The First Smogon Council - Salamence

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You have no reason to say that i don't know what i'm talking about, seeing as you have absolutely no idea who i am >_>

Swampert can surive +1 Outrage, and hit with ice beam for the KO.
Mence is Uber argument: If Swampert is in against Mence who's +1DD, then I'm assuming you came in after one of your Pokemon was already killed. In this case, Mence has already killed one of your Pokemon (not good). After you switch in, the Mence would just switch out, would it not? Therefore, your statement is invalid because if Mence sees a Pert, it wouldn't try to Outrage, but instead would switch out, eventually coming in later in the game to wreck more stuff.

Mence is OU argument: If you predict correctly and switch into a Dragon Dance, then good job and good prediction. After that, you can live an Outrage and OHKO with Ice Beam. If the Mence were to decide to switch out, then it's already taken LO and SR damage, only to switch in again sometime later in the game to take even more SR damage, after which point priority moves will make it easy to take down (Scizor). Therefore, your statement is valid, because Swampert can OHKO Mence when it's in the right situation, and is an efficient counter.
 
So, what exactly happens if I don't use Outrage? Does that mean that you lose? I mean, you switch your Swampert into my +1 Salamence that just used Earthquake. Then I switch out. What exactly forces me to use Outrage rather than just switch out? I suppose Stealth Rocks would wound it, but it doesn't stop it from coming in again one more time, assuming Sandstorm and recoil and all that gets it down below 25%.

Draco Meteor also isn't very nice to Swampert. Almost any pokemon can threaten Salamence if it can take one hit and KO after it has already taken out a pokemon. We aren't arguing that you can't revenge kill Salamence. The argument being made is that by the time you know which Salamence it is, the single prediction you made in response to it coming in is in favor of Salamence, and a pokemon shouldn't have a significant advantage just from being included on a team.

Also, according to the usage statistics, a very feasible moveset for Salamence could include Dragon Dance AND Draco Meteor, as a sort of Chainchomp style bait tactic. Very good coverage is still achieved by Outrage/Fire Blast/Draco Meteor, and a Draco Meteor at +1 speed is better than no boost at all.
 
You have no reason to say that i don't know what i'm talking about, seeing as you have absolutely no idea who i am >_>

And i'm not saying that those pokemon cant be completely walled, i'm just saying that i dont see them as any less of a threat than salamence, same with Heatran, Gyara, and Tyranitar as well. Scizor can be easily taken care of with having to "wall" it. All it takes is a little prediction, and skill. You can easily lock a salamence into outrage 9:10 times if you know what you are doing. then switch in something that takes outrage, and viola! no more salamence. BP Scizor can take chunks of his health off, and ScarfStarmie makes salamence call it daddy (or mommy). Swampert can surive +1 Outrage, and hit with ice beam for the KO. Gyara hurts it with intimidate, and IF salamence attack, again is locked into outrage because it cant EQ or FB vs. a Gyara, and Bulky Gyara can take a Draco meteor. Theseare just SOME scenarios in which salamence can be taken down. So i dont know why everyone is complaining, it really isnt that bad.
Sorry if my previous post offended you, I had a bad day yesterday, but my point was that most of the times Salamence puts you in a tough spot whenever he manages to switch in, Swampert can't take 2 Draco Meteors from a Mixed variant and some DD variants carry it (though I admit thats forcing it, lets leave it at the mixed ones). Gyarados hates Draco Meteors too and bulky ones survive only sometimes taking SR into account if Smogon's calculator isn't broken.

Now all this doesn't mean that I think that Salamence is uber or anything, just poiting the fact that he requires more clever playing that most of other threats for the bare reason that what screws DD'ers is screwed by Mixeds and the other way around (excluding Cress, of course), but I do think he is perfectly manageable if you know what you're doing.
 
Why is "clever playing" a bad thing? I guess a dumbed down meta with the biggest threat being Heatran is something half the people in this thread is striving for. If Salamence promotes playing smart, then that is healthy. The Suspect latter, at the moment, is hard countering, takes-500-turns, Toxic wars with Celebi leech seeding, Blissey Heal Belling, and bulkyDos DDing until resident said Celebi appears and Twaves (lol).

Salamence is perfectly manageable. He might kill a Pokemon, but any one Pokemon may do that. Sure, he has high damage output, and so do others. He is royally screwed by priority / entry hazards / SS / LO. By several Scarfed Pokemon at even +1. You have to be prepared to deal with Salamence, and complaining that you have to use your team slots to do so is absurd. You prepare for Infernape, and Gyarados. Kingdra and Heatran. Like Chou said, six slots can't counter EVERYTHING, but you'll still use them to check the top threats.
 

