Because both Pokemon have a reliable way of healing, and will always be at 100% health, right?
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The De-Uberization.
- Thread starter Lyfsaho
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Because both Pokemon have a reliable way of healing, and will always be at 100% health, right?
Not a counter as its a rarity to be seen? ROFL. A counter is a counter, regardless of its popularity. If using the counter overcentralizes the metagame, now that is another question. Lets look at Tentacruel :
Tenta@Leftovers
- Toxic Spikes
- Rapid Spin / Knock off
- Surf
- Mirror Coat
Now, what the hell is wrong with this set? Still counters Mixape, Knock off and Rapid Spin are illegal on the same set anyhow, so you can't choose both. I run Mirror Coat on Tenta, and it's served me well on a number of occasions.
Also, Mantine can run Mirror Coat fairy well, and is also a viable counter. The problem with it is, its UU... but then again, so was Tentacruel before Mixape countering came up.
Don't go discounting counters because they're not popular.
No, but close to it, especially as you are assuming 3 Tail Glows from Manaphy, which automatically means 18% leftovers recovery on its own.
328 attack vs 226 defense, 95 power(*1.5 *1.3), 322 max HP: 59.94% - 70.81%
By no means in hell a counter.
Funny you should mention that, as Mirror Coat is illegal with Rapid Spin (only Corsola and Lileep get Mirror Coat, and obviously neither can spin).
EDIT: And Knock Off, before you jump toward that. And haha, you can have both Confuse Ray AND Mirror Coat together. Oh the insanity.
EDIT: And Knock Off, before you jump toward that. And haha, you can have both Confuse Ray AND Mirror Coat together. Oh the insanity.
I wouldn't underestimate how Manaphy can switch in if it was the RainRest we were talking about but we're talking about the Tail Glow sweeper which has it's ev's focused in offense.
It has to be weary of switching into Swampert who can EQ it. Milotic who can Put it to sleep. Starmie as you mentioned if it has thunderbolt. CMCune/Bro who can threaten it with HP electric. I don't see many free switch in's on these pokemon, If Manaphy tries to attack one of this pokemon with grassknot/energyball it's hp goes down even more if holding life orb.
I wouldn't dare switch this Manaphy set into Infernape who iirc runs Close Combat which can wear Manaphy down even futher if it comes in on it.
Milotic is hampered by Sleep Clause. Swampert... yeah EQ could put you in harm, but Energy Ball OHKOs anyways. CMBro is kind of rare, but usually they have Surf / Ice Beam. CMCune has Roar, Surf, Sleep Talk, Rest... it has a lot of options before he probably touches Hidden Power Electric.
Calculate correctly dude, please. My calculations are correct. First off, standard Manaphy is timid, which you didnt consider. Secondly, standard CMkou gets 64 hp ev's and 96 sp.def ev's. Recalculate.
Raikou is a Manaphy counter, I don't see the issue here.
This post is uber fail.
a) the first 50% of your sentence were extremely correct. not so the second part. my calculations are not wrong.
See, THATS more like it. I did not realize that, so it was a good counter. But still, way to go, no Knock Off / Spin. Regular Tenta's can only do one of those anyway, and its main functions are still to Toxic Spikes and to counter Mixape, both of which a Mirror Coat set still manages to do.
Do you really think if Manaphy was unbanned that people wouldn't adapt their pokemon set's to accommodate it? HP Electric on Cune and Bro is used to stop Gyarados from walking all over them.
If Manaphy could run a sucessful offensive and defensive spread at the same time, I'd have no problem with it being banned now but it can't. Each variation of Manaphy has counters and people are really overrating a pokemon with 100/100/100 base stats if the pokemon in question does not have ev's focused in such defenses.
Simple. I am going to run a Modest Raikou (which alot of people will anyway if Manaphy gets OU'd, since it still outspeeds Timid Manaphy), max out its sp.atk, and have a 70% chance of an OHKO.
Raikou is not a counter.
The 31st Pharao of Egypt died 1255 b.c.
Raikou is still not a counter to Manaphy.
One last time, since you don't seem to be getting the point.
A counter has to be able to switch in and pose an immediate threat to the pokemon that its countering.
You bring stadard Manaphy in. I switch my current pokemon out, bringing standard CMKou in.
Say you Tail Glowed on my switch. Now, I will Calm Mind, and then you will attack me with Surf. You will do 61.13% - 72.11% damage.
Next turn, I Thunderbolt, you die.
Period.
Oh, and there's always this version.
Standard Manaphy, I switch in modest max sp.atk Raikou while you Tail Glow.
