Um, you do realize that I helped out with the analysises and consult with the majority of the people who actually did post them, right?
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The De-Uberization.
- Thread starter Lyfsaho
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I can't believe that we're actually having this arguement. "By definition, and DEFINITION only, Raikou is a counter." Do you even know what you're saying? So something can be the definition of a counter and not actually a counter? Pass that shit man, I need to take a hit. I based the Garchomp example off my own Cress which is my Garchomp counter. Have you forgotten that Raikou learns Calm Mind and outspeeds Manaphy.
@Aeroblacktyl I didn't make the set, Smogon did: http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/raikou
Anybody who just maxes Speed/Sp. Attack doesn't know what they're doing and I don't know why you would try to reference something a novice battler would do to support your arguement.
@Aeroblacktyl I didn't make the set, Smogon did: http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/raikou
Anybody who just maxes Speed/Sp. Attack doesn't know what they're doing and I don't know why you would try to reference something a novice battler would do to support your arguement.
Again do any of you realize with the fact that I help out with the analysis for fucking sakes. Being a former mod here, you actually had to contribute something to the site, which is much more than I can say for others at the moment
Not to mention, your logic is still flawed, so what Raikou learns Calm Mind? It doesn't switch in with a CM under it's belt. It's switching into a Surf. Then the next time it wants to pull that shit, it's going to f'ing die.
Not to mention, your logic is still flawed, so what Raikou learns Calm Mind? It doesn't switch in with a CM under it's belt. It's switching into a Surf. Then the next time it wants to pull that shit, it's going to f'ing die.
assumed... what? erm..? no. actually read my post.
For the sake of completion, again (its already been established that he's a counter) - 45.99%-54.30% has a infinitesmal chance, i.e ALMOST NEVER is, a 2KO, since Raikou is holding leftovers. but as I said, its irrelevant anyhow.
Have you also forgotten what a counter ACTUALLY MEANS!?! Can he switch in is obviously yes (if he has no Tail Glows, REMEMBER?). Yes, it can be applied like how you said. May though Celebi can rip through Tyranitar with Grass Knot, can you not agree that CB Pursuit and Crunch will still force Celebi to switch? Yes. It's like that.
Uh, if Tyranitar is switching into Celebi as it's Grass Knoting, it will in fact, lose.
Holy shit dude. 54% MAXIMUM is nowhere near a "solid 2hko most of the time" You need to do 53% MINIMUM to guarantee a 2HKO.
Holy shit again. The only reason I mentioned Calm Mind was because the other guy mentioned Reflect on Cresselia.
I can't believe people are still arguing this. I'd expect this from the other poke board I post on, but not this one.
Damnit.
Alright, what I meant to say was the other way around. Celebi could POSSIBLY switch into Tyranitar, survive, and threaten it with Grass Knot, but obviously cannot win since they both suffer a 2HKO from Crunch (Tyranitar) or Grass Knot (Celebi).
How I mean to apply it to as Raikou can be defined as a counter is like so: Raikou can switch in, correct? We all agree on that it can survive a Life Orb Surf, obviously. HOWEVER, how many times can he do that? Lexx I think hit the nail a bit better than I attempted to. Taking over 60% is still taking over 60%, that's still going to leave a mark. Stealth Rock can easily turn it into a 2HKO if you switch in twice on the two Surfs. Gengar can switch into Waterfall from Gyarados and obviously use Thunderbolt, but Gengar can't switch into Waterfall twice. It's... sort of like that. Rough explanaition, but I tried. >_>;
Alright, what I meant to say was the other way around. Celebi could POSSIBLY switch into Tyranitar, survive, and threaten it with Grass Knot, but obviously cannot win since they both suffer a 2HKO from Crunch (Tyranitar) or Grass Knot (Celebi).
How I mean to apply it to as Raikou can be defined as a counter is like so: Raikou can switch in, correct? We all agree on that it can survive a Life Orb Surf, obviously. HOWEVER, how many times can he do that? Lexx I think hit the nail a bit better than I attempted to. Taking over 60% is still taking over 60%, that's still going to leave a mark. Stealth Rock can easily turn it into a 2HKO if you switch in twice on the two Surfs. Gengar can switch into Waterfall from Gyarados and obviously use Thunderbolt, but Gengar can't switch into Waterfall twice. It's... sort of like that. Rough explanaition, but I tried. >_>;
In case you aren't aware, that goes for both sides.
Standard CMKou deals 75.07% - 88.27% to standard Manaphy with an unboosed Thunderbolt. Take SR and Sandstorm activity (-18%) and that has a good chance of an OHKO. And even if it doesn't, you will die from Life Orb recoil anyhow.
What does that have to do because a competent user doesn't leave Manaphy in?
It's late, and I've grown tired of your unwillingness to accept arguments which by far surpass your own, and your assumptions that you're more experienced than whoever you're facing in a discussion.
