Other The Old Stall and the New

[asterat]

Stall doesn't exist until genesect is banned

 

[Tressed]

Stall doesn't exist until genesect is banned

Given the 26 page long thread about how to build and play stall teams, I'd say it is.

 

[effyouzion]

Stall doesn't exist until genesect is banned

Basically every stall team has Heatran, who walls Genesect to death. He's not a threat at all to stall.

Kyu-B and the million other random threats that aren't great against standard teams but are all but impossible to prepare for with only 6 slots are what's hard for stall to deal with.

 

[Red Cat]

Being forced to use Heatran to counter Genesect really limits a stall team's ability to check many other threats. The main problem with Genesect and Mega Lucario for stall is not trying to counter them, but that they allow for very little creativity in building a stall team because you have to use specialized counters to beat them.

 

[BackStreetTabby]

I'll just talk about some threats that NEED to be covered to make a successful stall teams. Keep in mind these elements threaten traditional BW stall teams, so circumstances may be different in the current XY metagame.

THREATS TO TRADITIONAL STALL TEAMS


Incredibly Powerful Attacks. Wallbreakers and Mega Sweepers such as Pinsir, Talonflame and Lucario pose huge threats to defensive teams.

Wide High-Powered Coverage. Greninja, for example, has a STAB boost on all of its attacks. Combine that with a large variety of attacks and the nerf to Steel, and you’ll be hard-pressed to find a complete counter.

Double/Triple Set-Up Moves. Rather than sweeper-styled boosting moves such as Dragon Dance, Priority and +2/+3 setup moves gives sweepers the potential to destroy any wall in just one turn.

Offensive Momentum. As of the ubiquity of fast, strong sweepers, stall teams rarely find time to recover with Wish/Reliable Recovery moves. Past pokemon that could turn attackers into Wish-Bait, such as Blissey, are rather ineffective in the physically-based metagame.

Set-Up Bait. Since most passive traditional stall teams rely on Entry Hazards and Status to damage opponents, sweepers have easy times to set up without being KO’ed.

Nerf to Entry Hazards. Defog is currently unblockable, and gives offensive teams a way to remove hazards that cannot be stopped by traditional stall teams.

Number of Threats. With each generation, more threats need to be covered, which in theory, will naturally give the advantage to offensive teams over time.



Discuss.

 

[SansNickel]

I'll just talk about some threats that NEED to be covered to make a successful stall teams. Keep in mind these elements threaten traditional BW stall teams, so circumstances may be different in the current XY metagame.

THREATS TO TRADITIONAL STALL TEAMS


Incredibly Powerful Attacks. Wallbreakers and Mega Sweepers such as Pinsir, Talonflame and Lucario pose huge threats to defensive teams.

Wide High-Powered Coverage. Greninja, for example, has a STAB boost on all of its attacks. Combine that with a large variety of attacks and the nerf to Steel, and you’ll be hard-pressed to find a complete counter.

Double/Triple Set-Up Moves. Rather than sweeper-styled boosting moves such as Dragon Dance, Priority and +2/+3 setup moves gives sweepers the potential to destroy any wall in just one turn.

Offensive Momentum. As of the ubiquity of fast, strong sweepers, stall teams rarely find time to recover with Wish/Reliable Recovery moves. Past pokemon that could turn attackers into Wish-Bait, such as Blissey, are rather ineffective in the physically-based metagame.

Set-Up Bait. Since most passive traditional stall teams rely on Entry Hazards and Status to damage opponents, sweepers have easy times to set up without being KO’ed.

Nerf to Entry Hazards. Defog is currently unblockable, and gives offensive teams a way to remove hazards that cannot be stopped by traditional stall teams.

Number of Threats. With each generation, more threats need to be covered, which in theory, will naturally give the advantage to offensive teams over time.

Discuss.

Incredibly Powerful Attacks. Still true, always will be true.

Wide High-Powered Coverage.

