The First Smogon Council - Salamence

[Chou Toshio]

I STILL run scarftar. Kills Rotom that think they should all stay in and W-o-W, and takes out Starmie and Zapdos without a hitch. EQ checks infernape and tentacruel . . . there's lots of versatility to it!

Surprisingly good in the lead position where it can get up SR and sand with almost absolute certainty (and Crunch 2hko's aerodactyle, the only faster taunt user). Also screws over trick leads.

 

[Alex Practice]

I feel that Salamence needs to be Uber. Even with extremely defensive teams, it's extremely difficult to switch in. Blissey can survive a Draco Meteor (although it still takes an obscene amount of damage given its SpDef), but it doesn't like getting hit by Outrage or even Dragon Claw. Skarmory can handle Outrage, but since Salamence is faster and has access to Fire Blast to hit it on its weaker defensive stat, Skarmory isn't a safe switch in, either. Things like max defense Gyarados die to Draco Meteor, even if they can take physical attacks well. After a Dragon Dance, it forces a tie with Scarf Jirachi, and even if you were to win the speed tie, what happens when your opponent switches out to something that resists Ice, forces Jirachi to switch, and then your opponent sends in Mence later on something that it forces out?

Salamence is too fast, and too powerful. Its coverage is great, it has a huge
movepool and hits hard on both sides of the spectrum. It's incredibly difficult to safely switch into it, and even if your switch-in doesn't get destroyed by Mence's insane attack power, it might just Dragon Dance and sweep your team.

I honestly feel that Latias was WAY less of a threat. I've never really thought, Grrr, Latias is too powerful and frustrating. But every time I see a Salamence I'm like, goddamnit, time to cross my fingers.

 

[DeathHound96]

I've been using Salamence a lot on Wi-Fi lately, just to see if it really does "overcentralize" the metagame. (Classic MixMence, used as a lead)

When I'm using Salamence, I often find myself comparing it to Latias and Garchomp mixed, and both of which are Uber, so why not make Mence an Uber. It has the exact same base Attack as Chomp, and the exact same base Sp. A as Latias. Salamence is what came out of the fusion chamber when they were testing Chomp and Latias. But what I seriously don't get is why they made Chomp and Latias Uber, and it's already three years into Gen 4 and they're only doing something about Mence now. Seriously, Mence is the same as Chomp and Latias combined, if not better, and IMO Mence should've been banned first.

I've swept through Scizorless teams with my Mence, and done a good amount of damage to teams that do have Scizor. Nothing can switch in on Mence, as it is so versatile with the many sets it has, so people will often be at a loss of what to do next when Mence is switched in. Blissey is switched in to absorb a Draco Meteor, but plans are thwarted when Blissey is 2HKOed with Brick Break. Skarmory comes in to take the Earthquake when it gets OHKOed by Fire Blast.

Mence is Uber.

 

[Efemera]

The biggest reason Mence isn't as decidedly Uber as Garchomp and Latias is its Stealth Rock weakness and lesser bulk. Mence is quickly worn down by residual damage, whereas the other two can get many switch-ins in one match, Mence is usually limited to 2, sometimes 1 or 3. Mence is every bit as dangerous as those two, if not more, but it's much riskier to use.

The other factor is speed. 100 is a very common base speed in OU, forcing Mence to speed tie many Pokemon that Garchomp and Latias outspeed. Speed is definitely not a stat that you can underestimate (this is directed at those who think Dragonite is as deadly as Mence).

 

[purple crobatchop]

Seriously, Mence is the same as Chomp and Latias combined, if not better, and IMO Mence should've been banned first.

What the hell? Chomp is uber long ago because of SD, and Latias too bulky and powerful at the same time. I wasn't here when spectias is dominating, but I am sure she was a good special wall as well (in OU). I have no idea what was going on then though.

Mence... can't really decide can we? And the Best (leaderboard) suspect players aren't talking here. On a side note, I think this thread is actually completed.

 

[1338]

I don't really have anything new to add to this debate, but I can give my own opinion that Salamence is too overwhelming for OU.

In OU, I have been using a choice team that includes Choice Band Salamence with some success, and Salamence is easily the MVP of that team, nearly guaranteeing a kill each time it switches in safely. I also have to play the guessing game of Mixmence vs. DDmence, which is certainly not amusing when I guess wrong.

In Suspect, I have been using a heavy offense team taking advantage of the lack of steels. Instead, I can target fire/water/grass cores and beat down stall that way. Without Salamence, the metagame might not be as exciting in my opinion, (the guessing games can be entertaining at times, I guess) but Salamence's ban would be for the best.

