The First Smogon Council - Salamence

[Ericcc]

Crobat's speed, Taunt, and Super Fang also break walls like they were nothing, although a set like that is limited in what else it can do. So, um, Salamence has Crobat's (or Infernape's if you prefer) wall-breaking talent, Breloom's physical presence, Latias' special attacking prowess, Dragonite's type coverage, and Flygon's speed.

See? That's five OU Pokemon, all rolled up into one Salamence-shaped blunt, ready to smoke the competition.

Hm, I've never seen it put that way.
Although Flygon runs Choice Scarf a lot so it could still outrun Mence and OHKO it with Outrage (Mix Mence - which is the set so good at "stall breaking").
But I'm all for Mence ---> Ubers ban.
B/W are just on the horizon.

 

[Bamce]

The only thing holding Nite back seems to be that 20 speed difference.

Big difference is big.

Most people will not trust a coin flip speed tie.

Nite can't even claim a coin flip.

 

[Ericcc]

Big difference is big.

Most people will not trust a coin flip speed tie.

Nite can't even claim a coin flip.

Yea, if Mence goes Uber, I doubt anyone would resort to using Nite anyway.
No matter what anyone says, the speed difference makes ALL the difference.

 

[Bamce]

Yea, if Mence goes Uber, I doubt anyone would resort to using Nite anyway.
No matter what anyone says, the speed difference makes ALL the difference.

Agreed. However i have at least twice seen and responded to that about coin flips. Hopefully increased font will make it easier to read, and actually fits the statement.

OT:
I hope that this time without mence in the suspect teir will positively influence the meta. Regardless of outcome, as I am still fenced.

I can easily see people discovering new sets, and that these sets would be woven back into standard. Personally I do not look forward to a stall heavy meta.I do not enjoy long agonizing matches that I am on the controlled side.

 

[Efemera]

With regards to the "omg Scizor is on more teams than Salamence, why isn't it suspect" argument, one of the reasons Scizor is so heavily used is because of Salamence, ironically enough.

 

[Ericcc]

With regards to the "omg Scizor is on more teams than Salamence, why isn't it suspect" argument, one of the reasons Scizor is so heavily used is because of Salamence, ironically enough.

Eh, Scizor would still be threat, although maybe a less - seen one, without Mence in OU. It's a great Celebi/Gengar counter. And let's face it - Bullet Punch Scizor was the greatest thing that happened since Salamence was introduced in R/S/E.

 

[Bamce]

if not scizor then hitmontop would spike up as a revenge killer.

Also anything that resists steal and has anything that resembles a respectable defense stat stops him.

 

[Efemera]

Eh, Scizor would still be threat, although maybe a less - seen one, without Mence in OU. It's a great Celebi/Gengar counter. And let's face it - Bullet Punch Scizor was the greatest thing that happened since Salamence was introduced in R/S/E.

Where did I say Scizor isn't a good Pokemon? You're just saying words.

 

[Ericcc]

if not scizor then hitmontop would spike up as a revenge killer.

Also anything that resists steal and has anything that resembles a respectable defense stat stops him.

Yep.
But he's a great (if not one of the best) revenge killers in the game. Thankfully, there's Magnezone to balance this situation out.
I don't think Hitmontop would rise in usage. He's great in UU, but in OU I don't think he'd function well

@Efemera; ok d:

 

[Dura]

And like Bulky Water or Electric.

Scizor has plenty of checks that are part of the natural metagame. U-Turn just makes him really annoying.

 

[Fiveoclock]

How AI handles a Poke means NOTHING! I just beat a Magneton with a Skarmory. Does that mean anything? No. The AI was stupid. Sorry if I sound harsh, though...I just come off that way.

 

[JonTheRed]

Hm, I've never seen it put that way.
Although Flygon runs Choice Scarf a lot so it could still outrun Mence and OHKO it with Outrage (Mix Mence - which is the set so good at "stall breaking").
But I'm all for Mence ---> Ubers ban.
B/W are just on the horizon.

Salamence has Dragon Dance to catch up to Scarf Flygon's speed. Not that you want to DD alongside an enemy Dragon, but base 100 speed takes you places after a boost or two.

 

[purple crobatchop]

I am very disappointed that my post here is deleted. As much as you would hate that post, I made a valid point. We were banning Garchomp and left Salamence, even in Platinum, because Garchomp has the "Uber" ability. Now people are giving Salamence support about the "Uber" ability. If we are going to ban Salamence, then we are just going to come up with some reason why Dragonite is Uber afterwards, or Kingdra.

 

[Longfellow]

UU isn't falling down the ban-happy slippery slope. Why should OU be any different?

 

[Efemera]

UU isn't falling down the ban-happy slippery slope. Why should OU be any different?

It's just another one of those tired off-topic arguments from people who don't know what they're talking about that keep popping up every 5 posts. Along with:

- complete dominance of stall in Suspect / OU is too slow paced
- Salamence can be revenge killed
- Dragonite/Flygon/Infernape/Scizor/something else is the same as Salamence
- people will be butthurt and leave Smogon
- misrepresentation of Sirlin's article to say that people should stop complaining and try to find ways around Salamence (even though the same article says sometimes things are clearly overpowered and should be banned to improve the metagame, and we've been playing with Salamence for years now)
- Gen 5 is coming out so this whole discussion is irrelevant
- Salamence is bad in Ubers

I have seen some very good arguments for Salamence being OU in this thread, but overwhelmingly the arguments tend to fall in this list of crap.

