Why would we need another BL tier for pokemon that are too strong for OU but not strong enough for Ubers? Why not just ban them to Ubers and not waste time on wondering which pokemon could fit into that Borderline category?
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The First Smogon Council - Salamence
- Thread starter Aeolus
- Start date
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Well, if there were enough of such pokemon, there could be ladders where:
-one of that tier would be allowed (like letting a level 78 Groudon/Kyogre in like in some previous tournament)
-all would be allowed (a weakened version of Ubers)
If Mamoswine (which, as it has been pointed out CAN OHKO EVERY Salamence build) is seeing such "low usage" then obviously Salamence is not a big enough threat to devote an entire slot to to handle. And sure, you can switch a flying type in on a predicted earthquake but that true of any choice-item Pokemon using a plethora of moves. How often do ScarfTran use Earthpower so you can switch in a flying type? How often do Banded or Scarf Scizors use Bullet Ounch so you can switch in your bulky Water-type?
Bad prediction is hardly an excuse for not using it. You know what is a reason not to use it? Not needing it is a reason. If the Pokemon with Ice Shard are not there it is because people feel they are not needed. If Hippowdon (who sees plenty of usage) opts for Toxic or Roar instead of Ice Fang its because it does not need it.
If Salamence were really that much of a threat to "every single team" with all of these supposed "guaranteed KOs" you would certainly not see a decrease in usage of Mamoswine or Weavile.
Except that neither Weavile nor Mamoswine can switch directly into Mence, they must come in as a revenge killer. And even then, Mence can switch out if the opponent feels that saving it for later is advantageous (especially when I've spun away the rocks, I often just save Mence for later knowing he can come in again after the Ice Sharder of choice goes down)
Before I post my experiences/thoughts…this topic is pretty messy right now. I think it’d be better for the thread if we limited our posts to specific ladder experiences and direct discussions of the Uber Characteristics as they apply to Salamence instead of engaging in all these quote wars with (often) uninformed users. (This is kind of blunt, but I think it needed to be said.)
Anyways, I’ve started playing suspect this past week, and I think most of the previously listed observations have been accurate. Stall is more common than it was before Salamence and Latias were removed from the picture, but it’s not omnipresent like some users implied, and it’s certainly manageable. I’ve been impressed with the spike in Shaymin usage—I imagine it’ll be in the “Suspect OU” range once stats for this round come out. The increased usage makes perfect sense, though, with both of the big Dragons gone. I am kind of surprised I haven’t seen more Celebi. Maybe I haven't played enough yet, or maybe people are just overlooking it for the “indie” Shaymin, but I’d think it’d be every bit as useful, with the ability to Recover without sleeping, spread paralysis, and with Tyranitar dropping after the Latias ban. Other things like Kingdra, Flygon, Dragonite and Zapdos are getting some time in the sun as well. Overall, it’s a very different flavor than the standard OU we’ve all been playing, and I’m not entirely sure which I prefer. While many overlooked pokemon are getting some usage here, this strikes me as a metagame shift, not an expansion. Part of me thinks this’ll wind up every bit as stale (if not moreso) as what we had before, with the token grass/fire/water/fillers lineups dominating the ladder like Nachos and rem predicted earlier. (Before anyone jumps on me for commenting on metagame preferences instead of Uber Characteristics, I’d just like to say that I’m well aware this isn’t what we should base votes off of--I’m simply tossing my two cents into the ring.) Maybe it’ll grow on me, though—I’ll give it some more time.
