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NOC The Mafia Invitational (Game Thread) [D2 Deadline: Friday, March 2nd, 6 PM EST]

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Metal Sonic said:
Lock Town - Would never lynch

Empoof: I'm reading a direct, townish feel from his posts. Strong attempts to work with me (as well as other consensus members of town), builds town unity, and efficiently works to progressing the game in a forward direction. Direct attempts to reach out to me to create harmony within town block and to form solid bonds that scum would have difficulty breaking. Reads have been very transparent the entire day allowing for others to easily see his stances and easily work with him. This also makes it difficult for him to falsify reads, and as far as all checks and verification has confirmed, his read progressions have not been unusual -- meeting generic baselines that I have for strong town. I understand that I was knee-jerk scumreading him during RVS, but his later posts and body of work convinced me that I was wrong on that front. Anybody who is scumreading this guy is either off in the head or downright scum. And even scum probably wouldn't be so dumb as to challenge Empoof here today.

lol, wtf, only one

Probably Town - Townreading for now, but not as strong as the above category; small possibility of deep wolf here

Asek: His reads and stances on the game have been mostly clear and generally nothing odd or disturbing I have seen so far. The fact that he backs them up with brief but convincing reasons have also given him some brownie points, such as the use of prior-game meta to sort me/Empoof/thetwinmasters and others. There are marked and noted attempts to generate discussion and maintain a focus on current events in the game (which means, to bring attention to centralizing issues instead of contributing/standing by enabling off-topic and idle spam), which is fantastic for town cohesion. He prompts slots that he has difficulty reading to gain a better read on them, which I rarely see scum do, and also differentiates himself from the townies who simply vote thetwinmasters/DLE/FH indiscriminately, the bulk of which is difficult to distinguish from scum at this point. Also, his image posts and avatar was cute. (note the past tense). However, there are some problems with this slot that prevent him from going to the above tier, such as the points that LightWolf brought up which I, upon further reflection, agree with; namely, the issue of throwing shade onto potential mislynch targets in this game with poor or misleading arguments, if ever so slight. Firstly it was done to KnightofCydonia, and now most recently to Former Hope. I find this a cause for concern that prevents him from becoming top tier town.

LightWolf: Few quantity of posts, but most have been decent in quality. Of note is his wallpost of reads on the entire game, which, although I had commented on it in real-time, I reiterate that it was not responsible for me giving a townread on him. He argued with me for 3 pagesjust to change my summary on that wallpost from "LightWolf is willing to lynch anyone" to "LightWolf is willing to lynch most", honestly kind of lame, but the willingness to engage, as well as to discuss my motivations and thoughts on the game in real-time is more often than not coming from town rather than scum. As Paperblade said pretty well: "With walls you have all the time in the world to carefully construct a post, getting the wording and thoughts in order and make sure there's no obvious mistakes. Interacting with people in real time like LW did with you, you have to come up with stuff on the fly which makes it a lot more difficult to keep your story straight and not slip up"

As with the rest of stronger town on my list, this is one of the best examples of reaching out to me (consensus town) in order to build town unity, and providing (subjective!) helpfuladvice for me to behave more pro-town in order to more effectively achieve my Josh lynch. However, Paperblade also raised a concerning point that "scum lightwolf fucks off after making his wall post", which, honestly, he kind of has. I haven't really seen him post anything recently, which makes me concerned if it was a one-off performance and if Paperblade had some good money on this comment here. Therefore, he isn't in top-tier town now, but there is potential for him later in the game, we will see.

