The First Smogon Council - Salamence

[Chou Toshio]

^Whenever a Salamence appears in battle, it is carrying LO, leftovers, has SR spinned, there is sand hitting the opponent, but not you, and Salamence is carrying Draco Meteor, Outrage, Fire Blast, Earthquake, Dragon Dance, Substitute, Roost, Toxic and Wish-- and it will always predict correctly.

If you didn't figure it out, the reason why Sub (and Roost for that matter) doesn't feature much on mence is because the thing has little life to spare and has move syndrom. It needs a minimum of 3 slots for coverage, and then if you want Outrage + Meteor or you want to carry DD, your slots are already gone.

 

[KurashiDragon]

Actually that's not a good set. The anti ubers can have a field day with this one but I'm gonna be the first to get to it as one who's on the fence.

Sub would take away 25% of your hp which when combined with the 25% from stealth rock +10% from life orb + the possible sandstorm + the damage you could've already taken if you had switched in on something. You'd need roost on this set which when combined with substitute could actually hinder your ability to sweep cause it only leaves two actual attacking moves. Mixmence is being tested because of it's powerful diversity in it's moveset and the lack of hard counters along with actually being able to kill off its own checks.

Do I sound expirienced? lol.

Edit: Mabye it could work but you'd need some serious team support and for only one pokes, even if it is mence, I don't think it's worth it.

 

[ginganinja]

is sub mence really viable?
You lose 50% after Sub + SR and stand to lose more is SS is up. It seems that you would lose out on certain coverage running Substitute but I have never tried it so I guess I don't know.

In regards to the queston is salamence uber?
I guess I am undecided. Its a strong threat to be sure and I always need to keep him in mind when building a team but personally I can usually deal with him fine. Granted since latias was voted Uber I have not had time to go on shoddy much (Exams) but it still seems slightly mamagable to me although it often requires prediction from me to beat it.

Have a Nice Day!

EDIT: nvm got ninja'ed

 

[MegaKick]

it is redicously easy to remove rocks in OU. aero, life orb starmie, the fact that only about 25% of teams have a ghost, only 25% of teams have t-tar or hippo so sand probably won't be up.
I will admit, these are speciellized conditions. Howver, they are not highly speciellized. and if a player is able to fulfill these conditions, without an excessive or absurd amount of support (life orb starmie is an amazing poke that should be on every team anyway) shouldn't we take it into consideration?

 

[Chou Toshio]

Uberiffic, do you understanding that Rapid Spin v. SR is a losing battle?

That while they both take 1 turn to set up, one side will be taking on SR damage until they manage to spin?

The trade off is as follows:

1 Turn + Damage from SR v. 1 Turn, maybe more if you run into a ghost

Essentially, in the war of finding and using turns to Rapid Spin/SR, SR is always better-- in terms of economic cost (decisions in the face of limited resources, that being turns and health), rapid spinning just to get rid of SR is essentially the same as Roosting in the face of 60%+ damage hits.

While you both take 1 turn to do it, one side is dishing out extra damage for it, and maybe screwing you more if they carry a ghost and predict well. While it isn't happening immediately (so it's less obvious), using spin just to get rid of rocks is essentially the same as roosting while the opponent smacks you for 60% each turn.

Now, bring spikes into the picture and you've got a whole new equation, but spikes are relatively rare, making spinning a strategy with very limited value. And that's before you get to spinning's other problems-- like lack of users.

 

[MegaKick]

except every team is using suicide stealth rock leads so once they die you can spin and they lose hazards forever. although i guess that at this point it's relieing on the opponet not having a ghost, having a suicide lead, not having t-tar (hippo doesn't matter since mence wrecks stall either way) so mayby it is a little out of hand. And the Uber characteristic says "common battle conditions" which, even though I think it should be changed to something along the lines of minimal support, those are the rules, so I withdraw my argument of submence, and excessive switching. I still think mence is uber though. mence > garchomp anyday

 