One last time, so we get this even through your head.
STANDARD MANAPHY with LO DOES 45.99% - 54.30% WITH A SURF TO STANDARD CMKOU. CMKOU RECOVERS 6% FROM LEFTOVERS. IN THE ABSOLUTE WORST CASE SCENARIO, THAT LEAVES IT WITH 52.30% health. THE CHANCES OF THE SECOND HIT ALSO BEING AT LEAST 52.30% HEALTH ARE MIND-BLOWINGLY LOW. JESUS CHRIST.
And my other post was directed at your frail attempt to argue that Sandstorm, SR, and Spikes make a difference - yes, they do, but for BOTH SIDES. With active SR or Sandstorm, Raikou has an almost certain chance of OHKO'ing Manaphy with a singe un-boosted T-Bolt BEFORE MANAPHY EVEN GETS TO ATTEMPT A 2KO.
Raikou is a clear textbook Manaphy counter. Have a good night.
did not read a post in this thread but i will say that manaphy, mew and dx-d are very, very unlikely to be tested, and lati@s will likely be tested and wobbuffet will definitely be tested. our administration is working with colin to test these on the ladder while competitor is finished up, and should competitor be completed sooner rathre than later we will test them there
i guess i'll skim this thread now but i will probably not like several posts in it for the same reason most uber/tier threads have been locked since 2005
i guess i'll skim this thread now but i will probably not like several posts in it for the same reason most uber/tier threads have been locked since 2005
I didn't even agree with my last post. Attempted to edit it but then the forums wanted to think different.
What Lexx said was what I meant in my statement. By defenition, Gengar can switch into a Waterfall or even Dragon Dance from Gyarados, correct? But ask yourself this, how many times can he do this? Obviously not more than once. By defenition, Raikou can counter Manaphy, but how many times can Raikou switch into Manaphy Surfs? Not many, right? At the most is 3, minimum is 2. It doesn't require a shitload of thought for that. He can be used as a last ditch effort, but it's not actually going to do much if Manaphy can switch out, right? Just threaten him off, and even so Raikou could be left with a scar on him if he comes in on Surf.
What Lexx said was what I meant in my statement. By defenition, Gengar can switch into a Waterfall or even Dragon Dance from Gyarados, correct? But ask yourself this, how many times can he do this? Obviously not more than once. By defenition, Raikou can counter Manaphy, but how many times can Raikou switch into Manaphy Surfs? Not many, right? At the most is 3, minimum is 2. It doesn't require a shitload of thought for that. He can be used as a last ditch effort, but it's not actually going to do much if Manaphy can switch out, right? Just threaten him off, and even so Raikou could be left with a scar on him if he comes in on Surf.
Why would Manaphy ever consider staying in on Thunderbolt? At all? The fact is, even with minimum damage, Stealth Rock/Spikes/WHATEVER WILL turn Surf into a 2HKO almost all of the time.
Manaphy hits Raikou with Surf. It takes 46-54 damage AND passive damage. The second time this happens, RAIKOU DIES. RAIKOU IS NOT A COUNTER.
With these counters at hand, I don't see it as overcentralizing the OU metagame so why should it be uber? The only way to know for sure is to test it. Although Manaphy was previously tested; it was at a time when the metagame was still growing and changing at a rapid pace. Now the the metagame is established I believe that people will be better equipped to handle Manaphy and won't be as overwhelming.
Think back to the Garchomp theorycraft when people thought it was an unbeatable monster, so much so that they thought it was uber, if we just went along with that theorycraft Garchomp would have never been tested in OU and banned right of that bat.
The only reason why Manaphy deserves to be retested is that the results seem to be inconsistent when it comes to "Is Manaphy really to powerful for OU". Like I said before this can all be settled with another testing period (and I'd expect this would be the last one to determine whether or not Manaphy is uber).
My friend, as my final advice to you, here goes.
A) Go inform yourself on the pokemon basics. I'd particularly recommend reading the definition of a "counter" over, and over, and over again.
B) Leave the discussing to knowledgeable people who can not only contribute, but also accept counter-arguments well.
C) have a nice day.
I find it funny how Lyfsaho and football are arguing with one of the most stubborn, yet most experienced and best battlers on Smogon.
Honastly, I would give up now, because you're not going to beat MoP. I'm going to take a gander here, and guess that he has a tad more experience than either of you when it comes to pokemon. He also knows what he's talking about.
That being said, Raikou may be a counter on paper, but the actual fact is, Raikou will not stop Manaphy. It will force a switch once, after that Raikou can no longer come in safely, especially if you use Substitute at any time during the battle. Considering the standard Raikou that you keep referring to runs Substitute, I'm going to guess that you will be using it at some point to scout what's coming into you.
