All Gens The Best Types In History - Round 2: GSC (See post 114)

[Disaster Area]

I personally think it's pretty clear that water falls below both of them, the question is more between ice and ground.

I think offensively each offers roughly equal value, but defensively ice resistance, no really common weakness, and freeze immunity serves to put ice above ground which is defensively less valuable.

Also the count of OU mons for each is 3-2, 4 if you include articuno (I don't though); the 3 ice types all serve different roles (although lapras/cloyster's similar) whereas the ground types occupy a very similar niche.

 

[Jellicent]

Offensively
Ice - chance to freeze; best special attacking type; threatens Eggy, GolDon, DNite, Zap, Bel; great neutral coverage, only resisted by the various Waters + other Ice-types; Blizz + IB are both solid options

Ground - second best physical attacking type; EQ is powerful + great coverage alongside Normal; Flying-types are immune, though only DNite would risk it against GolDon

Water - probably only 4th best special offensive typing, following Ice / Psychic / Electric; trumps GolDon, but welcomes in Eggy and other Waters (which require different coverage); finds itself occasionally forgone when other STAB options are available, unlike Ice and Ground

Defensively
Ice - resists Ice and can't be frozen; Fire and Fighting are negligible weaknesses; Rock Slide is mostly just seen on GolDon, who won't switch into potential Blizzards; ignoring Ghost (since only Gar exists), it's the 2nd or 3rd best defensive typing around (Psychic wins, Normal and Ice are a little more on par with each other, though Ice probably still wins it)

Ground - Electric immunity is what keeps the Electrics in check; Thunder Wave immunity is great; weakness to Ice (as well as the double weakness to Water and Grass on GolDon) isn't fun; GolDon come with a nice Normal resist and Defense, even if that's not due to their typing (still seems worth mentioning in the overall scope of how the best of the type fare in the metagame)

Water - Ice and Water resist is handy; Electric (and to a lesser extent Grass) isn't a great weakness; can be more of a hindrance than a blessing at times



Ice at #3 seems pretty clear-cut there. It's both offensively and defensively a better typing overall than Ground and Water. Despite Water-types being more common than either, I'd put Ground at #4. It easily wins offensively, though might lag a little behind defensively. Electrics would probably rival Waters if they weren't wholeheartedly manhandled by GolDon (sans lol Raichu)

Electric at #6 was already pretty much unanimous; Grass is the only thing I can really see poking in at #7; it's great on Eggy, is a huge boon to Bel, and at least helps Venu to be niche. Offensively, it's taking out GolDon, is the best stop to Slowbro, and is only resisted by other Grasses, Zap, Gar, and DNite.

 

[Disaster Area]

(sans lol Raichu)

Hey my agile and hyper pocket mouse is legit, did you not see the RMT :p

Also that post matches mine as far down as you go in this post xP

If I moved poison down to the bottom, is there any of it you'd disagree with?

 

[Jorgen]

ps. making chansey psychic would be a huge upgrade.

Thanks to Crystal_'s recent discovery about Normal-types being immune to Body Slam paralysis, this is no longer entirely true.

 

[Jellicent]

If I moved poison down to the bottom, is there any of it you'd disagree with?

Our initial lists are fairly similar. Now that you're going Ground over Water, there are just a couple switches of close mediocre / crappy types, but at that point, it's "what sucks the least?" and I don't have that strong of an opinion one way or the other on them, tbh.

Like, getting into #8-10, I think Rock has a pretty solid case for 8, which it looks like you agree with as well. I put Flying over Ghost, but that's mostly because Gengar is the only Ghost representative and it's pretty risky. Flying's mostly just Zap, DNite, and Dodrio, but at least Zap and Dodrio can use their STAB. Ghost doesn't have an offensive STAB to speak of and the only available Ghost loses out on fantastic defensive typing thanks to Poison. Flying's kind of a downer defensively, but so is Gengar, so I gave the edge to Flying overall. After that, you're in the "oof, this is just crappy" zone and it feels more like nitpicking (though we'll have nitpick eventually, haha.)

