Serious the grinch who stole winter solstice

[mattj]

From your average TV show:
[youtube]zoj6vQHdzHo[/youtube]

From the Discovery Channel:
[youtube]85FNMUU1eiA[/youtube]

The first of a series from the History Channel:
[youtube]20PQPrHFjnA[/youtube]

A condensed version of the History Channel series:
[youtube]lT-Mms2t1hA[/youtube]

Although some evidence suggests that his birth may have occurred in the spring (why would shepherds be herding in the middle of winter?), Pope Julius I chose December 25. It is commonly believed that the church chose this date in an effort to adopt and absorb the traditions of the pagan Saturnalia festival.

Christmas — History.com Articles, Video, Pictures and Facts

Away with the manger—in with the Solstice!

For a fact, the Christians stole Christmas. We don't mind sharing the season with them, but we don't like their pretense that it is the birthday of Jesus. It is the Birthday of the Unconquered Sun—Dies Natalis Invicti Solis.

Christmas is a relic of sun worship.

The Christians Stole Christmas | Debate Club | US News Opinion

It's that time of year again! Thanksgiving is just barely over. The Christmas music has begun playing, and the ads and decorations have all gone up. Rosy-eared shopkeepers everywhere are tucked warmly in their beds, heads full of dreams of crazed mobs trampling elderly women and each other for their overpriced wares. If you're like my family, you started planning out (read: "arguing over") which families you'd be visiting months in advance in your annual, fruitless attempt to appease everyone.

While Christmas is celebrated different ways in different parts of the world, it's pretty much celebrated everywhere, by someone, in one form or another. The legitimate question comes up every Christmas season; how did this all start? Why do people put up Christmas trees, or hang wreaths, or give presents, or bake cookies, or hang lights, or do whatever tradition you do wherever you live? What are the origins of Christmas?

While we all know the line given by the church-at-large, up above you'll find just a sampling of the explanations commonly repeated on tv, and online around this time of year. According to the talking heads with walls full of degrees, pagan celebrations such as Saturnalia and other Winter Solstice-ey types of celebrations predate any thoughts of Christmas by ages. Somewhere along the line, those devious, scheming Christians decided that in order to survive they should absorb, and/or overshadow all these different holidays (some of which the "Christian world" hadn't even met yet!) in a dastardly attempt to confuse and convert more pagan followers. As Christianity hoarded more and more power to itself, the celebration of Christmas eventually overshadowed all other winter time celebrations, until it basically became the sole option we see today (like, who actually celebrates Saturnalia lol!).

But is this actually how it happened? Was there actually an ulterior motive behind the date and celebrations? Or was it an honest coincidence that Christmas came to be celebrated on December 25th? But then, what about the many trappings that sure do seem to be similar to those of old, pagan holidays? And considering that we're discussing such an ancient event, is there really even any way to know for certain?

 

[Eagle4]

This seems like a pretty pointless thread to me, discussing where Christmas originated from is a little... useless and boring. Anyway, I strongly believe Christmas is too commercialised and fake nowadays, what with christmas sales appearing in mid-october, Christmas albums and other money-making producrs which were only introduced for Christmas so that companies could exploit people and gain money.

 

[mattj]

I'll admit it's not the hippest thread ever written (GLEN HALP ME) but it is an important subject for a lot of people. I go to church with, and know a ton of people, who refuse to celebrate Christmas because they believe it is a strictly pagan holiday. There are entire denominations of churches who refuse to celebrate it. And of course, our atheist friends love to rub it in our faces.

But is it true? Why or why not?

 

[moonbound]

I'm pretty sure it had something to do with gaining Roman converts by taking a holiday they already celebrated and "Christianizing" it. I don't see it as stealing because it's ridiculous to think a group can own a day.

 

[zorbees]

is there any evidence that it wasn't converted from a pagan holiday?

 

[mattj]

For anyone who objects to the word "stealing" it's being used very liberally, even by those like the co-head of the Fredom From Religion Foundation, in that quote up there. Of course you can't abscond with a holiday. The intent is that early church leadership purposefully picked the date December 25th in order to absorb/hijack/take over the holiday celebrations that pre-existed Christmas, and in some cases Christianity itself, in order to gain converts. Is this true or not? And why do you believe it to be so?

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

It all turned out right in the end, at least for us Germans, we get to party on the winter solstice, tell our children about magic men that fly on reindeer, and decorate trees, like the good ol' days. All we need to do is cut down the biggest tree in the forest and set it on fire for a week while parting, and everything will have come full circle.

 

[capefeather]

It depends on what you mean by "celebrating" Christmas. Some religious people might say they don't "celebrate" Christmas, but what they're really doing is ignoring everything except the celebration of Jesus's birth, which is what "really matters" in the Christian definition of Christmas. Either that or they're saying that there's no point in picking out a date to celebrate Jesus's birth. People can squabble about that, whatever.

I don't think the history of Christianity really matters that much at all. I don't see it as a reason to reject it; if it should be rejected, it should be for different, more substantial reasons. The fact is that the Romans accepted Christianity at some point and played around with it a lot until it became Roman Catholicism as it is today. Caring so much about that is like hating Santa Claus because his modern image mostly comes from Coca-Cola. What's the point?

 

[breh]

This seems like a pretty pointless thread to me, discussing where Christmas originated from is a little... useless and boring. Anyway, I strongly believe Christmas is too commercialised and fake nowadays, what with christmas sales appearing in mid-october, Christmas albums and other money-making producrs which were only introduced for Christmas so that companies could exploit people and gain money.

The first statement is pretty much what I thought and I really wish that this thread was about the increasing commercialization of Christmas and the encroachment of the holiday upon other holidays.