Yep. Or really just Kyurem-B. Freaking unreal electric/ice/ground coverage with teravolt hits everything. Not to mention it's mixed, here's a list of all your stall cores or pokemon that get shredded: SkarmBliss (fusion bolt), Gliscor (ice beam), AmoongBroTran (ice beam/fusion bolt/earth power), celebi (ice beam), jellicent (fusion bolt), latias (ice beam), togekiss (ice beam), hippowdon (ice beam). The only thing neutral to those things commonly seen on stall teams is mega venusaur, who has trouble doing anything back as Kyurem-B is often behind a sub, and ferrothorn, who can only hit back if it has gyro ball, and still doesn't like ice beam damage, although it can set up spikes (but again, spikes usage is going down). Same with for deoxys-D.

Double/Triple Set-Up Moves. Rather than sweeper-styled boosting moves such as Dragon Dance, Priority and +2/+3 setup moves gives sweepers the potential to destroy any wall in just one turn.

Sub + Set up has always been a nightmare for stall, especially when they hit your phazer super effectively (or it's already gone).

Offensive Momentum.

I love stall and have almost never used wish. It's impossible to use except against other more balanced teams.

Set-Up Bait.

Nerf to Entry Hazards.

It's all about status now, yeah.

Number of Threats.

Exactly. An offensive pokemon typically runs 2-4 attacking moves, but each pokemon only gets one defensive typing (except the gimmicky reflect type latios which is actually hilariously funny).

 

[asterat]

Basically every stall team has Heatran, who walls Genesect to death. He's not a threat at all to stall.

Kyu-B and the million other random threats that aren't great against standard teams but are all but impossible to prepare for with only 6 slots are what's hard for stall to deal with.

So every offense team gets a free switch in to pokemon of their choice giving offense player massive advantage. Every time genesect switches in.

 

[effyouzion]

So every offense team gets a free switch in to pokemon of their choice giving offense player massive advantage. Every time genesect switches in.

U-turn isn't a free switch. You're taking hazard damage, plus you have to find a way to get Genesect in safely in the first place.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Stall doesn't exist until genesect is banned

Not really tbh, MANY MANY stall teams this gen are VERY successful, why? because of heatran, rotom H, mega venu and (for non iron head variants: sylveon and kyurem-b) all are amazing stall pokes and happen to handle it handle it /very/ well. Not to mention mega venusaur literally topples the viability rankings as a representative of stall, while also checking gene batshit hard. Overall stall is great this gen, you just have to utilize the tools it gives you

 

[Tangelo]

DEFOG
I think people are just looking at defog and going, "well, guess we can't run hazards anymore". You can't ignore the fact that defog is a move that gets rid of all momentum someone had. Using it is basically telling your opp to take advantage (since now they have also lost whatever hazards they have, so they still lose out). Even if you can't take advantage of that free turn, you're playing stall and defog has 15 PP. By playing stall you've basically signed a waiver saying that you don't mind having 400 turn PP stall games.

Something that should be key to stall at the moment is taking advantage of that momentum. Even if you only run SR, momentum is as key to stall as to any other team in this meta. If you can keep up the pressure, then the opp can't find time to defog (or if they do, the defogger is getting statused).
A combination of status and hazards is imo the best way to go. It makes the playstyle more dynamic in that you can set up hazards if they don't have defog (which a lot of teams lack), or go with the XY stall approach and fire off some toxics. Every team should have SR, and Spikes are one moveslot on something like Ferrothorn or Skarmory (which most teams should be running if they don't want to be torn apart by a bunch of stuff like Manaphy or MPinsir).

POWER SPIKE
This is something that is really important. Stuff like MPinsir and Kyu-B feast on teams like this. The only thing that can sort of beat them both is Bronzong, and let's be honest, fitting a Bronzong on your team is kind of difficult atm. Outside of Bronzong, nothing can safely switch in to both, so we have to resort to that thing I touched on earlier; Momentum. We just can't let stuff like Charizard-Y get free switch-ins. Smart switches on our part and slow volturns are the key to keeping momentum on our side. This also means a fast and/or offensive threat is also useful on teams like this to break other stalls faster and crush slow offensive behemoths like Manaphy. CB Terrakion is a perfect example of a pokemon like this.