 

[Disaster Area]

yeah I'm pretty sure my nit picking is detailed. The question is whether we give more merit for no serious OU presence but multiple cases of borderline viability (Fire - ninetales, moltres, zard, arcanine, fire blast on golem) or for no borderline viability really but an important move or two (bug - pin missile for jolteon, fighting - double kick for jolteon, less important than bug) although machamp/hitmonlee are borderline viable in RBY. Obviously none of this borderline viable stuff would see serious use in SPL or even the next level down of tours by good users.

 

[Golden Gyarados]

If I moved poison down to the bottom, is there any of it you'd disagree with?

I disagree that Poison is last. I think it has to be Bug or Fighting. No one brings Bug or Fighting types into OU, and ignoring Seismic Toss and Counter (since their output is independent of the typing), the only Pokemon who uses a Bug or Fighting move is Jolteon. Poison has viable OU Pokemon of the type, and even if there are no STAB moves, Toxic exists (you'll see it on Zapdos, mostly, but some people try to take advantage of the Leech Seed glitch by putting it on a Grass type). Even though Poison is AWFUL, it still influences the metagame to SOME degree, something that you can't say about Bug or Fighting. One of those has to take the last spot.

 

[Disaster Area]

I disagree that Poison is last.

Reasoning: (initially I had it at #11, but my opinion changed after Jellicent's post)

15) Poison. This probably seems odd, since there are viable Poison-types, but hear me out. The Psychic and Ground weaknesses mean it's battered by most special and physical threats. The fact that there are OU-viable Poisons is not a merit to the typing at all; it just shows that they have a niche despite a massive handicap. Gengar, Victreebel, and Venusaur would be so much better if they lost that secondary typing. Nidoking would probably see actual usage without the Poison-typing. It's awful.

Also I'd argue that fire's less influential than bug or fighting. Toxic is relevant though, we hadn't brought that up yet.

 

[Jellicent]

Toxic's in the same boat as Thunder Wave or Seismic Toss. It's just as good on anything, regardless of what type it is.

Defensively, Poison is the absolute worst. Offensively, Sludge is the strongest STAB (with a Base Power of 65), and that's only learned by Muk and Weezing. Plus, the only viable Pokemon it hits super effectively is Eggy (the only others are Tangela and Bugs that aren't part Poison.) There are useful Poison-types, but their Poison typing is what stops them from being great.

Bug and Fighting at least give coverage moves Jolteon. If we're just looking at which type has the worst Pokemon, then it's probably Bug. Looking at the worst type as a whole, though (defensive and offensive perks and disadvantages, attacks, how it benefits or hinders viable Pokemon), it's just the worst in my eyes. The only benefit it brings to anything is... Gengar walls Victreebel even moreso?

 

[Loudo]

Ice at #3 seems pretty clear-cut there.

Jellicent, sorry, but you haven't exactly argumented your opinion there. You just made a lot of statements (some of which I don't agree with, for example Ice being the best special offensive type in the game: no matter how awesome Blizzard is, you are not beating a lot of Pokémon with it, while Psychic can potentially beat everything, even Chansey and stuff that resists it), but you failed to compare Ice and Ground, which should be the whole point.

I will go back to my criteria list. I don't know if you guys agree with it or not, personally I think it is more useful than comparing how good each type is offensively and defensively, because that just encourages people to look at the type chart and not at how Pokémon and attacks actually affect the metagame.
(For example, saying that Ice has no real weaknesses is a mistake. While it's true that weakness to Fire, Fighting, and Rock are almost irrelevant, this statement fails to notice that all existing Ice-types are dual types and so have real weaknesses. All Ice-types but Jynx are weak to Electric, and Jynx's Defense is so low that she might as well be considered weak to every physical attacking type. Ice is sort of on the same boat with Ghost, defensively speaking. Awesome if you just look at the chart, much more troubling if you look at the actual Pokémon. Except of course weakness to Electric isn't as huge a deal as weakness to Psychic and EQ.)