[shrang]

one word people: submence.
Scizor wants to come in on outrage or draco meteor and bullet punch you? ooohhh, nice try, fire blast noob. A safe outrage from behind a sub? nope. weavile or mamo revenge? try again next time. It obviously requires spin support, but so does every mence set.
Okay, obviously, substitute isn't a common move on mence (but it should be). Howver, this shows how mence can carry many moves to screw over potential counters. And you people saying that if mence predicts wrong it dies - all it takes is 10% from life orb, while the counter takes 35%+ from a resisted attack. Then he comes back in later. And continues to spam D-Meteor until the steel is dead. Then he uses outrage. (or sub ;)

It loses 10% from LO, 25% from SR, 6% from the ever common Sandstorm. If he switches out, he'll be eating another 25-31% next turn. Spin support is just one more bit of support Mence needs to function properly. SubMence in common conditions is pretty much a one-shot wonder.

 

[SJCrew]

I've tried Sub Mence and while it was awesome for a time, it really doesn't do anything for you lategame where DD would be so much more valuable. Sub Mence might get those KOs easier, but make it a point to support him another premier sweeper so that you'll actually be able to take advantage of those free kills.

Residual damage is only guaranteed from a theoretical standpoint, so saying "it takes a million damage from sr lo ss then gets forced out by xyz" is pretty much saying "I have neither used this set nor Salamence before, but he's still OU!!!"

 

[Chou Toshio]

except every team is using suicide stealth rock leads so once they die you can spin and they lose hazards forever. although i guess that at this point it's relieing on the opponet not having a ghost, having a suicide lead, not having t-tar (hippo doesn't matter since mence wrecks stall either way) so mayby it is a little out of hand. And the Uber characteristic says "common battle conditions" which, even though I think it should be changed to something along the lines of minimal support, those are the rules, so I withdraw my argument of submence, and excessive switching. I still think mence is uber though. mence > garchomp anyday

It's good that you decide to roost in the face of a 60% attack once, as opposed to bashing your head against it multiple times. Still doesn't make it a good move.

 

[verycoolguy]

Why is it assumed that Salamence has Life Orb when it uses Substitute? Leftovers is the better option.

^Whenever a Salamence appears in battle, it is carrying LO, leftovers, has SR spinned, there is sand hitting the opponent, but not you, and Salamence is carrying Draco Meteor, Outrage, Fire Blast, Earthquake, Dragon Dance, Substitute, Roost, Toxic and Wish-- and it will always predict correctly.

If you didn't figure it out, the reason why Sub (and Roost for that matter) doesn't feature much on mence is because the thing has little life to spare and has move syndrom. It needs a minimum of 3 slots for coverage, and then if you want Outrage + Meteor or you want to carry DD, your slots are already gone.

Eh, most pro-Uber supporters don't really argue like that. They would only say that Salamence has a moveset of Dragon Dance/Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Earthquake, and Outrage. Only from those five, it would wreck the whole metagame. Moves like Roost are just other options that make Salamence perform differently against certain checks. What I'm saying is that Salamence has the opposite of horrible moveslot syndrome, since it can dent severely dent everything with one moveset.

 

[shrang]

Why is it assumed that Salamence has Life Orb when it uses Substitute? Leftovers is the better option.

Because Uberific specifically mentioned it:

Okay, obviously, substitute isn't a common move on mence (but it should be). Howver, this shows how mence can carry many moves to screw over potential counters. And you people saying that if mence predicts wrong it dies - all it takes is 10% from life orb, while the counter takes 35%+ from a resisted attack. Then he comes back in later. And continues to spam D-Meteor until the steel is dead. Then he uses outrage. (or sub ;)

Oh, and:

Eh, most pro-Uber supporters don't really argue like that. They would only say that Salamence has a moveset of Dragon Dance/Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Earthquake, and Outrage. Only from those five, it would wreck the whole metagame. Moves like Roost are just other options that make Salamence perform differently against certain checks. What I'm saying is that Salamence has the opposite of horrible moveslot syndrome, since it can dent severely dent everything with one moveset.

However, Mence can only run 4 moves, not five. He can't run DD/Roost/DM/Outrage/Fire Blast/EQ/Flamethrower/Sub/Dragon Claw @ Life Orb/Leftovers/Draco Plate all in one set.

 

[SJCrew]

Why is it assumed that Salamence has Life Orb when it uses Substitute? Leftovers is the better option.

