There's an offensive bias because pokémon kills pokémon with move since the Stone Age and it's easier to do than Roost-SR-Taunt-Toxic-switch-ZzzZzzz. Not better, but easier and faster.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Other "The Offensive Bias."
- Thread starter November Blue
- Start date
- Status
I know that Talon is good and probably OU worthy, but many people on the ladder think its the end all be all pokemon.
The reason people are using a more Offensive teams is, one, it's easier to go out and try to kill everything in your path then go a more defensive route with Statuses and Hazards, and given that people have the tools to go extremely offensive like MKangaskhan and Genesect, it's gonna tip the scale in Offensive's favor, second, the meta is still young, and a lack of bans on stuff like Genesect and the like make it hard when Ubers have come down to make OU their territory. As the Meta advances, and stuff that deserves to be hit gets hit, it'll start to balance out, as it generally takes more experience to build a good defensive team and win with it, so early in a Generations life Offense is often seen because it's what's easier to build and put into practice, but I wouldn't say either are better then one another so long as both are built well.
Besides the obvious threats, many good offensive mons are easily countered. Talonflame hates SR and is countered by Rock types or Rotom-W. Greninja is frail and susceptible to priority. Aegislash is a bit more iffy, but a lack of recovery means that it will get worn down. Even Mega Pinsir has its weaknesses, being SR and a weakness to a crap ton of common offensive types.
Once the obvious broken mons are gone, the metagame should look a lot more diverse.
Once the obvious broken mons are gone, the metagame should look a lot more diverse.
Mega Banette is outclassed by Sableye.
As many others have stated, it's a HO metagame right now because bans still need to be made for other teams to emerge.
I have been doing well tho with a team that supports and syringes with my 2-3 HO pokemon.
Imagine how HO the Wi-fi metagame is tho.
As many others have stated, it's a HO metagame right now because bans still need to be made for other teams to emerge.
I have been doing well tho with a team that supports and syringes with my 2-3 HO pokemon.
Imagine how HO the Wi-fi metagame is tho.
I was a bit scrubby with my wording and I don't mean to berate or belittle the people who are on the top since they -are- on the top for the reason. For that I apologize.
However I think Ajwf explained my point much better. I feel that if I ever got into simulation battling I'd never want to reach that particular top echelon ladder that's literally just full of OP pokemon until the metagame balanced itself out. :x
Anywho, while I definatley feel there's a bias, I kinda view it more as a "ugh could u not" more than "ew this ruins the game"
I went in with a Dunsparce joke team cause i haven't bred my planned team yet (i won't actually finish until pokebank) and i was stunned about how all three teams i faced were so HO i have to use a text diagram to show it
The scale of playstyle:
Stall------------Semi-Stall-------------Balance------------BO-----------HO-------------Wi-Fi HO
Stally Right wing <<<<<<<<<<<<<<|>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Offensive left wing
Showdown metagame
Stall (RIP) ------------------------------------------------------------------"XY Stall"---Semi-Stall--Balance-BO-HO
Stally Right wing <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<|>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Offensive left win
I also expect, that a lot of things that are making stall difficult, M-Lucario, Genesect, and suchlike, will at least be suspected (M-Khan will be banned any day now). The power creep is very noticeable though, and because of the new mechanic changes like Defog, the definition of stall might well change. The Stall-thread mentions an "offensive stall" playstyle which recalls more of an anti-metagame style that tanks everything.
Speaking of wi-fi, anyone remember thatpandaemonium of a flamewar thread about Lv.50 on Showdown, where people were talking about the HO power creep that comes with it? Looking back at it, it's funny that it would seem to have happened either way.
Speaking of wi-fi, anyone remember that
Well no shit that good offensive mons have counters. Pretty much everything has some counter or really good check if you try to theorymon enough. However, pokemon is a game of SIX, and even if you can counter one, extenuating circumstances such as support or momentum can make defensively countering a combination of threats extremely hard, if not outright impossible.
