Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)

[alexwolf]

Gale Wings Salamence

Also when are last months theorymons going to be put up

Joim is working on it, i will let you know as soon as the new ladder is up.

rip in peace snow warning kyurem tu.u
alexwolf , you're very intelligent on this metagame, would you mind explaining your thoughts on Gale Wings Salamence?

Here is a set that could be great:

Salamence @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Aerial Ace
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast

While not as good at wallbreaking as it was in 5th gen, this set is still very hard to wall for offensive and balanced teams, and has the added benefit of strong priority in the form of Aerial Ace, which goes a long way in fixing Salamence's problems against offensive teams, where Pokemon such as Keldeo, Gengar, Greninja, Deoxys-S, and Scolipede can all be forced out and dealt with by Salamence. This set is not easy to wall without SpD Hippo, Physically defensive Clefable, physically defensive Sylveon, or Chansey, and its strong priority gives it a lot of utility against offensive teams. Advantages over Talonflame? Way more power, which means that it's walled by way less Pokemon, and no recoil on its STAB moves and only 2x SR weakness, meaning it's way less suicidal and requires less support. The EV spread could use some fixing, but you want Aerial Ace and Draco Meteor to be as strong as possible.

Gale Wings Aerial Ace could also be a nice weapon on DD sets, to bypass opposing priority from the likes of Talonflame, Scizor, Azumarill, and Thundurus, provided they are weakened enough to get KOed from Aerial Ace.

Not sure about defensive sets, will think about it a bit more and maybe post later...

Also, Defog + Gale Wings is legal here, dw.

 

[Salemance]

Also, Defog + Gale Wings is legal here, dw.

So yes, you now have the priority hazard remover. May not be Whimsicott, but its something.

Will post set here later when have more time.

 

[TheInsanity]

Gale Wings Mence can be pretty cool.
Is not easy for a lot of teams kill megasaur. He can be a wallbreaker/revengekiller.

Something like:

Salamence @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 156 Atk / 252 SAtk / 100 Spe
Rash Nature
- Draco Meteor / Hydro Pump
- Aerial Ace
- Fire Blast
- Earthkquake / Steel Wing

We already have a good attack. Thinking about SubCube, i don't know if we need DM. Dragon type this gen has one immunity. With hydro pump we can hit hippowdon, gliscor, landrobros. Steel wing can be funny to get a free kill against a fairy. A little aegislash.

 

[Der Richter]

Gale Wings Mence can be pretty cool.
Is not easy for a lot of teams kill megasaur. He can be a wallbreaker/revengekiller.

Something like:

Salamence @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 156 Atk / 252 SAtk / 100 Spe
Rash Nature
- Draco Meteor / Hydro Pump
- Aerial Ace
- Fire Blast
- Earthkquake / Steel Wing

We already have a good attack. Thinking about SubCube, i don't know if we need DM. Dragon type this gen has one immunity. With hydro pump we can hit hippowdon, gliscor, landrobros. Steel wing can be funny to get a free kill against a fairy. A little aegislash.

Dunno. Physical Sylveon (which I use) walls it pretty well.
252 Atk Salamence Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Sylveon: 162-192 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Besides this, I think GW Salamence is pretty useless. Many of you talk about revenge killing Mega Venu and stuff like that, all things that Salamence already outspeeds, so I don't see the point of loosing Moxie, which in the chance of revenge killing those things would be an easy +1.

 

[Aaron's Aron]

Ugh, people just see Gale Wings Salamence and think: COOL GALE WINGS! In my genuine opinion, Gale Wings Salamence is one of the worst yet. It can't pull off a Defensive set of Defog + Roost because it loses Intimidate, Aerial Ace is piss weak, and then you've got idk priority Tailwind? It may be bulkier than Talonflame, but it is far different. I really think this is a waste of potential and Gale Wings is not going to help it at all. Salamence is bulky, but not that bulky without investment. A quick Defog may be nice, but I'd rather stick to Mandibuzz for Defog + Roost.

Honestly, I was thinking the same thing... While it is kinda cool, it isn't great.

 

[TheInsanity]

Seriously, why did you guys voted for this thing? Magic Bounce Musharna would be a beast, and Snow Warning Kyurem would make Blizzard the most spammed move ever. I just don't see the point here.

