The First Smogon Council - Salamence

[Aura Guardian]

So thats THREE, coun't 'em, THREE other pokemon that are in this fictional team for the sole purpose of supporting a mence sweep plus the mence itself and the player then only has two other slots, this mence isn't going to have very good coverage (seeing as it apparently has substitute, dragon dance and outrage - it gets to pick one other attacking move for coverage) so those other two slots would almost certainly be backup sweepers, probably something with priority to finish off what mence started.

If Mence is Uber, then it will be by the Support Clause, I think. Offense: needs decent support; Defense: surely, you jest ("you" as in, anyone who brings it up).

As for support, well, can Mence blow a big enough hole in teams to count as Uber?

Anyway:

The current metagame is weak to kamikazes. CB Selfdestruct Snorlax, Metagross lead with Explosion, etc. I think blowing up a lot might be a good strategy to blow holes in teams - certainly better than it was for me in Standard.

 

[Randomdog]

Not meaning to sound insulting as you've obviously been here longer than me and have more experience but just stop and think for a second.

Is it really right to ban something just because a valid strategy exists surrounding it?

This is an article which I really think should be read by ANYONE who wants to partake in suspect decision. http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html

 

[Hcapt]

You really, really, really wasn't here back when people started discussing Garchomp. The animosity levels were much bigger, and even then the community wasn't about to "be sliced up".

It got banned in the end, and people got over it. We had Stage 3 a few months later where it was retested and re-discussed (as there are good players/debaters out there who think it's OU), but it was considered Uber once more. And the community is still pretty solid after that.

Bolded is a blatant lie.

The best (no longer Shoddy) players I know always run Garchomp. They didn't get over it; they gave up on Shoddy. There are some truely remarkable pokemon players on smashboards that you won't see around here much, but they still use the service for tournaments with their own rulesets.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=275743

 

[shrang]

If Mence is Uber, then it will be by the Support Clause, I think. Offense: needs decent support; Defense: surely, you jest ("you" as in, anyone who brings it up).

As for support, well, can Mence blow a big enough hole in teams to count as Uber?

Anyway:

The current metagame is weak to kamikazes. CB Selfdestruct Snorlax, Metagross lead with Explosion, etc. I think blowing up a lot might be a good strategy to blow holes in teams - certainly better than it was for me in Standard.

Lol that sounds so much easier to blow holes with than to use MixMence. Just don't blow up on Ghosts. That's all.

 

[Hcapt]

I pulled this out of a Latias ban discussion:

"Actually it does, at least more so than generic "I think this pokemon is broke" statements that Smogon seems to be running off of. Latias being banned raises a huge question to me and that's WHY is something that's legitimately and easily counterable, not a centralizing force and generally just a good pokemon banned?

Scizor's usage is higher than any other pokemons has EVER been, to the point where you HAVE to prepare for it on your team no matter what. That's an obscene centralizing force right there. Mence you could throw stealth rocks up and have a priority move(which you will because if you're playing pokemon you have SR+Scizor, the two most centralizing forces in the metagame) Mence isnt even that good, it just has enough options that you can prepare for the wrong one and end up losing a poke to it. Then you bring in Scizor and it ceases to be a problem."

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=275664&page=5

 

[Prownage89]

Mence is outright ridiculous. It pops up everywhere, on every team. It only has like 1 solid counter in Weavile.

 

[Ericcc]

I pulled this out of a Latias ban discussion:

"Actually it does, at least more so than generic "I think this pokemon is broke" statements that Smogon seems to be running off of. Latias being banned raises a huge question to me and that's WHY is something that's legitimately and easily counterable, not a centralizing force and generally just a good pokemon banned?

Scizor's usage is higher than any other pokemons has EVER been, to the point where you HAVE to prepare for it on your team no matter what. That's an obscene centralizing force right there. Mence you could throw stealth rocks up and have a priority move(which you will because if you're playing pokemon you have SR+Scizor, the two most centralizing forces in the metagame) Mence isnt even that good, it just has enough options that you can prepare for the wrong one and end up losing a poke to it. Then you bring in Scizor and it ceases to be a problem."

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=275664&page=5

I strongly agree with you on this.
Unfortunately, no other person on these threads will -___-

 

[Demoness]

Uh Hcapt, Scizor may be the most used but You act like it can easily sweep and your forced to use it on your team or your at a huge disadvantage when lots of teams can function without him. Also, Scizor has things called Counters and much more reliable checks, Salamence doesn't have very reliable counters and checks that can easily fail. And having to prepare for a poke that is common =/= over centrelizing to a broken limit

edit:

Mence is outright ridiculous. It pops up everywhere, on every team. It only has like 1 solid counter in Weavile.

Seriously, when will people get that Revenge killing doesn't mean your a counter? A Counter needs to actually be able to switch in on the poke that it's trying to beat. If it can't do that, it isin't a counter.

 

[Jaxx]

Mence is outright ridiculous. It pops up everywhere, on every team. It only has like 1 solid counter in Weavile.

That isn't a decent argument. I see one every blue moon. Everyone will see it a different amount.

