Other The effectiveness of Baton Pass teams after the nerf

[Arcanine is Regal]

So, let me start by expressing my disappointment with the results of the last suspect test. First of all we waited way too long, as baton pass teams ran rampant on the ladder ruining the experience. Then it finally came around, but people didn't understand that the baton pass team, is just smeargle/scolipede/espeon, the rest of the players were extra redundancies in order to stop some particular counters. ie zapdos for pinsir and talon, mr mime for sound moves like roar or perish song, and sylveon for dragon moves.

So far I only have one example to show

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-131835960(btw the opponent had a counter to baton pass, in taunt talonflame which used to be a pretty solid counter) Just proving that now we still need weird counters but the teams are more unpredictable and preparing for all of them will be impossible

but trust me there are teams out there that are unhindered by the baton pass "nerf". All that is happening now is baton pass teams can function even when the chain is broken. They just replaced 3 pokes that can deal with the same counters the previous 3 mentioned above handled. The main problem is scolipede and espeon, unfortunately not enough people understood that being able to simultaneously boost defense and speed and then pass with insane ease was broken. Its not just that, its the fact that in two turns espeon can be at +4 defense and +2 speed, with the ability to boost its special stats, and is unable to get statused or phased...honestly even nerfing baton pass to 2 pokes a team would not have helped.

Obviously this is just my take on things, i wont say my opinion because the fact is, it is still very easy to abuse baton pass teams on the ladder, and teambuilding will still require dedicated and obscure checks/counters to baton pass.

I would go into calcs of how scolipede can eat up choice band brave bird from talonflame at +2, but I think I will just open it up to you guys, Im interested because option 2 won with a convincing lead, and I am just wondering if you are pleased with it or not. So please discuss baton pass in its current state and whether or not you feel it is still broken, please give explicit well thought out reasons because I dont want to deal with inexperienced players given half baked remarks.

 

[X5Dragon]

You threw the match away the moment you switched out Talonflame against what was clearly a Baton Pass chain. You gave your opponent a free turn and momentum.

People need to understand that unlike Swagplay, BP is a legitimate playstyle, it just so happens that it became too perfect and OP and had to be balanced, the same that has happened to other playstyles before.

Also, nerf means to balance, it doesn't mean that you should never lose to it if you reach high enough in the ladder.

Edit: Not to mention it was Vaporeon that did you in and you used Draco Meteor infront of Scolipede.

Edit2: and that part where you switched back and forth from Talon to Dugtrio and back. If anything I'm seeing Stall suffer here, not you. Sorry mate.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

First of all, this isnt me in the replay. It is denisss verse someone near the top of the ladder. And what you just said is that baton pass only needs ONE free turn to win the game....that is broken. And that talonflame is designed to beat the old baton pass teams, when he saw deo-s im assuming he didnt want to get psycho boosted and lose his check to the rest of the team.

The whole point of the nerf was because baton pass limited teambuilding options, because they require counters that are obscure and good for nothing else. But with these new teams, now we still need counters, but we dont know exactly what team we will be facing so we will be just blindly throwing up random counters and hoping they have the baton pass team that you can handle.

I will say that as a whole, even moves like perish song, they will now just switch to a poke that isnt part of the baton pass chain and handle it until they baton pass counter is cleared out, then proceed to get insane stat boosts in no time at all and pass to the sweeper.

Edit: Swagplay wasnt nerfed it was banned straight up, baton pass got a slap on the wrist. So the fact that you compare the two only strengthens my argument.

 

[alexwolf]

I changed the tittle of the OP to a more proper one. I will leave this open for a few days and see what comes out of it, and hopefully if you guys keep it to a standard we will be able to use this thread to talk about Baton Pass trends and new builds, now that they have been nerfed.

 

[victini dancer]

PFC agrees with mega scizor
To start off, BP IS based on that 3 poke core, an experienced player can STILL ladder extremely effectively with little to no effort, and it is STILL ruining the experience for people who ACTUALLY play showdown. It is broken as hell, and until fixed the ladder will either be filled with unsuccessful players OR a ton of BP scrubs

 

[Albacore]

Well, BP with 3 users is certainly viable. As for broken, I'm not too sure. That replay isn't the most convincing, but I have seen that team in action, and it is pretty threatening.
Honestly, I think BP should've been limited to 2 users as opposed to 3, since that forces you to use Espeon+Scoliopede+recipient, and there are definitely a lot of ways around that combination. But I can see how throwing DeoScreens into the mix makes it hard to beat. I suspect they are the actual broken element at play here, if there is one.