In this thread we trying to give a usefull ability to mon that has low usage. U never see in this thread "adaptibily keldeo" or "regenerator ferrothorn" , because:

1 they are already good
2 they should be uber, or suspected

Snow warning kyurem would be directly uber.
Magic bounce musharna totally kill stacking spikes teams.

I don't see the point to discuss about one of this mon for a week: everyone would says "yes, he is better now"

With GW Mence users can discuss more and more on which ability is better, we can try new sets and new role in the team.

 

[Gary]

No offense but I really don't like this theorymon. Are we that desperate to give Mence some sort of slight niche over the other Dragons to a point where we're giving it an ability that would allow it to spam a priority 60 BP weak as fuck Flying move? No, don't even tell me that a bulky Defog set would be good. Why in the right mind would you ever want to use Defog Mence over Latios, Latias, Zapdos, or Mandibuzz? It doesn't have nearly as much useful resistances as the Lati twins or Zapdos, nor does it have the insane amount of bulk or defensive utility that Mandibuzz has. Priority Defog could have potential clutch moments I guess, but is it really THAT worth using over the other amazing defoggers in the tier that have other useful niches outside of just using Defog?

Joim is working on it, i will let you know as soon as the new ladder is up.

Here is a set that could be great:

Salamence @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Aerial Ace
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast

While not as good at wallbreaking as it was in 5th gen, this set is still very hard to wall for offensive and balanced teams, and has the added benefit of strong priority in the form of Aerial Ace, which goes a long way in fixing Salamence's problems against offensive teams, where Pokemon such as Keldeo, Gengar, Greninja, Deoxys-S, and Scolipede can all be forced out and dealt with by Salamence. This set is not easy to wall without SpD Hippo, Physically defensive Clefable, physically defensive Sylveon, or Chansey, and its strong priority gives it a lot of utility against offensive teams. Advantages over Talonflame? Way more power, which means that it's walled by way less Pokemon, and no recoil on its STAB moves and only 2x SR weakness, meaning it's way less suicidal and requires less support. The EV spread could use some fixing, but you want Aerial Ace and Draco Meteor to be as strong as possible.

Not sure about defensive sets, will think about it a bit more and maybe post later...

Also, Defog + Gale Wings is legal here, dw.

First off, a few of the Pokemon you listed aren't OHKOed by Aerial Ace without some significant residual damage.

252+ Atk Life Orb Salamence Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 200-238 (69.9 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Salamence Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 157-187 (65.1 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Also, I'm a bit confused with your EV spread. If the goal of this set is to not be a complete joke against offensive teams, why are you letting it get outrun by basically anything that doesn't give a single fuck about Aerial Ace? Many Pokemon such as Excadrill, Gyarados, Mega Tyranitar, Bisharp, Kyurem-B, Landorus-T, and Dragonite outspeed it and destroy it, and most of them are very commonly seen on offensive teams.


While Salamence has more "overall" power than Talonflame with its other moves, Talon's Brave Bird is still the much better option when it comes to reliably revenge killing Pokemon on offensive teams.


252+ Atk Choice Band Salamence Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 181-214 (75.1 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 256-303 (106.2 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It's not even a competition. Talonflame is meant to function as a revenge killer, while your set seems to be geared more towards wallbreaking. Offensive teams are still a thorn in Mence's side because there are still a lot of Pokemon on offense that gives zero shits about a piss weak move. Talonflame's brute force still makes it more of a hassle for offensive teams because it's able to overwhelm them with nuking Brave Birds, Flare Blitz, or U-turning into something else. It doesn't need anything else to be dangerous. Talon also has the advantage of having very high Speed, which keeps it from having to spam Brave Bird all the time. All in all, it would still not be a better tool against offensive teams than Talonflame.

Gale Wings Aerial Ace could also be a nice weapon on DD sets, to bypass opposing priority from the likes of Talonflame, Azumarill, Scizor, and Thundurus, provided they are weakened enough to get KOed from Aerial Ace.

Last but not least, with the exception of Talonflame, all of these Pokemon need to be HEAVILY weakened if you want the DD set to be able to bypass them, especially the latter two.

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Salamence Aerial Ace vs. 248 HP / 136 Def Mega Scizor: 146-173 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Salamence Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 144-170 (48 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

And giving up valuable coverage just to hit Talonflame and a few other goons a tiny bit harder isn't really worth being walled by Steel-types like Skarmory or Heatran. DD Mence would still be pretty garbage.