As far as determining Salamence’s tiering goes, I’m also currently undecided. Salamence seems like the most borderline case we’ve had so far, and I see some truth to the arguments both sides have raised. I’ll have to do some heavy thinking before I reach a conclusion here. One thing I’d like to ask the Uber supporters, though: why exactly would Salamence qualify under the Support Characteristic? To me, for something to fit this definition, the pokemon in question must directly facilitate the sweep of another specific pokemon. I’m not sure what exactly sweeps through teams with consistency after Salamence comes out and “mixes” things up. Enlighten me if I’m missing something, but this point seems to be more of a “Salamence can deal lots of damage with proper prediction but this doesn’t really fit under the Offensive Characteristic so we’re just going to bundle it in with Support” thing than anything else. I suppose you could make the case that Salamence weakens Steels for another lesser Dragon to exploit later on, but since Salamence doesn’t really control what it hits (unlike, say, Magnezone or ScarfTar, two other key supporters/sweep pavers), that doesn’t strike me as a very convincing argument. If anyone wants to defend the Support Characteristic viewpoint, feel free—I’m mostly just curious about the justification you guys have for it. If I was going to argue Salamence was Uber, I think I’d take the Offensive Characteristic route. That way you have DD Mence to work with, and on top of that, MixMence looks like it could even arguably fit this. The Mix set obviously isn’t sweeping things in one go, but it can wreck nearly every switch-in with appropriate prediction, its 100 base speed allows it to outpace a fair portion of the metagame, and it can run away from faster threats/roadblocks and recover the residual damage with Roost next time it comes in, mitigating that point. It doesn’t instantly run through things in one outing like Garchomp did, but a well-played one looks like it could dismantle teams pretty efficiently. That seems more in line with Offensive than Support to me, but I’m all ears if anyone disagrees. Again, I’m impartial for the time being—neither pro-OU nor pro-Uber. For the time being, I’m just interested in seeing some of these arguments fleshed out a little further.
Anyways, I’ve started playing suspect this past week, and I think most of the previously listed observations have been accurate. Stall is more common than it was before Salamence and Latias were removed from the picture, but it’s not omnipresent like some users implied, and it’s certainly manageable. I’ve been impressed with the spike in Shaymin usage—I imagine it’ll be in the “Suspect OU” range once stats for this round come out. The increased usage makes perfect sense, though, with both of the big Dragons gone. I am kind of surprised I haven’t seen more Celebi. Maybe I haven't played enough yet, or maybe people are just overlooking it for the “indie” Shaymin, but I’d think it’d be every bit as useful, with the ability to Recover without sleeping, spread paralysis, and with Tyranitar dropping after the Latias ban. Other things like Kingdra, Flygon, Dragonite and Zapdos are getting some time in the sun as well. Overall, it’s a very different flavor than the standard OU we’ve all been playing, and I’m not entirely sure which I prefer. While many overlooked pokemon are getting some usage here, this strikes me as a metagame shift, not an expansion. Part of me thinks this’ll wind up every bit as stale (if not moreso) as what we had before, with the token grass/fire/water/fillers lineups dominating the ladder like Nachos and rem predicted earlier. (Before anyone jumps on me for commenting on metagame preferences instead of Uber Characteristics, I’d just like to say that I’m well aware this isn’t what we should base votes off of--I’m simply tossing my two cents into the ring.) Maybe it’ll grow on me, though—I’ll give it some more time.
As far as determining Salamence’s tiering goes, I’m also currently undecided. Salamence seems like the most borderline case we’ve had so far, and I see some truth to the arguments both sides have raised. I’ll have to do some heavy thinking before I reach a conclusion here. One thing I’d like to ask the Uber supporters, though: why exactly would Salamence qualify under the Support Characteristic? To me, for something to fit this definition, the pokemon in question must directly facilitate the sweep of another specific pokemon. I’m not sure what exactly sweeps through teams with consistency after Salamence comes out and “mixes” things up. Enlighten me if I’m missing something, but this point seems to be more of a “Salamence can deal lots of damage with proper prediction but this doesn’t really fit under the Offensive Characteristic so we’re just going to bundle it in with Support” thing than anything else. I suppose you could make the case that Salamence weakens Steels for another lesser Dragon to exploit later on, but since Salamence doesn’t really control what it hits (unlike, say, Magnezone or ScarfTar, two other key supporters/sweep pavers), that doesn’t strike me as a very convincing argument. If anyone wants to defend the Support Characteristic viewpoint, feel free—I’m mostly just curious about the justification you guys have for it. If I was going to argue Salamence was Uber, I think I’d take the Offensive Characteristic route. That way you have DD Mence to work with, and on top of that, MixMence looks like it could even arguably fit this. The Mix set obviously isn’t sweeping things in one go, but it can wreck nearly every switch-in with appropriate prediction, its 100 base speed allows it to outpace a fair portion of the metagame, and it can run away from faster threats/roadblocks and recover the residual damage with Roost next time it comes in, mitigating that point. It doesn’t instantly run through things in one outing like Garchomp did, but a well-played one looks like it could dismantle teams pretty efficiently. That seems more in line with Offensive than Support to me, but I’m all ears if anyone disagrees. Again, I’m impartial for the time being—neither pro-OU nor pro-Uber. For the time being, I’m just interested in seeing some of these arguments fleshed out a little further.