The usage of 2/3+ boosting moves is actually not very large, and most users can be beat by common things on stall teams. Manaphy can't get past Clefable/Ferro/Chansey, MPinsir has trouble breaking through Skarmory, and how is SD Scizor going to get past Skarmory and Heatran? Momentum can stop this, too, if you don't have room for some of those pokes. Free turns = Lost games. This means things like Wish or (arguably) Heal Bell are too slow. This also extends to things like setting up your own stuff. Carrying a threat on your team like CP Clefable or CroCune gives you something to use some momentum on. Momentum is like a game of tug of war with the opp. Take the advantage, then take the game.

Another way to beat set up sweepers is to scare them in to not setting up with something that could very well be the best last slot on most stall teams: Ditto. When used in conjunction with the set up fodder that is stall, we can force people to ask themselves, "should I really be setting up here". As such Ditto covers up a lot of holes, and has a lot of utility like doing stuff such as copying Flash Fire on Tran, stealing Poison Heal from Gliscor, or stealing moves like Heal Bell or SR. Ditto also gives us probably the best scouter in the game. Scouting = Knowledge, and knowledge wins games.

Other than that are the standard troubles stall had last gen. ATM every team should have something that can stop volturn, be it something to absorb a volt switch, or something that can get SR up fast and rack up the damage. They'll have to come in to defog/RS eventually, and you can grab back the momentum then. Something that all status based stall teams (and most hazard ones, too) should have is Protect. Scouting = Knowledge, and knowledge wins games. Just be careful, though, as a bad Protect is a free turn, and we know what happens if the opp takes advantage.

To quote Professor Oak, "there's a time and place for everything".

BUFFS
You also can't ignore the buffs to stall. This generation has been generous, giving us 3 big things: A mega slot, Mega Venusaur in particular, nerfed crits and common special coverage like IB and Hidden Power, and a meta where usually inferior pokes can thrive. A special mention to trapping moves like infestation, which will probably lead into a new breed of stall.

First off, the mega slot. In general this gives us something really, really important. A trick/switcheroo absorber. Now we're not forced to lose an important part of our team because the Rotom-W decided to trick Chansey a scarf. More specifically, it gives us Mega Venusaur. This guy has the bulk and the typing to wall half of the pokemon being used right now. This means we have 5 other slots to beat the rest, and that's where the difficulty arises. Secondly, nerfed crits and common coverage moves is actually pretty significant, turning OHKOs into 2HKOs and 2HKOs into 3HKOs. It also brings up the question, "should I run this move despite its low BP" to the enemy team builder. This makes things a bit easier to read when you have 0 knowledge of the enemy team. And finally, the meta. At the moment, with a little thought, you can use so much more possible pokes on your team compared to last gen. I've been laddering with a Lanturn and a Hitmontop on PO and recently hit 1600 since those 2 pokes actually cover quite a few threats atm. SpD Zapdos is really good in the current meta, too. Really though, if you can think about it, try it. It'll probably work.

Also, just a random note for those running Mega Venusaur: ResTalk (credit to Chomp29 for this idea) is completely superior to a garbage move like Synthesis or Leech Seed. Venusaur hates WoW since Synthesis only has 8 PP. Rest makes it so Rotom-W can't do anything at all now. Make it feel helpless. That is the job of a stall player. Make the opp feel helpless.

tl;dr Momentum wins games, Knowledge wins games, Mega Venusaur wins games, and creativity wins games.

 

[Boltaway]

I personally run a gastrodon with infestation, just to get all the Rotom-W's that are so greedy and HAVE to burn you before switching out lol. Stall is really hard to play now, and I currently run a super niche kind of stall, pressure stall (2180 in OU), which unfortunately doesn't really belong in this thread :/

I find that the trapping moves other than infestation are too much trouble for what they're worth. The 85% accuracy is meh, and you miss too often (and they have too many common immunities) to make them useful. I know at the very beginning of this gen, I tried out pokemon like sub/protect/torment/firespin heatran and sub/protect/torment/rocktomb poison heal gliscor, both of which worked decently. I found that those sets let heatran and gliscor overcome their checks, as unless a pokemon has two things to hit heatran effectively (two out of water/fight/ground is somewhat uncommon, actually), heatran would almost always get a sub up, and protect on the correct turns. However, the set also caused heatran to lose against what it would normally win against. For example, it couldn't beat talonflame with roost, especially one with swords dance.