All in all, Gale Wings really doesn't do much for Mence outside of just giving it something to pick off very frail Pokemon and a very select few Pokemon on offense. I would go as far to say that in most instances it other abilities would still be superior. Intimidate gives it a few set up opportunities if you're balsy enough to use Mence in OU, while Moxie lets it clean up easier if you manage to get rid of every revenge killer. I know that we're trying to be a bit creative here, but I don't see how Gale Wings Mence is better then just giving it fucking Brave Bird, which would at least give it a very powerful secondary STAB move to spam on Scarf or DD sets. Or just go all out and give it Aerilate ffs.

I just feel like some of these theorymons have been pretty subpar overall. Like Electric/Dark Luxray I almost thought it was some kind of joke or something. How would a simple retyping make something as shitty as Luxray OU viable? Isn't the goal of this thread to make something a lot more OU viable, not just more viable in general? Do more stuff like Ghost/Fairy Mismagius or Tough Claws Drapion, at least those things have a lot more potential then a shitty Electric-type that finally gets to have a STAB Crunch.

I don't mean to derail this thread, but I'm just so confused as to how something like Gale Wings Mence is being theorymoned over a million other better possibilities.

 

[alexwolf]

People, if you can't stay on topic don't post. This thread is not a place to bitch about bad theorymons, it's a thread to talk about what the theorymon that is being discussed can do in OU. Don't make me start handling infractions.

Also, Gary, sometimes we manage to go with some good theorymons and sometimes not, it's just how it goes, and we should make the best out of it each time. Will answer to the rest of your post later.

 

[Magma]

I tend to agree with most of the things said about Gale Wings Salamence so far. Defensive Defog sets are outclassed by Mandibuzz, Dragon Dance sets are outclassed by Dragonite, and stall-breaker sets are outclassed by original Salamence.

The only thing that Gale Wings remotely makes viable is an offensive Defog set:

Salamence @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 HP / 58 Atk / 200 Def
Naughty Nature
- Tailwind
- Defog
- Outrage
- Fire Blast / Earthquake

Far from perfect (and maybe even gimmicky), but still a nice addition for offensive teams. Max HP and some Def EVs keep most priority attacks from OHKOing after SR, allowing GW Mence to either remove hazards or set up a Tailwind for a teammate (or itself) to revenge opposing sweepers. At the very least, this gives Salamence a decent little niche in OU, since it's outperformed on all of it's other roles.

But still, after giving this more thought and going over some of the discussion, I would change my vote. alexwolf , how would you feel about adding short discussion sessions before each voting process, or requiring voters to post a quick description of why they selected their theorymon? ... If you think that these options will just end up eating away too much time, you could put a small team together of users with badges to help you manage the slate, which I'm sure is no easy task.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

While Salamence might appreciate having a relatively strong priority move to throw around, it would ultimately not be worth giving up its existing abilities to do so and remain mostly outclassed by a slew of other Pokemon.

In an offensive role, Salamence suffers from some serious competition from Dragonite in regards to being a Dragon with a priority attack. Extreme Speed isn't that much weaker than a STAB Aerial Ace and it can help avoid other priority attacks, such as Talonflame's Brave bird while also hitting Thundurus neutrally. Dragonite also gets to keep its ability in Multiscale while Salamence technically does not have an ability at all to differentiate itself from Dragonite. Salamence's biggest advantages over Dragonite are its Speed and Moxie to make it better offensively in some ways, and a priority move is redundant with the former advantage and you no longer have Moxie to utilize. Unlike other priority users in general, Salamence's only boosting move raises speed, so it can't sweep with a priority attack at only +1 and it is slightly unnecessary too. Wallbreakers would have some problems fitting Aerial Ace onto its movesets, with 4 of Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Outrage, Hydro Pump, and Earthquake breaking down walls while Intimidate softens the blows from these walls immensely to get out of some possible KOs and Moxie makes its job easier to break walls. Putting Aerial Ace on there means either heavy investment in attack to make it worthwhile or missing out on a potential wall while still being unable to address the main reason for this set's current difficulty in fairies.