So anyway, back to the criteria list.

1. How Pokémon of that type perform in the metagame.

Ice clearly wins here. Not only are there a lot of good Ice-types, but every Ice-type Pokémon but Dewgong is viable and has a niche in the OU metagame.
I would have argued that Ground-types are still more common overall than Ice-types, but I guess I have been proven wrong there.

2. How attacks of that type are important in the metagame.

Ground wins here. I would like to invite you all to make a thought experiment.
Imagine what would happen to the OU meta if Ice Beam and Blizzard didn't exist. Clearly Exeggutor, Victreebel, and Dragonite would become much much better, Chansey could no longer rely on freezing to beat other Chansey, and Starmie would probably see much less usage, seeing as it would only invite Exeggutor to switch in. Some match-ups would be screwed up (like Exeggutor vs. any Ice-type), but the metagame would still be recognizable.
Now imagine what would happen to the OU meta if EQ didn't exist. Suddenly Tauros would just become a Persian variant and Snorlax would have to rely on Psychic to be able to scratch Gengar in any significant way. The metagame would be turned completely upside down, with special attacks being much more central than they are in the real meta.

The point I'm trying to make is that while Ice attacks are awesome, freeze chance is a bee's sneeze, and all that stuff, Ground is part of the reason we even ranked Normal #1! How do you get more influential than that?

3. How influential the typing is in the above two factors.

No one can deny that Ground is a very influential reason why GolDon and EQ are what they are. None of them would probably be used at all if they weren't Ground-typed.
What about Ice? Ice is a wonderful attacking type, so no doubt it is a very influential reason Blizzard is so common. The answer is not so clear-cut regarding the Pokémon however.

While Lapras and Cloyster both enjoy being Ice-types, this isn't the main reason they are used. If they were both pure Water-types, they would still be viable and their effectiveness wouldn't be shaken by much.
Jynx would seriously be injured if she were a pure Psychic-type, but the main reason she is used is Lovely Kiss, so I am guessing Ice wouldn't be that influential either, other than a weaker Blizzard.
Finally, Articuno completely relies on its Ice-typing to be viable, otherwise there's no reason to use it over any other Blizzard user. The thing is Articuno isn't very common to begin with.

Bottom line is, while Ice is a nice defensive typing, it doesn't give you anything that can't be obtained in other ways. Resistance to Ice attacks can be found in Water-types (the advantage of Ice-types not being weak to Electric is purely theoretical) and in generic special walls like Chansey, and the immunity to freeze, while great and unique, isn't as fundamental because freeze is unreliable.
The Ice typing is much more important offensively, both for the Pokémon that get it and for Blizzard/IB, but the thing is Ground beats Ice as an offensive type for the reasons I explained above.

 

[Mr.E]

You guys are right, the fact that Chansey is an "honorary Psychic" isn't a point for Psychic ... but it's just more evidence to putting Normal types at number 1.

I'd just as well argue it means the opposite, since we've all but agreed that Psychic typing is better than Normal at that point. Of course, Chansey being Normal still means it's a point for the Normals but we're mostly just arguing which mons are better. Being Psychic is just a point in favor of those mons. Most people here just like Chansey and Snorlax way more than I do, though, while I think they're solidly below the top three which for me consists of Eggy/Zam/Tauros. *shrug*

Thanks to Crystal_'s recent discovery about Normal-types being immune to Body Slam paralysis, this is no longer entirely true.

Not to say it isn't but that mostly only impacts Chansey's matchups with other Normals. It just sucks for Lapras. :( Incidentally, I think it rather clearly puts Snorlax way down the list considering the most useful thing it did in the past was be Chansey's best counter. I don't know how you people can still think it's a top 3-4 mon when it can't even do that consistently anymore.

