OU The future of RBY OU in Smogon

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unban me from Discord
is a Two-Time Past SPL Champion
yo I just see this topic, sorry if I'm late to the party so eh I can only say so much that isn't repeated a million times by now

If you ban the Normals for being too good and the Psychics for being too good and Wrap and Sleep and... Uhh, you're just playing UU now. :blobshrug: Looks like everyone else already noticed and this topic became a shitshow real quick, though.

It’s pretty clear that with the release of Gen 8 RBY faces the threat of removal from official tournaments, and even if the slow development of low tiers will probably keep this tier alive for SPL11, it will be no doubt removed in future editions if nothing changes. I want to try and work out a way to save this tier in time - we have one year to make changes and one SPL11 to prove that RBY can be good before we get axed forever, the optimist in me wants to believe that we can make this time count and change enough minds in time for SPL12.
Again, format quality has nothing to do with RBY getting dropped, and it won't affect GSC getting dropped either. This has been the plan for a year and a half now. The Tournament Policy forum would be the place to try to change that. You don't need to "fix" RBY, just come up with a 12-slot alternative that the TDs agree with. Heads up that increasing the number of formats wasn't on the table back then and probably still is not being considered.
14-16 slots problem solved and literally everyone on this website that isn't part of the TD team seems to want this.

Snorlax isn't even that bulky when you consider that most Psychics usually 3HKO it (with Special drops or crits, though Zam can without), most physical attackers 3HKO it, and it's slower than everything so it's always going to get hit twice (or eat status from even the likes of Eggy and Lapras) before firing off an attack if not double switched in. It can hard even beat Chansey since that's just a Freeze waiting to happen. It's honestly insane how overrated Snorlax is, it's only "good" because Selfdestruct ultimately near-guarantees it trades when it inevitably does nothing else useful. Why does Snorlax always checks Snorlax? It's not really because Snorlax is oh-so-unstoppable, it's because Snorlax is the worst mon on most people's teams to give up the trade. It's uncool when Lax chunks 85% out of your Tauros because Tauros is actually good... eh, just throw your own Lax at it instead.

Lax rant done, more generally you just seem to hate Normal-types for not interacting much with the type chart. Zam is a better duelist than Tauros, it just isn't as good a cleaner in the context of a 6v6 match because its fellow Psychic types all resist one another, plus Chansey being Chansey, whereas Tauros doesn't resist Tauros. The biggest threat Chansey presents is that it'll eventually Freeze something, since it sure isn't actually killing anything. The Psychics are just as broken as the Normals, the only difference is that they keep each other in check instead of tear each other apart.

Sleep is obviously broken, that's literally why Sleep Clause exists. Broken enough to ban entirely? Eh. Sleep move distribution is low (choice in teambuilding), they're inaccurate (initial risk), and there is even some strategy in the players trying to maneuver their switches in such a way as to minimize its negative impact on their battle plans. I don't like how the modern metagame has developed into basically sleep leads + Zam but I don't consider dislike for whether I think something should be banned.

Honestly, it's a bit amusing that you criticize some of the best players this tier has seen by claiming they're being "stubborn about their traditions" when you have failed to provide a single good point as to why RBY should be kept in SPL for any reason other than tradition in the first place. Is there any reason this tier is kept in our tournaments other than the fact it's been part of them historically?
Does there need to be another reason? I don't like how we're trying to change SPL into something it originally wasn't. The whole point was to play all OUs in a standard team format, a spiritual successor to the Sneak tournies of old or to be seen as a non-regional version of the old interboard tournies and WCOP. RBY OU should be kept in SPL because it's literally not SPL anymore if you change it, it's just a new tourney with the same label.

I would also gladly take your finger when gsc gets axed from spl too. The old guard of the tier is getting old, which i think is becoming apparent as of this spl, and while lavos, bkc, and whoever else may be big fans of it while proving they are also some of the best players on this site, they alone don't make up a full competitive field.
Don't blame the tier for team managers having severe brain damage to where they don't even buy good, regular players of the tier.
Like I said before, there’s nothing inherently wrong with the current meta. If anything, from a competitive point it’s better because it’s a lot more diverse in terms of viable Pokémon and team strategies.