Defensive Salamence suffers from a lack of Intimidate, meaning it becomes a lot easier to KO. Defensive Salamence isn't great to begin with due to a Stealth Rock weakness, but Gale Wings doesn't help much because it doesn't actually cripple the opponent at all. Priority Roost is cool but that doesn't mean Salamence is taking an Ice attack, and the opponent is probably not taking any extra damage during that period of time. Priority Defog isn't very helpful since there are plenty of good Defog users already, especially in the defensive spectrum, with Zapdos and Mandibuzz having better defenses and typings. Offensive Defog sets would wade a lot of competition from Latios, who has arguably more dangerous moves (Draco Meteor > Outrage for something like this) and lacks the Stealth Rock weakness. Finally, Tailwind is useless for a defensive team and its really never been a good strategy to begin with. The only merit I can see in a defensive Salamence in the first place is with Wish and Intimidate, which Gale Wings makes impossible.

I just don't see it really having a niche.

 

[InfinityX000]

As has been said, the Defog + Roost set is already outclassed by Mandibuzz, who has a better typing for the role, much greater bulk and even better offensive capability because of Foul Play. Mandi can tank +2 hits from things like Mega Pinsir and KO back with Foul Play, whereas max Def Mence gets KO'd and can't really do anything to stop the threats either.

Probably the only real thing that comes of Gale Wings for Mence is having a priority move for his DD set, but Dragonite already has that + Multiscale which helps him set up so he's pretty much outclassed in that department too, so the ability in general seems a bit limited and kind of gimmicky for him tbh, and he'd probably even rather his other existing abilities like Moxie or Intimidate.

Well...
I agree that the defog/roost thing is better for Mandibuzz, but GWMence can do tough things. For example, prio recovery and tailwind with access to a great offensive moveset.
And I did some calcs:
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Salamence: 226-267 (68.2 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Salamence: 177-208 (53.4 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So dude, u can always use Fire Blast while pinsir is SDing.
0 SpA Salamence Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 188-222 (69.1 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Salamence Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 146-174 (53.6 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
SO...
here's what it would look like
Turn 1:
SD, then your Fire Blast
Turn 2:
a. Your Aerial Ace, they never get to Return
b. They Quick Attack, not killing you, then you Aerial Ace.
So, first off, it might be used as more as a get tailwind, then do as much damage as possible, so stop comparing it to Dnite, which is better as a full on attacker. Second off, it is GOOD. Not OP, but good.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

Do you really need a fast Tailwind? Is Salamence so bothered by Taunt-users that it can't afford to set up Tailwind without priority? And is Tailwind really worth a slot that could be filled by Dragon Dance?

We're really grasping at straws here.

People, if you can't stay on topic don't post. This thread is not a place to bitch about bad theorymons, it's a thread to talk about what the theorymon that is being discussed can do in OU. Don't make me start handling infractions.

Also, Gary, sometimes we manage to go with some good theorymons and sometimes not, it's just how it goes

If this many people are complaining about such an obviously inferior choice, why is the answer a warning for them to stop instead of, perhaps, conceding that it's a bad mon (as you yourself are even seeming to admit) and moving on to a new bunch that might make for actual positive discussion?

If you're not willing to allow people to be critical of bad theorymons (note: criticizing is not "bitching"), then discussion will just stop until the next round anyway. Might as well speed up the process and keep this thread productive.

 

[DrCalder]

I agree with the fact that, even if GW Mence is by no means bad, It's not really an improvement to a Pokémon which is already decent. Sure, GW grants him a pretty cool niche, but a relatively situational one, especially when this one is better suited for other mons like Mandibuzz / Talonflame. The rest has been pretty well said by the others here.

 

[-Flygon-]

If this many people are complaining about such an obviously inferior choice, why is the answer a warning for them to stop instead of, perhaps, conceding that it's a bad mon (as you yourself are even seeming to admit) and moving on to a new bunch that might make for actual positive discussion?

If you're not willing to allow people to be critical of bad theorymons (note: criticizing is not "bitching"), then discussion will just stop until the next round anyway. Might as well speed up the process and keep this thread productive.

I completely agree, it'd be beneficial for everyone to just move on. No more bickering or raging, and we get a new bunch to discuss, it's really the better option. Just my opinion, but I'm sure that others agree.

