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Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)
- Thread starter alexwolf
- Start date
- Status
Gourgeist-Super @ Leftovers
Flash Fire / Impish
252 HP / 252 Def / 6 Spd
Rock Slide
Leech Seed
Substitute
Phantom Force / Seed Bomb
Basically says fuck you to Charizard now, unless Mega Charizard Y starts carrying Air Slash (lulz)
Flash Fire / Impish
252 HP / 252 Def / 6 Spd
Rock Slide
Leech Seed
Substitute
Phantom Force / Seed Bomb
Basically says fuck you to Charizard now, unless Mega Charizard Y starts carrying Air Slash (lulz)
Alas, if only this thing had its offensive stats swapped. Oh well, working with what we got...
Rock Slide is pretty much mandatory on this thing if it wants to do much of anything to the stuff it's supposed to wall, aka Charizards. Flash Fire Gourgeist would be the only legitimate reason YZard would run Air Slash, which ladder noobs already do with unrelenting frequency, while XZard can overwhelm Gourgeist if it has DD + Roost. So it only situationally stops the Charizards; anything else that would run a Fire move probably already has other options to hurt it (Talonflame's Brave Bird, Heatran's Toxic, Volcarona's Bug Buzz). Not to mention the severe 4MSS it already has, which is one of the primary reasons Gourgeist sees so little use. What do you choose from Seed Bomb, Shadow Sneak, Leech Seed, Will-O-Wisp, Rock Slide (both crucial), Phantom Force, Substitute, and Pain Split? You can't even use Fire moves well with it. No matter the combination, it's still looking pretty mediocre. In terms of movepool options, Trevenant truly took the cake.
And if I wanted to use a Rotom-W switch-in with a burn immunity, Lum Trevenant still exists, and it can at least heal itself reliably. I mean, we already had a Dragon / Fairy Cloud Nine Altaria to handle Charizards, so what do we discuss with this that hasn't already been said?
Edit:
Gourgeist is realistically switching into a Dragon Dance, and from there DD + Roost XZard can pressure Gourgeist back.
While it is still a nice concept, Flash Fire likely isn't enough to fix up Gourgeist's several flaws: 4MSS, low offensive presence, and lack of reliable recovery. Oh and it still has 4 (extremely common) weaknesses out of 5 from its ability change, as opposed to Mega Venusaur's 4 to 2.
Rock Slide is pretty much mandatory on this thing if it wants to do much of anything to the stuff it's supposed to wall, aka Charizards. Flash Fire Gourgeist would be the only legitimate reason YZard would run Air Slash, which ladder noobs already do with unrelenting frequency, while XZard can overwhelm Gourgeist if it has DD + Roost. So it only situationally stops the Charizards; anything else that would run a Fire move probably already has other options to hurt it (Talonflame's Brave Bird, Heatran's Toxic, Volcarona's Bug Buzz). Not to mention the severe 4MSS it already has, which is one of the primary reasons Gourgeist sees so little use. What do you choose from Seed Bomb, Shadow Sneak, Leech Seed, Will-O-Wisp, Rock Slide (both crucial), Phantom Force, Substitute, and Pain Split? You can't even use Fire moves well with it. No matter the combination, it's still looking pretty mediocre. In terms of movepool options, Trevenant truly took the cake.
And if I wanted to use a Rotom-W switch-in with a burn immunity, Lum Trevenant still exists, and it can at least heal itself reliably. I mean, we already had a Dragon / Fairy Cloud Nine Altaria to handle Charizards, so what do we discuss with this that hasn't already been said?
Edit:
Gourgeist is realistically switching into a Dragon Dance, and from there DD + Roost XZard can pressure Gourgeist back.
You calced Supersize Gourgeist, which means it is slower than Heatran which can Toxic before the Sub. Regular and Small Gourgeist can naturally outspeed, but this jeopardizes the XZard matchup even more.
While it is still a nice concept, Flash Fire likely isn't enough to fix up Gourgeist's several flaws: 4MSS, low offensive presence, and lack of reliable recovery. Oh and it still has 4 (extremely common) weaknesses out of 5 from its ability change, as opposed to Mega Venusaur's 4 to 2.
