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Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Snow Warning Kyurem
I always loved Blizzards
And hail
I always loved Blizzards
And hail
I'm not particularly fond of any of these, but whatever.
Snow Warning Kyurem: This is excellent flavorwise, but I'm kind of skeptical about using him. On one hand, he has a great special attack to work with, and combined with STAB Blizzard in hail, that's pretty scary. He also has Dragon Pulse, Focus Blast, and Earth Power to hit quite a few things hard, as well as Roost for longevity. On the other hand, he has a terrible defensive typing, cursing him with a Stealth Rock weakness, as well as Fighting, Steel, Fairy, and Dragon weaknesses. His STAB coverage means Steel-types can come in fairly easily and either set up on him or destroy him with their STAB. He'd also be pretty predictable, meaning a special wall can come in and stall to their content. And even with Snow Warning, he faces competition with Kyurem-B, who can threaten both physical and special walls very well, and is threatened by Mega Tyranitar, since if he Mega Evolves, that gets rid of the hail, and gives him an opportunity to set up a Dragon Dance. The best out of this batch, but that's really not saying much.
Nasty Plot Tentacruel: His offensive power was always a bit underrated, but I would never say it was really good. Nasty Plot hopes to remedy this a bit, but it can only go so far. Whenever Tentacruel comes in on something like a Scizor or Mega Mawile, he really just sits there and takes hits after he burns them. With Nasty Plot, he can spend his time powering himself up and hit like a truck, and since he's a Poison-type, he's immune to Toxic, being a nightmare for stall teams. But if he's facing an offensive team, a Nasty Plot set is kind of dead weight. Long story short, the bane of most stall, the punchingbag of most offense.
Gale Wings Salamence: This actually sounds rather interesting. I'd still never be caught dead with Aerial Ace on him, but Roost and Tailwind have potential. Defensive Salamence could use prioritized Roost to heal before most things, and Tailwind can really support the team. But defensive Dragon-types are rare for a reason, since Fairy- and Ice-types are always in the mood to kill a Dragon, and opposing Dragons consider defensive sets easy prey. Stealth Rock weakness does Salamence no favors either, and is still vulnerable to every status in the game with no defense against it. Overall, it's alright, but not great.
Magic Bounce Musharna: It's so hard to not compare her to Cresselia it's not even funny. Moonlight? Check. Same type? Check. Defensive? Check. But there are differentiations between the two. Musharna has Heal Bell, Hypnosis, Yawn, and much more special attack, and with Magic Bounce, it gives her a niche over Cresselia. But now she has competition with Espeon as a Magic Bouncer, who has much more special attack and speed. And despite the buff, I still see her as a poor man's Cresselia, who has much more bulk and speed, and has Lunar Dance. This is kind of like putting Creselia and Espeon together, but getting the minimal results.
My vote goes to Snow Warning Kyurem, because his buff is the one that's the least disappointing.
Snow Warning Kyurem: This is excellent flavorwise, but I'm kind of skeptical about using him. On one hand, he has a great special attack to work with, and combined with STAB Blizzard in hail, that's pretty scary. He also has Dragon Pulse, Focus Blast, and Earth Power to hit quite a few things hard, as well as Roost for longevity. On the other hand, he has a terrible defensive typing, cursing him with a Stealth Rock weakness, as well as Fighting, Steel, Fairy, and Dragon weaknesses. His STAB coverage means Steel-types can come in fairly easily and either set up on him or destroy him with their STAB. He'd also be pretty predictable, meaning a special wall can come in and stall to their content. And even with Snow Warning, he faces competition with Kyurem-B, who can threaten both physical and special walls very well, and is threatened by Mega Tyranitar, since if he Mega Evolves, that gets rid of the hail, and gives him an opportunity to set up a Dragon Dance. The best out of this batch, but that's really not saying much.
Nasty Plot Tentacruel: His offensive power was always a bit underrated, but I would never say it was really good. Nasty Plot hopes to remedy this a bit, but it can only go so far. Whenever Tentacruel comes in on something like a Scizor or Mega Mawile, he really just sits there and takes hits after he burns them. With Nasty Plot, he can spend his time powering himself up and hit like a truck, and since he's a Poison-type, he's immune to Toxic, being a nightmare for stall teams. But if he's facing an offensive team, a Nasty Plot set is kind of dead weight. Long story short, the bane of most stall, the punchingbag of most offense.