Paperblade: Generally, his tone has sounded towny, but upon further reflection I wonder if this is a poor reason to townread him, considering the multitude of better reasons I had to townread the above. His earliest posts in the game have been pretty awful, but they have gotten better, with visible thought processes as well as remarkable attempts to reach out to town and to engage with my Josh scumread, which serves a town agenda by consolidating town's thought processes and drives constructive discussion: his probing was the sole reason I made a 7-point wall to case Josh, which was, with the exception of this post itself, was the largest and most comprehensive post I had made so far (though generally that was because I was purely phoneposting before this). My main concern with this slot now, is the fact that his main readslist was pretty lackluster, and honestly, upon retroactive viewing, the reasons for his reads were also quite vague. He said early game that a good tell for him-scum was "A better tell is that I'm really bad at making fake cases as mafia because it's hard for me to take the actions of someone I know is town and construe them as scummy." So far, he hasn't made a case on anyone at all, even his readslist was townreading everyone, which makes him unable to promote to top-tier town.

Prophylaxis: Another player with few posts but most of them high quality. I don't blame him because he's busy with my awesome Animal Mafia game. His reads are substantiated with solid reasoning, which is pretty good, and he's also driving discussion by asking relevant questions which can imaginably help him get a better read on certain players. His readslist is also one of the better ones I've seen so far, given the time constraints. He needs more posts before I can put him as lock-town, because I haven't seen the extent of his scumgame or what he's capable of, but this is one of the slots that would most likely to enter top-tier town. Again, because of his dedication to my game, I'm absolutely fine with everything he's done here.

Probably Scum - My top picks for scum, higher chance than random to hit scum here

Josh: I've already had a very strong opinion on this slot, and he deserves a separate post by himself. Elaborating on my read on him here in such detail would double or triple the length AND time needed to complete this post, so I'll postpone this for later. I'd made enough comments on this slot such that my stance has been quite clear, anyways. In brief: Look at his posts, then look at why he fails to meet the criteria to enter town. Compare him and Empoof. He says he has been engaging with me, but he hasn't; it's a huge lie. It's laughable. Anyway, too many words already. I can't stop if I keep this going on.

Yeti: Cute posting style, and I thoroughly enjoyed the blobs, but my townread on her has expired. Her defense of Walrein (See below) seem iffy and overstretching at best; giving special treatment to someone who are coincidentally on this list and not applying it to the other idlers like Da Letter El, or Former Hope. There is a similar soft defense being done for Josh, which has appears to been a prevalent theme throughout the whole game, even duringthe blobs. I've expressed concerns that Yeti has already been oversensitive to even the slightest scumreads or voteson her. However, Yeti is currently voting Walrein which is throwing me for a loop here. It's possible that I'm wrong on one of these two.

Walrein: This guy would be in the bottom section, but there's one post I particularly dislike:


He's pushing for a mislynch-target slot to be lynched on the basis that there is minimal resistance on the wagon, however, the fact is that the opposite is true: It's much more difficult to push a correct lynch onto scum for the sole reason that their partners would come to their defense; meanwhile mislynch bait who are town are easily deleted.

Although most people have expressed a desire to lynch Walrein for the basis that he has not been posting, it is definitely not true: his ISO has more posts than even LightWolf and Prophylaxis. However, the issue here is that there is quantity, but not quality in his posts; all of them have been sounmemorable that they have been immediately forgotten by most people. Maybe he has real-life commitments (game days on Smogon are quite fast; it's only been 3 days), and it's been the weekend, which may explain his non-activity (also for everyone in the below section), so actually he's only in this "scumreading" section for that one scummy post that I've caught.

PS: I wrote the Walrein read first but shifted it down to after Yeti for formatting reasons

Non-posters - Lackluster slots as of Day 1, don't think they're scum, but wouldn't mind hammering

Former Hope: Townlean. Understandably busy as well due to my awesome Animal Mafia. His readslist was pretty good, with mostly clear stances towards most of the game's players, as well as substantiated reasoning for of them, given the time constraints. His frustration with regard to his posts not being read seem genuine, and also some evidence of scumhunting performed, which is seriously honestly more than I can say for some slots in this game :psynervous:. Hopefully we can get a consensus read on him later in the game, when he's more available.