I attack with Thunderbolt, you have a 70% chance of dying. If SR or Sandstorm or Spikes or Hail is active, you will die 100% of the time.
If you manage to survive, you will hit me, and die from Life Orb recoil.
Once again- Period.
Hello lyfsaho, you seem to be operating under the presumption that the manaphy user has downs syndrome. No good or even semi-decent battler is going to start out by statting up. Instead they'll first attack to see what the opponents counter is and then proceed accordingly. So here is a more accurate model:
I switch in manaphy and surf to test the waters
You switch raikou in and eat a surf for ~60%
I switch out since I used my brain and realized that raikou is faster and his thunderbolt will do a lot of damage.
Now the next time I bring in manaphy, raikou is no longer a safe switch-in and thus not a counter.
I switch in manaphy and surf to test the waters
You switch raikou in and eat a surf for ~60%
I switch out since I used my brain and realized that raikou is faster and his thunderbolt will do a lot of damage.
Now the next time I bring in manaphy, raikou is no longer a safe switch-in and thus not a counter.
Or, I Surf as you switch in. Switch out like any competent person would see. Then next time kill it.
Because if Raikou is your defintion of a counter, then that means I can slap Focus Sash on anything faster than any given Poke, and claim it is a counter cause i'll survive once.
But then again what the fuck do I know about battling.
Because if Raikou is your defintion of a counter, then that means I can slap Focus Sash on anything faster than any given Poke, and claim it is a counter cause i'll survive once.
But then again what the fuck do I know about battling.
^This is right. Even if Raikou can switch in and has a chance of beating manaphy, a "counter" who takes 60 percent on every switch in is not really a counter.
You guys are insane. According to you, to be a counter, you have to be able to take STAB, +2 Attacks not only once, but multiple times(Lexx).
If Raikou isn't a counter to Manaphy, then Cress isn't a counter to Garchomp seeing as Cress takes minimum 64% from Swords Danced Outrage(that's 252 HP/200 Defense). With that spread, Cress doesn't even come close to OHKOing Garchomp(falling around 70 Sp. Attack points short).
The next person to say that Raikou isn't a Manaphy counter is also saying that Cress isn't a Garchomp counter.
Plus, Raikou is hardly the only counter to Manaphy. If Manaphy carries Surf/Energy Ball it gets walled by Dragons, Tentacruel, and Grasses. If it carries Surf/Ice Beam it gets walled by all waters. Bliss can take any set that isn't running Rest/Rain Dance.
Edit: Holy Crap people. A Modest Manaphy does MAXIMUM 46% to a Calmkou with no Calm Minds. Loki, you're just blowing crap out of your ass. The definition of a counter is it's able to switch in, take a hit(Raikou can take 2, even though it's faster and doesn't need to), and kill/cripple/force to switch. Also, Giving Calmkou a free turn to Sub/Calm Mind is a bad idea. Unless you have Blissey, T-tar, or Swampert, you're in big trouble.
If Raikou isn't a counter to Manaphy, then Cress isn't a counter to Garchomp seeing as Cress takes minimum 64% from Swords Danced Outrage(that's 252 HP/200 Defense). With that spread, Cress doesn't even come close to OHKOing Garchomp(falling around 70 Sp. Attack points short).
The next person to say that Raikou isn't a Manaphy counter is also saying that Cress isn't a Garchomp counter.
Plus, Raikou is hardly the only counter to Manaphy. If Manaphy carries Surf/Energy Ball it gets walled by Dragons, Tentacruel, and Grasses. If it carries Surf/Ice Beam it gets walled by all waters. Bliss can take any set that isn't running Rest/Rain Dance.
Edit: Holy Crap people. A Modest Manaphy does MAXIMUM 46% to a Calmkou with no Calm Minds. Loki, you're just blowing crap out of your ass. The definition of a counter is it's able to switch in, take a hit(Raikou can take 2, even though it's faster and doesn't need to), and kill/cripple/force to switch. Also, Giving Calmkou a free turn to Sub/Calm Mind is a bad idea. Unless you have Blissey, T-tar, or Swampert, you're in big trouble.
For your information, my friend, Timid max sp.atk Manaphy with Life Orb does 45.99% - 54.30% damage to standard CM Raikou with a Surf. Say you do the maximal damage, 54%, and I heal off 6% at the end of the turn with lefties, leaving me at 48%. Next turn, while you switch out, I calm mind at get another 6% back, leaving me at 42% damage taken.
Uhm... You were saying?