 

[Ortheore]

2. How attacks of that type are important in the metagame.

Ground wins here. I would like to invite you all to make a thought experiment.
Imagine what would happen to the OU meta if Ice Beam and Blizzard didn't exist. Clearly Exeggutor, Victreebel, and Dragonite would become much much better, Chansey could no longer rely on freezing to beat other Chansey, and Starmie would probably see much less usage, seeing as it would only invite Exeggutor to switch in. Some match-ups would be screwed up (like Exeggutor vs. any Ice-type), but the metagame would still be recognizable.
Now imagine what would happen to the OU meta if EQ didn't exist. Suddenly Tauros would just become a Persian variant and Snorlax would have to rely on Psychic to be able to scratch Gengar in any significant way. The metagame would be turned completely upside down, with special attacks being much more central than they are in the real meta.

The point I'm trying to make is that while Ice attacks are awesome, freeze chance is a bee's sneeze, and all that stuff, Ground is part of the reason we even ranked Normal #1! How do you get more influential than that?

You're severely underrating Ice types and the importance of freezes, it's really commonplace for players to play in order to pick up a freeze, and over several turns, that 10% chance becomes hugely threatening. Ask yourself how effective Chansey/Jynx/Cloy/Lap/Star are if Ice type no longer exists- suddenly Cloy and Lap are scarcely viable at all, Jynx becomes a niche lead somewhere around the level of Hypno. Star and Chansey obviously get a lot worse, but they're still viable I guess. By comparison if Ground didn't exist, you lose GolDon, Gengar becomes good and electrics shit on everything and that's it. Pretty big, but it's highly questionable whether it beats out freeze, you're really overselling the buff to Gengar that would result from ground being non-existent

While Lapras and Cloyster both enjoy being Ice-types, this isn't the main reason they are used. If they were both pure Water-types, they would still be viable and their effectiveness wouldn't be shaken by much.
Jynx would seriously be injured if she were a pure Psychic-type, but the main reason she is used is Lovely Kiss, so I am guessing Ice wouldn't be that influential either, other than a weaker Blizzard.
Finally, Articuno completely relies on its Ice-typing to be viable, otherwise there's no reason to use it over any other Blizzard user. The thing is Articuno isn't very common to begin with.

Bottom line is, while Ice is a nice defensive typing, it doesn't give you anything that can't be obtained in other ways. Resistance to Ice attacks can be found in Water-types (the advantage of Ice-types not being weak to Electric is purely theoretical) and in generic special walls like Chansey, and the immunity to freeze, while great and unique, isn't as fundamental because freeze is unreliable.
The Ice typing is much more important offensively, both for the Pokémon that get it and for Blizzard/IB, but the thing is Ground beats Ice as an offensive type for the reasons I explained above.

I really really strongly disagree with much of this part. I don't know how you can look at Lap/Cloy and say that they can do without their Ice typing, when STAB Blizzard is one of the main reasons to use them at all. Immunity to freeze is not replaceable and plays a huge role in minimising your opponent's chances at a freeze. Offensively, Ice is arguably the most spammable attack in the game as it carries a 10% chance of breaking a game wide open, as well as packing a decent punch. By contrast EQ, apart from the being the main STAB on GolDon really only serves a purpose on other things as a means of hitting Gengar and getting around Counter.

In case it wasn't obvious Ice>>>>>>>>>>>>Ground imo

 

[Loudo]

Ask yourself how effective Chansey/Jynx/Cloy/Lap/Star are if Ice type no longer exists- suddenly Cloy and Lap are scarcely viable at all, Jynx becomes a niche lead somewhere around the level of Hypno. Star and Chansey obviously get a lot worse, but they're still viable I guess. By comparison if Ground didn't exist, you lose GolDon, Gengar becomes good and electrics shit on everything and that's it. Pretty big, but it's highly questionable whether it beats out freeze, you're really overselling the buff to Gengar that would result from ground being non-existent

How exactly do Cloyster and Lapras become scarsely viable? Both are still the only things that can safely switch on Tauros and Snorlax. Cloyster can still Clamp and Explode and Lapras can still threaten Chansey with parafusion. And STAB Hydro Pump / Surf is there for offense.
The only thing that really changes is that they now invite Grass-types to switch in. Like I said Exeggutor becomes much much scarier in an Ice-less environment. But it is already one of the best Pokémon out there.