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4 Atk Gourgeist-Super Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 100-118 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 108-127 (28.8 - 33.9%) -- 98.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
subseed with flash fire should be enough to take out things
like...wtf is heatran going to to do gourgeist with a sub up? hit it with HP ice?
252+ SpA Heatran Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 182-216 (48.6 - 57.7%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
well, it can but do remember, only offensive heatran's run HP Ice so unless you know it's offensive heatran, you should be okay
252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 68-81 (18.1 - 21.6%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 108-127 (28.8 - 33.9%) -- 98.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
subseed with flash fire should be enough to take out things
like...wtf is heatran going to to do gourgeist with a sub up? hit it with HP ice?
252+ SpA Heatran Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 182-216 (48.6 - 57.7%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
well, it can but do remember, only offensive heatran's run HP Ice so unless you know it's offensive heatran, you should be okay
252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 68-81 (18.1 - 21.6%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
Eh, I thought about it some and I'd have to agree that the spooky pumpkin, even with Flash Fire, is a bit underwhelming. It's probably gonna be the Empoleon of this month, being underwhelming despite a decent buff. The thing can't even check Mega Charizard X because, well...
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 175-207 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Gourgeist-Super Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 100-118 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
That's just Dragon Claw. If it carries Outrage, Gourgeist is easily 2HKO'd after one boost, and even if Zard X doesn't have Outrage, it can still set up on it by alternating between Dragon Dance and Roost. As for Zard Y, it finally gives it an excuse to use Air Slash but even then Gourgeist still handles Zard Y better than it does Zard X.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gourgeist-Super: 248-294 (66.3 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Gourgeist-Super Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 268-316 (89.9 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Even then, there's still the danger of "which Mega Charizard is it" so all we've got here is another shaky Charizard check, especially since Gourgeist can only be physically or specially defensive at one time.
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 175-207 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Gourgeist-Super Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 100-118 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
That's just Dragon Claw. If it carries Outrage, Gourgeist is easily 2HKO'd after one boost, and even if Zard X doesn't have Outrage, it can still set up on it by alternating between Dragon Dance and Roost. As for Zard Y, it finally gives it an excuse to use Air Slash but even then Gourgeist still handles Zard Y better than it does Zard X.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gourgeist-Super: 248-294 (66.3 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Gourgeist-Super Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 268-316 (89.9 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Even then, there's still the danger of "which Mega Charizard is it" so all we've got here is another shaky Charizard check, especially since Gourgeist can only be physically or specially defensive at one time.
It's too bad it doesn't learn infestation.
This is a long shot, but what do you think of using trick or treat so you can spam shadow force/shadow sneak
Something like
Gourgeist XL @ leftovers
Impish
252 HP/252 def/ 4 attack
- leech seed
- protect/substitute
- trick or treat/will o wisp
- shadow force/shadow sneak
This is a long shot, but what do you think of using trick or treat so you can spam shadow force/shadow sneak
Something like
Gourgeist XL @ leftovers
Impish
252 HP/252 def/ 4 attack
- leech seed
- protect/substitute
- trick or treat/will o wisp
- shadow force/shadow sneak
I think using Gourgeist to take on Charizard is misguided as several of the previous posts have indicated. Flash Fire helps Gourgeist against most Garchomp since it doesn't have to worry about Fire Blast anymore (mixed mega sets can still 2HKO with Draco Meteor though). It also provides a full stop to Rotom-W without having to worry about getting burned which is really nice. It also doesn't care about most Heatran and Entei. Flash Fire Gourgeist definitely is usable, just not for stopping Charizard which we have Altaria for anyway. I think average may be Gourgeist's best size since it outspeeds Belly Drum Azumarill and Heatran but is still slower than Rotom-W which allows it to Leech Seed the switch-in after Volt Switch.
Just want to say that Gourgeist usually can't stop heatran, as most heatran run toxic.
Yeah but running a smaller form allows you to outspeed min heatran and sub before it toxics then subseed it to death.
I'm very excited about this new immunity especially for trick room gourgeist as it helps it fill in a lot of weaknesses on OU trick room teams. (especially mega-mawile's)
IMO I personally think Flash Fire Gourgeist would be a lot better in UU due to Chandelure, Darmanitan and Arcanine being in the tier (As well as Entei). 3 of them barely dent FF Gourgeist with max Defense investment even with coverage. Chandelure would still pose a threat to Gour because of Ghost-STAB.