All in all, I believe the only real buffs to stall are the nerfed crits (this is HUGE), and the lowered power special moves.

Traditional stall is generally dead (there are still many teams without a defogger, but it still means damage by EH is unreliable), and XY stall isn't really stall at all.

I was actually running pressure stall as well for quite a while, although I used Infestation Tentacruel to screw over Ferrothorn and the like, as well as being my only semi-counter to special M-Lucario. While I agree that the 85% accuracy is bad, trapping and then slowly taking them down with Toxic can be really amusing. I also ran a double wishpass core of Alomomola and Chansey (both sides of the spectrum, there) to stall even longer.

Anywho, I don't think that nerfed crits and lowered special moves are the only benefits to stall. We gained the fairy type, which is a great defensive typing (although it sorely lacks physical walls), but has decreased the amount of dragons running Outrage, which is helpful in the long-run for stall.

Knock Off is a mixed bag, but I think that most competent stall teams are running M-Vensuaur regardless, so he functions as a great pivot for it; furthermore, it allows stall teams to dispose of Life Orbs, Choice Bands, Leftovers, and the like on opposing teams. Don't let Chansey get hit though.

Personally, I don't think traditional stall is dead and I'm perhaps a bit biased, but I think that any stall team reliant on Entry Hazards needs effective scouting of any potential Defog users -- Togekiss, Scizor, Mandibuzz, Latios. Since nearly no team carries two Defog users, I generally go about setting up one layer of Stealth Rock or Spikes (depending on the team), and baiting their Defog users into coming out. Having Prankster Taunt from Sabeley or a fairly fast taunt from Mandibuzz can be helpful in these moments, but ultimately all you need to do is figure out their Defog users. Of course, this is easier said than done, but once you do figure out the user of the move, it ultimately comes down to being able to put their user to sleep, toxic, lure in and KO, or simply wear them down with hazards, since most users of the move (Mandibuzz and Scizor in particular) are still suspectible to the move. I find that the usual Heatran + M-Venusaur core deals well with most common Defog users, except for perhaps Mew, who is unpredicatable anyway.

I agree that traditional stall isn't going to be as effective a strategy as it once was (by which I mean in Gen 4 because Gen 5 never had a stall-friendly meta to begin with), that doesn't mean that it's simply invalidated or nonexistent by XY stall, which has problems of its own, especially in this early, offensive meta.

 

[Ajwf]

Really, I've found stall a lot more abstract this generation, allowing for a quite a few more ideas outside of hazard stall. But, with the new additions of fairies (and nearly all of them having a heal bell/aromatherapy move), using pure/mainly status stall is not only dangerous, but destructive as a whole. The reliance on an opponent to stay in while toxic accumulates is unlikely given that stall pokes shouldn't be staying in the whole time either (unless manphy/chansey kind of match). I mean, yes trap/toxic works unless they bring in a steel/heal bell user/something that can kill you first. That's pretty unreliable in my mind, and my building of stall is supposed to provide reliability and consistency before creativity.

Personally, I think defog was the single biggest buff to stall. We don't have to devote a spot to a rapid spinner, but more importantly hazard stall got shot really hard (hazard stall always brought more dislike to the style than it was worth). Maybe not so much a buff as a mold breaker. I had been running a few teams that didn't rely on spikes at the end of gen 5 mainly because I liked the idea of a lighter defensive style with more interplay on clerics and offensive pressure. It wasn't nearly as viable as it is this generation. More importantly, it made the people who wanted to design an effective stall team a more crafty/true group. There isn't the simply hazard/spinblocker mentality of 5th gen anymore, now we get a complete free form style of team building. Unfortunately right now there is a reliance on mega venusaur and building a core around him, but I've had varied success with teams not including him (from very little to one right now that is just becoming insanely good...)