 

[VKCA]

I am very disappointed that my post here is deleted. As much as you would hate that post, I made a valid point. We were banning Garchomp and left Salamence, even in Platinum, because Garchomp has the "Uber" ability. Now people are giving Salamence support about the "Uber" ability. If we are going to ban Salamence, then we are just going to come up with some reason why Dragonite is Uber afterwards, or Kingdra.

Your post was probably deleted because the slippery slope argument has been shot down countless times in this thread.

For the last fucking time
No other pokemon has base 135atk base 110spatk and base 100speed, as well as stab draco meteor/outrage and two coverage moves that ensure perfect coverage.
more or less what efemera said

 

[purple crobatchop]

Your post was probably deleted because the slippery slope argument has been shot down countless times in this thread.

For the last fucking time
No other pokemon has base 135atk base 110spatk and base 100speed, as well as stab draco meteor/outrage and two coverage moves that ensure perfect coverage.
more or less what efemera said

So what you are saying is either ban Salamence now, or free Garchomp into OU?

 

[VKCA]

So what you are saying is either ban Salamence now, or free Garchomp into OU?

I'm saying salamence is broken, and if you ban him no pokemon would replace him and become the next suspect.

 

[Aqueos]

Insanely Heavy stall loves this metagame, and the stall team I've assembled, counters every single wallbreaker quite well. And nothing to replace mence is bad because? Though mixed kingdra has been a nuisance....

 

[Ericcc]

It's just another one of those tired off-topic arguments from people who don't know what they're talking about that keep popping up every 5 posts. Along with:

- complete dominance of stall in Suspect / OU is too slow paced
- Salamence can be revenge killed
- Dragonite/Flygon/Infernape/Scizor/something else is the same as Salamence
- people will be butthurt and leave Smogon
- misrepresentation of Sirlin's article to say that people should stop complaining and try to find ways around Salamence (even though the same article says sometimes things are clearly overpowered and should be banned to improve the metagame, and we've been playing with Salamence for years now)
- Gen 5 is coming out so this whole discussion is irrelevant
- Salamence is bad in Ubers

I have seen some very good arguments for Salamence being OU in this thread, but overwhelmingly the arguments tend to fall in this list of crap.

Would you care to quote/ copy&paste some?
I mean, there's a lot of valid reasons why Mence is OU. I just haven't seen any in this thread. 90% of the people here are Pro-Uber for him.

 

[Efemera]

Would you care to quote/ copy&paste some?
I mean, there's a lot of valid reasons why Mence is OU. I just haven't seen any in this thread. 90% of the people here are Pro-Uber for him.

Just go back a few pages and ignore anything that looks like one of the ones in the list. I know SubVersion wrote a few good ones, ChouToshio wrote a good one, and there's a couple others.

 

[Vile]

sooo lets see, in summary...

DDmence is not the problem, since its almost the same as ddnite (which i belive does a better work than mence) (and even gyarados is bulkier than mence)

so this leaves the mixmences as suspects?, now, whats the problem with them:
-unpredictible? as any pokemon in the game, any pokemon that could be holding a scarf or band makes it unpredictible, something with an unusual build could be dangerus. thats what makes the game interesting and more important, challenging. personally i didnt had problems beating him, an average scenario, he kills something, with draco or outrage, then i send metagross and its over.

- hits hard from both sides? yes, but after 1 attack (that could posibly go bad) mence its an open book, draco meteor, no more spatks coming from him, just outrage earthquake or roost. outrage? he is traped on it. if he flees? he will take another chunk of hp from the SR.

-decent bulk? yes, he has intimidate, the same as gyarados, wich is even more bulkier than him, not the same speed, but in DD builds works better.
95/80/80 is pretty decent, but salamance has 3 weaknesess, Ice, rock and dragon. (wich are very common attacking types. ) plus, almost every mixmence has a naive nature, (some hasty).


he is strong, yes, he is an uber? not so sure.
in overall, he does not even reach the reasons why garchomp and latias went to ubers.
pletora of pokemons are as strong as him, thats why they are in ou, because they are better THAN other pokemons AT SOMETHING.
like scizor revenge killing, infernape at sweeping, tyranitar at being tyranitar and bla bla bla.

 

[Sphyxius]

-unpredictible? as any pokemon in the game, any pokemon that could be holding a scarf or band makes it unpredictible, something with an unusual build could be dangerus. thats what makes the game interesting and more important, challenging. personally i didnt had problems beating him, an average scenario, he kills something, with draco or outrage, then i send metagross and its over.

most people arguing against mence=uber are making this mistake. They think mence is counterable just because you can revenge kill it. the simple fact that you almost always have to lose one pokemon it (not unlike wobbuffet in ubers) is what seems to be the issue. very few other pokemon can boast this, that yeah, you might put them down but not after they've raped one of your own. when you take into account mence's stats, the fact that it has perfect coverage, and two STAB attacks, one physical and one special that hit with 120 BP or more... no other OU pokemon boasts that. Its the hardest and fastest hitting pokemon in OU, hands down. its sheer power alone is on par with a lot of ubers actually.

I doubt it will get voted uber though. If it had a priority move though, say extreme speed, I think that would seal the deal though.

 

[TrainerJon]

I totally think Salamence should be banned. First and foremost, It can kill like that. Even a unEV'd one can wipe a team out. ( the ones little kids use!) Salamence's only weakness seems to be Ice with 4x. That is why it is useful to carry Ice Shard. But what if your team doesnt have that. I say it is most likely game over for you. I can't say though that it will do well in uber. It is just like a godly OU, is a overpowered OU, but can't survive in the Ubers, though.

 

[Dura]

I propose anyone using Salamence's performance in Uber as any form of argument be deleted here.