Nah, you want Life Orb. Salamence can't afford to miss out on those extra KOs on walls and things like Shuca Berry Heatran.

@ Shrang: Salamence's overall capabilities should always be taken into account when arguing its tier status. Determining the difference between MixMence and DD Mence essentially hinges on the use of all but one move.

Dragon Dance and MixMence are both equally viable sets that see almost the same amount of usage universally. You could argue four-moveslot syndrome were it not for the fact that he's using the same moves almost all the time to beat the same Pokemon, as opposed to something like Infernape, who needs to run a completely different set for each of its counters.

 

[Chou Toshio]

But, because they are similar enough, it can be argued the other way-- that whichever mence it is, your best switchin probably doesn't change much.

The thing to me though, is that while they do play differently (in the hands of skilled players), they are similar enough that they don't really call for different checks. I mean, to be perfectly honest, half the time the best switch in (in a given situation) for mixmence or dd mence, often ends up being the same thing! Either way, it's the same body (ko'd/crippled by the same moves), the same item, and the same (super strong dragon) + Non-stab ground+fire coverage coming my way.

When I fight a mence, I feel I almost always am throwing out the same pokemon to face either one-- because I've never relied on countering mence, especially with something stupidly situational like Porygon-2.

Yes, I am always making that switch in aware of a significant risk of losing said poke-- but then that poke is always halfway fodder, and a risk of mis-predicting honestly doesn't bother me in mence's case.

 

[Royal Flush]

Oh, please, any pokemon can have a set with substitute to ease prediction, but Mence doesn't have room for it. In the other hand, guys like Gengar or Heatran are prime sub users as they can hit pretty much everything with 2/3 moves.
Nevertheless, Mence CAN wreak havoc with 4 slots. I mean, his checks are just too risky - sending ScarfFlygon expecting a DD and being OHKOed by the Mixed one, for example - or too bad for OU - you send your almighty Weavile to check Mence, but he fails to do any other thing and plus give free turns to the rest of the game, so what? Salamence doesn't raise the usage of these poor guys just because they're poor. It'd be just like always use Quagsire to counter Kyogre, lol.

An interesting point is that we are still seeing quite a lot of offensive teams @ Suspect ladder, showing that a Menceless metagame isn't 100% stall. However, being an optimistic for banning Mence, I think the metagame would be so much better without him but with Latias.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Why do people keep mentioning Scarf Flygon as a check to Salamence? Scarf Flygon is a terrible check for so many reasons. You got issues if you are depending on flygon (who achieves so many other much more useful objectives on any team) to check mence! The only time Flygon should be outraging into a mence is late game when you're cleaning house and your opponent's whole remaining team is pretty much raped by flygon.

If you are outraging into mence (or even stupider, switching in to try to outrage into mence) any other time, your team has some serious reworking to do.

From early/mid transitioning with speedy U-Turns and immunity to TrickScarf/T-Wave and Rock/Ground resistance to being an absolute MONSTER in late game, Scarf Flygon's not only one of the best pokemon in the game, but has got lots to accomplish outside of throwing its life away to try to check Salamence . . .

edit: Oh wait, sorry I forgot Flygon can run Stone Edge in the fourth slot, so it can take out Zapdos/Gyarados/Salamence without locking itself into Outrage. Sorry, I'm an adamant Fire Blast user with Flygon so I forgot . . . I feel like I can never have enough checks for Skarmory.

Stone Edge Flygon is a fairly poor answer to bulky Gyarados and Zapdos, and Salamence will die eventually-- but if at least 4/6 of my pokes don't have a way to kill skarmory, it just doesn't feel good. Keeping that in perspective, I still stand by my opinion that it's best not to rely on flygon to take out mence. Jolly Flygon's un-STAB stone edge (heck, even it's STAB outrage) are so pathetically weak, that it's hardly reliable for much (though you could say the same about its fire blast . . .).

 

[Game Freak201]

For the Dugtrio comment I made, I thought it would be understood that I was being sarcastic since that thing doesn't even break UU. Why else would I post damage calcs when it should be known that a 1.5 times or 1.3 times STABed Earthquake can easily OHKO a Tentacruel? I was merely using him as an example that just because a thing is guaranteed a kill doesn't make it Uber.

