Other The Old Stall and the New

[Clair]

Chou basically said everything I've been saying, but much more clearly lol :)

 

[Ajwf]

Would you consider Assault Vest Regenerator Pokemon to be "walls" or "tanks". Regenerator can be seen as a means of reliable recovery, although no one would reasonably consider Assault Vest Tornadus-T to be a "wall".

I've always considered them tanks (Though I think with AV torn-t, I just call it a support mon since it doesn't take a variety of hits). Slowbro has good recovery, but it cannot stall by itself as regenerator requires reliance on other pokemon to be able to switch in so you can gain health back. You're also at four attacks, so it is very easy to call it an attacking tank even with all of that bulk. But case and point is slowbro needs a lot of help to stall (generally just switches) and cannot just sit in and wall pokes.

I think the defining difference between "Stall" and "Semi-Stall" is that the later has the specific intention to set up an offensive win condition to finish the game.

Stall wins battles by defensive design-- by always having a good switch-in and answer to anything the opponent can throw at you; this can mean hazards as a win condition, but it doesn't have to. As long as your main means of winning sits mostly on countering everything, you're a stall team. This could be hazards, but it doesn't have to be-- so long as your intention is to win through a drawn out battle allowed by a well built defensive core.

Semi-stall uses a stall-like defensive core to set up an offensive-based win condition. This difference in intent is the decisive difference between the two.

ajwf-- you quoted jibaku in saying that the definition between "bulky offense", "stall," and "balanced" is blurred, but his same post also states that a semi-stall team is not a stall team at all.

This is the truth, the heart of the matter. Because a semi-stall team is more similar to a hazard-setting offensive team than to a true stall team in its nature-- the only difference is you're not using Custap Skarm to do all the dirty work, but using a defensive core of Lefties Spiking Skarm, Spin-blocking Jellicent, and Double Screens Latias to do it instead. Either way, you're building a team meant to set up for a sweep to win the game.


I'd say that if a team's main intention is to set up an offensive win condition, it's semi-stall.

If the defensive core of the team is the main focus with wins made through good countering, even if there are 1 or 2 offensive Pokemon just tacked on for utility/back-up plan/whatever, it's a stall team.

Is the Sand Rush Stoutland the win condition? Or is it just a nice back-up plan/revenge killer for pokes weakened through the endurance battle?

There in-lies the defining difference. It does come down to the builder's intention.

Now, I was always told that semi-stall had a specific build. I was looking for a thread about the specifics and requirements that made it different but couldn't find anything better than that. My own definition of semi-stall was close to balance: 3 offensive pokemon and a defensive core. If I remember correctly, the core was supposed to set up to provide synergy with the sweepers to draw attacks they could take and switch into (Or even force out threats), providing little cost for the offensive pokes. This was something I was told a few years ago when I started picking up stall as a side interest. I haven't seen a thread on it, ever.

The issue is, some teams would be able to argue multiple win conditions. If you're running heatran and terrakion, your wincon could be just to eliminate everything with EQ and see what works better: Toxic stalling or going for a terrakion sweep. Does a team style then change game to game, where terrakion is sometimes a wall breaker, sometimes an SD sweeper? I'm in personal agreement that semi-stall really is just a style for anything not directly categorized as bulky offense, balanced or some more offensive based stall. It almost feels as if smogon never addresses it, as there is so very little to read on it and absolutely no consensus on what it truly is.

 

[Clair]

While it is possible to create teams with multiple different win conditions (the example you gave would be classed as balance), semistall doesn't fit into that. Semistall basically is a pure stall team, with typically just one offensive Pokemon which abuses the accumulating residual damage to sweep or wallbreak in the mid- or late-game. Think of it as a stall team that sacrifices an extra wall or support mon in favour of being able to end a game more quickly.

 

[SkiGloves]

I personally play "Neo" stall. I prefer to avoid focusing on one method of attrition and instead run sand, burn, toxic, stealth rocks and leech seed (seeds are my personal favourite) all on the same team. I often miss not having spikes against slower teams, against faster ones I'd much rather the moveslot spent on Powerwhip and since people tend towards forfeiting turn 3...

I don't even bother to run a spin blocker, it's too much effort to worry about blocking rapid spin when your opponent could just run a defogger anyway. It's not even that defog sees that much use, but that it can see use (and if it begins to see more, I'm work Bisharp into my team) that makes spin blockers and fast taunters not worth it. I'm still perfectly willing to run spikes on a team, but with Ferrothorn as my rocks setter and only possible spiker, I just don't have the moveslots to deploy them. Defog and Rapid spin don't hurt too much for spikes either, a turn spent removing hazards is a free turn I bought for free when I got the opportunity to set them up and I got some damage out of the deal.

Toxic spikes however are completely not worth using. You spend two turns for your spikes to be at an acceptable stall breaking level and your opponent just switches in a poison type (which is probably something they'd do anyway). Until they get the opportunity to absorb the spikes, they simply stick with Natural cure mons, Lum trevenant, steel types and aerial pokémon, which can be a significant portion of the team. They also prevent you from burning things mune to them. Sure, I've had a game where I had free turns with Tentacruel and set up, but the spikes never really do much since the toxic also needs more turns to build up.
That's not because of Defog, that's because Mega Lucario, Genesect, Aegislash, Rotom, Talonflame and thing teams have 5 pokémon minimum immune to them.

That all being said, never neglect the power of directly attacking a frail enemy. A physical wall spends all their EV investment on not dying, a physical attacker can only invest half their EVs on killing.