I've gotten up to 6th in OU with my Choice Band Salamence team (1624 CRE) and 1st in Suspect with heavy offense (1648 CRE, although I was only 2nd when I got this high), so I guess you could say I'm pretty successful.

 

[shrang]

Before some idiot comes in and mentions Cresselia, let me address this: almost every Uber has one or two reasonable counters. Deoxys-A simply cannot beat Scizor without massive prediction (which it cannot afford if it's up against anything remotely bulky to begin with), and Heatproof Brozong counters it consummately; however, the centralization caused by its very existence would be massive, and quite Latias like. Deoxys-A is quite capable of being checked by the likes of incredibly bulky Steel types, but every single one of them would be complete Magnezone fodder and your five remaining Pokemon have no means of stopping it.

I don't want to be harsh, but this is absolutely bullshit. You mention how Cresselia is a crap counter to Salamence and then you come up with something like that?? Heatproof Bronzong to counter Deoxys-A?? Seriously?? For your information, Bronzong is 2HKO'd by LO Thunder + Superpower most of the time. Let's just look at all the Ubers for counters:

Arceus: lol (He doesn't count at the moment anyway)
Darkrai: No counters, Ho-oh being the closest thing, but SR rapes it and not to mention Darkrai can just put her to sleep.
Deoxys/Deoxys-A: Not happening
Deoxys-D: Steels, but 1) No-one uses Deoxys-D and 2) Steels aren't going to stop it doing what it does (Entry hazards, Knock Off, etc).
Deoxys-S: Steels again, but nothing is stopping it get in at least 1 layer of hazards unless your name is Shaymin-S, Darkrai or Mewtwo wearing a Scarf. If you though Froslass was bad in UU, try Deoxys-S on for size.
Dialga: lol
Garchomp: Hard to counter, Timid Lugia and Cresselia probably being the closest thing to a counter.
Giratina: Defensive Pokemon, therefore it doesn't really need to be countered, although nothing is going to be killing it quickly either without boosts. CM Giratina is also a bitch.
Giratina-O: lol
Groudon: Fine. Lugia, Cresselia, Giratina are all reasonable counters
Ho-oh: Everything risks getting OHKO'd or 2HKO'd by this thing, anything that could beat it (Garchomp, Tyranitar) risks getting burned.
Kyogre: lol Quagsire, Ludicolo, Shedinja. Latias and Palkia can counter most sets, but isn't going going to be switching in more than once (A bit like Registeel is to Raikou)
Lati@s: Blissey, although if the Lati@s user decides to be funny and runs Refresh, Blissey loses too.
Lugia: See Giratina
Manaphy: Lati@s
Mew: Good luck.
Mewtwo: See Mew
Palkia: lol
Rayquaza: lol
Shaymin-S: SkarmBliss, albeit unreliable
Wobbuffet/Wynaut: lol

So 9 out of 24 Ubers have feasible, albeit unreliable counters, while the rest are flat-out uncounterable.

Back to the topic at hand, Cresselia is not a horrible check to Salamence either. RestTalk+CM Cresselia with Ice Beam is a real bitch. If Mence absolutely requires Scizor and Tyranitar to remove Cress, then you would question if his sweeping/supporting abilities actually need more support than an Uber does.

 

[Royal Flush]

The other factor is speed. 100 is a very common base speed in OU, forcing Mence to speed tie many Pokemon that Garchomp and Latias outspeed. Speed is definitely not a stat that you can underestimate (this is directed at those who think Dragonite is as deadly as Mence).

Not really: considering the Top 30 OU @ May, we can see that only Gengar, Infernape, Starmie, Azelf, Jolteon and Aerodactyl are actually faster, and Jirachi, Flygon and Celebi with the tie spd.
Excluding Aero and Azelf because they're suicide leads and shit like Weavile or Ninjask, we have just 4 pokemon faster than Mence and 3 tiering. Plus, Celebi ties but unno, it can't do nothing against; only Jirachi can take a dragon move; using Scarf on Gengar, Starmie, Nape or Jolteon is very lame and not worthy.

 

[acinod]

using Scarf on Gengar, Starmie, Nape or Jolteon is very lame and not worthy.

I disagree on Scarf Gengar and Scarf Starmie being unviable sets. Scarf Gengar is very fast, quite powerful and slightly unusual revenge killer that keeps almost every set-up pokemon in the game in check. Scarf Starmie is also very effective, able to surprise Salamence and Gyarados who believe they can kill you after a Dragon Dance.