On set up bait, stall isn't nearly as prone to being such anymore because they aren't looking for three turns to set spikes. At the same time, a lot of people in the style consistently underestimate the power of roar/whirlwind. It isn't just creating damage, it is creating potentially advantageous situations and saving you from being swept. Now that hazard stall isn't being used, I generally can look at full teams without one phazing option. However, since a general shift of stall has become a heavier defensive tank (generally with strong recovery, or just taking advantage of them resttalk mechanics) so there is some noticeable offensive pressure.

 

[Tangelo]

@Ajwf
Honestly as far as defog is concerned, the biggest issue with it is the reliability. The most common type that use spikes are Deo-D/S hyper offense. You will NEVER find a chance to get off a defog since both these pokes run Taunt, and everything else on the team is a serious offensive threat that you're giving time to set up. Taunt doesn't stop Rapid Spin, meaning they lose a lot of pressure and have basically wasted a slot. The problem here is that most RS are subpar. The other type are old school stall teams, which are basically nonexistant, but these should also be running status. So basically, defog is pretty useless against HO in comparison to RS. We may not have to devote a spot to a spinner, but we do have to devote one to a defogger, and it also means SR for us is a lot less reliable.

About phazing, yes, you have the potential to get in an advantageous position, but at the same time you're at a risk of giving them one. It's not very reliable at all. Not to mention, it doesn't stop a sweep. It only delays it. This means things like CroCune/Curselax/CP Clef can just wait till everything on the team is KOd and set up. As such I think Perish Song is more useful.

 

[Ajwf]

If you're allowing Deo-S to stay alive long enough to taunt you when you decide to defog, you're doing it wrong. Stall should DICTATE the pace, and therefore you just need to find a turn to come in and get rid of it. HO is so stupidly easy to take care of for stall, bar something like alakazam with perfect accuracy (Edit: of course mega lucario. Whatever, you should be prepared for that). HO doesn't run too many wall breakers, where arguably every pokemon on a bulky offensive team has that wall breaking power (slower, more powerful attacks... and mega chomp). Rapid spin shouldn't be considered any more unless you have a rain team. I can't justify shooting myself in the foot to run forretress or, god forbid, donphan to clear hazards. Mandibuzz, Mega scizor, skarmory and even latias can do it without enough consistency that if I see a Deo-S, I'm just going to kill it and then defog.

The whole point of roar is to clear out a pokemon that already has you in a slightly disadvantageous position (but one that can't KO you right then). If you're smart, one of the best uses is to roar when they switch, or to mess with wish passing this way. For delaying sweeps, the most worrisome ones are like MegaTar, maybe even mega lucario or WP Dnite. CroCune, Snorlax and Clef have to be solved separately because of their ability to dodge toxic stalling (which, surprise surprise, is exactly why toxic stall is inferior and can't be relied on)

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

I just want to nuance that Defog is not the magical answer to what you guys call "traditional stall". As a stall player I can assure you that even if you have Defog, I'm going to come out on top with Hazard Stall. Defog has 24 PP, Stealth Rock has 32. Spikes has 32. I have all the time in the world to stall you out of PP, forcing you to Defog over and over or have your team get weakened by hazards slowly but surely. It doesn't matter how long it takes, Stall was designed for battles that take long so I'm at the advantage, and eventually, I will win.

 

[Senile]

The only thing neutral to those things commonly seen on stall teams is mega venusaur, who has trouble doing anything back as Kyurem-B is often behind a sub, and ferrothorn, who can only hit back if it has gyro ball, and still doesn't like ice beam damage, although it can set up spikes (but again, spikes usage is going down).

Not even Mega Venusaur. Teravolt goes through Thick Fat, meaning his STAB Ice Beam is doing super effective damage.

216+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 188-224 (51.6 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As you can see, even a fully specially defensive M.Venusaur isn't taking that Ice Beam, thanks to the lack of leftovers. Since Kyurem-B is probably behind a substitute, it's not getting Leech Seed healing either, and obviously Synthesis spam won't work.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

I run traditional stall personally because I like spikes stacking which usually makes for a win if I can do it. I do agree though that defog stall has its merit and may be better overall.