While it is possible to create teams with multiple different win conditions (the example you gave would be classed as balance), semistall doesn't fit into that. Semistall basically is a pure stall team, with typically just one offensive Pokemon which abuses the accumulating residual damage to sweep or wallbreak in the mid- or late-game. Think of it as a stall team that sacrifices an extra wall or support mon in favour of being able to end a game more quickly.

That's semi-stall? My God I need to up my game. I thought stall could get away with one potential sweeper.

 

[Tangelo]

First I'll say that tacking a title on a team really do anything. It's either offensive (trying not to get countered) or defensive (doing the countering) in nature. Any deeper and it is completely subjective. So I'll say stall is defensive in nature.

A stall teams goal isn't to just have 6 walls and call it to day. It's to attempt to beat every relevant threat in the metagame at a given time. If that means running 1-2 offensive pokes, so be it.

LoDart210
I've been meaning to test Weezing for a while now. It's kind of like a physically defensive Rotom-W with different typing.

 

[Ajwf]

Saw someone in SPL running weezing to pretty good effect (actually did work). I'm not sure how much bending a team you'd have to do to fit weezing, but a ground/fairy resist could be helpful.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

Saw someone in SPL running weezing to pretty good effect (actually did work). I'm not sure how much bending a team you'd have to do to fit weezing, but a ground/fairy resist could be helpful.

Well, its nearest analogue, to me, sigh, is Rotom-W, although Weezing has higher physical defense. Of course, Rotom-W has Pain Split and Will-O-Wisp, a fear of Mold Breaker Excadrill, but of course, the washing machine better offensive moves.

Are there any advantages to Weezing? I suppose it is valuable if one wants a fighting resist, but the glib answer is Mega Venusaur, who doesn't fear Excadrill.

===

Regarding tanks, there is indeed something that makes AV Slowbro more of a "stall" Pokemon than an obvious tank such as AV Conkeldurr. An obvious distinction is access to Regenerator, but Conkeldurr is more of an offensive solution for offensive teams (which do not usually pack a cleric) to deal with Rotom-W (and other threats to a lesser extent other powerful offensive threats and to retaliate in kind). Conkeldurr has decent defensive typing (only a weakness to Flying, Psychic, and Fairy) and does not need that much support, while Slowbro has more exploitable weaknesses and needs team support and synergy to use its typing as an advantage,

 

[Chou Toshio]

I've always considered them tanks (Though I think with AV torn-t, I just call it a support mon since it doesn't take a variety of hits). Slowbro has good recovery, but it cannot stall by itself as regenerator requires reliance on other pokemon to be able to switch in so you can gain health back. You're also at four attacks, so it is very easy to call it an attacking tank even with all of that bulk. But case and point is slowbro needs a lot of help to stall (generally just switches) and cannot just sit in and wall pokes.



Now, I was always told that semi-stall had a specific build. I was looking for a thread about the specifics and requirements that made it different but couldn't find anything better than that. My own definition of semi-stall was close to balance: 3 offensive pokemon and a defensive core. If I remember correctly, the core was supposed to set up to provide synergy with the sweepers to draw attacks they could take and switch into (Or even force out threats), providing little cost for the offensive pokes. This was something I was told a few years ago when I started picking up stall as a side interest. I haven't seen a thread on it, ever.

The issue is, some teams would be able to argue multiple win conditions. If you're running heatran and terrakion, your wincon could be just to eliminate everything with EQ and see what works better: Toxic stalling or going for a terrakion sweep. Does a team style then change game to game, where terrakion is sometimes a wall breaker, sometimes an SD sweeper? I'm in personal agreement that semi-stall really is just a style for anything not directly categorized as bulky offense, balanced or some more offensive based stall. It almost feels as if smogon never addresses it, as there is so very little to read on it and absolutely no consensus on what it truly is.

I don't think a specific build is required to be semi-stall (or anything really... teams are too flexible for that...). Originally semi-stall was just what we called teams in DPP that combined something like SkarmBliss + Rotom-A (spin blocker) with setup sweepers that could abuse the hazard support.

Remember what I said is that I think the definition rests on where the intention lies in team building.

If the intention was more flexible (multiple win conditions designed), than the definition is also flexible. We have these labels and team types meant to capture various concepts, but a team can exist that doesn't fit strictly into any of them.

Generally speaking though, if the offensive Pokemon aren't strictly thought of as the main win condition (the team wants to SWEEP), it's probably better to think of it as a stall team.

 

[Meru]

I'm feeling somewhat obligated to chime in because my team has been thrown all over the place...

First off, HP Fire was definitely not a lure. I used that team for far too long to be relying on something as gimmicky as a lure to pilot through various suspect testing rounds. Good stall teams don't use lures. HP Fire was used to make sure Scizor didn't stifle their utility, as well as preventing those Pokemon from being set-up fodder against Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and most importantly, Forretress, as having to switch while they spike against me mid-game, or even worse, spin against me mid-game, would cause way too much momentum to be lost.

Second, I've thought about this before and I've actually had a hard time deciding what style my team actually is. Semi-stall does make more sense, but a decent amount of games can fall back on the defensive core to win the game. Using the offensive duo just sped up the process lol. I also don't know if I would consider CM Latias an offensive win condition, as she pulled a lot of mid-to-late-game walling in my battles. And then there's the whole thing about Stoutland being used as a sweeper, but also as a cold hard revenge killer. Are revenge killers not allowed? Or do you guys make a sole exception just for revenge killers? Because if they're not allowed, then is Kevin Garrett Stall not considered Stall? I feel like revenge killers are far too important, as otherwise how are you going to punish an opponent that killed your wall? Especially if that wall was the counter for that sweeper. Offensive support is needed on Stall these days, since this metagame is so damn offensive and BULKY. And I'm inclined to say that it might even be needed on at least two of your six Pokemon. Just my two cents.