People just got used to a fast offensive meta and they don’t like that the meta has become slower and more like GSC.

It’s a shame people hate this meta because I think there’s so much potential that hasn’t been tapped yet. Pokémon like dodrio and Pinsir who are difficult to switch into for most Pokémon but are held back by not being able to switch into anything are made more viable with wrappers who can get them in unscathed.

That’s just one example. I’m seeing counter a lot more too as a response to the increase in reflect laxes. I personally think it’s great that there are new options to explore.
Tbh dodrio is just a worse zapdos and pinsir is bad (bad matchup vs zap, lap, starmie, rhydon.. almost everything).

Counter has always been an option, but it comes to the price of dropping coverage (counter toss is walled by rhydon and counter ib is walled by zam, jynx, starmie and lapras), it's a good move tho, and people using quite a lot reflect boom lax helps it


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counter also turns the game into brainless guessing games, in most games you don't have enough information to know whether your opp has it or not until it's too late, it's uncommon enough that if you consistently scout it you're gonna lose a significant % of extra games due to not clicking body slam when you could be clicking body slam and if you don't consistently scout it you'll lose the occasional game when your opponent brings counter

I'm not saying it needs a ban necessarily but let's not act like an increase in counter chansey would at all fix any of the problems this tier has, it just adds more pure guessing


A=X+Y+Z Y: Hard Work
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i don't like such a mechanism.
if a user's HP is 0, 255 or 511 fewer than the maximum value, rest, soft-boiled and recover won't be effective.
besides, if i don't care whether i win or lose, this tier will give me fun
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Tbh dodrio is just a worse zapdos and pinsir is bad (bad matchup vs zap, lap, starmie, rhydon.. almost everything).

Counter has always been an option, but it comes to the price of dropping coverage (counter toss is walled by rhydon and counter ib is walled by zam, jynx, starmie and lapras), it's a good move tho, and people using quite a lot reflect boom lax helps it
It’s not really a worse Zapdos, dodrio is much better at hit and run. It has better attack so assuming no Rhydon it can just spam physical attacks and nothing will want to switch into it. Zapdos has to guess what’s coming in in order to do meaningful damage. It’s problem has always been that it can’t switch in to anything (and Rhydon too but it can at least paralyse Rhydon unlike Zapdos or you can even run toxic without sacrificing a key moveslot).

I don’t get the point of mentioning Pinsirs 1v1s when it’s supposed to be a hit and run Pokémon or be used to trade with a more valuable Pokémon like Chansey or lax. Rhydon loses 1v1 to most Pokemon in the meta but that doesn’t stop it from being a top 3 filler mon.
Okay, this thread derailed quite a bit for the last pages

As a member of the RBY OG Council I would like to say that we plan on sending a simple opinion survey to the current active RBY playerbase to gather their opinion about the tier and the different issues (if they are) mentioned here, to see if further discussion about the tier is required (or if a specific topic should be open for debate)

If some RBY players are interested in helping with that, don't hesitate to send me a message @Peasounay#6956

Will make sure to give out news soon


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Keep in mind that historically speaking it is generally somewhat ill-advised to majorly revise and change past metagames. I get it that that isn't a particularly healthy mindset in terms of competitive play but you have to keep in mind that the further you change a metagame the more the playerbase will be put on a constraint. RBY isn't exactly a high traffic metagame compared to any of the new gens. First of all a truly democratic test will not be particularly feasible because of a small sample size of players, which means an oligarchic decision is the most likely to begin with. Not exactly in the modern tiering spirit either.
If you actually make changes to established metagames you tend to drive away parts of the playerbase. It's not gonna be half of all players saying fuck it and never playing it again, but in a tournament environment where you aren't talking masses of players to begin with you might want to be extra careful with your tiering decisions. I am kind of a hardliner there and I think a metagame can never be perfect to begin with because every player has a different grasp on it and two opinions will most likely never be identical. That being said I'd advise the playerbase and the council to only take action if it is deemed to significantly improve the state of the game, not just the opinions of a few. I myself won't give an opinion on that topic at this point in time.
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