I can see Gourgeist as a good check for Rotom-W now. Most of them are running WoW, which is a good free switch in most the time. Through this, it can run a really good physical attacker only having to worry about intiminate really.
I fully agree with what Punchshroom said above. It really is just forcing a few mons to take the longer route towards beating it, instead of spamming a move. It's not a significant game changer. The most it could possibly do is force Char-Y to run Air Slash. But it probably wouldn't even see enough usage to force that change. And as previously stated above, we already have Altaria who takes on both megas reliably.
Here's a question: with the boost to Fire attacks that Flash Fire grants to Gourgeist, how much more viable does Fire-type coverage become? Fire Blast is already used as a gimmick on Gourgeist to beat Ferrothorn, Scizor and Skarmory, among others; perhaps it would give it some niche way to hit Pokémon such as Mega Pinsir and the above threats just a little harder after forcing out something like Rotom or Heatran (or Charizard).
252 SpA Gourgeist-Super Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 256-304 (72.7 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Flash Fire Gourgeist-Super Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 384-452 (109 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Gourgeist-Super Flame Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 112-132 (31.8 - 37.5%) -- 86.8% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Flash Fire Gourgeist-Super Flame Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 164-196 (46.5 - 55.6%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Flash Fire Gourgeist-Super Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 236-278 (86.7 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 312-368 (83.4 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Of course, when it's implemented on the theorymon ladder everyone will expect it and keep their Fire-weaks well clear, so it's probably not that useful, but still...
Here's another point of discussion: Gourgeist-S. While it's only really used as a SubSeeder/spinblocker hybrid thanks to the added speed, what kind of utility would Flash Fire grant it? In terms of the ladder, what kinds of Pokémon would Gourgeist-S be able to set up on more effectively than Gourgeist-H could (if any)?
252 SpA Gourgeist-Super Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 256-304 (72.7 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Flash Fire Gourgeist-Super Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 384-452 (109 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Gourgeist-Super Flame Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 112-132 (31.8 - 37.5%) -- 86.8% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Flash Fire Gourgeist-Super Flame Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 164-196 (46.5 - 55.6%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Flash Fire Gourgeist-Super Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 236-278 (86.7 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 312-368 (83.4 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Of course, when it's implemented on the theorymon ladder everyone will expect it and keep their Fire-weaks well clear, so it's probably not that useful, but still...
Here's another point of discussion: Gourgeist-S. While it's only really used as a SubSeeder/spinblocker hybrid thanks to the added speed, what kind of utility would Flash Fire grant it? In terms of the ladder, what kinds of Pokémon would Gourgeist-S be able to set up on more effectively than Gourgeist-H could (if any)?
Heh. It's all hypotheticals anyway, and it's midnight so I'm tired, lol. The only one that particular blunder really comes into play is in the Mega Pinsir, which Gourgeist loses against anyway...
#asssuccessfullycovered
An OU Theorymon ladder discussion has been created, the link can be found in the OP.
As for Gourgeist, i think we are selling him a bit short. Walling Mega Charizard Y is no small feat, and even if Gourgeist becomes common and good enough to force Mega Charizard Y to carry Air Slash for the sole purpose of beating it, then this means that we succeeded in making Gourgeist a more prevalent force in the metagame. Not to mention that if Mega Charizard Y wants to have Air Slash it won't have Roost, making it way easier to wear down.
On the subject of Mega Charizard X... You are doing it wrong if you go with Rock Slide. You don't need Rock Slide. Disable is a much more effective way to force Mega Charizard X out, and has the potential to work nicely with Gourgeist's big amount of resistance / immunities. Just switch into Mega Charizard X as it uses Dragon Dance, then set up a Sub as he attacks, and the next turn disable Dragon Claw with Disable. Then set up another Sub as it switches out, and you can heal a decent amount of life with Pain Split. Substitute / Disable / Will-O-Wisp / (Pain Split / Leech Seed) seems as a good set in theory, and the amount of Pokemon it can force out with Flash Fire is surprisingly big. Assuming you force a switch and set up a Sub, here are some popular Pokemon that would want to switch into Gourgeist and you wall after Disable:
Not to mention that Gourgeist-S can take advantage of the SubDisable strategy even better with its decent Speed, and has the added advantage of being able to set up a Sub before Pokemon such as Rotom-W, Heatran, Aegislash, and Landorus-T can cripple it with Toxic.