 

[Valmanway]

As much as I hate this theorymon, I can't say he's completely useless. I see Salamence as a jack-of-all-trades kind of Pokemon with Gale Wings, being a bit unpredictable with his set. Do you expect a Defog/Tailwind supportive set? Do you expect a Roost defensive set? Do you expect an Aerial Ace offensive set? In 4th gen, Salamence was once feared due to his unpredictability, not so much each individual set specifically, so I can appreciate a surprise here and there. But in the end, he's just another jack-of-all-trades, master of none kind of deal. As stated by many others, Talonflame easily beats him as a revenge killer, Mandibuzz and Latios beat him as a Defogger, and Whimsicott and Tornadus beat him as a Tailwinder. The only justification I can see with him is surprise factor, but once that wild card is played, he's damn well near dead weight compared to his competition.

 

[-Flygon-]

As much as I hate this theorymon, I can't say he's completely useless. I see Salamence as a jack-of-all-trades kind of Pokemon with Gale Wings, being a bit unpredictable with his set. Do you expect a Defog/Tailwind supportive set? Do you expect a Roost defensive set? Do you expect an Aerial Ace offensive set? In 4th gen, Salamence was once feared due to his unpredictability, not so much each individual set specifically, so I can appreciate a surprise here and there. But in the end, he's just another jack-of-all-trades, master of none kind of deal. As stated by many others, Talonflame easily beats him as a revenge killer, Mandibuzz and Latios beat him as a Defogger, and Whimsicott and Tornadus beat him as a Tailwinder. The only justification I can see with him is surprise factor, but once that wild card is played, he's damn well near dead weight compared to his competition.

Hmm... I see what you mean. He is pretty useless other than for a surprise factor, just due to the fact that his Flying type movepool is terrible. I don't have anything against it, but I believe that it would just be a waste of a good ability. I feel bad for Mence, being overshadowed all of the time, even Flygon has a niche above other dragons, so I can see why any ability would be slapped on to try to help.

 

[Pipotchi]

I feel like it would make more sense to explain why not to pick theorymons before the voting is over...

Gale Wings improves Salamence's other abilities as mentioned above. Having 3 great abilities means you will not know what type of salamence is switching in, not to mention that Gale Wings can be used both offensively and defensively. Playing incorrectly could mean your team gets swept, because salamence with a moxie boost is still incredibly strong even if outclassed. Of course it will be difficult to see this in the theorymon testing as everyone will be trying out gale wings and there will be less use of the other two abilities.
Salamence cant be so easily ohkod by priority ice shard anymore, which is good- dragon claw followed by aerial ace will 2hko mamoswine with a life orb, which seems like the best hold item when having access to priority roost. Priority aerial ace and roost allows for life orb and adamant nature, which means dragon claw hits really hard, and the 1-2 of dragon claw->aerial ace is an issue for anyone attempting to revenge kill Salamence. I would use something like this:

Salamence @ Life Orb
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Aerial Ace
- Roost
- Dragon Claw
- Fire Blast/Earthquake

Fire Blast still ohkos stuff with a 4x weakness even with an adamant nature, while HP is maxed to make the most of the speed bypass and roost. Pokemon like sylveon cant risk switching into salamence, fearing the 2hko from aerial ace. Azumarill also gets 2hkod after stealth rock, without being able to hit an aqua jet.
Probably wouldn't use priority tailwind since it already exists, but priority defog seems like an interesting set.

 

[Seiterman]

Chou Toshio suggested this one? I'd love to hear his thoughts on it, as I don't believe he's posted in this thread as of late.

To be perfectly honest, of the 4 slated theorymon for the last round, this is the only one I didn't want to discuss. Here we are though, so I'll give it an earnest shot.

Gale Wings, realistically, would be a niche or gimmick option for most Salamence. Bulky/Support sets would rather have Intimidate, as without it his bulk is greatly diminished. Offensive sets would still either use Intimidate for more switch-in opportunities or Moxie to help get the ball rolling on cleanup/sweeping. Gale Wings only benefits Aerial Ace, Defog and Tailwind (and Fly, I guess.)

Aerial Ace is roughly on-par with Scizor's Bullet Punch, having the same base power (after Technician and STAB,) with the 5 point difference in each Pokemon's base Attack giving Salamence a slight edge in power. It's a far cry from Talonflame's Brave Bird or Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack, but it's certainly usable priority.

Defog and Tailwind are both usable support options, but Salamence really wants the bulk Intimidate provides, and better users of both support moves exist regardless. Priority Defog could come in handy here and there, but I think in most cases it's more important to be able to do it more than once while providing other support.