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

If your evidence of BP still being broken is one replay against a guy who made bad plays, then you can't be surprised if people don't take your thread seriously.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

If your evidence of BP still being broken is one replay against a guy who made bad plays, then you can't be surprised if people don't take your thread seriously.

I planned on making this thread regardless of the replay, I just happened to see it as I was making it. But conceptually you can see what I am talking about. The point was denisss hasnt skipped a beat on top of the ladder.

I changed the tittle of the OP to a more proper one. I will leave this open for a few days and see what comes out of it, and hopefully if you guys keep it to a standard we will be able to use this thread to talk about Baton Pass trends and new builds, now that they have been nerfed.

yeah thats a much better title, thanks.

 

[LightSage1331]

Although not the best thing in this tier, I think I might have a way to help out against baton pass (although this is theoretical)

Crobat Leftovers
Ability:Infiltrator
Jolly Nature
-Brave Bird
-Haze
-U-turn/Defog
-Cross Poison
252 Attack 252+ Speed 4 Defense

While I know that this isn't the best BP destroying God in the OU tier, Crobat Can do some helpful work when it comes to having infiltrator and haze at the same time. With Infiltrator the Pokemon behind a sub (i.e. Scolipede, Vaporeon, etc.) will still be taking damage (this is especially true for scolipede as scolipede can not take Crobat's Brave Birds Very well.) Here is a calc on how much crobat's brave bird does:
252 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. +2 240 HP / 92 Def Scolipede: 152-182 (47.3 - 56.6%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO

While The scolipede can easily switch out, this is the reason why I also added U-turn as a third slot option; It keeps you from losing too much momentum.
Before anyone says anything, yes I do know it will take more than this to take down a BP team with the scolipede+espeon core. This is just a suggestion I have so we can help find more checks to BP. Also for a U-turn calc:
252 Atk Crobat U-turn vs. +2 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 90-108 (33 - 39.7%) -- 18.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

While that is not that much damage this does help take down this machine known as BP. Since U-turn is switch initiative, you can also go out to another pokemon that can do massive damage. If someone can please help add on to this that would be highly appreciated. (By adding on I mean adding more reliable pokes that are not only viable against BP but against other tactics. I would have Infiltrator Noivern but I do not know for sure...)

 

[X5Dragon]

And what you just said is that baton pass only needs ONE free turn to win the game....that is broken.

I didn't say that, I said his mishap with Talonflame was the first of a series of bad plays and the one that had most influence. He could have reversed this mistake later in the game but he continued on to make more of them.

, now we still need counters, but we dont know exactly what team we will be facing so we will be just blindly throwing up random counters and hoping they have the baton pass team that you can handle.

But you just said this in the OP:
"Then it finally came around, but people didn't understand that the baton pass team, is just smeargle/scolipede/espeon".

You know exactly who you will be facing, and unlike before where you had to deal with 6 pokemon with BP each keeping on passing to the relevant counter to nearly every pokemon in OU and beyond, now it's just 3. You have many offensive counters and defensive ones as well, anything that can hit hard off the bat, set up, mega, pokemon with taunt, etc. are good to go at these teams.

Edit: Swagplay wasnt nerfed it was banned straight up, baton pass got a slap on the wrist.

Because Swagplay was RNG roulette and BP isn't, it's a legitimate playstyle that got too OP.

So the fact that you compare the two only strengthens my argument.

=============

Edit: To be entirely fair though this makes me worried about Stall, a Taunt lead and a switch to Ingrain Smeargle can be more than enough to cause serious trouble but correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Clair]

Scolipede + Espeon was always the broken aspect, and it never had problems setting up more than once throughout a match. Sure, now it's much easier to prevent that one unbroken BP chain-and-sweep, but I've found it pretty difficult to stop the never-ending cycle of short passes.

Nevertheless, while I personally think Scolipede + Espeon is always going to be a little bit too strong, at least now the playstyle relies more on skill (both in teambuilding and in battle) than it did previously. Baton Pass is still abuseable, but at least now it isn't just a regular 6-0 based on the team matchup.