Frankly, I don't look at stats or which side a pokemon is sweeping when seeing if an offensive pokemon is Uber. I check its impact on the metagame instead. So, to see if Salamence is Uber, it would make sense to compare it to other pokemon that breaks down cores since that's what Salamence usually does.

I'm not blindly pro-OU, I just need a logical, sound reason that can convince me that Salamence is much better than everyone else when it comes to breaking down cores to the point that it should be banned.

 

[dbcb]

I am really confused about the "guessing" with Mence. I mean, maybe I haven't played people who are excellent users of Mence, but if the thing comes out really early game... it isn't likely to be the DD set.

And after one move you can easily tell what set it is due the difference in damage from a EQ from mix compared to DD or a fire blast between mix and DD.

Is "unpredictability" really a criteria for banning something (even when its not that unpredictable)?

 

[Kurai]

I am probably repeating some points that have been said, but I can't sift through 58 pages and expect not to copy a pre-existing point.

I used to have a Shoddy account, and I did play some Suspect Battles without 'Mence. First thing I noticed was, as many have said, an increase in stallish teams. But this isn't the same "pure stall" we've seen before. I haven't seen many Hippowdon leads, nor have I seen a team consisting solely of walls. Sure, there have been an increase in a bunch of different Pokemon (ones I can name are Celebi, Shaymin-G, and some Heatran), but I feel it is a better metagame altogether. Dragonite doesn't even make close to a viable mixed attacker, nor does it function as well as a DDancer because of a lower Base Speed. As such, you are not required to carry around some revenge killer (either Weavile or a Scarf Base 100 or more) as you had to in OU 'Mence days. You have that freedom of not opting to run an Ice Shard user. You aren't in fear of being swept mid- to late-game if the Salamence gets one Dragon Dance. You aren't worried about switching in a counter when it could be DDance, or MixMence, or hell, even BulkyMence. Dragonite can't run all those sets, and can only run the defensive sets better (although it lacks Wish).

On the other side, is Salamence really Uber? If you compare it to things like Mewtwo, or Darkrai, or Deoxys-A, does it really constitute as being an Uber? I remember there being a thread where it listed three possible ways of listing something as an Uber; it defeats a large portion of a metagame, it walls a large portion of a metagame, or it allows a lot of other Pokemon to set-up in the metagame.

Salamence neither falls under the Defensive nor Support characteristic, obviously. Even with Intimidate, it doesn't take hits all that well, and only sports 95/80/80 defenses, which would get decimated in Ubers, and even gets very weakened in OU. However, can Salamence really defeat a large portion of the OU metagame? I agree that you need a revenge killer to kill it, but that may not always be the case. I agree that residual damage completely cripples it, but that is not always the case. It may not be carrying Life Orb; Sandstorm may not have been setup; your lead may not have set Stealth Rock up yet. If you want to kill Salamence that way, you need to carry Tyranitar or Hippowdon, have some sort of suicide lead or another Pokemon to setup SR, and you need to assume the opponent has an LO 'Mence. And again, this will not always be the case.

I am still undecided on this issue, because I really like the metagame without Salamence, but I don't necessarily feel it should be Uber. If someone can show me a universal counter to the DDance and MixMence sets, I will say OU all the way. But there is not a Pokemon that can take both a +1 Outrage or Earthquake AND a Draco Meteor. Unless you have a revenge killer, 'Mence is really hard to take down by force. It hits like a speeding truck, and you need to run a revenge killer or fast Scarfer to take it down.

 

[Chou Toshio]

For all posters, it would be wise to be very careful about how you utilize your experiences on suspect ladder to back your arguments.

Any pattern that you independently, as only 1 single player, have seen over the course of a few games may or may not hold true (or be statistically significant) in the larger suspect metagame. Furthermore, the current suspect ladder is not necessarily representational of the metagame that results from removing salamence.