SJCrew

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then switch in something that takes outrage, and viola! no more salamence.
Common misconception. If your token Steel happens to be Skarmory or CM Jirachi, you're still not going to stop it. And your Steel type has to be completely healthy or faster than Salamence with a move to KO before you start switching into Outrages and get 2HKOed.
 

Jumpman16

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Not only was that not an assumptions stated at any point in the intro nor within discussion, but that is also a pretty absurd claim to make. The "definitions", if you want to call them that, are guide lines at best-- and they no direct relevancy as to defining "fun," which in and of itself is not definable. The ideal meta, the meta that would be most fun, is simply a matter of opinion and up to preferences.
This has already been largely addressed by others, but just to be clear about this—nothing we do relating to pokemon Policy is in the direct interest of fun. Nothing. Arriving at a "more fun" metagame will always require some roundabout, completely subjective route. It's not even in Doug's Characteristics of a more desirable metagame, a thread I know you posted in with the same thoughts but one where I specifically addressed the notion of fun with respect to competition:

The infamous words of Herm Edwards have never been more applicable: "You play to win the game". It's going to be hard to argue against this and appeal to "fun", in my opinion....Everything that is remotely competitive can be perceived as "too serious or cutthroat".
While I am perfectly (happily) willing to accept the opinions (and thus judgement) of the council (and yes the characteristics will play a role here), there is nothing wrong about discussing individual opinions within this thread-- indeed, that could be considered the whole point of this thread.
You're exactly right. That is what this thread is for, and I am very willing to skim through this thread like I have been for the last three weeks looking for intelligent thoughts and opinions. Not much more is going to come from this thread though—Aeolus and I certainly won't be handpicking anyone who's posted in this thread for the council, let alone attempt to actually critically read a soon–80-page rough thread looking for such diamonds.

BTW-- when will this council be getting together? If they decide on salamence's tiering 3 months from now, it'll make this thread/test REALLY irrelevant (except for people who remain die-hard gen 4 fans even after gen 5 takes center stage).
This line of thinking has been cut many times before—finalizing tiers for Gen IV will always be relevant. A decent Gen V simulator will likely not be completed for another good 18 months from now, assuming only nontrivial mechanics changes (which is a bad assumption actually), meaning people will be playing Gen IV for a long time after the Council reaches its decision on Salamence. Regardless, it's not going to take three months to decide on its tiering, lol...where did you pull that figure out of? I am on record stating that one of the main purposes of the council is expediting and streamlining the Suspect Test Process—the first iteration of the Council would be a monumental failure in that respect if it took four full months to decide on one pokemon.
 
I haven't read all the other comments but I think banning Salamence or even thinking of testing it is out of order. First Garchomp, then Latias and now this. Are we going to be left we no dragons to play with? Salamence has been used for so long now that it just makes very little sense to ban it.

Has there even been any really complaints about it? If anything ban Scizor or Heatran. Hell why not Suicune whilst you're at it!

I highly doubt Salamence will even get banned because of the use of sandstorm and entry hazards and the fact that it isn't invincible and very easy to take down. Just about everything in OU has a set or two that can easily counter Salamence. I sort of agree with Latias's banning considering just about every team had it and it's annoying speed tie with Gengar. It just gets a tad monotonous having to battle the same pokemon over and over again. Now that Latias is out the way, Salamence should come back now it's counter has gone.
 
Just before the flame starts, you haven't read any comments, as far as I can tell. Everything you say has been contested and destroyed in probably every page of this thread. There are no counters to Salamence, nothing that can switch into it's moves, and there is no point in your argument about banning all the dragons.

Latias is not a counter for Salamence, as two of it's four moves will hit it for a OHKO. It's a revenge killer, and revenge killing is not countering.
 
Check this out. Salamence after a dragon dance can effect Uber environment this bad. Let's take a look:

Outrage against Choice Scarf Palkia:269.2% - 316.5%
Outrage against The Great Wall Giratina:98.2% - 116.1%
Outrage against Spiker Deoxys-D:80.3% - 94.7%
Outrage against The Great Wall Lugia:70.7% - 83.2%
Outrage against WishBliss Blissey:98.5% - 116%
Outrage against Ubers Wisher Blissey:117.8% - 138.7%
Outrage against Mixed Attacker Dialga:88.9% - 105.1%
Earthquake against Mixed Attacker Dialga:99.7% - 117.5%
Fire Blast against Specially Defensive Forretress:139% - 163.8%

And how many things are going to stop him from Outraging? Only Forretress, and that's about it:33.3% - 39.5% on Physically Defensive Forretress.
 