Not if you're locked into Outrage which is at least half of the reason everyone is qq-ing about Salamence in the first place.
And don't say "well if it's got 2 DDs up Dragon Claw is just as good." Because you know what else sweeps with +2 Att&Spe? Only EVERYTHING.
Yes, a +1 Outrage is dangerous to switch in on. It's also dangerous when Kingdra does it. Hell, it is dangerous to switch into an unboosted scarf Flygon's Outrage with anything but a Steel type. That is hardly a valid argument.
Yes, a +1 Outrage is dangerous to switch in on. It's also dangerous when Kingdra does it. Hell, it is dangerous to switch into an unboosted scarf Flygon's Outrage with anything but a Steel type
Except Salamence has 40 more base Attack points than Kingdra and 35 more than Flygon. I'd say that makes Salamence's Outrages much more dangerous. And don't bother with the obvious Dragonite counter, since Dragonite lacks Salamence's Speed; at +1, it is very, very hard to revenge Salamence without taking one or two big hits from Outrage, whereas Dragonite can be easily revenged by things.
ETA:
232 Naive Life Orb Salamence +1 Outrage
vs. 4/0 Jolly Choice Scarf Jirachi : 56.9% - 66.9%
252 Adamant Leftovers Kingdra +1 Outrage
vs. 4/0 Jolly Choice Scarf Jirachi : 37.8% - 44.9%
252 Jolly Choice Scarf Flygon Outrage
vs. 4/0 Jolly Choice Scarf Jirachi : 23.8% - 28.2%
I used Scarf Jirachi as an example because it ties with both Salamence and Flygon, and as a bulkyish Steel-type, it is often used to revenge / tank Outrages / maybe even switch in. See how Salamence just hits that much harder, even as Naive? You can't accurately compare slow, comparatively weak Kingdra Outrage with Salamence's.
Thank you for a well-reasoned, mature, and intelligent post. Offensive best fits Dragon Dance Salamence, imo, since it can sweep through a significant portion of the metagame (verbatim); the reasoning behind Support as justification for an offensive ban best fits the likes of Latias. Mixmence is more of an interesting case; on one side, you have the fact that Salamence does not directly facilitate sweeps of a specific Pokémon. What Mixmence does is a support role, though -- it kills walls with relative ease, which is an immense help for pretty much any sweeper. I'm not going to get into the whole tired-out discussion of prediction and no good switches or anything... but as an abstract concept, I'd say Support fits Mixmence better than Offense, because Mixmence is more easily revenged and often has to switch after Draco Meteoring something, so it doesn't really sweep per se (though obviously Mixmence can sweep, it's not its primary function or how it is played). It does, however, open up significant holes for other Pokémon. I'm not going to go into direct examples, since this post is more about why Support rather than why Salamence is über.
Except Salamence has 40 more base Attack points than Kingdra and 35 more than Flygon. I'd say that makes Salamence's Outrages much more dangerous. And don't bother with the obvious Dragonite counter, since Dragonite lacks Salamence's Speed; at +1, it is very, very hard to revenge Salamence without taking one or two big hits from Outrage, whereas Dragonite can be easily revenged by things.