 

[Ericcc]

Uh Hcapt, Scizor may be the most used but You act like it can easily sweep and your forced to use it on your team or your at a huge disadvantage when lots of teams can function without him. Also, Scizor has things called Counters and much more reliable checks, Salamence doesn't have very reliable counters and checks that can easily fail. And having to prepare for a poke that is common =/= over centrelizing to a broken limit

Judging by the fact that Scizor is the most used Pokemon in today's metagame, I'm going to say that it does overcentralize the game, and if it was removed... well let's just say it'd be different.
Same thing goes for Mence. If it was removed, I think that the metagame would be so unbalanced with stall, and completely not fun. The challenge of having to actually think and coming up with a strategy to beat Mence is what gives [experienced] players thrills. And if you were to take that away, then [some] people would probably leave OU forever (just a thought).

 

[Demoness]

I'm not tyring to deny he is centrelizing or that if he were to leave the metagame would be different. I was saying that just because your the most used doesn't mean your alwasy overcentrelizing, it can just means your a good poke to use on a team.


Your " Stall will run rampet" part is laughable. Even if Mence leaves, theres still all those toher pokes that can destroy stall.

 

[TheValkyries]

Words

Well, that's cool. You realize they were two different sets right? And that the point was that you can't know a goddamn thing about Salamence when he switches in. Sure he could be the common types of sets. Or he could be popping some random gimmick set that is specifically built to take down his own checks. You just can't know, and that lack of knowledge is very abusable.

Also, if you don't have something to take the Ice moves that everyone and their mother will throw at Mence, then you're stupid, and you have a terrible team. You'd be hard pressed to find any pokemon that can stand by itself, with no other teammates, and tank every hit thrown at it while destroying in return, even if you brought Ubers pokes down to OU.

Furthermore, the Magnezone comment was for everyone who was saying how terribly mence deals with steel types. And you talking about Wish support as if it's specifically geared to keep Mence alive got a hearty chuckle out of me. Especially since you really don't even need Wish, as Mence's ability to run Roost is one of it's deadlier features. "Hai gaiz! I can has healing move that halves my x4 weakness, and completely eradicates my rock weakness?"

Nice try though.

 

[Ericcc]

I'm not tyring to deny he is centrelizing or that if he were to leave the metagame would be different. I was saying that just because your the most used doesn't mean your alwasy overcentrelizing, it can just means your a good poke to use on a team.


Your " Stall will run rampet" part is laughable. Even if Mence leaves, theres still all those toher pokes that can destroy stall.

Eh,
If Mence leaves Mix Ape will run up to #1 on the most used Pokemon list,
And then people would complain about it

 

[Misa]

Uh Hcapt, Scizor may be the most used but You act like it can easily sweep and your forced to use it on your team or your at a huge disadvantage when lots of teams can function without him. Also, Scizor has things called Counters and much more reliable checks, Salamence doesn't have very reliable counters and checks that can easily fail. And having to prepare for a poke that is common =/= over centrelizing to a broken limit

Salamence usually has steel-types such as Bronzong as well as Cresselia as checks. Now that Tyranitar usage has gone down significantly I wonder why i haven't seen more Cress compared to before. People are also forgetting that Salamence is 2x weak to SR, and Life Orb/Sandstorm damage takes a huge chunk out of his health (all of those are set up early game).

If people are concerned about banning Salamence because it overcentralizes the metagame (which it hasn't), why not consider banning Scizor as well, since it overcentralizes the game more compared to Salamence. Scizor has counters, but most of the counters can't counter every set that Scizor can run. Same with Salamence; a counter for a DDMence set would probably lose to a MixMence.

 

[TheValkyries]

Judging by the fact that Scizor is the most used Pokemon in today's metagame, I'm going to say that it does overcentralize the game

I'm so seriously tired of seeing this argument. So let's think about the April stats for a few Seconds...

April stats indeed had Scizor at a commanding lead of 28.7% and Tyranitar at 21.5%. Both were ABOVE Salamence's 20.9%. But wait a minute now... Wait else existed in April... OH YEAH! Latias. What are TTar and Scizor again? OH YEAH! Latias counters. What other talent does Latias have? OH YEAH! She was an amazing Salamence check. What is Latias? OH YEAH! She's Uber now.

We cannot begin to make any usage arguments about Salamence until May stats come out.

I'd also like to point out, that even with one of the best Salamence checks in the game being around in April (i.e. one that could come in on 3 out of the 5 attacks Mence uses and destroys it before it has anything to say) it was still Number 3 on the usage list. That's damn impressive.

 

[Ericcc]

Salamence usually has steel-types such as Bronzong as well as Cresselia as checks. Now that Tyranitar usage has gone down significantly I wonder why i haven't seen more Cress compared to before. People are also forgetting that Salamence is 2x weak to SR, and Life Orb/Sandstorm damage takes a huge chunk out of his health (all of those are set up early game).

If people are concerned about banning Salamence because it overcentralizes the metagame (which it hasn't), why not consider banning Scizor as well, since it overcentralizes the game more compared to Salamence. Scizor has counters, but most of the counters can't counter every set that Scizor can run. Same with Salamence; a counter for a DDMence set would probably lose to a MixMence.