Although you people DO pose valid arguements, i still am not convinced that salamence belongs in the uber environment. My original point was that although i do agree salamence is a very formidable foe, even in the uber environment, I in no way see salamence as too much a threat for the OU environment.

My point in my previous post was that if you predict the DD, good. If it doesnt DD, and decides to attack, it USUALLY cant hit hard enough to destroy your salamence counter/ check. Then, its forced to switch (or locked into outrage, and easy enough to deal with then) and takes stealth rock if it switches in again, and by now (especially with life orb) can be easily picked off.

While new and/or unpreparred battlers may be destroyed by salamence,(Not saying that ANYONE can't be) an experienced battler SHOULD be able to take care of Salamence. (Again, not saying he always will be taken care of, but if you think about it, A LOT of poke's can sweep an entire team if not played right, or without the appropriate counter.)

Like I said, while a lot of you do have very good points, i still dont believe Salamence is too much for OU. But it really isnt me that needs to be convinced, seeing as my opinion has no effect on Salamence's possible "promotion" anyway. :P
 
I'll keep this post short since I do not need a whole paragraph to emphaze my point. Almost all of you guys who post for Mence to stay OU keep on hamering on "prediction". Prediction isn't a reliable counter, but a bit of guess work. Gueassing is gambling, and this is not reliable.
 
A LOT of poke's can sweep an entire team if not played right, or without the appropriate counter.
Key point: almost no one has the appropriate counter when it comes to Salamence. Everyone has to gamble and play around him like a threat they were unprepared for, no matter how solid their team is. Is that fair? (Honest question, not automatic no)
 
Key point: almost no one has the appropriate counter when it comes to Salamence. Everyone has to gamble and play around him like a threat they were unprepared for, no matter how solid their team is. Is that fair? (Honest question, not automatic no)
Okay, i know there is no one PERFECT counter for Salamence, I have already said that. All i'm saying is that if you KNOW what you're doing, even a decent battler can stop salamence in it's tracks. As i stated before, IMO (which doesnt really matter honestly) I do not see Salamence as a pokemon that is too powerful for OU play. While he is definitely a VERY powerful pokemon, he isn't too much to handle for a battler that has even a liitle skill, and decent pokemon knowledge. And if you ask me, He is in NO way QUITE powerful enough for the uber environment. While he does boast a hefty 135 Atk, and access to DD, He is completely outclassed in Ubers. I'm not saying he won't be used, and maybe even used well in the right hands, but 135 Atk when you only have 100 Speed to boast isn't much in the Uber environment. Other that the fact that Salamence has intimidate, it's role in OU is nearly 100% outclassed by rayquaza (although they DO have the same speed).
 
For the last time, since so many people can't understand this basic idea.

A Pokemon's potential performance / usage in Ubers has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether it gets banned from OU or not. It doesn't matter whether a Pokemon is used in Ubers or not; if it is judged to be too powerful for OU, it will get banished to Ubers. Even if it isn't used on even 0.01% of teams in Uber, it will still be Uber. Ubers is a ban tier, and as such, an assessment of a Pokemon's power in Ubers does not in any way affect the decision as to whether it is too good for OU.
...
 

Chou Toshio

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I'll keep this post short since I do not need a whole paragraph to emphaze my point. Almost all of you guys who post for Mence to stay OU keep on hamering on "prediction". Prediction isn't a reliable counter, but a bit of guess work. Gueassing is gambling, and this is not reliable.
No, the point is that nothing OUGHT to be reliable in pokemon, nor ought there be counters. It has been established from day 1 of Gen 4, that a lack of counters DOES NOT define Uber status, and thus simply saying "it has no counters," has little to no relevance. The game inherently requires prediction, so there is the inherent risk of getting your prediction wrong. Salamence is far from the only source of "gambling" in pokemon-- it's a game of risk assessment.
 
Key point: almost no one has the appropriate counter when it comes to Salamence. Everyone has to gamble and play around him like a threat they were unprepared for, no matter how solid their team is. Is that fair? (Honest question, not automatic no)
I'm not going to tell you whether it's fair or not since that's too subjective for me to answer, but I will tell you that Salamence is hardly unique in that regard.