In regards to stall, there's a massive list of things which completely fuck stall up; it's just that usually the opportunity cost of using these things isn't worth it in an offense-dominated meta. Baton Pass is just another of these, and thanks to the nerf it's become much more manageable for offense.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

But you just said this in the OP:
"Then it finally came around, but people didn't understand that the baton pass team, is just smeargle/scolipede/espeon".

You know exactly who you will be facing, and unlike before where you had to deal with 6 pokemon with BP each keeping on passing to the relevant counter to nearly every pokemon in OU and beyond, now it's just 3. You have many offensive counters and defensive ones as well, anything that can hit hard off the bat, set up, mega, pokemon with taunt, etc. are good to go at these teams.

I am saying that if talonflame is your counter, then what if they have tyrantiar with rocks and pursuit, now talonflame is neutered. I mean to say that now instead of picking 6 of 7 baton pass pokes they can pick the best 3, and now are getting creative with the other 3. They are now molding the entire tier to better handle the common BP stops. Deo-s can have screens up in 2 turns and there is almost nothing that can stop that. That forces them to either waste a turn defogging or just allow scolipede to set up behind the screens.


Edit: upon reading my own post, I will acknowledge that the nerf does force baton pass players to actually think and be creative. I can see baton pass may now be considered a "legitimate" playstyle, but I think that legit or not, it is too powerful and requires odd counters that teams should not have to run to beat.

 

[Halcyon.]

I am saying that if talonflame is your counter, then what if they have tyrantiar with rocks and pursuit, now talonflame is neutered. I mean to say that now instead of picking 6 of 7 baton pass pokes they can pick the best 3, and now are getting creative with the other 3. They are now molding the entire tier to better handle the common BP stops. Deo-s can have screens up in 2 turns and there is almost nothing that can stop that. That forces them to either waste a turn defogging or just allow scolipede to set up behind the screens.


Edit: upon reading my own post, I will acknowledge that the nerf does force baton pass players to actually think and be creative. I can see baton pass may now be considered a "legitimate" playstyle, but I think that legit or not, it is too powerful and requires odd counters that teams should not have to run to beat.

So they're actually team building? I don't know, this doesn't seem like an issue to me because at least at this point there seems to be more skill and less of a formula. Seems more similar to smash pass now, which was the goal was it not?

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

So they're actually team building? I don't know, this doesn't seem like an issue to me because at least at this point there seems to be more skill and less of a formula. Seems more similar to smash pass now, which was the goal was it not?

Yeah Im glad I started this, because I do feel a little better. My main concern is someone leading off with something that scolipede can set up on and then having the game be over with espeon at +4 def and +2 speed with the ability to set up CMs. Smash pass is way worse than this, in the sense that smashpass is pretty awful without perfect circumstances. But yeah I will take back my notion that baton pass hasn't been nerfed at all, it definitely now requires more thought by the user and that is good.

The only problem is it only requires more thought from denisss and then everyone will just copy him. So idk

 

[Katakiri]

If your evidence of BP still being broken is one replay against a guy who made bad plays, then you can't be surprised if people don't take your thread seriously.

For the record, the opponent made pretty much every correct play in that replay. If the Deoxys-S wasn't Dual Screens that Knock Off Azumarill demolishes it, the Defog to remove screens was important since he wasn't stopping anything with both screens up, and switching Talonflame out of Smeargle was his best play because the Spore was VERY obvious and Smeargle out-speeds; it could have been game anyway if he got anything longer than a 1 turn sleep so switching was his best option, and keeping Dugtrio in wasn't the worst option since ANYTHING he brought in would have eaten a Spore and allowed Smeargle to climb to +2 with Quiver Dance. Even whiffing the Draco on Scolipede was trying to catch a Baton Pass to something like Espeon that could CM all over Latias and still not give a damn about Talonflame with +4 Def.

There are many ways that battle could have gone and Smeargle and Espeon could have acted as an answer in most of them. But I think the point of the replay is that the opponent had a solid check to Deoxys-S, Defog to remove screens/hazards, two STAB priority moves, and a fast Taunt user and still had little chance of coming out on top.

 

[nyczxjay]

Yea I'm a little disappointed with the effects of the BP nerf as well. I personally suggested that we limit the use of BP to 1 pokemon per team (2 at the absolute max).

And with regards to that replay that Denisss (I was not aware that was his alt) saved, I switched Talonflame because I wasn't sure what kind of D-S he was running and didn't want to risk my BP check to random shit which ultimately came back to bite me in the ass. I also had the opportunity to just Taunt Smeargle but at that point it was already faster than Talonflame with the speed boosts and I was expecting him to Spore me (he had no reason not to), so I switched out to Dugtrio to take the sleep (as he decided to use Ingrain instead).