Ie. you have to be VERY careful about claiming direct causation, ie. that Salamence is directly causing strategy A to succeed/fail. A number of other explanatory variables are also involved including:

-aftermath effects from latias' ban
-bias caused by a higher concentration of skilled players
-bias caused by fewer players (and thus direct anti-metagaming against a small pool of teams)
-bias caused simply because people are focused on mence, so they may over compensate to try to take advantage of its absence (over-estimate the value of walls he supposedly hampered and wall-breakers who supposedly will have to step up to take his place). Just because mence is gone doesn't mean it's the best strategy for Skarmory and Infernape to be everywhere.

Just to name a few.

People also have to keep in mind that correlation does not equal causation. Even if the meta trends in a direction with/without mence, that's not proof of mence being directly causational of said changes.

This doesn't mean you can't use your experiences to support your arguments, but you do have to be careful how you word your claims and just how you use those experiences to support your arguments.

. . . unless you don't want people to take you seriously, then by all means spout off whatever you want.

 

[Game Freak201]

@Kurai
If you've been reading the last 57 pages, you would realize that Mence stands no chance in being Uber by the offensive characteristic. People are claiming it to be Uber by the support characteristic since it breaks down cores.

In addition, don't say anything about Ubers when talking about Mence. Only OU performance counts. Have you been reading all those sigs?

 

[SJCrew]

If someone can show me a universal counter to the DDance and MixMence sets, I will say OU all the way.

Before some idiot comes in and mentions Cresselia, let me address this: a almost every Uber has one or two reasonable counters. Deoxys-A simply cannot beat Scizor without massive prediction (which it cannot afford if it's up against anything remotely bulky to begin with), and Heatproof Brozong counters it consummately; however, the centralization caused by its very existence would be massive, and quite Latias like. Deoxys-A is quite capable of being checked by the likes of incredibly bulky Steel types, but every single one of them would be complete Magnezone fodder and your five remaining Pokemon have no means of stopping it.

Even if I were to suggest a counter to both DD and MixMence, let's suppose it's simply not practical by any other means. Would you still support Salamence in OU? Or perhaps we could say Salamence has one viable OU counter and nothing else. Would you suggest we have it on every single one of our teams at all times to ensure we stop it?

If you were to answer 'no' to either of those, then I think you have a pretty good idea of what we're dealing with. We had Uber-lites (aka Pokemon without obviously broken stats, but are still capable of destroying the OU metagame) such as Latias and Manaphy voted Uber under similar conditions, and I would go so far as to say Latias was a hair easier to deal with than Salamence. But their checks were limited, the centralization was bad for the metagame, and most players realized that when they voted them out.

With Salamence, you either come overly prepared to beat it, (a scarfed Steel/Ice Shard user, Scizor, and Swampert) or plan to lose at least one or two Pokemon to it every single game. Just one isn't going to cut it because Salamence can beat every single check he has. And if you're attempting to use a Steel type, watch out for that Magnezone.

 

[TheValkyries]

@Kurai
If you've been reading the last 57 pages, you would realize that Mence stands no chance in being Uber by the offensive characteristic. People are claiming it to be Uber by the support characteristic since it breaks down cores.

That's actually not true. I've argued before that he's broken under the Offensive Characteristic, but he fails to fulfill said characteristic as clearly as we would like because of the massive Dragon type centralization that was brought about as a response to the rise of Garchomp, Latias and now Mence. And even despite this centralization, Mence is still considered the largest offensive threat in the game, which should speak volumes to anyone about his true power.

 

[Kurai]

If you've been reading the last 57 pages, you would realize that Mence stands no chance in being Uber by the offensive characteristic. People are claiming it to be Uber by the support characteristic since it breaks down cores.

In addition, don't say anything about Ubers when talking about Mence. Only OU performance counts. Have you been reading all those sigs?

I thought the Support characteristic for Uber meant that it allowed other Pokemon to consistently set-up, but it seems to me that Salamence is moreso a stall-breaker and a hard-hitter in general. More often do I see it set-up in standard play than I see it help other Pokemon set-up. And I do believe that whenever I mentioned Ubers in my most, I also made it a point to talk about the standard metagame. One notable sentence is when I said Salamence's defenses would get decimated in Ubers. This is obviously true, but I followed up by saying it would also be severely weakened in OU. While OU doesn't have the super-hard hitters that Ubers has, it still has enough power to take down a Salamence, especially factoring in the residual damage that is usually on the field in standard.