Gale Wings Salamence: This actually sounds rather interesting. I'd still never be caught dead with Aerial Ace on him, but Roost and Tailwind have potential. Defensive Salamence could use prioritized Roost to heal before most things, and Tailwind can really support the team. But defensive Dragon-types are rare for a reason, since Fairy- and Ice-types are always in the mood to kill a Dragon, and opposing Dragons consider defensive sets easy prey. Stealth Rock weakness does Salamence no favors either, and is still vulnerable to every status in the game with no defense against it. Overall, it's alright, but not great.
Magic Bounce Musharna: It's so hard to not compare her to Cresselia it's not even funny. Moonlight? Check. Same type? Check. Defensive? Check. But there are differentiations between the two. Musharna has Heal Bell, Hypnosis, Yawn, and much more special attack, and with Magic Bounce, it gives her a niche over Cresselia. But now she has competition with Espeon as a Magic Bouncer, who has much more special attack and speed. And despite the buff, I still see her as a poor man's Cresselia, who has much more bulk and speed, and has Lunar Dance. This is kind of like putting Creselia and Espeon together, but getting the minimal results.
My vote goes to Snow Warning Kyurem, because his buff is the one that's the least disappointing.
Man, half of the theorymons have no place in OU(wtf was up with bulletproof gross anyways?) but finally two possibly viable ones. NP Cruel is a gimmick and like a previous poster said, Musharna is so aesthetically unpleasing it should never be good(and Magic Bounce is a mindless ability that makes any pokemon almost viable). So it is up to GW Mence and SW Kyurem, both who actually sound like they might do something in OU(again, unlike half of the other theorymons). At first glance GW Mence sounds completely overpowered and brought images of the gen 4 monster we all feared... However, if alex is right Aerial Ace is it's strongest physical stab making it a seem like a bad joke and something GF would do... until the next gen where they give it a 120 base power move... but i'm getting off topic. Mence might have a crappy stab move but it has a much better typing than the other GW user along with a higher attack. You guys think GWs would add utility to Mence thanks to the lack of a strong flying move, but nay i say. Screw defog, roost or whatever other support move he has, GW Mence is an intimidating physical attacker and sweeper. With a choice band, it threatens frail pokemon weak to priority and hits ridiculously hard with Outrage which would still be it's main stab. Aerial Ace is mostly just to scare the other player. It would play very similar to choice band scizor, with a similar base power priority attack. To be honest GWs + Aerial Ace would be a similar boost that Scizor got in platinum with technician and BP. Other than a choiced set, a LO DD set is finally very viable again. With stronger priority than Dragonite and after a +1 speed boost Aerial Ace will always hit first. DD Mence finally has a reason to be used over DNite. Either way, it's silly to think GW will change Mence into something it isn't. It turns him into a frightening sweeper that is really hard to revenge kill. Love it.
SW Kyurem on the other hand is also just another mindless power buff. I'm not as excited about it though. Ice is a horrible typing and using an ice type is usually a wasted slot in your team. The possibilities with this thing make me think. 120 stab that never misses.. but again, it's a damn ice type and i can't bring myself to using it. I still think it would actually be usable in OU, which is saying a lot. Considering the horrendous typing, crappy stat distribution and lack of Dragon Dance.
So my vote goes to Gale Wings Salamence, pretty much the scariest(offensively speaking) theorymon yet. You all underestimate how frightening a +1 Atk/Spd LO Mence can be with a stab base 90 power priority attack.
SW Kyurem on the other hand is also just another mindless power buff. I'm not as excited about it though. Ice is a horrible typing and using an ice type is usually a wasted slot in your team. The possibilities with this thing make me think. 120 stab that never misses.. but again, it's a damn ice type and i can't bring myself to using it. I still think it would actually be usable in OU, which is saying a lot. Considering the horrendous typing, crappy stat distribution and lack of Dragon Dance.
So my vote goes to Gale Wings Salamence, pretty much the scariest(offensively speaking) theorymon yet. You all underestimate how frightening a +1 Atk/Spd LO Mence can be with a stab base 90 power priority attack.