Scizor is trapped by Magnezone, and Zapdos can counter it any set it runs rather well.
I'm agreeing with you on the fact that Mence can't even last that long due to all that residual damage though,

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Bolded is a blatant lie.

The best (no longer Shoddy) players I know always run Garchomp. They didn't get over it; they gave up on Shoddy. There are some truely remarkable pokemon players on smashboards that you won't see around here much, but they still use the service for tournaments with their own rulesets.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=275743

The community is stronger than ever. Of course there'd be people against it, and possibly leaving Shoddy. But the community didn't split up, as you said could happen with Mence being banned.


So, my point stands.

 

[Chan]

Eh,
If Mence leaves Mix Ape will run up to #1 on the most used Pokemon list,
And then people would complain about it

Infernape actually has counters. Cresselia, Gyarados, Vaporeon and others all do well to counter it. Infernape can't afford to run recovery, is no where near as bulky as Salamence, and hits for a lot less. Salamence has been complained about a lot, and arguing for it to go into ubers isn't something that came out of thin air.

 

[Demoness]

Uh Steel types can be removed or Salamence can just kill them him self. Cress is 2 hit koed by Draco Meteor Followed by Outrage with Stelth Rock and needs a Scarf to effectively kill Salamence without dying which is getting over specialized for one poke. And i fail to see how Scizor centrelizes the game as much as Mence considering Scizor can't just turn the match into a guessing game and guessing wrong has devstating results.

Edit: directed at Misa

 

[Ericcc]

Infernape actually has counters. Cresselia, Gyarados, Vaporeon and others all do well to counter it. Infernape can't afford to run recovery, is no where near as bulky as Salamence, and hits for a lot less. Salamence has been complained about a lot, and arguing for it to go into ubers isn't something that came out of thin air.

Yep.
I predict HP Elec Ape will be rising in usage too once Mence goes Uber

EDIT: and @ Valkryies, that wasn't my whole argument -__-

 

[BlakBlastoise]

Yep.
I predict HP Elec Ape will be rising in usage too once Mence goes Uber

EDIT: and @ Valkryies, that wasn't my whole argument -__-

Wouldn't people just run ThunderPunch instead? Sure, there's intimidate, but even with -1 attack, physical mix Ape still does a Minimum of 71.4% against the standard Bulky DD Gyara. Since the Gyra will be switching into SR and quite possibly another one of ape's attacks, it will get OHKO'd regardless. The extra 5 base power could also help it with things like Tentacruel and Vaporeon.

 

[Ericcc]

Wouldn't people just run ThunderPunch instead? Sure, there's intimidate, but even with -1 attack, physical mix Ape still does a Minimum of 71.4%. Since the Gyra will be switching into SR and quite possibly another one of ape's attacks, it will get OHKO'd regardless. The extra 5 base power could also help it with things like Tentacruel and Vaporeon.

Hm true,
T-Punch would be more beneficial with Tentacruel instead though, because it wouldn't do squat to Vappy. Since Tentacruel has less defense.
Stone Edge would maybe just be more of a better choice instead then on a Physical Ape.

But with Mence and Latias gone, HP Ice would serve little use in my opinion, only OHKO'ing Gliscor... who still gets really hurt with a LO Fire Blast

 

[JonTheRed]

Anyone who says that Salamence's removal will bring about an age of unending stall is just being silly. Salamence may be the best stallbreaker in OU, but that's because his offensive stats are equal to those of most Pokemon that actually specialize in said stats (i.e., Salamence's Attack is equal to Breloom's, etc.). He's essentially three OU Pokemon in one, so of course he can blast through stall.

But even without him gone, it's not like stall can't be stopped. There are plenty of other Pokemon you can use to break stall; it's just that nobody knows what they are since you currently just add Salamence and never lose to stall.

 

[Ericcc]

Anyone who says that Salamence's removal will bring about an age of unending stall is just being silly. Salamence may be the best stallbreaker in OU, but that's because his offensive stats are equal to those of most Pokemon that actually specialize in said stats (i.e., Salamence's Attack is equal to Breloom's, etc.). He's essentially three OU Pokemon in one, so of course he can blast through stall.

But even without him gone, it's not like stall can't be stopped. There are plenty of other Pokemon you can use to break stall; it's just that nobody knows what they are since you currently just add Salamence and never lose to stall.

Gliscor is amazing when it comes to breaking stall.
However, when it comes to wall breakers, then Salamence is probably one of the best out there (just restating your point here)

 

[JonTheRed]

Gliscor is amazing when it comes to breaking stall.
However, when it comes to wall breakers, then Salamence is probably one of the best out there (just restating your point here)

Crobat's speed, Taunt, and Super Fang also break walls like they were nothing, although a set like that is limited in what else it can do. So, um, Salamence has Crobat's (or Infernape's if you prefer) wall-breaking talent, Breloom's physical presence, Latias' special attacking prowess, Dragonite's type coverage, and Flygon's speed.

See? That's five OU Pokemon, all rolled up into one Salamence-shaped blunt, ready to smoke the competition.