If that was indeed Denisss's alt then chances are he knew I would switch out predicting the Spore so he went for the Ingrain. I've played him before on his main account pre-nerf and he knows my team - it's always a mind-fuck session when we battle (at least on my side of things...).

BP is still extremely effective when used by someone like Denisss who knows how to use it. Also the fact that he's using things like Deo-S just adds to the mind games you can play because of its unpredictability and allows you to gain momentum at turn 1 as shown in this example (Deo-S/D for next suspect!).

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

HM in that replay is it espeon or Vaporeon that doesn't know bp? As espeon imo needs to know it . Kind of curious why vaporeon as it is ok for mindgames, but imo there are better recipients.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

Yea I'm a little disappointed with the effects of the BP nerf as well. I personally suggested that we limit the use of BP to 1 pokemon per team (2 at the absolute max).

And with regards to that replay that Denisss (I was not aware that was his alt) saved, I switched Talonflame because I wasn't sure what kind of D-S he was running and didn't want to risk my BP check to random shit which ultimately came back to bite me in the ass. I also had the opportunity to just Taunt Smeargle but at that point it was already faster than Talonflame with the speed boosts and I was expecting him to Spore me (he had no reason not to), so I switched out to Dugtrio to take the sleep (as he decided to use Ingrain instead).

If that was indeed Denisss's alt then chances are he knew I would switch out predicting the Spore so he went for the Ingrain. I've played him before on his main account pre-nerf and he knows my team - it's always a mind-fuck session when we battle (at least on my side of things...).

BP is still extremely effective when used by someone like Denisss who knows how to use it. Also the fact that he's using things like Deo-S just adds to the mind games you can play because of its unpredictability and allows you to gain momentum at turn 1 as shown in this example (Deo-S/D for next suspect!).

Thanks for posting your thoughts during the battle, it really helps. I mean I knew why you did most of the switches, and had you known that was denisss you may have played differently. But the point was made, that although the nerf does force players to be more creative with teambuilding, now the teams are unpredictable and still maintain the power to accumulate and pass boosts very quickly.

 

[Vryheid]

So, let me start by expressing my disappointment with the results of the last suspect test. First of all we waited way too long, as baton pass teams ran rampant on the ladder ruining the experience.

"Rampant on the ladder", huh? Did you actually reach the suspect test reqs or do you just have no idea what you are talking about?

The suspect test was bad specifically BECAUSE virtually nobody was willing to use BP chains. Over the course of 160 battles as a BP chain user on that ladder I found that maybe 5% of the people I came across actually used one, and following their matches showed that even BP users who were in the top 100 on the OU ladder struggled on the suspect ladder just as much as I did. Basically, people came in with a totally closed mind, made heavily biased and uninformed opinions in the discussion thread, and whined about it being broken despite consistently beating even the best BP players with minor adjustments to their generic hyperoffense cores.

Now you want to complain about people who try to make the most out of a broken playstyle despite getting the nerf you specifically voted for?

Here's a thought- learn how to play against them instead of automatically assuming they are effortless and broken. Basic shit like priority, Taunt, prediction, and sweeper pressure is just as effective against BP chains as they ever have been, and with only three BP users available the chain has MUCH less longevity. Notice the lack of Zapdos on Denisss's team- maybe that's an indication that attacking with Talonflame instead of pointlessly switching out over and over like the guy in the replay is a good idea? Notice the lack of Sylveon, allowing a common special sweeper like Landorus to get up Stealth Rock and proceed to punch through the team with little resistance. Notice the lack of Baton Pass on Vaporeon, which would have been pretty obvious right from the start if you had any experience with BP chains- maybe that's an indication you should force it out with a common sweeper like Mega Charizard and proceed to tear it apart with Mega Venusaur or the electric type of your choice.

But that would require having a coherent strategy instead of some catch-all answer to the entire playstyle, which according to you is a bad thing:

teambuilding will still require dedicated and obscure checks/counters to baton pass.

