The importance of Blissey and Special Walls

StarmanXL

StarmanXL

First off, let me say that this thread is NOT about Blissey's tier placement, or reasons for moving it to Ubers or anything like that, so please don't come in here trying to make a debate/flame war about that, 'kay?

Alright, so I was reading the new tier list, and in the comments, Jumpman16 stated that the reason Blissey won't be moved to Ubers is because special sweepers would rape the metagame in her absence. I admit that I'm not experienced enough in the metagame to argue for or against this statement, but it does lead me to be curious about something else; the overall importance of special walls/tanks to metagame.

Now, let me back-track a moment. This may seem a bit off topic, but I'm a huge Slowking fan, and I use one as a special wall. However, whenever I see Slowbro compared to Slowking, the common consensus is that Slowbro is better or that Slowking just flat-out sucks. The reason? Slowbro is a physical wall, whereas Slowking is a special wall, and physical walling > special walling. Now, this topic isn't about Slowbro vs. Slowking--it's just an example--but it makes me think, is special walling really that worthless? Some pokemon, like Cressilia and Milotic, can do it, but is it still all that useful? I've been told that special walls are neglected because Blissey exists as a catch-all wall, but why is this? Could they really be that fail, or do they have potential?

All in all, what I want to ask is, if Blissey is a necessary evil, then how much is the metagame held together by her? Also, is special walling in general a pointless task, and other special walls/tanks also pointless, or do they still have some importance in competitive battling?


Man, I probably got this across all wrong, but still...
 
It's basically because Blissey outclasses every special wall. Slowbro doesn't have to compete with the be all end all of physical wals, because there isn't one. Every physical wall has different strengths and weaknesses, but Blissey has all the strengths of a special wall and only one weakness. (Physical attacks in general)

Basically, Slowking doesn't suck, it's just it can never hope to do as good a job at walling as Blissey.
 
Walling is more about Prediction and Resistances in D/P. Blissey is quite possibly the only Special Wall in D/P which can take a Special hit from just about anything, without having to rely on Prediction or a Resistance. This is why she is used.

Electric attacks are so common that Milotic isn't used for it's Special Defensive capabilities most of the time, but now in D/P it could work to a degree. Since Milotic does now have Physical weaknesses, but that's why resistance plays more of a part than ever in D/P IMO. The same will go for Slowking.
 
Nasty Plot SlowKing would say otherwise...

Now anyway, let me explain some special sweepers right now. 252 Salamence gets 60.49 in my attack tiers. Draco Meteor is 51.85. Specs and STAB is an additional 4.25 and 4.25. And "Guarentee" magic number is 3.53. (Look here for the numbers)

End Result? Specsmence OHKOs anyone with defense tier ~117 or less. And does 50%+ to anyone with a defense tier 124 or less. Beefy guys like Dusknoir and Porygon2 are almost OHKOed by this beast (the 117 tier) and only two pokemon are above the 124 tier mark naturally are Chansey and Blissey. And of course, vs Dragons, SpecsMence always kills with the Meteor.

Slowking is 119, Umbreon is 120 on these lists.

Granted, you can throw some EVs into your pokemon to attempt to get above 117... but you get the drift.

Special Hitters hit HARD now. They did not need the Choice Specs :-/ You should see Nasty Plot Porygon-Z... 62.02 pokemon, 45.98 Tri-Attack, 7.27 Nasty Plot, 7.27 Adaptability/Stab modifier -3.53 == OHKOs 119.01 and below, Two-Hit KO 126.28 and below. That is Two-Hit KO everyone but Blissey. And another Nasty Plot can fix that right up.
 
Ubers does have something akin to a wall anyways...that annoying blue blob known as Wobbufett. While someone can rape it, the counter/mirror coat fire is a little too much to bear; hence why it isn't used all that often (I was able to take one out with my Lucario but that was after using my Gyarados to Taunt it and than used Flash Cannon and Dragon Pulse).

The reason I think Blissey wasn't put into the Uber tier is because nearly everything up there can use Aura Sphere or other Fighting type moves...which can smash Blissey to pieces even when getting no STAB!

Blissey also has no resistances and two weakspots; it can't hit Gengar or or Giratina and Machamp, Hariyama, Lucario, the Hitmon's (just continue the list if you want all the Fighting types) destroy it utterly. The only reasons it is used is either to special wall or in combination with its other wall partner, Skarmory.

This is why I have a Milotic and combine it with a Torterra as the two make quite a nice team. Milotic can eat Ice moves and Torterra can eat Grass and Electric moves.

Still though, others may have more insight into this and this is all my opinion on the matter.
 