Honestly I find the two kind of mix, as a lot of good stall Pokemon like Latias, Malibuzz, Skarmory, and Zapdos, all have defog, so you can either have it or not. I know my current team could become a defog team in an instant, all I would have to do is switch Spikes for Defog on Skarmory and run a different Pokemon over Tentacruel.

 

[Tangelo]

@Ajwf
Letting him live or not, he gets up SR + 1 layer of spikes that you can't do anything about. You can't dictate the pace when they lose a pokemon and get a free switch-in to force whatever you have in out. Either way, I'll give you that thing about wallbreakers; you're right there, but for RS vs Defog, each to his own. Hitmontop has been serving me well ;]

I still don't agree on roar, though. You roar as they switch, so what? There's still the chances of whether or not you get a good switch-in. That's not very reliable. You gave an example of roaring vs wish, but that only happens against other slow teams. I also don't see how Hazard stall beats last poke boosters better than Toxic, if that's what you meant. I'm probably misunderstanding, though.

 

[SansNickel]

Not even Mega Venusaur. Teravolt goes through Thick Fat, meaning his STAB Ice Beam is doing super effective damage.

216+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 188-224 (51.6 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As you can see, even a fully specially defensive M.Venusaur isn't taking that Ice Beam, thanks to the lack of leftovers. Since Kyurem-B is probably behind a substitute, it's not getting Leech Seed healing either, and obviously Synthesis spam won't work.

Lol, right. My corrected point makes it even stronger :(

 

[Ajwf]

@Ajwf
Letting him live or not, he gets up SR + 1 layer of spikes that you can't do anything about. You can't dictate the pace when they lose a pokemon and get a free switch-in to force whatever you have in out. Either way, I'll give you that thing about wallbreakers; you're right there, but for RS vs Defog, each to his own. Hitmontop has been serving me well ;]

I still don't agree on roar, though. You roar as they switch, so what? There's still the chances of whether or not you get a good switch-in. That's not very reliable. You gave an example of roaring vs wish, but that only happens against other slow teams. I also don't see how Hazard stall beats last poke boosters better than Toxic, if that's what you meant. I'm probably misunderstanding, though.

Yeah, I don't advocate hazard or toxic stall. Both have endgame issues, though hazard stall struggles with specific ones while hazard stall just has something to KO the last user, hoping it is warn down enough.

For momentum, I'm not talking about eliminating hazards right after they are set, I'm more concerned about the eventuality of clearing the hazards. Eventually, I'll have time to clear them. And really, it's spikes and SR if I get it in two hits... Maybe it's just player dependent on the amount of patience you have.

 

[Yuttt]

I think the biggest playstyle threatening stall is Deoxys HO. Nothing besides aegislash stops it from getting up 2 layers of hazards. Even Tentacruel, the most common spinner on stall, gets KOd by Psycho boost. After they get lots of hazards up, the general plan is to apply offensive pressure to force switches and wear down your team to the point where something like Mluke or LandI can clean. They commonly have a Bisharp/Aegislash core, preventing you from both spinning and punishing Defog. Unless you have Quagsire on your team, when you defog on bisharp, he has a good chance to sweep your team. Even if you do have Quagsire, they can manage to keep up pressure and not let the defogger in. The only stall mon that can restrict Deoxys to 1 layer is aegislash. The final option is to include magic coat on a pokemon.

 

[Mulligan]

If you're allowing Deo-S to stay alive long enough to taunt you when you decide to defog, you're doing it wrong. Stall should DICTATE the pace, and therefore you just need to find a turn to come in and get rid of it. HO is so stupidly easy to take care of for stall, bar something like alakazam with perfect accuracy (Edit: of course mega lucario. Whatever, you should be prepared for that). HO doesn't run too many wall breakers, where arguably every pokemon on a bulky offensive team has that wall breaking power (slower, more powerful attacks... and mega chomp).

Um...what the hell are you talking about? Any good HO team carries at least 2 wallbreakers, not including their sweeper. Also, Deo-S is easy enough to kill, but I don't see how stall KOs Deo-D, since nothing stall carries typically hits hard enough to even 2HKO it. Except Aegislash (another reason I said earlier that it should be THE Ghost to run on stall).