You don't need a check/counter to stall or a check/counter to hyperoffense to beat them or any other playstyle, you need a check/counter to each individual Pokemon and the ability to play well enough to make use of those advantages. If this means taking risks instead of making the most blatantly obvious plays imaginable like the guy in that replay, then by golly you're just going to have to do it, because as long as there are ANY form of sweepers in this game you are going to get punished for making stupid and predictable plays.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

"Rampant on the ladder", huh? Did you actually reach the suspect test reqs or do you just have no idea what you are talking about?

The suspect test was bad specifically BECAUSE virtually nobody was willing to use BP chains. Over the course of 160 battles as a BP chain user on that ladder I found that maybe 5% of the people I came across actually used one, and following their matches showed that even BP users who were in the top 100 on the OU ladder struggled on the suspect ladder just as much as I did. Basically, people came in with a totally closed mind, made heavily biased and uninformed opinions in the discussion thread, and whined about it being broken despite consistently beating even the best BP players with minor adjustments to their generic hyperoffense cores.

Now you want to complain about people who try to make the most out of a broken playstyle despite getting the nerf you specifically voted for?

Here's a thought- learn how to play against them instead of automatically assuming they are effortless and broken. Basic shit like priority, Taunt, prediction, and sweeper pressure is just as effective against BP chains as they ever have been, and with only three BP users available the chain has MUCH less longevity. Notice the lack of Zapdos on Denisss's team- maybe that's an indication that attacking with Talonflame instead of pointlessly switching out over and over like the guy in the replay is a good idea? Notice the lack of Sylveon, allowing a common special sweeper like Landorus to get up Stealth Rock and proceed to punch through the team with little resistance. Notice the lack of Baton Pass on Vaporeon, which would have been pretty obvious right from the start if you had any experience with BP chains- maybe that's an indication you should force it out with a common sweeper like Mega Charizard and proceed to tear it apart with Mega Venusaur or the electric type of your choice.

But that would require having a coherent strategy instead of some catch-all answer to the entire playstyle, which according to you is a bad thing:



You don't need a check/counter to stall or a check/counter to hyperoffense to beat them or any other playstyle, you need a check/counter to each individual Pokemon and the ability to play well enough to make use of those advantages. If this means taking risks instead of making the most blatantly obvious plays imaginable like the guy in that replay, then by golly you're just going to have to do it, because as long as there are ANY form of sweepers in this game you are going to get punished for making stupid and predictable plays.

Yeah not sure I like your tone, especially because I can easily hold my account in the top 20 of the ou ladder, at least. I was not referring to the suspect ladder when I said BP was running rampant. I was referring to my time near the top of the ladder (have you been there) because when I would look for a battle, all I ran into was baton pass and stall. I started playing the same people that run baton pass over and over, so even though I had checks to baton pass they were able to turn the game into a bunch of 50/50s.

You also took the liberty of putting a bunch of words in my mouth, my current stance on baton pass is that it now requires more innovation in the teambuilding process, but not only that, it also requires more skill in the exuction of the playstyle, whereas before the team would just autoplay and win games off of matchups. The part I am "complaining" about, for lack of a better word, is scolipede+espeon needing only 2-3 turns of the opponent making the slightest mistake , and then they can just setup whatever boosts they need to in order to win.

I just wish scolipede was unable to have speed boost + baton pass, that is all. As far as I am concerned baton pass will not die, as long as scolipede remains as he is. Maybe I should just accept baton pass' place in OU, but the only reason I bring this up is because I thought the suspect test was going to put an end to BP, and as far as I can tell, it only helped out the lower ladder.

 

[MikeDawg]

I don't think that it was ever too difficult to break the chain.

In fact, every single time I faced baton pass I was able to kill espeon/stop the bpassing late-chain.

And then I got screwed over when they started boosting again with the five remaining mons and then swept with sylveon because my team just wasn't fit to handle them more than once.

I think that every team should be required to prepare for baton pass, period. However, that is very very difficult to do when there are 6 options to boost, pass, and reboost if neccesary.

If the number of mons is limited, then so is the opponents ability to not only fend off possible checks, but also to rebuild the chain after so much work was put in to break it the first time.

 

[Petrico94]

He had a counter but had no idea what he was doing. Get a better replay.

 

[Ajwf]

"Rampant on the ladder", huh? Did you actually reach the suspect test reqs or do you just have no idea what you are talking about?

The suspect test was bad specifically BECAUSE virtually nobody was willing to use BP chains. Over the course of 160 battles as a BP chain user on that ladder I found that maybe 5% of the people I came across actually used one, and following their matches showed that even BP users who were in the top 100 on the OU ladder struggled on the suspect ladder just as much as I did. Basically, people came in with a totally closed mind, made heavily biased and uninformed opinions in the discussion thread, and whined about it being broken despite consistently beating even the best BP players with minor adjustments to their generic hyperoffense cores.