Also, when you say "Smogon made the set", you are in fact, referring to people like Surgo, Misty, Aeolus, Hipmonlee, and, oh wait, MoP (aka, Aeroblacktyl in case you havn't figured that out yet)
Honastly, I would give up now, because you're not going to beat MoP. I'm going to take a gander here, and guess that he has a tad more experience than either of you when it comes to pokemon. He also knows what he's talking about.
That being said, Raikou may be a counter on paper, but the actual fact is, Raikou will not stop Manaphy. It will force a switch once, after that Raikou can no longer come in safely, especially if you use Substitute at any time during the battle. Considering the standard Raikou that you keep referring to runs Substitute, I'm going to guess that you will be using it at some point to scout what's coming into you.
Also, when you say "Smogon made the set", you are in fact, referring to people like Surgo, Misty, Aeolus, Hipmonlee, and, oh wait, MoP (aka, Aeroblacktyl in case you havn't figured that out yet)
I don't recall any mods calling for Garchomp to be Uber at all. The only ones that ever had a shred of "possible Uber status" were T-Tar and Blissey (not by the mods of course, but by the constant onslaught of n00bs asking for the banning of T-tar and Blissey). Garchomp was hailed as a strong OU pokemon, but no one ever asked it to be banned on the scale of Blissey / T-Tar.
Rhyperior, theorycraft failed. Tentacruel, theorycraft failed.
Garchomp however, theorycraft got dead on. A top-tier OU pokemon.
Uh, but the fact was the OLD STANDARD didn't have Rest in it? It actually was what I posted a while back: Tail Glow / Surf / Ice Beam / Energy Ball (some used Grass Knot over Energy Ball). I've already named the most obvious choice for a decent counter: Blissey and if we want to go to extremes Ludicolo, but Ludicolo has to watch out for Tail Glow obviously.
I do get your point Evolutia, but it's been tested once and already hailed as Uber. It could be a nightmare if he's allowed in OU again if the Manaphy player uses him right. Even RainRest is scary without the infinite rain.
I do get your point Evolutia, but it's been tested once and already hailed as Uber. It could be a nightmare if he's allowed in OU again if the Manaphy player uses him right. Even RainRest is scary without the infinite rain.
Please stop acting like Manaphy will stay in to get hit by Raikou. With spikes of any form, leftovers would be negated plus more. If it's only a single layer of spikes, and no sandstorm/hail, averages say Raikou will take about 50% damage by the time the turn ends that he switched in.
Manaphy will now switch out, while Raikou does whatever. Raikou will now likely switch out, as it's assumed that Manaphy would switch into some form of Raikou counter.
Raikou now leaves play at approximately 56% health. Later on, Manaphy comes in again. Raikou comes in to counter, taking the minimum 6.25% damage from a single layer of spikes, and then the surf damage, which again averages out to about 50%. This kills him.
While this isn't a guaranteed 2HKO, it's a good 50% chance with a single layer of spikes, not even counting a 2nd or 3rd layer, Stealth Rock, Sandstream, Hail, or Rain Dance. There is no Tail Glow activated, just base line attacks.
What Colonel M, The Lexx and Aeroblacktyl have been saying, is that whilst Raikou can certainly switch in and take ONE Surf, an intelligent Player will realize the threat, that Manaphy is under and switch out.
Your Damage Calcs.
Raikou has no form of recovery, besides Leftovers recovery and will most like not be able to take a second hit, when Manaphy rears it's head next time. The second time, Manaphy gets in, Raikou will on 52.30%+ HP. From, however many turns, you let it in to recover (a decision, somewhat made by both players). Now, with Stealth Rock and spikes, the HP of Kou is looking even lower, allowing Manaphy's 45.99% - 54.30% Surf to KO it, the next time it switches in.
So, thus, Raikou cannot be considered a true "counter" as it cannot reliably repel a Manaphy. You're thinking along the lines of "Starmie can coutner Gyarados", but this only so, as it can recover off damage from Gyara's prior assaults, do it's job by switching in and threatening with Thunderbolt, then proceed to recover off the damage it took when switching in.
Your Damage Calcs.
Raikou has no form of recovery, besides Leftovers recovery and will most like not be able to take a second hit, when Manaphy rears it's head next time. The second time, Manaphy gets in, Raikou will on 52.30%+ HP. From, however many turns, you let it in to recover (a decision, somewhat made by both players). Now, with Stealth Rock and spikes, the HP of Kou is looking even lower, allowing Manaphy's 45.99% - 54.30% Surf to KO it, the next time it switches in.
So, thus, Raikou cannot be considered a true "counter" as it cannot reliably repel a Manaphy. You're thinking along the lines of "Starmie can coutner Gyarados", but this only so, as it can recover off damage from Gyara's prior assaults, do it's job by switching in and threatening with Thunderbolt, then proceed to recover off the damage it took when switching in.
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