But more on topic, Salamence's speed after a Dragon Dance is truely fearsome as it can defeat many unprepared teams. Stealth Rock is not a big concern if Salamence is able to sweep the entire team after 1 Dragon Dance.

 

[Shizzle]

@acinod, we are not discussing these pokemon as bad, but rather not really a good check, seeing as choice item users, support heavily under the 'support' characteristic for banning, so arguing that they are good at checking Salamence is a two sided sword. Your scarfer Ice Beams/Punches Salamence, they bring in Agiligross or something, which is making it easier for something to sweep.

 

[SJCrew]

Arceus: lol (He doesn't count at the moment anyway)
Darkrai: No counters, Ho-oh being the closest thing, but SR rapes it and not to mention Darkrai can just put her to sleep.
Deoxys/Deoxys-A: Not happening
Deoxys-D: Steels, but 1) No-one uses Deoxys-D and 2) Steels aren't going to stop it doing what it does (Entry hazards, Knock Off, etc).
Deoxys-S: Steels again, but nothing is stopping it get in at least 1 layer of hazards unless your name is Shaymin-S, Darkrai or Mewtwo wearing a Scarf. If you though Froslass was bad in UU, try Deoxys-S on for size.
Dialga: lol
Garchomp: Hard to counter, Timid Lugia and Cresselia probably being the closest thing to a counter.
Giratina: Defensive Pokemon, therefore it doesn't really need to be countered, although nothing is going to be killing it quickly either without boosts. CM Giratina is also a bitch.
Giratina-O: lol
Groudon: Fine. Lugia, Cresselia, Giratina are all reasonable counters
Ho-oh: Everything risks getting OHKO'd or 2HKO'd by this thing, anything that could beat it (Garchomp, Tyranitar) risks getting burned.
Kyogre: lol Quagsire, Ludicolo, Shedinja. Latias and Palkia can counter most sets, but isn't going going to be switching in more than once (A bit like Registeel is to Raikou)
Lati@s: Blissey, although if the Lati@s user decides to be funny and runs Refresh, Blissey loses too.
Lugia: See Giratina
Manaphy: Lati@s
Mew: Good luck.
Mewtwo: See Mew
Palkia: lol
Rayquaza: lol
Shaymin-S: SkarmBliss, albeit unreliable
Wobbuffet/Wynaut: lol

ok, thanks for typing that list and saving me the trouble, as it ties directly to the point I was making to begin with: Ubers generally have "counters", but almost none of them are practical, and the amount of damage they do to the standard metagame otherwise is ridiculous. That is why I typed up the next part of my post, which you really should have read before going on a completely irrelevant tangent. In case you forgot, here it is:

Even if I were to suggest a counter to both DD and MixMence, let's suppose it's simply not practical by any other means. Would you still support Salamence in OU? Or perhaps we could say Salamence has one viable OU counter and nothing else. Would you suggest we have it on every single one of our teams at all times to ensure we stop it?

If you were to answer 'no' to either of those, then I think you have a pretty good idea of what we're dealing with. We had Uber-lites (aka Pokemon without obviously broken stats, but are still capable of destroying the OU metagame) such as Latias and Manaphy voted Uber under similar conditions, and I would go so far as to say Latias was a hair easier to deal with than Salamence. But their checks were limited, the centralization was bad for the metagame, and most players realized that when they voted them out.

 

[shrang]

Ubers generally have "counters", but almost none of them are practical, and the amount of damage they do to the standard metagame otherwise is ridiculous.

No, Ubers generally don't have counters, at that's the end of the story. Also, Cresselia isn't THAT unviable. Yes, Tyranitar and Scizor give it troubles, but it's not horrible, certainly not in the vein of "Quagsire counters Kyogre" horrible.

 

[SniperNightOwl]

I think this is my first post, I had this account for God knows how long and it has dust all over it. Just didn't want anyone to take my username like they did on SWF. =/

Nice to meet you Smogoners!

There are reasonable arguments for Salamence being banned in Smogon's meta game.

Notice I said, "Smogon's" meta game.

In Nintendo, Japanese, or any meta game other than Smogon.... Garchomp, Latias, even Latios are not considered uber. Imo, when all dragons are legal, none are uber as they check each other.

However with Garchomp and Latias removed in Smogon's tier list, I'm going to lean more on the side that Salamence is uber.