Now you want to complain about people who try to make the most out of a broken playstyle despite getting the nerf you specifically voted for?

Here's a thought- learn how to play against them instead of automatically assuming they are effortless and broken. Basic shit like priority, Taunt, prediction, and sweeper pressure is just as effective against BP chains as they ever have been, and with only three BP users available the chain has MUCH less longevity. Notice the lack of Zapdos on Denisss's team- maybe that's an indication that attacking with Talonflame instead of pointlessly switching out over and over like the guy in the replay is a good idea? Notice the lack of Sylveon, allowing a common special sweeper like Landorus to get up Stealth Rock and proceed to punch through the team with little resistance. Notice the lack of Baton Pass on Vaporeon, which would have been pretty obvious right from the start if you had any experience with BP chains- maybe that's an indication you should force it out with a common sweeper like Mega Charizard and proceed to tear it apart with Mega Venusaur or the electric type of your choice.

But that would require having a coherent strategy instead of some catch-all answer to the entire playstyle, which according to you is a bad thing:



You don't need a check/counter to stall or a check/counter to hyperoffense to beat them or any other playstyle, you need a check/counter to each individual Pokemon and the ability to play well enough to make use of those advantages. If this means taking risks instead of making the most blatantly obvious plays imaginable like the guy in that replay, then by golly you're just going to have to do it, because as long as there are ANY form of sweepers in this game you are going to get punished for making stupid and predictable plays.

There was enough salt in this post for me to flavor all the food in Africa. BP was very, very common on the "Ladder" which refers to the OU one, not necessarily the suspect ladder. It isn't like the four+ months before the test never happened. With baton pass, you never COULD check/counter individuals because of the variety of different boosts they had. Eventually, you just can't take a pokemon boosted so high. And you can't counter a pokemon when they WANT you to switch. The pokemon is focusing on it's own goal and ignoring the opponent's mon so the switches you have are completely irrelevant until you start attacking.

=============

Edit: To be entirely fair though this makes me worried about Stall, a Taunt lead and a switch to Ingrain Smeargle can be more than enough to cause serious trouble but correct me if I'm wrong.

It fucking scares me to be honest. The team is kinda genius even if the design is just taking a page from HO teams. The team is meant to FORCE you to lose momentum on the first turns by trying to clear off those screens, in which Scoli is gaining an incredible amount of boosts as you have to wait for Deo-S to get off the field to even CLEAR the screens. So on that defog turn, scol has three boosts and outspeeds you. If you don't defog, he has three boosts, outspeeds you and screens. Even if you run Deo-S counter leading... well, he can go espeon and I doubt you ohko scoli through screens and now you're -2.

In fact, the best play is to force a protect somehow... but behind screens, TF won't even ohko scol.

So after those quick boosts, the issue is immediately apparent: For a while, he core switches the ingrain, spore threats and magic bounce espeon... He doesn't NEED ingrain right away because the endgame is forced so much quicker but he has two out pass options. Vs bulky teams, it appears he uses vaporeon, but that Celfable is unaware. That's a slap in the face to offense more than stall but heh I already have to deal with getting outsped, outboosted and ingrained... The main point is he just passes off to a stored power user that hits darks for minimum neutral with their stabs.... Idk, honestly after having watched WebBowser play in the suspect, I'm not surprised this was managed. Does it warrant another suspect test... Oh lord. We'll find out quickly enough as half the lower ladder (and a good bit of the upper, it did get good mileage) worshiped denisss' team the last time around. A different solution might be to suspect Deo-S... I feel like this current team hinges on all the momentum DeoS is gaining as a suicide screener. Rocks aren't even necessary but it might fuck with those people using Shedinja as a BP counter...

The screens have unbelievable synergy with this style... as the game is won in the first few turns, and the screens take time to remove, it literally is showing the amount of pressure the opponent is under to not lose momentum... and vs Deo-S, that's difficult.

Obviously the tactic isn't perfected, but it is fairly brilliant and I did marvel a bit when I saw it earlier today. And rage. Silent brooding. Back to haze quagsire...