Also, Bisharp is still a thing, so you're not exactly going to Defog willy-nilly. Unless you want to give Bisharp a free +2 with a possible +4/Sub. Not saying stall dies to HO. It certainly doesn't. But, it's nowhere near as easy as you're making it. And if it is that easy, you're not playing good HO teams/good players. Bulky offense is the one that doesn't carry a ton of wallbreakers.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Ok I know this is a bit unconventional but, that's what this gen stall is all about: AV cobalion.

AV cobalion along with sdef and AV jirachi poses as the only true counters to kyurem B in the tier, while also having a very nice and niche speed tier beating out 100s like mega garde and killing them off with iron head/damaging/volt switching out on 'em (that's right, this thing gets fucking volt switch :D) them, not only that but this thing can also serve as a nice check to the omnipresent fairies:

Cobalion @ Assault Vest
Ability: Justified
EVs: 192 Spd / 252 HP / 64 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Sacred Sword
- Iron Head
- Volt Switch
- Stone Edge

This cobalion is specifically tailored to shit on kyurem, no joke. Cobalion is one bulky as shit user of AV due to it's natural physical bulk, HP and well, AV. Coballions very hard niche is the combination of volt switch, movepool, typing, bulk and speed. This set aims to abuse all of them. The speed investment outspeeds timid base 100s by exactly 2 points, which as a bonus outspeeds everything in and below 100 speed, especially KYUREM-B. Volt Switch is obviously abused because lol volt switch is there. Stone edge kills off boosted volcarona(+1 252 SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Assault Vest Cobalion: 324-384 (83.9 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) and is mainly filler. the STABs are the real deal, iron head ripping fairies, and unlike many other fighting types, cobal does not have to sacrifice it's defenses due to sacred sword! letting it clean tank hits CC would have made 2HKOs and OHKOs.

Some calcs to throw around:
252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 176-208 (45.5 - 53.8%) -- 46.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 118-139 (30.5 - 36%) -- 46% chance to 3HKO
216+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Assault Vest Cobalion: 160-190 (41.4 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
76 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Assault Vest Cobalion: 169-200 (43.7 - 51.8%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 157-186 (40.6 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Assault Vest Cobalion: 158-188 (40.9 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Surf vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Assault Vest Cobalion: 119-140 (30.8 - 36.2%) -- 56% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Assault Vest Cobalion: 324-384 (83.9 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Assault Vest Cobalion: 160-188 (41.4 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 314-372 (81.3 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 264-312 (68.3 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and more which I'm too lazy to calc

 

[Yuttt]

if you're THAT desperate, just run SpD Scizor

 

[Ajwf]

Um...what the hell are you talking about? Any good HO team carries at least 2 wallbreakers, not including their sweeper. Also, Deo-S is easy enough to kill, but I don't see how stall KOs Deo-D, since nothing stall carries typically hits hard enough to even 2HKO it. Except Aegislash (another reason I said earlier that it should be THE Ghost to run on stall).

Also, Bisharp is still a thing, so you're not exactly going to Defog willy-nilly. Unless you want to give Bisharp a free +2 with a possible +4/Sub. Not saying stall dies to HO. It certainly doesn't. But, it's nowhere near as easy as you're making it. And if it is that easy, you're not playing good HO teams/good players. Bulky offense is the one that doesn't carry a ton of wallbreakers.

Here's the thing: You're ASSUMING stall won't run any heavy attacker. Aka Torn-T. I have to 3hko it, but I still can and Deo-D only gets two hazards because I outspeed. I mean, it's just that way.

I won't argue what 'good' HO runs because 'good' HO isn't run outside of lucario and his handmaids (which yes, generally includes bisharp but who cares... We have ways to stop that as well). True wall breakers that will break ANY wall are not seen on HO. HO, the really good ones, have a wall breaker to clear what the sweeper needs cleared very specifically. Which means I probably won't see Kyub or Gar-mega. Might see haxorus (lel), but I think that would be about it on the 'break everything' list... The attack stat needed to break simply everything is somewhere around 160 right now.