Although it has a nasty x4 weakness to ice, and stealth rock strips a good portion of it's health, it has two advantages:

1. No safe switch ins*

*I would say the safest switch in to Salamence would be a Cresselia with ice beam. However the problem with this is Cresselia imo honestly isn't viable anymore in today's OU enviroment. Her lack of reliable recovery, abundance of Tyranitar, Scizor ect really wouldn't make it worth having her on a team just to stop Mence.

2. Extreme Diversity- There are many viable sets- dragon dance, special, physical, mixed, if the trainer mispredicts which one it is, it could very well cost them at least a Pokemon in the process, or even the game.

That's my 10 cents. Good luck figuring this all out! :)

 

[TheValkyries]

No, Ubers generally don't have counters, at that's the end of the story. Also, Cresselia isn't THAT unviable. Yes, Tyranitar and Scizor give it troubles, but it's not horrible, certainly not in the vein of "Quagsire counters Kyogre" horrible.

I need to ask you... are you taking any hallucinogenic drugs? Let's take a look at what you said was a good set for Cresselia.

RestTalk+CM Cresselia with Ice Beam

So, what can this set do, other than threaten Mence? Slowly bleed on me and die?

I mean, think about it. A +6 Ice Beam BARELY gets an OHKO off on a 4HP ALAKAZAM. For godsakes, a small rock can crumple an Alakazam. Cresselia is struggling to 2-3HKO the metagame... AT +6. At +1 he's hitting about as hard as a soothing breeze.

All in all, Cresselia sucks. Stop trying to make it relevant.

 

[Game Freak201]

I need to ask you... are you taking any hallucinogenic drugs? Let's take a look at what you said was a good set for Cresselia.

So, what can this set do, other than threaten Mence? Slowly bleed on me and die?

I mean, think about it. A +6 Ice Beam BARELY gets an OHKO off on a 4HP ALAKAZAM. For godsakes, a small rock can crumple an Alakazam. Cresselia is struggling to 2-3HKO the metagame... AT +6. At +1 he's hitting about as hard as a soothing breeze.

All in all, Cresselia sucks. Stop trying to make it relevant.

Were you playing back in the DP era when Garchomp was all the rage. People actually used ScarfCress since Garchomp really was all that threatening at the time, even when many people were pairing Tyranitar with the land shark. If a pokemon like Salamence is overcentralizing, wouldn't we be seeing more pokemon like ScarfCress being commonly used primarily to just defeat him?

When we look at the current Salamence checks, they cover more than just Salamence and are more versatile. For example, Scizor gets that nice Steel typing as along with STABed Bullet Punches and U-Turn abusing. Vaporeon checks or walls general threats, and Suicune does the same thing or sweeps through teams. The commonly seen Scarfers like Jirachi also revenge kill more than just Mence.

 

[Alan]

Were you playing back in the DP era when Garchomp was all the rage. People actually used ScarfCress since Garchomp really was all that threatening at the time, even when many people were pairing Tyranitar with the land shark. If a pokemon like Salamence is overcentralizing, wouldn't we be seeing more pokemon like ScarfCress being commonly used primarily to just defeat him?

No, because back in the Garchomp era people also used shit like ScarfGar and other bad sets. Now people realize that being Pursuit bait just for the sake of countering one pokemon is a horrible idea.

 

[Game Freak201]

No, because back in the Garchomp era people also used shit like ScarfGar and other bad sets. Now people realize that being Pursuit bait just for the sake of countering one pokemon is a horrible idea.

I'll let the bolded part speak for itself.

 

[SniperNightOwl]

Now people realize that being Pursuit bait just for the sake of countering one pokemon is a horrible idea.

This right here.

 

[PallyHeroRush52]

Throw a Lucario on your team then, he loves his enemies getting locked into Pursuit.

 

[shrang]

I need to ask you... are you taking any hallucinogenic drugs? Let's take a look at what you said was a good set for Cresselia.

So, what can this set do, other than threaten Mence? Slowly bleed on me and die?

I mean, think about it. A +6 Ice Beam BARELY gets an OHKO off on a 4HP ALAKAZAM. For godsakes, a small rock can crumple an Alakazam. Cresselia is struggling to 2-3HKO the metagame... AT +6. At +1 he's hitting about as hard as a soothing breeze.

All in all, Cresselia sucks. Stop trying to make it relevant.

Let me ask you, have you played against that thing?? It is actually quite a nuisance. Stop theorymoning on why Cresselia sucks and actually prove it by playtesting. She was overwhelming voted BL, for God sakes, so she's not actually bad.