ETA:
232 Naive Life Orb Salamence +1 Outrage
vs. 4/0 Jolly Choice Scarf Jirachi : 56.9% - 66.9%
252 Adamant Leftovers Kingdra +1 Outrage
vs. 4/0 Jolly Choice Scarf Jirachi : 37.8% - 44.9%
252 Jolly Choice Scarf Flygon Outrage
vs. 4/0 Jolly Choice Scarf Jirachi : 23.8% - 28.2%
I used Scarf Jirachi as an example because it ties with both Salamence and Flygon, and as a bulkyish Steel-type, it is often used to revenge / tank Outrages / maybe even switch in. See how Salamence just hits that much harder, even as Naive? You can't accurately compare slow, comparatively weak Kingdra Outrage with Salamence's.
El Blecko said:
Thank you for a well-reasoned, mature, and intelligent post. Offensive best fits Dragon Dance Salamence, imo, since it can sweep through a significant portion of the metagame (verbatim); the reasoning behind Support as justification for an offensive ban best fits the likes of Latias. Mixmence is more of an interesting case; on one side, you have the fact that Salamence does not directly facilitate sweeps of a specific Pokémon. What Mixmence does is a support role, though -- it kills walls with relative ease, which is an immense help for pretty much any sweeper. I'm not going to get into the whole tired-out discussion of prediction and no good switches or anything... but as an abstract concept, I'd say Support fits Mixmence better than Offense, because Mixmence is more easily revenged and often has to switch after Draco Meteoring something, so it doesn't really sweep per se (though obviously Mixmence can sweep, it's not its primary function or how it is played). It does, however, open up significant holes for other Pokémon. I'm not going to go into direct examples, since this post is more about why Support rather than why Salamence is über.
See the problem with using Mamoswine (and Weavile) is Salamence has by then taken at least one member of your team already, so any other revenge killer can do the same job. A Siczor (if Salamence is ~60%), a scarfed Gengar, Infernape, or ect. can do the same job and has more use outside koing a Salamence (if your opponent actually has one) That is most likely the reason why not many people use Mamo or Weavile. (outside of being complete Scizor bait). And the fact that they both are still in OU given the massive amount of Metagame against them should in fact speak to how much Salamence has effected their usage.
Also Hipowdon isn't a Salamence counter in any form at all.
Code:
Naive Life Orb Salamence +1 Outrage
vs. Impish Leftovers Hippowdon : 63.1% - 74.5%
Rash Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor
vs. Impish Leftovers Hippowdon : 80.7% - 95%For those who are waondering how Salamence can be considered broken under the Support
Caractoristitic when a Mixmence attacks something is going to take a large amount of damage lets say that Swampert (a large number of people's first switch) took a Draco Meteor, Swampert is very low on health (or Koed if Salamence attacks again), now the Salamence user's T-Tar has a much better match up against the opposing team, or in other words Salamence has made it much, much easier for another member to sweep.
EDIT: beaten :(
Not to be a mini-mod or anything but isn't this thread for dissucusing metagame expeirences not if Salamence is unstoppable.
Because people like me are convinced Salamence is OU, and refuse to recognize a standard metagame where Salamence is banned. We also refuse to recognize a standard metagame if Kyogre and Mewtwo are in it, which is why Ubers is the least popular tier in shoddy.
If it was just one pokemon, I might agree that a tier isn't warrented. But now we have quite a number of OU pokemon banned to Ubers; Garchomp, Latias, Manaphy (arguably), Wobbuffet (but he really is that good), and we are in Salamence discussions.
If you want to play UU with tougher pokemon, I don't care and won't stop you. But I want to play Standard, not UU plus and not Ubers.