Whitesky12480 said:
Ubers does have something akin to a wall anyways...that annoying blue blob known as Wobbufett. While someone can rape it, the counter/mirror coat fire is a little too much to bear; hence why it isn't used all that often (I was able to take one out with my Lucario but that was after using my Gyarados to Taunt it and than used Flash Cannon and Dragon Pulse).

The reason I think Blissey wasn't put into the Uber tier is because nearly everything up there can use Aura Sphere...which can smash Blissey to pieces even when getting no STAB!
Click to expand...

UBERs is a banned faux tier. It isn't a balanced tier.

Blissey also has no resistances and two weakspots; it can't hit Gengar or or Giratina and Machamp, Hariyama, Lucario, the Hitmon's (just continue the list if you want all the Fighting types) destroy it utterly. The only reasons it is used is either to special wall or in combination with its other wall partner, Skarmory.

This is why I have a Milotic and combine it with a Torterra as the two make quite a nice team. Milotic can eat Ice moves and Torterra can eat Grass and Electric moves.

Still though, others may have more insight into this and this is all my opinion on the matter.
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Calm Mind Bolt/Beam Softboil blissey seems more common now because it is harder to get an Advance Generation Seismic Toss blissey into D/P, especially for those people who don't own an Advance generation game.

So Gengar is the one who can't hit Blissey with a STAB attack. :-p
 
If Blissey goes, Raikou, Azelf, and Porygon-Z will dominate the metagame. Slowking isn't inferior to Slowbro because special walling is inferior to physical walling; Slowking is a bad special wall because it is weak to some very common special attacks, such as Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball, and Grass Knot. As for Slowbro, physical bug attacks are essentially only used on Heracross, and Crunch isn't too common either.
 
Heck, Blissey doesn't even USE boltbeam-just Ice Beam. The only thing Thunderbolt would be good for on Blissey is to hit Gyrados, and it is going to taunt you, negating Blissey's usefulness. And to Whitesky, the Hitmon's aren't used in OU often, and Hariyama is defensive.
 
Whitesky12480 said:
True but Gengar has enough Special Attack to hit with a Focus Blast and force a switch.

Still though, that was my opinion and I admitted that there are others who might have more insight on this than I do.
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According to Metalkid's calculator, a 252 HP 252 Def (physical defense) Blissey eats that focus blast for breakfast: Damage: 25.91% - 30.53%

Yeah, and then the 30% miss rate... that doesn't help gengar that much.
 
Whitesky12480 said:
True but Gengar has enough Special Attack to hit with a Focus Blast and force a switch.

Still though, that was my opinion and I admitted that there are others who might have more insight on this than I do.
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Modest SpecsGar does 46.6-54.9% with Focus Blast against 714/307 Bliss. With 70% accuracy and Softboiled, special Gar isn't really a big deal to Bliss. 704/343 Blissey can't be 2HKOed by SpecsGar in a sandstorm. That's 212 HP / 252 Def / 24 SDef / 20 whatever. That's the incredible power of Blissey. With only a nature and 236 EVs (and still decent physical defense, but without the nature), Blissey can survive a 120 power SE attack from the highest SA that can learn it in standard. Now if we add STAB, it's a totally different discussion.
 
Methinks we're getting a bit off topic...this isn't about how good Blissey is, but how important she is to the metagame, and the importance of Special Walling overall.
 
Havak said:
Walling is more about Prediction and Resistances in D/P. Blissey is quite possibly the only Special Wall in D/P which can take a Special hit from just about anything, without having to rely on Prediction or a Resistance. This is why she is used.
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QFE.

Azelf, Raikou, Porygon-Z (which can kill Blissey) and all those other nasty Special Attackers can all be handled by different Pokemon. It just so happens Blissey walls them all, which is why she is used. Necessary to the metagame? I wouldn't go as far to say that; many teams function fine without Blissey. Uber? Definitely not.
 
Sciz said:
Modest SpecsGar does 46.6-54.9% with Focus Blast against 714/307 Bliss. With 70% accuracy and Softboiled, special Gar isn't really a big deal to Bliss. 704/343 Blissey can't be 2HKOed by SpecsGar in a sandstorm. That's 212 HP / 252 Def / 24 SDef / 20 whatever. That's the incredible power of Blissey. With only a nature and 236 EVs (and still decent physical defense, but without the nature), Blissey can survive a 120 power SE attack from the highest SA that can learn it in standard. Now if we add STAB, it's a totally different discussion.
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Just for clarification, Alakazam has the strongest unSTABed Focus Blast in standard, not Gengar. Not that it is that great of a difference.
 