Just as Salamence is guaranteed to kill/severely dent at least one pokemon, other Pokemon such as SubGar can do this as well. In fact, all SubGar has to do is scare something off and set up a Substitute. It can then toss prediction completely out of the window unlike our blue menace.

There's also better pokemon that can break down cores. For this example, I'll use a pokemon which is commonly unused, but can easily open up a NPApe sweep. It's Dugtrio. Did you know that an eathquaking adamant CB Dugtrio with max attack EVs can deal 128.6% - 151.6% damage to a calm 252 HP 120 Defense Tentacruel, or that an earthquaking Jolly LO Dugtrio with max attack EVs can deal 102.2% - 120.3% to that same Tentacruel? As you can see, this pokemon can obviously kill off a NPApe counter 100% of the time as long as it has Arena Trap and that Tentacruel isn't holding Shed Shell. Are we going to ban Dugtrio?
 
Did you know that an eathquaking adamant CB Dugtrio with max attack EVs can deal 128.6% - 151.6% damage to a calm 252 HP 120 Defense Tentacruel, or that an earthquaking Jolly LO Dugtrio with max attack EVs can deal 102.2% - 120.3% to that same Tentacruel? As you can see, this pokemon can obviously kill off a NPApe counter 100% of the time as long as it has Arena Trap and that Tentacruel isn't holding Shed Shell. Are we going to ban Dugtrio?
Maybe we SHOULD ban dugtrio!! :P
 
Dugtrio is OHKO'd by Surf, Ice Beam, or a slight breeze from Tentacruel. In order to get it in safely, it has to either spin or spike. But yes, it does remove Tentacruel, and several other pokemon as well, so that Infernape can sweep.

Is it worth a teamslot? Most people judging by the usage choose not to use Dugtrio, so I don't think it's a good choice.

One statistic I would like to see is a winning percentage statistic generated by Shoddy. Each win or loss is recorded already, so it would be easy to generate. That way, we can see if there is a direct relation to the presence of Salamence on a team and a higher win ratio. The percentage of times Salamence is on the winning team would be very easy to determine, and the same for every other pokemon. It would be helpful for a real discussion.

I doubt, however, that those statistics are made public, which is a shame.
 
@ rh2012 and Game Freak201

I stoped getting into this cause I'm on the fence about Salamence being uber but your post needs to be responded to.

Dugtrio can get those kills cause of it's ability arena trap so yea it can net in those kills when it needs to however unlike Salamence it's extremely fragile and for this same reason salamence can switch in so many more times than dugtrio. (depending of course) Also unlike Dugtrio Salamence is capable of attacking from both sides of the spectrum with it's not extremely high atk and good sp atk combined with it's high power stab Physical outrage and special draco meteor. Not to mention that it can stop it's checks with high bped fire blast and earthquake.
 

shrang

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Why are we talking about Dugtrio?? It was overwhelming voted not broken in UU. At least Tyranitar is usable, but I'm not going to continue on that line of thought (We could test it after Mence, but whatever). I do concur with people on the topic that Salamence can't control what it kills though, so that might weigh in on if he fits the Support Characteristic or not (The kill he gets could well be on some 1HP lead Azelf the opponent was saving for death fodder or something).
 
I call Salamence too strong. If it is used right. Easily killed by ice even if it tanks. Which it wont? My concern is Ttar: It kills its weakness more efficiently than Mence.

Ha. I say Tyranitar should be tried before Salamence. It's a harder threat to kill, somewhat. When my fighting guy is out, I am screwed. My Scizor doesn't outspeed it, and Infernape can get both can OHKO by it. What else poses a big threat for it? I'm not really sure. And Tyranitar used as a Lead can kill too. Well, it can outspeed azelf somehow, so that sucks. I'm talking literally. :D
 
one word people: submence.
Scizor wants to come in on outrage or draco meteor and bullet punch you? ooohhh, nice try, fire blast noob. A safe outrage from behind a sub? nope. weavile or mamo revenge? try again next time. It obviously requires spin support, but so does every mence set.
Okay, obviously, substitute isn't a common move on mence (but it should be). Howver, this shows how mence can carry many moves to screw over potential counters. And you people saying that if mence predicts wrong it dies - all it takes is 10% from life orb, while the counter takes 35%+ from a resisted attack. Then he comes back in later. And continues to spam D-Meteor until the steel is dead. Then he uses outrage. (or sub ;)
 
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