Even if I were to suggest a counter to both DD and MixMence, let's suppose it's simply not practical by any other means. Would you still support Salamence in OU? Or perhaps we could say Salamence has one viable OU counter and nothing else. Would you suggest we have it on every single one of our teams at all times to ensure we stop it?

Well, you mentioned Cresselia. I don't care how good of a 'Mence counter Cresselia is, but moreso is it viable in the standard metagame? When you have Scizor and Tyranitar running rampant, two extremely common OU Pokemon, would Cresselia function as a good 'Mence counter? If it was a one-on-one battle, sure. Cresselia could pack some HP and DEF and SpD EVs, not be killed by 'Mence, and 2HKO with Ice Beam. But Pokemon isn't a one-on-one game. If your 'Mence counter is dominated by the rest of the metagame, that doesn't bode well. I apologize for not posting this, but I would like to know a 'Mence counter that is remotely viable in the standard metagame. That way, you aren't forced to use some crappy Pokemon, but you want to. Porygon2 comes to mind, but it can only effectively stop the physical sets.
---

I understand the sheer power and versatility of Salamence, but I'm not entirely convinced that it decimates the OU tier. Nor am I completely sure it doesn't belong in Ubers. Before I joined Smogon, I heard so much talk about Latias' suspect test. So far, on every OU team of mine (before her banishment), I've used Latias. Why? She had amazing defensive and offensive potential, and pretty much halted the metagame. Once she was banned, obviously I was pissed. But I agreed with the decision one hundred percent. I'm not entirely sure for either side in the Salamence argument, because I haven't seen enough evidence to promote its banishment or stay from/in OU.

EDIT: There is one major problem in the comparison between OU/Uber and UU/BL. BL is a middle-ground between OU and UU; but it is partly determined by usage. I don't know the exact numbers, so I'll make it up. If a Pokemon is used once in twenty teams, it is considered OU. Fair enough, but let's say Raikou is used once in twenty five teams. By default, it should be UU. But it is broken in UU. So it goes to the middle-ground; BL. BL doesn't serve much of a purpose, and those Pokemon in retrospect are actually in the OU tier, they just don't have OU status. The OU/Uber split, however, is not determined by usage at all. It is solely based on the decision made by Smogon. There is no "maths" involved, whatsoever. Just whether a Pokemon should be banned or not.

 

[Chou Toshio]

This has already been largely addressed by others, but just to be clear about this—nothing we do relating to pokemon Policy is in the direct interest of fun. Nothing. Arriving at a "more fun" metagame will always require some roundabout, completely subjective route. It's not even in Doug's Characteristics of a more desirable metagame, a thread I know you posted in with the same thoughts but one where I specifically addressed the notion of fun with respect to competition:

The infamous words of Herm Edwards have never been more applicable: "You play to win the game". It's going to be hard to argue against this and appeal to "fun", in my opinion....Everything that is remotely competitive can be perceived as "too serious or cutthroat".
​

I'll leave this alone. We both have our own understanding on what influence fun/opinions have in affecting people's conception of what is/isn't Uber.

This line of thinking has been cut many times before—finalizing tiers for Gen IV will always be relevant. A decent Gen V simulator will likely not be completed for another good 18 months from now, assuming only nontrivial mechanics changes (which is a bad assumption actually), meaning people will be playing Gen IV for a long time after the Council reaches its decision on Salamence. Regardless, it's not going to take three months to decide on its tiering, lol...where did you pull that figure out of? I am on record stating that one of the main purposes of the council is expediting and streamlining the Suspect Test Process—the first iteration of the Council would be a monumental failure in that respect if it took four full months to decide on one pokemon.

Of course finalizing Gen IV tiers is relevant, for gamer history-- but as for the general population of competitive players, Gen V will markedly close the book on playing Gen IV. For myself, being just one of those general players, this is definitely the case. I will certainly not be alone amongst players who choose to completely ignore Gen IV's meta once Gen V is released.