I think it's worth noting that the amount of discussion indicates Smogon is very divided. Actually banning Salamence guarentees the community will be ripped in two when the opposition against a Salamence ban is as strong as it is. This isn't a democracy, it's a battling community, and as bad as salamence might be for balance and diversity, losing all the people who don't want to see Salamence banned would be much worse. You absolutely need consensus on a ban.
Is Salamence so bad it's really worth slicing up the community?
If you super-pro leaderboard guys are consistently in battles where Salamence gets 2 or 3 KOs on important Pokemon and/or is the lategame sweeper and/or is constantly the center of attention, or if you use Pokemon/moves that you don't want to just to stop Salamence and not much else (and thus, don't use it on the suspect ladder), then that's definitely something to be considering banning it for.
But if it usually just knocks out one important Pokemon (one that wasn't already death fodder), and then goes down itself, or even lets you set up on it after a kill (Outrage), and you didn't use an overall crappy Pokemon or insane pivot switching/prediction to make it happen, that sounds completely fair.
You tell me what's really going on up there, and I'll know what side I'm on based on that.
I'm just tired of hearing "one kill per game" and "2HKOs everything with a stat boost" as arguments for brokenness, because to be honest they make Salamence sound like a pretty normal 4th gen offensive Pokemon. Remember, your opponent loses a key team member when Salamence dies, too.
EDIT:
But if it usually just knocks out one important Pokemon (one that wasn't already death fodder), and then goes down itself, or even lets you set up on it after a kill (Outrage), and you didn't use an overall crappy Pokemon or insane pivot switching/prediction to make it happen, that sounds completely fair.
You tell me what's really going on up there, and I'll know what side I'm on based on that.
I'm just tired of hearing "one kill per game" and "2HKOs everything with a stat boost" as arguments for brokenness, because to be honest they make Salamence sound like a pretty normal 4th gen offensive Pokemon. Remember, your opponent loses a key team member when Salamence dies, too.
EDIT:
I hope not.
That arguement can go both ways. If the pro-banning sidewants if banned while the no-banning side doesn't, either way someone isn't getting what they want. And if someone wants to leave because Salamence is (or isn't) banned, they probally weren't helping the metagame at all any way.
Plus, this has nothing at all to do with Salamence being broken or not.
Let me give you an example. You just switched your Gliscor in against my Lucario who used Close Combat for around 20%, I then switched in my Salamence on the Earthquake or Roost, then either Gliscor will switch out in fear of Draco Meteor, (or if your ballsy stay in expecting a DD) I use Draco Meteor as it is likely the safest move, what can you switch in except fodder (which isn't as likely as you think it is) that isn't koed, and is faster, and can ko back.
btw good luck setting up on an outrage that can 2ko a specially def. Skarm.
Most offensive pokes can't claim this, Gengar doesn't get an auto-kill a game, neither does an Infernape, especially with all these Starmie around, please back up your claims before saying your right.
Splitting the tiers up more isn't going to solve anything. We go with the people who demonstrate knowledge of the metagame and "poll" them. That's about as good a solution as you can find without spending years trying to find a consensus (because it will take that long, guaranteed). If you think that Ninjask is "broken" enough to be in this hypothetical "AU" tier, or that Mamaswine and Weavile are perfect counters to Salamence, you obviously haven't demonstrated the required knowledge and it's fortunate that you don't get to decide on Salamence's tiering.
Concerning the characteristics, I've taken to treating the Support Characteristic as a mish-mosh of different roles that a Pokémon could play "too well". e.g. MixMence would fit under a "Wallbreaker Characteristic" (well, it's more than a wallbreaker, but bear with me here), which would be a form of the Support Characteristic.
Concerning the characteristics, I've taken to treating the Support Characteristic as a mish-mosh of different roles that a Pokémon could play "too well". e.g. MixMence would fit under a "Wallbreaker Characteristic" (well, it's more than a wallbreaker, but bear with me here), which would be a form of the Support Characteristic.