By comparison Tauros (you know, the king of RBY) just dies without EQ and becomes a Persian variant. The whole reason Normal is #1 in our list is because you can't safely switch out, like you can with Alakazam.
And suddenly you have Zapdos and Jolteon ranking among the top Pokémon in the game, which by itself really makes Lapras and Cloyster much less viable.

Immunity to freeze is not replaceable and plays a huge role in minimising your opponent's chances at a freeze.

Which aren't really high to begin with. Chansey is the one to play the freeze war. Jynx too, arguably, because it's the only way she's getting past Chansey. For Lapras and Cloyster, it's more like nice extra.

Also, playing the freeze war has a huge opportunity cost. On average, paralysis will win you more battles than trying to freeze stuff, but you can't freeze if you paralyze stuff.

Offensively, Ice is arguably the most spammable attack in the game as it carries a 10% chance of breaking a game wide open, as well as packing a decent punch. By contrast EQ, apart from the being the main STAB on GolDon really only serves a purpose on other things as a means of hitting Gengar and getting around Counter.

So, you're basically saying that 10% freeze chance is more relevant than making Tauros a threat and Zapdos & Jolteon not a threat is every single game?

 

[Kel9901]

How exactly do Cloyster and Lapras become scarsely viable? Both are still the only things that can safely switch on Tauros and Snorlax. Cloyster can still Clamp and Explode and Lapras can still threaten Chansey with parafusion. And STAB Hydro Pump / Surf is there for offense.
The only thing that really changes is that they now invite Grass-types to switch in. Like I said Exeggutor becomes much much scarier in an Ice-less environment. But it is already one of the best Pokémon out there.

By comparison Tauros (you know, the king of RBY) just dies without EQ and becomes a Persian variant. The whole reason Normal is #1 in our list is because you can't safely switch out, like you can with Alakazam.
And suddenly you have Zapdos and Jolteon ranking among the top Pokémon in the game, which by itself really makes Lapras and Cloyster much less viable.


Which aren't really high to begin with. Chansey is the one to play the freeze war. Jynx too, arguably, because it's the only way she's getting past Chansey. For Lapras and Cloyster, it's more like nice extra.

Also, playing the freeze war has a huge opportunity cost. On average, paralysis will win you more battles than trying to freeze stuff, but you can't freeze if you paralyze stuff.


So, you're basically saying that 10% freeze chance is more relevant than making Tauros a threat and Zapdos & Jolteon not a threat is every single game?

I'm not sure if eq is really necessary for Tauros to be good/amazing. It's actually not as useful as you might be thinking; it hits gengar, and i suppose it hits both golem/rhydon and lapras if you think your opponent might chain switch/you don't know which your opponent will switch to, it hits jolteon a little harder and it hits counter jynx/chansey, and that's really about it. Certainly not that much more useful than blizzard, which hits golem/rhydon (which is huge) as well as finishing zapdos/egg with the right % hp left more safely than hyper beam

 

[Loudo]

I'm not sure if eq is really necessary for Tauros to be good/amazing.

It is, because without EQ Gengar becomes a free switch in, meaning Tauros threatens nothing as long as it is around. It doesn't become less effective, it becomes completely ineffective. We'd be all treating Tauros as we treat Zapdos now: "Oh, Tauros is quite a good Pokémon once you remove Gengar from the equation."
I mean, it is the whole reason EQ Snorlax is more common than Surf Snorlax, and Surf Snorlax is only viable because EQ exists.

 

[Omanyte]

Gen 1:

1) Normal: I think this is an obvious choice. Only resisted by Rocks (easily to get around as Normal generally have a varied movepool) and Ghosts (ditto). STAB Body Slam, Hyper Beam and Explosion are insane assets. On the defensive side a weakness to fighting is not a threat at all.