 

[Alan]

I'll let the bolded part speak for itself.

Are you saying ScarfGar is good?

 

[Game Freak201]

Are you saying ScarfGar is good?

Why of course. He is really good, especially back in the DP glory days. Being able to revenge kill Deoxys-E was the primary reason why he was on my old team as well as not being Pursuit bait for Tyranitar since he's scared switching into both Hypnosis and Focus Blast. In fact, he still makes for a good revenge killer now due to his typing allowing him to switch into things easily; though, Hypnosis did get a nerf. Oh yeah, follow PallyHeroRush52's advice when running Pursuit baits in your team. I found the strategy really effective. This should be true even more since Tyranitars are weaker than they used to be with the popularity of Choice Scarf.

 

[SJCrew]

No, Ubers generally don't have counters, at that's the end of the story.

K, you're still missing the point, so let's go over this again

Arceus: lol (He doesn't count at the moment anyway)
Darkrai: Scarf Primeape, which is not viable in OU, or anywhere really.
Deoxys/Deoxys-A: Heatproof Brozong.
Deoxys-D: Steels, possibly CBtar and SD Scizor which doesn't stop it from setting up Spikes.
Deoxys-S: Steels, which doesn't stop it from setting up Spikes
Dialga: lol
Garchomp: Cresselia
Giratina: Defensive Pokemon, therefore it doesn't really need to be countered, although nothing is going to be killing it quickly either without boosts. CM Giratina is also a bitch.
Giratina-O: lol
Groudon: Cresselia
Kyogre: lol Quagsire, Ludicolo, Shedinja. Latias and Palkia can counter most sets, but isn't going going to be switching in more than once (A bit like Registeel is to Raikou)
Lati@s: Blissey, as well as Scarftar and Scizor to some degree
Lugia: See Giratina
Manaphy: Specs Roserade, Specs Zapdos, Specs Raikou. None of those are viable in OU.
Mew: Good luck.
Mewtwo: See Mew
Palkia: lol
Rayquaza: lol
Shaymin-S: SkarmBliss, albeit unreliable
Wobbuffet/Wynaut:lol

The changes in bold illustrate my point better. Now, I don't necessarily mean "all Ubers have counters", I probably phrased that wrong, since I know for a fact that absolutely NOTHING in OU can handle ridiculous shit like Kyogre or Mewtwo, I'm just saying that there are a good number of Ubers with Pokemon that can be considered counters from a technical standpoint, not a pragmatic one. Same thing with Salamence. Even if it doesn't have 150 Att/Sp. Att, it still overpowers OU.

 

[RAM]

Uber Uber Uber

Salamance is uber period.
He is one of the most OU poke ever and he is cheap.
My thinking is if garchomp is uber y not slamence he is even more powerful and has even some of the same moves. If u make him uber it will stop thousands of poeple depending on this cheap poke.
May the force be with u all

 

[shrang]

K, you're still missing the point, so let's go over this again



The changes in bold illustrate my point better. Now, I don't necessarily mean "all Ubers have counters", I probably phrased that wrong, since I know for a fact that absolutely NOTHING in OU can handle ridiculous shit like Kyogre or Mewtwo, I'm just saying that there are a good number of Ubers with Pokemon that can be considered counters from a technical standpoint, not a pragmatic one. Same thing with Salamence. Even if it doesn't have 150 Att/Sp. Att, it still overpowers OU.

The Salamence "counters" named (Cresselia and Sandstorm Regirock) are no where near impractical. I don't know why so many people say Cresselia is shit. Sure, Tyranitar and Scizor gives it a lot of trouble, but the fact that Mence absolutely requires TTar or Scizor to remove Cresselia already indicates that it needs more than "no support" already, and this is not to mention they can't guarantee Cresselia's demise either. So, we have one counter already, which none of the Ubers that you mentioned (Apart from the defensive ones) have (Again, Heatproof Bronzong doesn't counter Deoxys-A in the slightest, nor does ScarfApe against Darkrai or any of the other ones you mentioned). The ones you bolded (Like Manaphy and Specs Raikou), are merely checks at best. Now, if we actually compare apples to apples, we know that Mence also has a large number of feasible checks. Jirachi, Metagross, bulky Waters, Bronzong, Scizor, faster revenge killers are all considered checks to Mence. Sure, they all risk getting killed by one of Mence's attacks, you could see that the list of checks that Mence has is a considerable amount bigger than the Ubers that you tried to point out.