Actually, it is in practice a one-way arguement. The pro-ban side is already active and recognizes the current metagame as legitimate while not content with every aspect of it. The anti-ban side will often refuse to recognize a new metagame as legitimate and stay with the old, more traditional metagame. Garchomp, a much more game-centralizing force than Salamence, to this day has an old guard that will only host Standard level tournaments in which he is legal. In that sense they didn't leave; they simply refuse to play by rules they don't agree with, while generally speaking, the pro-ban side is willing to play by the original ruleset. Pro-ban would have had to in order to realize something might be ban-worthy in the first place.
Do you really think you have the right to influence such a huge decision if you if you're incapable or can't even bothered to address the other side's stance before you go out guns ablaze demanding conformity?
It's not enough to say "I don't want Salamence banned", you have to back it up with sound, logical arguments and proper playing experience. There are some of us busting our ass just to have our voices heard in the decision making process and for you to burst through the doors claiming that your side deserves a say without bringing anything to the table is almost laughable.
If Outrage is a problem with Pokemon not being able to switch into Salamence, then we should ban sets with Outrage and not ban the Pokemon all together. This would make it easier for Pokemon to come in and scare Salamence away. We can keep it to how it was back in D/P, where his only option was Dragon Claw.
I don't know too much, and I haven't battled in years. I'm not 100% sure of how much of a threat Salamence is because I've only fought a handful of them, but it seems like people don't want to lose a Pokemon to Outrage so they can scare Salamence away without being forced to do a revenge kill.
I don't know, just throwing my two cents into the debate. Please don't reply with ten paragraph long explanations to why I'm an idiot, since I haven't really battled in years.
I don't know too much, and I haven't battled in years. I'm not 100% sure of how much of a threat Salamence is because I've only fought a handful of them, but it seems like people don't want to lose a Pokemon to Outrage so they can scare Salamence away without being forced to do a revenge kill.
I don't know, just throwing my two cents into the debate. Please don't reply with ten paragraph long explanations to why I'm an idiot, since I haven't really battled in years.
@ Scissors: Pokemon and move-specific bans aren't worth the effort it takes to implement. We could balance the entire game if we wanted to, but then it wouldn't be the same game and we won't have the right to claim Smogon as a competitive Pokemon immunity.
Plus, it's a very applicable case of the slippery slope argument. We definitely won't stop at Salamence once we discover the power to alter the game at will; Wobbuffet with Shadow Tag is not broken and neither would Garchomp be with an SD, Yache Berry, and Sand Veil ban. But these alterations don't change the fact that we're compromising the integrity of the original game by changing the Pokemon themselves, especially since it's easier and more logical to ban the Pokemon themselves.
Plus, it's a very applicable case of the slippery slope argument. We definitely won't stop at Salamence once we discover the power to alter the game at will; Wobbuffet with Shadow Tag is not broken and neither would Garchomp be with an SD, Yache Berry, and Sand Veil ban. But these alterations don't change the fact that we're compromising the integrity of the original game by changing the Pokemon themselves, especially since it's easier and more logical to ban the Pokemon themselves.
What claims? For the majority of the post I was just asking which description of Salamence's performance in your battles is more accurate. Strike the setup part from the record or replace it with "free turn" or "an opportunity to not die", but I didn't really try to say I was right or wrong about anything. Salamence is only absolutely guaranteed a kill or two if you have nothing on your team faster than it, though, since it can just quickly 2HKO your potential switch-ins. Otherwise you can play around it (not that it isn't risky, perhaps overly so)
Even when I accept that I apparently shouldn't be judging the metagame and ask someone else's opinion, I still get attacked. Why do I bother posting here?
I like how the Skarmory being used against Mence in your example is conveniently a 0 Def one...
Scarftran/rachi? I know there aren't many candidates though... Game Freak was pretty stupid not making a single Steel type over 100 speed. Is it overcentralizing to have these on your team or lose a Pokemon? Maybe... what do you think?