KnightsOfCydonia: Our resident thread Shakespeare. Always speaking in rhetoric makes it challenging for me to actually get a read on him. Probably my fault. He does give some reads, but they're few and far between. He makes a lot of off-topic comments that fail to progress the gamestate and only serves to dilute his ISO with confusing fluff, making it even more difficult to even find evidence to townread him. He has A LOT of posts, but extremely high quantity with low quality. If he's town I'd like to see him consolidate and centralize his posts so that they bring about a laser-point focus rather than ash-ray diffusion scattering which dissolves into wisp-like motes. Scumlean.

Thetwinmasters/MoodyCloud: Thetwinmasters has been absolutely awful in JOAT mafia and Animal mafia and I have no idea why he got invited to this game. Even Haruno is more likeable because he is funny and has a cute avatar. I think this slot is full-on null, but wouldn't mind them gone. Hopefully MoodyCloud makes this easier to read. CAVEAT: IF THIS SLOT IS TOWN, THE BANDWAGONERS ON THE EARLY TTM WAGON MUST BE THOROUGHLY EXAMINED - Wagonomics.

Da Letter El: My man, what on earth are you doing? I know you're awesome, but if you're going to AFK I swear nobody will miss you when you're gone. Just because you want to learn to post awesome like the GOAT doesn't mean you also have to copy... this!
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Advertisement cos this gettin buried
 
Please allow me some time to answer all these.

LightWolf I refute it by saying I'm not the most painful lynch here, but ideally I would have had time to get my scumhunting in gear and then offered myself up for a sacc play or a safe lynch before LyLo.
 
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bards-college-mafia-day-three.3621533/

game thread for super lazy people, you can iso from there by searching posts from knights in that thread

skimming through knights' iso in that game he definitely feels a lot more active and like he's trying to solve the game/push it forward there, rather than just shitposting in fancyspeech

like, does knights have any posts as good as:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bards-college-mafia-day-three.3621533/page-11#post-7595037
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bards-college-mafia-day-three.3621533/page-11#post-7595008
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bards-college-mafia-day-three.3621533/page-6#post-7592282
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bards-college-mafia-day-three.3621533/page-4#post-7591226
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bards-college-mafia-day-three.3621533/page-3#post-7591157
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bards-college-mafia-day-three.3621533/page-3#post-7591178

itg?
 
Da Letter El said:
Windows
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Yeah no Windows was ages ahead of knights here. I reread my read of him the day he got lynched, and his day 1 was most definetly read by me in a far more positive light. I mean I dunno what people exactly had against him, and won't go back to check, but point is if I didn't get fooled there and am here by his general town play, then A it changed enough to not be good enough evidence or B the context of the game is different enough to lead me to another path, ergo still no evidence it's directly tied to his playstyle.
 
Blair threw easel words at me and then Norris picked it up and ran with it and I couldn't say that I was getting tilted becuase it was my birthday because that's AtE.


Now can I get a moment to respond to everyone? I'm a little overwhelmed.
 
Josh said:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=72052 - Relevant for this game. I argue against the d1 mislynch, I take control of the game and break it mechanically. Attract the scum kill multiple times. No other mislynches.
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Who are you actually in this game? Took a look at it and you aren't showing up on the playerlist

Josh said:
These are games of me doing well. There are games I do poorly in too obviously though recently I've been on the ball. I am complimented all the time on my scum game, much more so than my town game. However, I enjoy playing town much more. I don't think I'm a GoD of mafia, but I consider myself a great player. No, I don't think I can be sorted on meta. The thing is, I hope you understand what I mean by this, but I don't know of any tells I have and I don't think I have any flaws as a scum player. Obviously that isn't true and they exist but if I'm made aware of them I work hard to fix them. If you are aware of any weaknesses you have as a player and don't correct them, you aren't going to improve. People try to read me, but realistically I don't think I have any meta tells.