Honestly, I'm gonna be blunt. It's way too early in the generation to start making stall teams. That'd be like making one during the Swift Swim meta before Aldaron's Proposal came out. I've seen one statement repeated throughout these forums and I'm going to echo it because I find it to be very true: "Stall teams thrive much more when metagames settle down". Wait for the bans on Kangaskhanite, Lucarionite, and Genesect (possibly?) before attempting to create the ultimate bulwark of a team. In the meantime, try experimenting with as many of both offensive and defensive pokemon alike. Anybody who limits their selection of Pokemon based on tiering/usage is only limiting themselves.
Don't worry, there will be variety in teams soon enough. People are still "learning" this generation.
Just like when an experienced fighting game player comes to a new scene (For example, Street Fighter 4 to Marvel 3) they usually don't pick up the most complex character at first (no matter how good that said character is). They take time to learn the mechanics of the game, learn common match-ups,and learn to read the opponent in this new environment. Same with the players in X and Y, People will try new things once they become comfortable with their "first" team.
Just like when an experienced fighting game player comes to a new scene (For example, Street Fighter 4 to Marvel 3) they usually don't pick up the most complex character at first (no matter how good that said character is). They take time to learn the mechanics of the game, learn common match-ups,and learn to read the opponent in this new environment. Same with the players in X and Y, People will try new things once they become comfortable with their "first" team.
Probably unrelated, but those who say that Sableye outclasses Mega Banette probably don't know about how beautiful Prankster Destiny bond is.
I think Knock Off will play a part in this so-called "offensive bias" when players learn to make use of it.
Eviolite mons getting their Eviolite knocked off off them means death sentence. Gliscor/Poison Heal Breloom getting its Toxic Orb knocked out is the same. Assault Vest users getting their Ass. Vest knocked off immediately reduces their defensive potential.
Although the same can be said for Offensive teams, Offensive teams generally make better use of Knock Off since it inherently is an attacking move.
Eviolite mons getting their Eviolite knocked off off them means death sentence. Gliscor/Poison Heal Breloom getting its Toxic Orb knocked out is the same. Assault Vest users getting their Ass. Vest knocked off immediately reduces their defensive potential.
Although the same can be said for Offensive teams, Offensive teams generally make better use of Knock Off since it inherently is an attacking move.
Ehhhh, this is probably the biggest trap the stall player actually needs to avoid if anything. You might get by your run-of-the-mill player by "not taking risks" and playing on autopilot. But, that's the quickest way to die against a skilled offensive player, who knows the matchups, what things need to be KO'd for their sweeper(s) to sweep and what possible predictions need to be made.
Regarding the topic, anything I say would just be a repeat of what other people have said. Although I also think the OP should go play more games because I've seen all those Pokémon at least once and I haven't even played that many games. People do care way too much about W-L ratio though. It's a
I don't mean you play on autopilot, but your goal is to get safe switches and take as little damage as possible. But we're saying the same thing as far as offense: your predictions matter a whole lot more. With a stall team you shouldn't have to make as many high risk predictions because your goal is to drag out the game, and the longer it goes on the more it is in your favor.
As much as I want to agree with this, nothing good can come from Karenism cropping up on Smogon.
I dunno, a mix of the two would lead to using Pokemon that are viable but not top tier and making a team around them that works wonders.
I mean, if you're running safe switch on stall, you literally give away the win every time because everyone knows what the safe switch is. I personally judge how long I can make a safe switch and then throw wrenches in my patterns. Sure, you can auto-pilot, but that doesn't get a stall player to be anything better then average. Prediction is everything in stall, and to play at the utmost high tier of stall (which this gen probably isn't quite that high yet), you need to be predicting and evaluating risk/reward on every move. It is difficult to do right every turn, hence the belief in just safe-playing games.
I've made teams with stuff like Ledian before, and they work against dumb ladderers. Also lower tiers are the places to be marveling at stuff like Moltres and stuff. Or Smogon ASB.