I'd really like some responses to this:
If you super-pro leaderboard guys are consistently in battles where Salamence gets 2 or 3 KOs on important Pokemon and/or is the lategame sweeper and/or is constantly the center of attention, or if you use Pokemon/moves that you don't want to just to stop Salamence and not much else (and thus, don't use it on the suspect ladder), then that's definitely something to be considering banning it for.
But if it usually just knocks out one important Pokemon (one that wasn't already death fodder), and then goes down itself, and you didn't use an overall crappy Pokemon or insane pivot switching/prediction to make it happen, that sounds completely fair.
You tell me what's really going on up there, and I'll know what side I'm on based on that.
But if it usually just knocks out one important Pokemon (one that wasn't already death fodder), and then goes down itself, and you didn't use an overall crappy Pokemon or insane pivot switching/prediction to make it happen, that sounds completely fair.
You tell me what's really going on up there, and I'll know what side I'm on based on that.
as for 'causing a rip in the community', let me assure you guys that los of the good players I've talked to support it's placement in über. we talk about mence a lot in #stark, and the users who do think it's ou are few, but at least they can put together coherent and well thought arguments for its tier placement. banning mence won't cause much ofna rip in the community. I see a few noons and bad players leaving, which isn't a bad thing at all...
scissors125, the 'banning outrage' factor is being discussed in policy review right now, you should follow that argument.
scissors125, the 'banning outrage' factor is being discussed in policy review right now, you should follow that argument.
so, why dont we ban outrage?.
Megahorn 120 power, 85 acc, hits 11 types. exclusive move.
Flareblitz 120 power, 100 acc, hits 12 types recoil damage, uncommon move.
Bravebird 120 power, 100 acc, hits 14 types, recoil damage, uncommon move.
Close combat, 120 power, 100 acc, hits 10 types, lowers def and spdef, uncommon move.
(...)
Outrage, 120 power, 100 acc, hits 16 TYPES, "A rampage of 2 or 3 turns, and you switch the pokemon", Common, All dragons have access to it.
even the devastating draco meteor have 10% to fail, and leaves the dragons with half the options that they were in the beginning.
dragons wont be suffering to much, they have dragon claw instead of outrage,
its like lowering their attack. (yes, ban OUTRAGE FROM THE GAME)
im just trying to make a point, please correct me if im wrong.
Megahorn 120 power, 85 acc, hits 11 types. exclusive move.
Flareblitz 120 power, 100 acc, hits 12 types recoil damage, uncommon move.
Bravebird 120 power, 100 acc, hits 14 types, recoil damage, uncommon move.
Close combat, 120 power, 100 acc, hits 10 types, lowers def and spdef, uncommon move.
(...)
Outrage, 120 power, 100 acc, hits 16 TYPES, "A rampage of 2 or 3 turns, and you switch the pokemon", Common, All dragons have access to it.
even the devastating draco meteor have 10% to fail, and leaves the dragons with half the options that they were in the beginning.
dragons wont be suffering to much, they have dragon claw instead of outrage,
its like lowering their attack. (yes, ban OUTRAGE FROM THE GAME)
im just trying to make a point, please correct me if im wrong.
You are wrong...
jk jk.
Anyway, many dragons depend on Outrage, and banning it for the sake of one poke will make them unviable. However this isn't the ideal plave to talk 'bout this.
You really, really, really wasn't here back when people started discussing Garchomp. The animosity levels were much bigger, and even then the community wasn't about to "be sliced up".
It got banned in the end, and people got over it. We had Stage 3 a few months later where it was retested and re-discussed (as there are good players/debaters out there who think it's OU), but it was considered Uber once more. And the community is still pretty solid after that.
In the Suspect metagame, Uxie is turning out to be a good lead. It can Trick a Choice Scarf to the very common bulky leads, especially Swampert, and then can set up Stealth Rock. Uxie usually gets an opprotunity to set up SR, but is not slow or fragile the way many other consistent SR users are. Aerodactyl, a problematic lead for Uxie, is practically nonexistant of the Suspect ladder, and the absolute number one threat to Uxie, Scarf/Band Tar, is less common. Scizor, another factor that used to limit Uxie's success, has dropped as well. These factors combined mean that OU has never been more hospitable to Uxie. If Salamence ends up banned, Uxie could even go up to OU.