2) Ice: It was close between Ice and Psychic, but I think that Ice is the better type, even if it doesn't have the better pokemon. STAB Blizzard is arguably the best attack in the game, and Ice Beam is great as well. The ability to hit all Ground and Grass for x2 is useful, whilst weaknesses to Fire and Rock are not particularly significant.

3) Psychic: Psychic is a more defensive type. STAB psychic is nice when combined with the special fall, but your opponent will likely have a choice of psychics to absorb it. Chansey can also PP stall or switch around pretty easily, which is harder (in theory at least) against Ice pokemon due to the chance of a freeze.

4) Ghost: No decent STAB, but come on! No weakness and immunity to the most used type in the game? It's got to be up there.

5) Grass: The fact that Mega Drain (a poor attack) is considered OU is enough of a reason. Resistance to Ground and Electric attacks is nice, Razor Leaf is beast and hitting popular Water and Ground pokemon is sweet. It's only really the weakness to Ice, second typing of a few pokemon and lack to Razor Leaf on some pokes that hold it back.

6) Electric: Hits Water and flying types, and combines well with Ice, the problems with Ground types hurt it a lot. Electrics tend to have weak movepools though.

7) Ground: Earthquake is a pretty great attack, although a few flying types can exploit it. The ability to destroy Electrics and Gengar is nice.

8) Rock: Rock Slide is pretty meh, and is only useful in a handful of (admittedly notable) cases. The ability to absorb Hyper Beams and Explosions is excellent though.

9) Water: It's basically outclassed by Ice. Additional weakness to Electric and lack of ability to freeze kinda sucks, but it's a stable type that generally does its job.

10) Flying: On the offensive it generally acts a slightly improved version of Normal, gaining the ability to hit ghosts and SE against Grass for resistance from Electric pokes. The lack of good moves, and poor movepool distribution (e.g. No Drill Peck and Dragonite/Articuno) hurt it, as does the weakness to both Electric and Ice.

10) Dragon: The lack of STAB and weakness to Ice hurt it a lot, but otherwise it's pretty solid. Only one weakness and resistance to Electric (and Water/Grass) is useful.

 

[Kel9901]

It is, because without EQ Gengar becomes a free switch in, meaning Tauros threatens nothing as long as it is around. It doesn't become less effective, it becomes completely ineffective. We'd be all treating Tauros as we treat Zapdos now: "Oh, Tauros is quite a good Pokémon once you remove Gengar from the equation."
I mean, it is the whole reason EQ Snorlax is more common than Surf Snorlax, and Surf Snorlax is only viable because EQ exists.

Yes, but Gengar is often used to absorb sleep so it's not really that big of a threat (you can always switch out), if it doesn't absorb sleep it would have probably exploded by the time Tauros comes out and Gengar isn't really used all that much (definitely less than golem/rhydon). Gengar is also very easy to switch in to; rocks, egg, chansey, alakazam all do a good job.

It would certainly still be better than zapdos, who is hard-walled by pokemon that actually hit quite hard

 

[Loudo]

I do not respond of people using Gengar poorly. And I feel like you are forgetting I was talking about theorizing that EQ didn't exist. Big part of the reason Gengar isn't used all that much (where "not all that much", according to the stats Isa linked, means on 19% of all teams) is that EQ exists.
Alakazam and Chansey can switch in on Gengar if you don't fear an Explosion, but they are not exactly all that threatening themselves. Neutralizing Tauros for a free Alakazam switch in? Where do I sign? (Also I think arguing that Gengar is a common sleep absorber and then assuming Alakazam is awake is a little hypocritical.)
Rocks and Exeggutor would take NS damage, which they wouldn't necessarily enjoy.

Anyway: Confuse Ray. If you are worried about Gengar's switch-ins, you can turn those situations in 50-50s (CR on the switch, then safely switch out 50% of the times). I'd still be facing a confused Exeggutor over EQ Tauros any day of the week.


Aren't we getting side tracked?

 

[Kel9901]

Aren't we getting side tracked?