I don't think GW Salamence would impact the OU metagame in a particularly meaningful way. Maybe he could help make Flying-spam teams more potent, but other than that his uses may be niche.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Aerial Ace is actually slightly stronger than Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack (and significantly stronger if Salamence uses a boosting item), for what it's worth.

Actually, this would be really amazing if it got Swords Dance - probably on level with Mega Pinsir, possibly even better due to the more powerful priority and good secondary STAB. But Dragon Dance really doesn't cut it for a priority based sweeper.

 

[ethan06]

Aerial Ace is actually slightly stronger than Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack (and significantly stronger if Salamence uses a boosting item), for what it's worth.

Actually, this would be really amazing if it got Swords Dance - probably on level with Mega Pinsir, possibly even better due to the more powerful priority and good secondary STAB. But Dragon Dance really doesn't cut it for a priority based sweeper.

Priority can still be useful on a speed-boosting sweeper to deal with opposing priority - see Espeed DDNite. Not to mention you're still boosting the power of said priority, thereby making it more usable. It's a good and legitimate idea, but I still think Salamence will suffer due to his 4MSS and relative lack of physical coverage, even with the addition of Aerial Ace. He still has to pick between getting walled by Skarmory or Heatran, or forgoing Dragon STAB.

Salamence @ Life Orb
Adamant
Gale Wings
252 Atk/252 Spd/4 HP
-Dragon Dance
-Aerial Ace
-Dragon Claw/Earthquake/Fire Blast
-Dragon Claw/Earthquake/Fire Blast

 

[Pipotchi]

Can we talk about Fly's viability? Its a 90 damage priority move which is pretty damaging. Usually 2-turn moves are very much frowned upon because they require you to take a hit as Jirachi or Trevenant or something, and then the opponent can switch out into a counter- but with this, you are pretty much guaranteed to dodge a turn of damage. This would be potent with Toxic damage stacking on them in particular, allowing you to basically use a "protect" which deals damage the turn afterwards.

 

[aVocado]

I don't think Fly works like that.

Turn 1: you fly up
Turn 2: you hit target, target then hits you

Not sure but I think that's how it works.

 

[NeonNinja96]

Can we talk about Fly's viability? Its a 90 damage priority move which is pretty damaging. Usually 2-turn moves are very much frowned upon because they require you to take a hit as Jirachi or Trevenant or something, and then the opponent can switch out into a counter- but with this, you are pretty much guaranteed to dodge a turn of damage. This would be potent with Toxic damage stacking on them in particular, allowing you to basically use a "protect" which deals damage the turn afterwards.

Very intriguing, but there is still the fact that an opponent can switch in a flying resist.

 

[Valmanway]

Can we talk about Fly's viability? Its a 90 damage priority move which is pretty damaging. Usually 2-turn moves are very much frowned upon because they require you to take a hit as Jirachi or Trevenant or something, and then the opponent can switch out into a counter- but with this, you are pretty much guaranteed to dodge a turn of damage. This would be potent with Toxic damage stacking on them in particular, allowing you to basically use a "protect" which deals damage the turn afterwards.

I can actually see Protect/Fly doing rather well at stalling. It'd be like a guaranteed double-Protect, but Salamence isn't really built for stalling like that. Toxic susceptibility means trouble when attempting to stall, and with Pokemon like Skarmory and Gliscor having Toxic immunity, Salamence would once again be outclassed in that role.

 

[Magma]

Do you really need a fast Tailwind? Is Salamence so bothered by Taunt-users that it can't afford to set up Tailwind without priority? And is Tailwind really worth a slot that could be filled by Dragon Dance?

It's not for opposing Taunt-users, it's for opposing sweepers who will most likely be faster than Salamence. Offensive teams rely on revenging (by either Speed, Priority, or Sashes) for "defense" and GW Salamence makes this job easier for teammates by their boosting speed and/or keeping their sashes intact.

We're really grasping at straws here.

I agree 100%. This little niche isn't worth wasting a theorymon on (especially on a Pokemon with as much potential as Salamence), I just felt it was necessary to explain where my head was at when I made my misguided vote. Truthfully, I kind of picked it by default because:

• Snow Warning Kyurem is pretty useless. (It has great flavor, but other than anti-weather, I just don't see what it does. BlizzSpam is far from viable... it was bad last generation and even worse now that Blizzard has 110 BP.)
• I'm not a fan of Baton Pass (and wasn't looking to buff it with Musharna.)
• I didn't want to vote for my suggestion.