Also @OP: I've seen countless Gourgeist and about 30 Mandibuzz (those Mandibuzz were in the past couple weeks). Slowbro is good but no one is using it because the hype is still strong. Mega Banette and Mega Alakazam aren't seen because they suck.
The reason people use this much Greninja or Aegislash is because of hype, partially. Once everything settles down you'll find that Greninja is good but not dominating, there are lots of ways around Aegislash, Talonflame is easy to counter, and Mega Kangaskhan will be Uber soon anyways.
Also Megas like Lucario, Pinsir, Absol, etc. ruin defensive teams.
And Mega Banette just dies to Mega Kangaskhan's Crunch, so in what way is it a better check than Sableye, other than maybe being better at Destiny Bond?
Just because I got curious, I decided to bring up the calculator to see how the two Megas with arguably the most killing power atm, fair against Mega Aggron, which is one of the (arguably) best Physical Walls in the game.
Jolly +2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. Brave 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Aggron: 360-426 (104.6 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Good lord. Mega Aggron has a 230 Defense Stat, in this scenario, a Defense helping nature and full HP/Def Ev's and Filter, and it still get's OHKO'ed. Now for Mega Kanga, who can easily get to +2 via PuP:
Jolly +2 252 Atk Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. Brave 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Aggron: 180-212 (52.3 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While not as devastating as Mega Lucario, that's still some really nice damage for MKang given how much of a Defensive behemoth MAggron is, and thus MAggron can't switch in safely, so, what I'm getting at is, if MAggron cant take these two on, with such colossal Defenses, it's gonna be hard for Stall to survive, hence the favor for Offense, and Mega Aggron is royally screwed if it runs into a Special Oriented Mega Lucario.
Edit: I derped and forgot to add the abilities to the calculator here's the correct ones:
+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Filter Mega Aggron: 202-238 (58.7 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Filter Mega Aggron: 360-426
(104.6 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Still very impressive damage even after Filter was added.
Jolly +2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. Brave 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Aggron: 360-426 (104.6 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Good lord. Mega Aggron has a 230 Defense Stat, in this scenario, a Defense helping nature and full HP/Def Ev's and Filter, and it still get's OHKO'ed. Now for Mega Kanga, who can easily get to +2 via PuP:
Jolly +2 252 Atk Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. Brave 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Aggron: 180-212 (52.3 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While not as devastating as Mega Lucario, that's still some really nice damage for MKang given how much of a Defensive behemoth MAggron is, and thus MAggron can't switch in safely, so, what I'm getting at is, if MAggron cant take these two on, with such colossal Defenses, it's gonna be hard for Stall to survive, hence the favor for Offense, and Mega Aggron is royally screwed if it runs into a Special Oriented Mega Lucario.
Edit: I derped and forgot to add the abilities to the calculator here's the correct ones:
+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Filter Mega Aggron: 202-238 (58.7 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Filter Mega Aggron: 360-426
(104.6 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Still very impressive damage even after Filter was added.
Last edited:
Well more or less it was there to show how much damage the two can do to something with 230 Defenses and Filter. Again, give it time, More defensive teams will arise as stuff is removed.
Personally, I think the lack of new defensive/supportive talents is due to the high usage of offensive threats capable of supporting a team. Gengar ,for example, was accused to be to good for OU under a Support Characteristic but, it was still obvious that even if he took out the counters of your sweeper he can still be able to hammer your team with his naturally large Special Attack or sacrifice itself with Destiny Bond. Other examples are Rotom-H and W, who can absorb status, spread status and maintain momentum with Volt Switch. Landorus-T and Gyarados can come in and decrease a Physical Sweeper's attack stat with Intimidate. Likewise, Tyranitar can come in with sandstorm and raise a Pokemon's Special Defense , aid with Pursuit trapping and set-up Stealth Rocks. The Introduction of Assault Vest gives dedicated Special walls some competition for a slot on a team.
Sadly, I think dedicated walls and supports are going to have a hard to finding themselves a slot for a team.
Sadly, I think dedicated walls and supports are going to have a hard to finding themselves a slot for a team.
- Status