Where did you draw the figure 18 months for a Gen V simulator? Even if we don't know battle mechanics, we DO know that there is full compatibility between Gen III/IV pokemon and Gen V (as pokemon will be transferrable). This puts a decidedly limiting factor in terms of altered mechanics.

Keeping that in mind, Shoddy is terrifically flexible software for simulating 1 v. 1 battle for Gen IV. Over the years of Gen IV, players have been repeatedly astounded at the speed at which the new game mechanics have been incorporated to the simulator. Alternate forms, movepool changes, all of these incorporated to the simulator within a week or two of the release of the given game. Not to mention all the experience Doug and others have been accruing through the CAP project.

No, even if there are a hundred new pokemon, new moves and items, I think it's safe to assume that a working Gen V simulator could be built from shoddy within a month or two after B&W's release. There will be tremendous demand and pressure for this to happen too, so there will be a lot of people who step up to help Doug with the process (and yeah, I do feel bad kind of making the assumption that he will be the man to take up the reigns of the project-- sorry Doug, thanks for all your work . . .).


edit: On a personal note, either way, I pretty much will not be playing Gen IV shoddy when Gen V comes out. I am definitely picking up a copy and wifi battling exclusively (once I manage to finish IV breeding/catching) until the simulator is up. I speak just for myself, but my Japanese is near-fluent, and in August, I actually move to Japan to work for the next few years . . . so yeah . . . Sayonara lol

Again I say this because I highly doubt I will be the only one to face Gen V in this manner-- there will be a number of players who do the same, whether they face the language barrier or not.

 

[DevilinDenial]

Before some idiot comes in and mentions Cresselia

*Completely ignoring
Cresselia does very well at stopping LO Outrage and Draco Meteor, and only needs a Calm nature(325 SpDef) to never be 2HKOed by Specs Draco Meteor. It can also switch into a NewMixMence set using Draco Meteor with Stealth Rock, and assuming no Dragon Dance beforehand can proceed to take an Outrage. If you do Max Damage on both hits there is a chance to be KOed only if you're in a Sandstorm. Reflect Cresselia and Trick are the most viable in OU(This is from experience). Reflect causes major issues for Tar and is problematic for Scizor. It's too bad Cress doesn't learn Recover, really...

almost every Uber has one or two reasonable counters

Groudon with Swords Dance 2HKOs Cresselia with Fire Punch. Palkia eats the universe, being only beaten by Latias on a good day, the list goes on. If you play Ubers you should no that there are no Uber counters, solely checks. Even looking at the analysis' of Ubers there are several mentions of X or Y being uncounterable. Theorymon and (very)small experience in Ubers over.

Dragonite doesn't even make close to a viable mixed attacker, nor does it function as well as a DDancer because of a lower Base Speed. You have that freedom of not opting to run an Ice Shard user.

I completely disagree that Dragonite doesn't make a viable Mixed Attacker: Because of SuperPower it is actually a bit better at coming in more than once. Speed isn't much of an issue for Wall Breakers like Nite, it comes in on things that need to switch out and then proceed to take out. DDNite isn't as good as Mence is as a DDer if you aren't taking hits, from DD turn on it is just as threatening.

When Latias was OU, Scarf Tyranitar, a set that makes no sense otherwise(Tyranitar needs the extra power and ends up losing to a lot of things it can otherwise beat) rose to prominence. This is an example of centralization. Scarftar is better at nothing except Pursuiting the occasional un-subbed Gengar without worrying about Focus Blast, something (specially)defensive CBTar does just about as well. I have seen nothing that really changed in countering from OU w/Mence to Suspect: Scizor still uses Bullet Punch, Weavile/Mamoswine is still great at finishing off Breloom who just got a kill and Steel Types still stop Outrages from Flygon, Kingdra and Dragonite while walling another ton of types. Bronzong still beats non-Magnet Rise Magnezone, Jirachi still runs Ice Punch(Gliscor/Zapdos) and Scizor still loves Bullet Punch. I have still yet to see a Grass type use HP Ice for Sally either. Either I'm asleep or I'm missing the centralization.

Regardless of anything, the Uber tier sucks: It is a subjective tier, making these decisions stupidly difficult.