of paralysis.
I wouldn't be able to list all my favorite and least favorite battles if Rom Hacks are considered.
I don't know if I'd call it a "glowup" but it's so funny how they gave Brock's Onix Headbutt in this game, because flinch hax is the only way it can be threatening
Come to think of it, LGPE is the game where Brock works the best at his tutorial role, isn't it? I remember a while back Volt-Ikazuchi mustered a solid argument that RBG/FRLG Brock is a complete failure due to how he rewards happening to pick the right starter and dumb brute forcing rather than learning type matchups or diversifying your team. In this game, however, both potential starter choices get folded by Onix and the preceding routes have Oddish or Bellsprout depending on version. It's pretty simple and straight-forward, but it works!I don't know if I'd call it a "glowup" but it's so funny how they gave Brock's Onix Headbutt in this game, because flinch hax is the only way it can be threatening
I think you can go off to Route 3 to get Mankey in Yellow too so the same thing applies
Sorry if this is wishlish but i think the peak tutorial gym would be a dragon type gym. other than electric type, its much more flexible in letting you pick different teammates to deal with it while still being resistant to your starter. rock suffers from making normal moves bad to use, which is a fair lesson but i dont think its one thats good in the super early game where 70% of your movepool will be normal type, but most importantly being a gym that is gonna get steamrolled by grass and/or water. Unless you make it have perfect coverage for those types, but for the first gym that starts feeling like too much imo.
You could even do something cool like having the first gym also be the last, revisiting it with a much stronger team that tests if you managed to make a good team to cover a much wider range of dragons with different weaknesses
You could even do something cool like having the first gym also be the last, revisiting it with a much stronger team that tests if you managed to make a good team to cover a much wider range of dragons with different weaknesses
Can the first gym in G/S be considered a "boss fight"? Falkner has a lv 9 pidgeotto as his strongest pokemon. And his other pokemon is a lv 7
I figure that Rock was decent when it took a few levels for starters to learn their first STAB so there's an expectation the absolute newbie could be used to scratch/tackle by that point already (so a Normal resist is useful regardless). Not sure why we never got an early Steel gym to maintain the Normal resist while inverting the fire/grass starter matchup, but the opportunity has passed. Now that the first fight has a tendency to be against the type-weak rival with STAB moves present, that assumption doesn't hold.
I also like that while dragon resists all three starter types, it isn't SE against any of them. Trying to force the player to experiment only really works if they have the time to do so.
I think while having a type with tons of resistances as the first gym could be interesting, I think people are forgetting that first time players aren't gonna be familiar with the type chart. So the devs tend to put Pokémon that are based on common animals and type matchups that are easy to understand in the early game
i mean, i think thats why you need to familiarize them with it! even a world tip that says that the gym has pokemon that resist all the starters, with a few routes that have Other types like normals, rocks - hell throw in an ice type for fun, its a great excuse to finally have an early route ice mon - will hint that you should probably get other mons to help you out. the pokemon format is very kind to making mistakes tbh, just rematch once youre stronger
I like the idea for like, a challenge run of sorts, but on a casual player level I don't like the idea. Even with BW, I find that implementation (which is much tamer, only 1 Pokemon in the gym really goes through with this idea) to be lame, you're basically just using the monkey or if you're a player using the 1 of 3 early route mons in this game, that can be high enough level to do it.
BW in general has a problem where the solution to each gym is just outside the gym, and I think that this as an encouraged design is not very good. BW is one of the only gens where I go out of my way to catch more shit, not because I want to but because there are a few early game scenarios where it feels almost necessary, and it isn't fun for that.
BW in general has a problem where the solution to each gym is just outside the gym, and I think that this as an encouraged design is not very good. BW is one of the only gens where I go out of my way to catch more shit, not because I want to but because there are a few early game scenarios where it feels almost necessary, and it isn't fun for that.
I think it only works if its the first gym only, as those tend to be much more of tutorials than a noteworthy challenge. Unless you go wild and make the first gym take a while to appear, the low levels of everything means its a simple tackle/scratch + insert stat lowering move + a stab or tm. And another good side to dragon is that, while something like an ice type would be useful, the fact that dragons at low levels don't really have a lot of great stab moves (other than fucking dragon rage LOOOOL) and dont hit super effectively means you have more leeway with just picking More mons and diversifying your team instead of "i need an ice type to beat these guys or else i will die"
While the general point stands, Dragon Rage is a major threat in the early game. Starters usually don't get to 40HP until around level 15.
Didn't Dragon Rage get Dexited?
I focused on it because it was mentioned earlier. I don't really keep track of what moves are dexited since my main current interaction with the series is Natdex formats on Showdown.
i joked about dragon rage because its the only good dragon move low level dragons can get and they cant even use it, because itd be too strong. truly a gen 1 classic of dragon being purely a defensive type