If a person doesn't celebrate Christmas because he or she believes that it's a Pagan holiday, that's ridiculously stupid justification. In America (can't say anything about Europe), almost every culture celebrates Christmas, at least with respect to gift giving (my family is Jewish and always gets a tree; I know other Jewish friends whose families do the same) and it's become less and less of a religious holiday as time has passed. Yes, there is still an element of religion behind it, but it's not overwhelmingly pronounced (I dare you, try to find a single holiday cartoon that mentions the word "Jesus"). The moral focus of Christmas is to bring joy in a literally dark time; I can't see how it's wrong to do so because its date coincides with solstice celebrations from hundreds of years ago.

 

[iDunno]

It could have been seen as a coincidence if it weren't for the fact that every christian holiday conveniently coincides with a pagan holiday and most modern christian traditions are derived from pagan traditions.

 

[billymills]

yea probably, but who really cares..

 

[mattj]

I really wish that this thread was about the increasing commercialization of Christmas and the encroachment of the holiday upon other holidays.

Anyway, I strongly believe Christmas is too commercialised and fake nowadays, what with christmas sales appearing in mid-october, Christmas albums and other money-making producrs which were only introduced for Christmas so that companies could exploit people and gain money.

*clicky*

yea probably, but who really cares..

I'll admit it's not the hippest thread ever written (GLEN HALP ME) but it is an important subject for a lot of people. I go to church with, and know a ton of people, who refuse to celebrate Christmas because they believe it is a strictly pagan holiday. There are entire denominations of churches who refuse to celebrate it. And of course, our atheist friends love to rub it in our faces.

But is it true? Why or why not?

plenty of people care

 

[billymills]

I'll admit it's not the hippest thread ever written (GLEN HALP ME) but it is an important subject for a lot of people. I go to church with, and know a ton of people, who refuse to celebrate Christmas because they believe it is a strictly pagan holiday. There are entire denominations of churches who refuse to celebrate it. And of course, our atheist friends love to rub it in our faces.

Some people will just use any excuse not to have fun won't they. Its not like either the pagans or christians were/are celebrating any sort of brutal massacre or devil figure. Why can't people just agree to have fun simultaneously.

 

[Myzozoa]

I think that, in order to increase the appeal of their religion, it is certain that Christianity appropriated aspects of pagan holidays. This doesn't have to be a bad thing, at least for me. I'm not one of those people (r/atheism-ites, you know who you are) who thinks this necessarily makes it less credible somehow. I'm dubious of almost every religion entirely independent of whether or not they borrow elements from other faiths. Nothing develops in a vacuum, I'm sure paganism (which has many variants) borrowed elements of tribal ceremonies and other spiritual forms that came before it as it established itself. This is very natural cultural diffusion. No one would ever argue that Jazz's credibility as musical genre is dependent on its separatism from classical music, all these things are intersectional, nothing arises independently it isn't possible to find an original faith or religion and even if it was possible it wouldn't mean anything for me.

 

[Zacchaeus]

"Yes, but it doesn't matter." As I understand it, the purpose was for a Christian holiday to overwrite a pagan holiday to try and push paganism out of the way. Regardless, I don't see how it's important today

 

[Codraroll]

It actually seems like we've come full circle with this, now that another version of Christmas is slowly overtaking the Christian one. I'm talking about the Disney version.

Yep, Disney. The "new" ideals of Christmas are probably shown a lot of other places and media, but yet again anthropomorphic animals seem to be the best way to explain it.

Look up the term "Christmas special" in the library of your mind. At the top of your head, how many TV shows can you think of with a special Christmas themed episode, annual tradition or not? How many games refer to Christmas somewhere in a snowy world? It seems like media is actively embracing the holiday.

However, the "holiness" of it is mostly thrown out of the window. Yes, there are trees, candles, stars, snow, etc, etc, but no Christ in the mass that bears his name. Did Donald Duck ever go to church before/after visiting Grandma? Was there a service of prayer and psalms during Christmas celebration at Hogwarts? How many cribs and angels can you find in the Christmas-themed LEGO sets? Still, were there any ideals shown, or any reason to actually celebrate this content-less feast in the middle of the F-ing winter? Oh yes.

Instead of a religious feast, Christmas is depicted as a festival of care. It's the time of the year when you go to extraordinary lengths to be together with your family (National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation, various Donald Duck stories). It's the time to drag the poor and forgotten into the warmth. The time to give the children the presents they deserve. Or simply time to celebrate that the darkest time of the year has passed (believe me, when you live far enough north, you will be happy for this). The time of year when villains show their soft sides and the good guys strive even harder to be good. Christmas is a figurative oasis of light and warmth in the dark and cold season. A mood-booster, something to look forward to during the wet and depressing autumn and those winter days before the first snow falls, when frost really bites. A reason to like the winter, if you like. In media, and many places in the real world, people don't care too much about that guy who may or may not have been born a couple thousand years ago. Though, the symbolism might still persist. You might see a bright star or two, or even a crib here and there. And of course, unless the medium is politically correct to the point of OCD, the holiday will always be referred to as "Christmas".

I actually like this new Christmas. The new ideals might have grown up around the religious core, and they appear to thrive well without it. I'm fond of the Christmas story as told by Luke, and I'm fond of the not-at-all-Christian Disneyfied Chrismas themes.

Oh, and it's less than a month left now! Who's excited?

 

[Chou Toshio]

you need the boondocks video too

 

[DDRMaster]

I don't think they stole it, but they did put it there on purpose to convert the Pagans. Jesus wasn't born in Winter and the only reason we have Christmas trees is because of Pagans.