 

[SoulRed12]

Honestly, if it were up to me, I'd say I agree with you. I'd rather Speed Boost + Baton Pass be banned than just "only 3 mons with BP." But, I found the option #3 that they did present problematic because banning Magic Bounce + BP as well seemed to be going too far for no reason. Espeon needs BP to escape pursuit, and without the easy speed and defense boosts from Scolipede Espeon loses a ton of its initial offensive presence. And on top of that, taking BP away from Espeon doesn't actually do much to hurt BP, since Espeon doesn't technically need to know BP to sweep for a BP team -- it could be run like the receivers of Gen IV teams, where people would boost up and then finally switch out to a powerhouse like Rhyperior. Plus, Sylveon itself could be a dangerous BP sweeper if it had to. So Option #3 never really did it for me, and if I would have been able to vote I would have chosen #2 simply because #3 seemed both over and under-inclusive at the same time.

Anyway, it's easily demonstrable that BP has lost something valuable here. Assuming we have an essential core of Scolipede + Espeon, that gives room for just one more BP pokemon.

• Without Smeargle, you lose out on ingrain, meaning you lose the ability to set up on Phazers. You also don't get the chance to sleep threats, and a way to boost special defense before going to Espeon (Quiver Dance).
• Without Sylveon, Mega Gyarados has a much easier time setting up (or can Mold Breaker Taunt without worrying that Sylveon will come in and kill it anyway, and then still retain the boosts by BPing once the Taunt wears off), and if Espeon is your killer, it is now forced to run HP Fighting or DG to hit dark types, leaving it unable to run Substitute or Morning Sun. You also lose a huge asset vs. Haze Quag.
• Without Zapdos, you lose out on a way to deal with Mega Pinsir, who can otherwise prevent Scolipede from ever BPing out thanks to SD + quick attack (or even just quick attack). Without any defense boosts, Espeon doesn't stand a chance.
• Without Vaporeon, you lose out on 1) the ability to make 101 HP subs, 2) the ability to roar out pokemon who try to set up on you, 3) the only viable water resist/immunity for BP teams, 4) a way to set up additional defense boosts if Scolipede didn't have time to do so for some reason (e.g., it was facing a Mega Pinsir), and/or 5) the damage and burn chance from scald.
• Without giving Espeon BP, you can pick two of the above, but then you're forced to only go into Espeon when you're done boosting, making it MUCH harder to bounce hazards or block Phazing. Not to mention, again, you're forced to run HP Fighting or DG for those dark types.

Yes, the BP team could run counters and such on the team and not give those pokemon BP, but remember that BP teams are used to having their cake and eating it too: before the new clause, they could have simply utilized the speed boosts and BPd to the counter, and BPd next turn as the opponent switches out. Now they have to hard switch and avoid ingrain until they're sure all the threats are gone.

All that said, Deniss does seem to have a "great" thing going there with those dual screens. While BP has lost something, it doesn't mean that BP isn't still extremely powerful and dangerous with more at its disposal than we have seen. At the same time, as many are suggesting, BP was never meant to be eradicated, simply nerfed as a result of the buffs it has been getting. And as I said above, it has been nerfed. The question is, was it enough to balance the metagame? I dunno.

At first glance, Landorus-I seems to do a number on that team in the replay, although screens would prevent him from dealing serious damage to Espeon, so that's a problem. Dual Screens have always been irritating though. Yet they haven't been really seen against such an unforgiving play style as BP, so as Ajwf mentioned, what you get is essentially Deniss forcing the opponent to give him at least two free turns of set up to defog the screens. That means gg unless you're running a dedicated BP counter like Haze Quag, and even then, Espeon's stored power by then (if the player predicts and BPs on the switch to Espeon) might be too strong for Quag to tank.

A different solution might be to suspect Deo-S... I feel like this current team hinges on all the momentum DeoS is gaining as a suicide screener.

Quite frankly, this should happen anyway, along with his fat sibling. (How Deo-S escaped the banhammer last time, I have no idea. Maybe the metagame just hadn't developed enough by that point.) Deo-D could easily perform the same role, though perhaps requiring a bit more prediction, thanks to Magic Coat, Taunt, and/or Mental Herb and being impossible to OHKO in one turn.

 

[Super Mario Bro]

Can we wait a bit longer before we start panicking again? It's only been, what, two days since the BP hit was implemented? We have no idea how those teams will do compared to everything else, particularly in the tournament scene, and one or two replays this soon in a brand new meta means almost nothing.