Thought I'd investigate this because boredom. Assuming max HP and max SpA for Tentacruel (which would be the case when used as a stallbreaker), and the most common (but inferior) spread for Chansey:
Chansey Seismic Toss vs. 252 HP Tentacruel: 100-100 (27.4 - 27.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+6 252+ SpA Tentacruel Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 165-195 (23.4 - 27.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
By those Calculations, Tentacruel can actually switch in on a toss, then boost up to +6 in 3 turns without dying to 3 more tosses, then start spamming Giga Drain, which when combined with Black Sludge recovery, recovers more damage than what seismic toss can deal out. I also made sure that Tentacruel doesn't need the 5th turn of Black Sludge recovery in addition to the Giga Drain recovery in order to survive, which, crucial to this hypothetical sets success, it doesn't. Then, every time Chansey is forced to go for a Softboiled (every 3rd turn), Tentacruel can go for a Sludge Bomb:
+6 252+ SpA Tentacruel Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 297-351 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
The 30% chance of poisoning would eventually spell doom for Chansey, since I doubt it would have time to Heal Bell, since from that point Tentacruel could continue spamming Sludge Bomb which would be doing more than 50% after poison damage, all while Tentacruel is receiving free passive recovery.
TL;DR: Nasty Plot Tentacruel can counter Chansey.
As for my vote, I'll go with Nasty Plot Tentacruel. It's the least likely one to make much of a difference, but the others just seem rather annoying to me.
Gale Wings Salamence
Gale Wings Salamence
As much as I'd love to make "Frozen" jokes, I think it would be fun to discuss all the moves Mence can now use. It could use priority Tailwind just before fainting, or Roost on a more defensive set, and it gets some form of priority too, although admittedly 60BP isn't quite Talonflame-level.
(It doesn't have to be a snowman...)
EDIT: Defog too
As much as I'd love to make "Frozen" jokes, I think it would be fun to discuss all the moves Mence can now use. It could use priority Tailwind just before fainting, or Roost on a more defensive set, and it gets some form of priority too, although admittedly 60BP isn't quite Talonflame-level.
(It doesn't have to be a snowman...)
EDIT: Defog too
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Magic Bounce Musharna
Hard pick over NP Tentacruel, but in the end I wasn't completely convinced that offensive Tentacruel would be useful, while Magic Bounce would be really cool on something that actually has bulk.
Snow Warning Kyurem actually sounds a little overpowering to me, and I suspect that Gale Wings Salamence would either be way too good or never even used, with little to no middle ground. All it really gets is priority on a DD set that's already pretty fast (the only things I can think of that it beats are Mamoswine, Scarf Keldeo and Terrakion, and Deoxys-S) so it would probably prefer to just go for extra coverage unless there's some extra benefit that I'm missing. Priority Tailwind has been around for a while, and priority Defog isn't honestly that interesting (Aerodactyl practically has priority on it anyway it's so fast).
Hard pick over NP Tentacruel, but in the end I wasn't completely convinced that offensive Tentacruel would be useful, while Magic Bounce would be really cool on something that actually has bulk.
Snow Warning Kyurem actually sounds a little overpowering to me, and I suspect that Gale Wings Salamence would either be way too good or never even used, with little to no middle ground. All it really gets is priority on a DD set that's already pretty fast (the only things I can think of that it beats are Mamoswine, Scarf Keldeo and Terrakion, and Deoxys-S) so it would probably prefer to just go for extra coverage unless there's some extra benefit that I'm missing. Priority Tailwind has been around for a while, and priority Defog isn't honestly that interesting (Aerodactyl practically has priority on it anyway it's so fast).
Snow Warning Kyurem - While bringing Hail into OU is definitely a plus, most Hail abusers still suck and so in the end, this is just a mindless offensive buff. Alex, you said yourself in reply to my other suggestion that we have plenty of wallbreakers and that we don't need any more. I don't see how this is not a contradiction to what you said.
Nasty Plot Tentacruel - Tenta's only real use in OU last Gen was being a Spinner with much survivability thanks to Rain Dish, which is gone with the weather. 80/100 offenses (Speed's the second stat if you don't know) aren't very good for sweeping, and even if it can outstall Chansey, what's it going to do to the likes of Thundurus-T or Mega Venusaur?