Probably yeah, I'll just say that I'd put Ice 3 and Ground 4, even though I really like the rock/grounds because ice attacks are really important to a) stop egg (and rocks in the former case) freely switching in chansey/starmie and b) to fish for freezes, as well as coverage for tauros

Anyway: Confuse Ray. If you are worried about Gengar's switch-ins, you can turn those situations in 50-50s (CR on the switch, then safely switch out 50% of the times). I'd still be facing a confused Exeggutor over EQ Tauros any day of the week.

Wouldn't it be better, if you predict egg coming in, to just simply double switch to whatever you would be switching in to it? Then you have a 100% chance of not taking a psychic/whatever on the switch, rather than a 50%

 

[Golden Gyarados]

Probably yeah, I'll just say that I'd put Ice 3 and Ground 4, even though I really like the rock/grounds because ice attacks are really important to a) stop egg (and rocks in the former case) freely switching in chansey/starmie and b) to fish for freezes, as well as coverage for tauros

Ice types can't freely switch into Chansey and Starmie because both (usually) run Thunderbolt, and every Ice but Jynx is part Water. They can chain switch if you predict right, but you usually won't keep an Ice type in against Starmie, and even Lapras doesn't like Chansey now that Body Slam can't paralyze.

My bad, I totally misread this :)

 

[Golden Gyarados]

Also, if Toxic and Thunder Wave don't "count" because they're good no matter what type is using the move, shouldn't Freeze status be in the same boat? Folks have mentioned how the Freeze chance of Ice moves makes them #3 material, but the freeze chance exists whether Jynx is using the move, or a Chansey. STAB and Special stats should definitely be part of the conversation, but if we're going to say that Toxic isn't a point for Poison because anyone can use Toxic to inflict status, and T-Wave isn't a point for Electrics since anyone can use the move to inflict the status, then we should also say Freezing isn't a point for Ice types, since any type can inflict the status, right?

 

[Disaster Area]

Ice types can't freely switch into Chansey and Starmie because both (usually) run Thunderbolt, and every Ice but Jynx is part Water. They can chain switch if you predict right, but you usually won't keep an Ice type in against Starmie, and even Lapras doesn't like Chansey now that Body Slam can't paralyze.

I think you misinterpreted what he said. He meant that chansey and starmie's ice type attacks stop exeggutor coming in for free

Also, if Toxic and Thunder Wave don't "count" because they're good no matter what type is using the move, shouldn't Freeze status be in the same boat? Folks have mentioned how the Freeze chance of Ice moves makes them #3 material, but the freeze chance exists whether Jynx is using the move, or a Chansey. STAB and Special stats should definitely be part of the conversation, but if we're going to say that Toxic isn't a point for Poison because anyone can use Toxic to inflict status, and T-Wave isn't a point for Electrics since anyone can use the move to inflict the status, then we should also say Freezing isn't a point for Ice types, since any type can inflict the status, right?

It's more the fact that ice types are immune to all moves that can freeze that's the boon, and also ice moves having the potential to freeze whereas no other moves can also counts towards this. Ignoring that would be like ignoring body slam's paralysis chance in this instance, rather than ignore twave and toxic.

 

[Crystal_]

Type: Bird / Normal

/thread

 

[xfix]

Type: Bird / Normal

/thread

How could I have forgotten about Bird type, very important type in the metagame, probably more than Normal. As an offensive type, Bird is bad by having no moves (like Dragon). As a defensive type, it's also quite bad, by having no resistances. However... it absolutely shines in support role. It's just amazing support type.

MissingNo. (or 'M (00), it has the same neat #000 Pokedex number) is relevant in OU by cloning all those useful TMs, Rare Candies, Vitamins, and most importantly - PP Ups (there are only 6 in game, after all, so you need either lots of games or use item cloning ability of relevant Bird type Pokémon).

(by the way, IMO Water is not as great as Ice or Ground, because defensively it's just slightly better than average (that Electric weakness), and offensively it's bad... )

 

[froggy25]

Having 0 base Attack and 6 base Special makes it difficult for poor MissingNo :(