It is like a guaranteed win when you get rid of your opponents physical sweepers. Cause this sponge will absorb anything. Even it is capable of taking special hits its physical weakness puts it to ou as with people running garchomps it is not a big deal to worry eventhough it learns ice beam. the thing is that special attackers need to be careful to watch out for this as it can quickly recover and annoy as it seems the best. I think some of the spec attackers can leave a spot for explosion as it still may get use agains it. i wonder what would happen a calm minder blissey versus a calmminder bliss
 
Well, IMO, most Sp Sweepers are built for their Spd and SA. I personally don't have a problem with Sp Sweepers because I run things that outrun most of them with or without CScarf, either with good prediction or a revenge kill, and hit them with a OHKO in any case because they are very fragile. It's either that, or just use Blissey in a slot and throw it out there when I see Starmie, Gengar, or Alakazam, because Blissey requires almost no skill to use. :)

So, is walling necessary to the OU Metagame? I don't think so, but they certainly do help. Just like Stealth Rock, muha. Is Blissey necessary to the OU Metagame? Not at all, but it certainly helps, and it does pretty much stop any Sp Sweeper. Sing and T-Wave are a bitch, here. :|

TBH, Trick Room Rhyperior gives me more trouble.
 
Whitesky12480 said:
Ubers does have something akin to a wall anyways...that annoying blue blob known as Wobbufett.
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Wobbuffet, like most other ubers, can easily die in 2 hits in the hard-hitting ubers metagame. Because of this, it can't really switch in and live to use mirror coat/counter very effectively. It's not a serious "wall" and is much more a gimmick.


Whitesky12480 said:
The reason I think Blissey wasn't put into the Uber tier is because nearly everything up there can use Aura Sphere or other Fighting type moves...which can smash Blissey to pieces even when getting no STAB!
Click to expand...

This simply isn't true. With Calm, Blissey is still not 2HKOed by the majority of Special Fighting moves, and can thus wall extremely effectively. In fact, the more threatening Special Attacks in ubers are huge STAB, boosted, normally-effective moves like a Kyogre Water Spout.

Having a Fighting Special move is NOT a Blissey counter, in any tier.

Blissey is the best special wall in the game, even above any uber/legendary ever created in all of Pokemon. She is used on virtually every ubers team, because she can wall the best, even there.


More importantly, a poke is not put into ubers because it can perform well there. It is put into Ubers because it is too powerful for the tier below it (OU).

====================

Blissey is SUCH an effective special wall in OU, that she doesn't even need to run Calm, with NO Sp.Def EVs, and can STILL wall virtually every Special move in the game.

Special Sweepers need to have custom builds to overcome Blissey (things like sub/focus punch, 101 subs, nasty plot, calm mind+recover, etc etc) to overcome Blissey. It's not like the physical side of the game, where switching in a different physical threat with one new move will force you to switch to a different wall. When Blissey shows her face, you either need to switch to physical, or switch to an anti-Blissey special sweeper.

====================

Dragontamer said:
End Result? Specsmence OHKOs anyone with defense tier ~117 or less.
Click to expand...

Those numbers are quite scary, and fascinating.

I wonder, though, how it is on the physical side of the spectrum? Is there any physical wall that can withstand, say, CB Garchomp Outrage if you don't factor in resistances like that?


What's interesting to me, is that Blissey can take all of that like a pro, without giving a damn about having to resist the attack or not.


Dragontamer said:
Special Hitters hit HARD now. They did not need the Choice Specs :-/ You should see Nasty Plot Porygon-Z... 62.02 pokemon, 45.98 Tri-Attack, 7.27 Nasty Plot, 7.27 Adaptability/Stab modifier -3.53 == OHKOs 119.01 and below, Two-Hit KO 126.28 and below. That is Two-Hit KO everyone but Blissey. And another Nasty Plot can fix that right up.
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Remember that Nasty Plot requires a turn of setup, so you can switch into something that boosts and heal even if it would 2HKO you after it boosted (if you are slower).
 
Those numbers are quite scary, and fascinating.

I wonder, though, how it is on the physical side of the spectrum? Is there any physical wall that can withstand, say, CB Garchomp Outrage if you don't factor in resistances like that?
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<3 Attack Tiers.

252 Garchomp: 61.73
Outrage (120 base): 50.23
Choice Band: 4.25
STAB: 4.25
Magic Number: 3.53

Guarenteed OHKOs everything 116.92 tier or less. Two-Hit KO everything 124.20 or less.

Change that Choice Band into a Swords Dance and you get 119.95 for OHKO and 127.22 for Two-Hit KO.