Even if your argument had a bit of an stronger point, it would be irrelevant; as Dragontamer has stated on here before, a counter is something able to switch in and pose an immediate threat to his opponent's pokemon. If he can do this unlimited times is of no relevance here. I could just as well be having a Vaporeon on my team to pass Raikou a wish after he's countered Manaphy.
edit: Jesus CHRIST, Football Fanatic above me here is the only person thinking. To the three... members... above him, THINK BEFORE FUCKING POSTING.
1) It is irrelevant for a counter to take damage while countering and not being able to do it multiple times: Its still a counter. look up the defintion.
2) point number 1) doesnt even apply to our sitation - refer to my damage calculation above. Raikou takes 60% from Surf on the switchin? JEsus. HE takes fucking 45.99% - 54.30%
3) RAIKOU IS A PERFECTLY VIABLE MANAPHY COUNTER. GET USED TO IT.
Then by your example, you are right. Cresselia is NOT a Garchomp counter.
HOWEVER, if it was any other standard Garchomp, that being of CS, or SD+DC, or ChainChomp, then Cresselia is a counter. Meaning Cresselia is indeed a counter to any normal, standard set. But then again, Garchomp is a horrible example, because after it has Outraged, it is now countered by pretty much any Steel type.
Also, who are you to say what the standard spreads are. No one even uses Raikou and afaik, anyone who actually does simply 252/252, to which case a Manaphy Surf would do from Life Orb:
299 attack vs 226 defense, 95 power(*1.5 *1.3), 322 max HP: 54.97% - 64.6%
HOWEVER, if it was any other standard Garchomp, that being of CS, or SD+DC, or ChainChomp, then Cresselia is a counter. Meaning Cresselia is indeed a counter to any normal, standard set. But then again, Garchomp is a horrible example, because after it has Outraged, it is now countered by pretty much any Steel type.
Also, who are you to say what the standard spreads are. No one even uses Raikou and afaik, anyone who actually does simply 252/252, to which case a Manaphy Surf would do from Life Orb:
299 attack vs 226 defense, 95 power(*1.5 *1.3), 322 max HP: 54.97% - 64.6%
By definition, and DEFINITION only, Raikou is a counter, which I agreed on with Dragontamer. But calling him a "true" counter to Manaphy is ridiculous. Obviously you aren't going to survive two Surfs and once a Manaphy user sees that you have a Raikou, he'll be prepared and use Surf instead. Well, looks like you lost a valuable sweeper just as a last-ditch effort.
Footballfanatic, have you ALSO forgotten that Cresselia learns Reflect? The first moveset has Reflect in it anyways, don't drift off. That's why we use Modest, to gain that lost Special Attack.
Once again Lyfsaho, you did it wrong. You have yours with one Calm Mind. Without any its 45.99% - 54.30%.
I'm going to look up the old Manaphy article to settle the EV spread issue.
EDIT: Didn't help really. It's just like the other one in the Analysis. Except the sweeper had Substitute as an option for move #4. >_>;
Footballfanatic, have you ALSO forgotten that Cresselia learns Reflect? The first moveset has Reflect in it anyways, don't drift off. That's why we use Modest, to gain that lost Special Attack.
Once again Lyfsaho, you did it wrong. You have yours with one Calm Mind. Without any its 45.99% - 54.30%.
I'm going to look up the old Manaphy article to settle the EV spread issue.
EDIT: Didn't help really. It's just like the other one in the Analysis. Except the sweeper had Substitute as an option for move #4. >_>;
Oh, now no one ever uses Raikou. Just ridiculous man, you've been proven wrong, Raikou is a Manaphy counter, now give it up.
If you want the standard Raikou set, by all means:
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/raikou
theeeere you go.
I guess you would go 252/252, but most good battlers don't, ya know.
edit @ Colonel: I changed that 2 minutes after when I edited it. doesn't make the slightest difference. you've missed the point. 2 Surfs from standard Manaphy still never 2KO standard Raikou. period. And this is just for the sake of it - its been proven Raikou is a counter. period.
A jolly life orb manaphy with 252 evs in special attack against the raikou with the EVs in the smogon analysis: Damage: 45.99% - 54.30% , not quite 60% got a solid 2hko most of the time
You assumed that you had already use calm mind. How about you "THINK BEFORE YOU FUCKING POST" as you so eloquently said and not assume that raikou gets a free calm mind when he switches in. Also the smogon definition of a counter is pretty loose and should not be taken verbatim. Like the Lexx said scarfgar is a dd gyarados counter with dragontamer's logic.
You assumed that you had already use calm mind. How about you "THINK BEFORE YOU FUCKING POST" as you so eloquently said and not assume that raikou gets a free calm mind when he switches in. Also the smogon definition of a counter is pretty loose and should not be taken verbatim. Like the Lexx said scarfgar is a dd gyarados counter with dragontamer's logic.
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