That said, that doesn't mean I can't be sorted. Most good players don't have any semi obvious meta tells and there's quite a few that have none or almost none. How I'd suggest to do it is look at my agenda / motivations / etc. The goodies. My scum game is made to look as pro town as possible. If my buddies are acting scummy, I'll push them. If they're acting townie, I'm not going to go out of my way to distance. I'm obviously biased, but I try my best to be honest. I AtE as scum and town. I self meta as scum and town. I do everything as scum and town because if you don't you screw over one of your games. In about 20 town games I was mislynched twice - once was Merlin on here when I was going for the W and once was in Penguin mafia on MS where in the process of lynching me it took 3 scum plus the worst townie you will ever see (vote - unvote fine you can post - wtf that was hammer?) and I caught the scum team and it ended in a 3 in a row scum lynch lylo win for town sheeping me. I've been lynched twice as scum, guiltied both times. The drawbacks in my play are that I'm too cocky and rub people the wrong way, and my reads are only a little above rand as opposed to amazing. I'm good at knowing when my reads are off though and that's where I shine - knowing when who and how to sheep while still advancing the game.

OF course, this is all just imo and others have vastly different opinions of me. I know some players who think I'm dog shit. Lots think I'm mediocre. You asked how to sort me, and this is what I think. Honestly, if you're a cop you should cop me. I think I'm pretty blatantly town here, but paranoia etc shrug. You can honestly BoP me - if I'm strongarming lynches and/or advocating wrong things and we are hitting town over and over I'm probably scum. If we are doing good, I'm probably town.
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OK, first off, thank you for this. I know that people love talking about themselves which is why I asked you those specific questions and you delivered pretty well on that front.

It seems like your scum game is reasonably similar to my own I feel? Where you bus your buddies if they're doing poorly/distance from them in a competent manner in order to get yourself townread, and just Play Well as either alignment ("play well" from strictly a theory standpoint - I know enough about mafia to not deliver an embarrassing scum game, but my scum game is just.. not good). I'll try my best to track your agendas and motivations as the game goes on to see if you're advancing a scum agenda or not, and.. I'll try to trust you regarding the BoP thing. Honestly, I just want to ignore your slot for a little bit, focus on other people, and if we miss a few times in a row we can sit down on Day 4 and have a serious talk about your alignment because that's how I handle most good scum players these days, but that might be actually untenable so we'll see.

Either way, thanks for this post, if this game ends up going long and we seriously need to figure out your alignment I will refer back to it, but for now I think I'm going to push you off to the side for a little bit, slot you in as "leaning town" and focus a little more on who I actually want to lynch because I don't think it's going to be you.

Have you ever done what you've done in this game (Fruit Vendor plan D1) as scum, out of curiosity? Or do you just focus on playing a decently good/active game as scum D1?
 
I don't get much from the Josh/MS fight other than I think that MS is pretty town.

inb4 this is all elaborate scum theater and we're about to get snowed under by stellar scum performances by those two
 
Prophylaxis said:
Who are you actually in this game? Took a look at it and you aren't showing up on the playerlist
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Mutton Chop Magic. It's my rhyming alt.

Prophylaxis said:
Either way, thanks for this post, if this game ends up going long and we seriously need to figure out your alignment I will refer back to it, but for now I think I'm going to push you off to the side for a little bit, slot you in as "leaning town" and focus a little more on who I actually want to lynch because I don't think it's going to be you.
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Good choice.

Prophylaxis said:
Have you ever done what you've done in this game (Fruit Vendor plan D1) as scum, out of curiosity? Or do you just focus on playing a decently good/active game as scum D1?
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Not that I recall. I think I am capable of it, but I haven't.
 
Da Letter El said:
Guess I'll just pop in to the last 5 pages and see what's up

Pretty much have only read what was going on while I was live posting, which got up to idk page 16? And my only coherent reads were a hard TR on Proph and a lighter town read on Josh for their claims, and I was starting to come around to townread MS off being stubborn town.
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how'd you come to an obv town read on me on page 16, when I literally just posted "yooo I'm a town ascetic" then left

Also can you answer my questions about your reads list from earlier? Metal Sonic quoted it in his big reads post if you need to find it.

Thanks! Sorry to add more work on your plate if you're in the midst of catching up :/
 
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