116 is Porygon2, Glaceon, and so forth for Physical Defenses.
119 is Tyranitar, Shuckle, Umbreon, Slobro
123 is the highest tier with Regirock and Steelix. So Outrage w/o resistances is a guarenteed 2-hit KO on every non-EVed pokemon in the game...
124 is 255/255 hp/def T-Tar
127+ is reached only by Giratina, Steelix, and Regirock with 255/255 hp/def EV spread.

Then comes the fact that the above was a guarenteed KO calculation :-p ~1 to 2 tiers above includes the "chance of KO". Oh, and Lol, I forgot to add Life Orb(+2.7) or Dragon Plate (+1.9) to the Swords Dance Garchomp...

Lesson: Get a Dragon Resist. Seriously. A Dragon Resist changes the number by 7.27 points into your favor. Ex. Scizor may only have 116.48 as a Defense Tier, but with the Dragon Resist that turns into 123.75. Forretress is 119.91 raw, and Skarm is 119.17 raw. They go up to 127+ with the Dragon Resist.

What's interesting to me, is that Blissey can take all of that like a pro, without giving a damn about having to resist the attack or not.
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Blissey has a Sp. Defense tier of 128. The next pokemon is Chansey with a Sp. Defense Tier of 125. Then the next is Regice with Sp. Def of 123. Lugia, the "Great Uber Wall" sits at Sp. Def tier 122.86, and Cresselia sits at 122.06.

Funny. Regice with 255/255 in HP and Sp. Def gets a tier rating of 128.04, next to its crappy resistances. Blissey on the other hand gets hit from everything for neutral (except Focus Blast/Aura Sphere... which Regice gets hurt with anyway) and has a NATURAL Sp. Def tier of 128.03... gets boosted to 129.99 when you go 252 HP EVs.

With 0 EVs in Sp. Def, Blissey beats the 3rd best statistical Wall in the game. And the #2 slot goes into Blissey's pre-evolution.

Furthermore, if Blissey does get hit with a super-effective attack, it "only" makes 7.27 tiers of a difference. 128 - 7.27 == 120.7 ish. What is in the 120 tier? Umbreon, Milotic, Registeel.

Takes hits like a pro? Hell, you're underestimating Blissey. Blissey takes super-effective hits like Aura Sphere and Focus Blast like Milotic and Registeel take NORMAL effective hits.

Or perhaps I should put it this way: Registeel takes a Draco Meteor the same as Blissey... after factoring in the resist.

Blissey is in a defense tier of its own. Hell, the 3 tiers difference between Blissey and the #2 wall... Chansey tells you enough of that. And then the 2 tier difference between Chansey and the #3 wall Regice is proof enough of this statement.

Oh yeah. And Calm Mind ups that defense tier by 4.25 points. Lol.
 
@ Dragontamer: All the more reason to love Calm Mind Blissey.

Dragon-type is so broken... When it can 2HKO anything in the metagame that doesn't resist, that screams broken.
 
As said before, it isn't neccessary to have Blissey on your team, in fact some teams may not want Blissey for certain reasons. If I use Blissey on my team over Cresselia, then I would be Infernape weak, and I wouldn't stand a chance if I saw one unless I revenge killed it.
 
Whitesky12480 said:
The reason I think Blissey wasn't put into the Uber tier is because nearly everything up there can use Aura Sphere or other Fighting type moves...which can smash Blissey to pieces even when getting no STAB!
Click to expand...

Uber Bliss and standard OU Bliss are two entirely different builds. OU Bliss focus's on defense, since she doesn't really need SpDef. Uber Bliss couldn't care less what her defense is. Almost everything in ubers is special based, and what IS physical based would almost always OHKO her even with max defense. In ubers, Blissey can almost take special hits better, due to focusing more on SpDef. Even Choice Scarf Kyogre's Water Spout (one of the strongest attacks in the game) doesn't 2HKO 714/405 Blissey, which is what I think a lot of people run in ubers.
 
Electivilug said:
Heck, Blissey doesn't even USE boltbeam-just Ice Beam. The only thing Thunderbolt would be good for on Blissey is to hit Gyrados, and it is going to taunt you, negating Blissey's usefulness. And to Whitesky, the Hitmon's aren't used in OU often, and Hariyama is defensive.
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I don't know that I'd be so quick to write off something with base 120 attack and STAB on fighting moves as "defensive."
 
Ever since advance, you could use just resistance and a bit of defensive EVing to wall physical stuff, but special stuff always needed Snorlax or Blissey. In DP, it's Blissey and Cresslia. You could probably pull off victories without physical walls like Skarm and Weezing by using resistances, but not special walls. Special Pokemon are generally better at sweeping too: Raikou, Azelf, Alakazam etc.
 
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