I know I'm really REALLY late on this but someone just linked this post from a few weeks back on gamefaqs and I felt the need to post a rebuttal to it as I'm assuming a lot of the arguments for mence being uber are the same.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2686077#post2686077
This 'magic take down everything mence' that he's describing could only exist if the player has designed their entire team with mence as the main sweeper and a mence sweep as the main objective - a perfectly reasonable strategy for an offensive player.
He also mentions it having two items - he talks about "lefties recovery" and then goes on to say that in a different situation THE SAME MENCE could have its "Yache Berry [that] weakens the effect of Ice Shard"
"Outrage spam takes out more and more of your team until it's GG."
There are LOADS of things in OU that a DD boosted outrage won't even scratch. And you can't exactly 'spam' outrage when you get confused by it after (at the most) 3 turns. Want to cure confusion? You can either switch (which means you take an extra 25% damage from rocks AND lose your DD) or you can use your Lum Berry, it already has two items, why not give it a third?
Now, returning to my earlier point.
"Salamence switches out for Weavile while Scarf Starmie uses Ice Beam. weavile takes 30% Damage from Rocks and Beam. Checkmates the Starmie with Pursuit. With some wish support Salamence can come back out as he pleases."
and later on
Magnezone Says hi to Steel types that switch in to Outrage too.
So thats THREE, coun't 'em, THREE other pokemon that are in this fictional team for the sole purpose of supporting a mence sweep plus the mence itself and the player then only has two other slots, this mence isn't going to have very good coverage (seeing as it apparently has substitute, dragon dance and outrage - it gets to pick one other attacking move for coverage) so those other two slots would almost certainly be backup sweepers, probably something with priority to finish off what mence started.
Oh and lets not forget that if it wants to do serious damage it needs a Life Orb, how many items did it have by this point? I've lost count.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2686077#post2686077
This 'magic take down everything mence' that he's describing could only exist if the player has designed their entire team with mence as the main sweeper and a mence sweep as the main objective - a perfectly reasonable strategy for an offensive player.
He also mentions it having two items - he talks about "lefties recovery" and then goes on to say that in a different situation THE SAME MENCE could have its "Yache Berry [that] weakens the effect of Ice Shard"
"Outrage spam takes out more and more of your team until it's GG."
There are LOADS of things in OU that a DD boosted outrage won't even scratch. And you can't exactly 'spam' outrage when you get confused by it after (at the most) 3 turns. Want to cure confusion? You can either switch (which means you take an extra 25% damage from rocks AND lose your DD) or you can use your Lum Berry, it already has two items, why not give it a third?
Now, returning to my earlier point.
"Salamence switches out for Weavile while Scarf Starmie uses Ice Beam. weavile takes 30% Damage from Rocks and Beam. Checkmates the Starmie with Pursuit. With some wish support Salamence can come back out as he pleases."
and later on
Magnezone Says hi to Steel types that switch in to Outrage too.
So thats THREE, coun't 'em, THREE other pokemon that are in this fictional team for the sole purpose of supporting a mence sweep plus the mence itself and the player then only has two other slots, this mence isn't going to have very good coverage (seeing as it apparently has substitute, dragon dance and outrage - it gets to pick one other attacking move for coverage) so those other two slots would almost certainly be backup sweepers, probably something with priority to finish off what mence started.
Oh and lets not forget that if it wants to do serious damage it needs a Life Orb, how many items did it have by this point? I've lost count.
Yea, I don't think Yache Mence is a viable argument. Only 5.4% of total Salamences on shoddy used Yache Berry (http://cap.smogon.com/ShoddyStats/2010-04/Smogon-201004-Details-Standard.html)
All is not lost for Ice Shard Weavile/Swine.
All is not lost for Ice Shard Weavile/Swine.
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