Gale Wings Salamence - The only thing Salamence gets out of this is priority Aerial Ace (lol support on a sweeper). This is actually a big deal, as one of Salamence's major problems is getting revenge killed. At +1, it outspeeds Talonflame and does this:
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 261-308 (87.5 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
The 12.5% chance to OHKO doesn't matter if SR is up, and I imagine it would on a team with a setup sweeper. It (barely) overpowers Mega Scizor as well.
Magic Bounce Musharna -Clearly the best of all of them, no personal bias. Defensive Magic Bouncer is pretty self-explanatory, and it solves the main complaint that people have about Magic Bouncers. Other than a bit of a lower Sp. Attack and a lot lower Speed, it 100% outclasses Espeon. It gets all of Espeon's important moves, has much beefier Subs, better Defense, and a means of putting foes to sleep/forcing switches with Yawn.
Also, those of you voting for something else because you think Musharna is ugly should be ashamed of yourselves as competitive battlers, as appearance has no correlation to viability and shouldn't affect any good player's thinking.
I'm voting for Magic Bounce Musharna, as it is my own suggestion. It would also be a fantastic discussion to coincide with the Baton Pass one that's going on right now.
Nasty Plot Tentacruel - Tenta's only real use in OU last Gen was being a Spinner with much survivability thanks to Rain Dish, which is gone with the weather. 80/100 offenses (Speed's the second stat if you don't know) aren't very good for sweeping, and even if it can outstall Chansey, what's it going to do to the likes of Thundurus-T or Mega Venusaur?
Gale Wings Salamence - The only thing Salamence gets out of this is priority Aerial Ace (lol support on a sweeper). This is actually a big deal, as one of Salamence's major problems is getting revenge killed. At +1, it outspeeds Talonflame and does this:
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 261-308 (87.5 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
The 12.5% chance to OHKO doesn't matter if SR is up, and I imagine it would on a team with a setup sweeper. It (barely) overpowers Mega Scizor as well.
Magic Bounce Musharna -
Also, those of you voting for something else because you think Musharna is ugly should be ashamed of yourselves as competitive battlers, as appearance has no correlation to viability and shouldn't affect any good player's thinking.
I'm voting for Magic Bounce Musharna, as it is my own suggestion. It would also be a fantastic discussion to coincide with the Baton Pass one that's going on right now.
Magic Bounce Musharna
Snow Warning Kyuruem might be a novel idea, leading to some play of hail, but Kyuruem does not need anything additional to increase its viability within its tier. Musharna certainly could.
Snow Warning Kyuruem might be a novel idea, leading to some play of hail, but Kyuruem does not need anything additional to increase its viability within its tier. Musharna certainly could.
tentacruel is just a set up sweeper
kyurem is just blizzspam
salamence is bretty gud but I like musharna more
magic bounce musharna
dat bulk
dat semi reliable recovery (moonlight)
kyurem is just blizzspam
salamence is bretty gud but I like musharna more
magic bounce musharna
dat bulk
dat semi reliable recovery (moonlight)
Magic Bounce Musharna: We don't need another psychic type magic bouncer. Although the ability is cool.
Snow Warning Kyurem: Best one flavorwise, but all it gets is blizzspam, some residual damage, and an ability to check other weather sweepers (which aren't as common due to the weather nerf).
Nasty Plot Tentacruel: I like it. 100 base speed, with great coverage.
Gale Wings Salamence: I also like it. Priority roost and tailwind means it can opt for both support and offense.
While Nasty Plot Tentacruel is cool, I think Gale Wings Salamence is just flat-out better.
Snow Warning Kyurem: Best one flavorwise, but all it gets is blizzspam, some residual damage, and an ability to check other weather sweepers (which aren't as common due to the weather nerf).
Nasty Plot Tentacruel: I like it. 100 base speed, with great coverage.
Gale Wings Salamence: I also like it. Priority roost and tailwind means it can opt for both support and offense.
While Nasty Plot Tentacruel is cool, I think Gale Wings Salamence is just flat-out better.
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