So, i believe those would be Gourgeist's best sets:
Gourgeist-H @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def+ / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Substitute
- Disable
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split / Leech Seed
Gourgeist-S @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe+
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Disable
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split / Leech Seed
Honestly, with Flash Fire, i could see Gourgeist being a great OU Pokemon, possibly around B+ or A- in the viability ranking thread.
As for Gourgeist, i think we are selling him a bit short. Walling Mega Charizard Y is no small feat, and even if Gourgeist becomes common and good enough to force Mega Charizard Y to carry Air Slash for the sole purpose of beating it, then this means that we succeeded in making Gourgeist a more prevalent force in the metagame. Not to mention that if Mega Charizard Y wants to have Air Slash it won't have Roost, making it way easier to wear down.
On the subject of Mega Charizard X... You are doing it wrong if you go with Rock Slide. You don't need Rock Slide. Disable is a much more effective way to force Mega Charizard X out, and has the potential to work nicely with Gourgeist's big amount of resistance / immunities. Just switch into Mega Charizard X as it uses Dragon Dance, then set up a Sub as he attacks, and the next turn disable Dragon Claw with Disable. Then set up another Sub as it switches out, and you can heal a decent amount of life with Pain Split. Substitute / Disable / Will-O-Wisp / (Pain Split / Leech Seed) seems as a good set in theory, and the amount of Pokemon it can force out with Flash Fire is surprisingly big. Assuming you force a switch and set up a Sub, here are some popular Pokemon that would want to switch into Gourgeist and you wall after Disable:
- Choice Band Talonflame
- Shadow Ball Aegislash (assuming you have WoW to burn it)
- Thundurus
- Kyurem-B (but can't do anything back if it has Sub)
- Mega Venusaur (assuming no Hidden Power Fire + Sludge Bomb)
- Deoxys-D
- Deoxys-S
- Roar Heatran
- Landorus with both Sludge Wave and Psychic
- Nasty Plot Manaphy
- Gengar with Shadow Ball + Sludge Wave
- Latios
- Latias
- CM Clefable
- Conkeldurr
- Skarmory
- Greninja
- BU Talonflame
Not to mention that Gourgeist-S can take advantage of the SubDisable strategy even better with its decent Speed, and has the added advantage of being able to set up a Sub before Pokemon such as Rotom-W, Heatran, Aegislash, and Landorus-T can cripple it with Toxic.
So, i believe those would be Gourgeist's best sets:
Gourgeist-H @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def+ / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Substitute
- Disable
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split / Leech Seed
Gourgeist-S @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe+
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Disable
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split / Leech Seed
Honestly, with Flash Fire, i could see Gourgeist being a great OU Pokemon, possibly around B+ or A- in the viability ranking thread.
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Except Cloud Nine Altaria already does this, and there is hardly anything YZard can do anything about it outside of Dragon Pulse, which is incredibly rare when compared to equally situational but stupidly common Air Slash. I know this is theorymon, but when applied in battle, there are a good deal of YZards that already pack Air Slash and do not have to go out of their way to change their sets to adapt to the threat, when compared to Altaria.
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 175-207 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
When does Gourgeist get the opportunity to safely Sub after the Dance followed by Claw? It would be left at ~35% by the time it gets to Disable after its Sub (if Gourgeist lacks Pain Split, it is fucked at that point), so why not just Disable right away? Is it because XZard's greater speed makes it difficult to Disable the correct move? If that is the case, Substitute is indeed a nice way to bait the right attack....if Gourgeist presented a notable threat to XZard to begin with. The only real way Gourgeist is provoking XZard with your suggested moveset is Pain Split and Leech Seed, both of which are mitigated by Roost if Zard has it. Or Zard can just select another move to be Disabled and Claw away at you while the best you can do to retaliate is if you have both Leech Seed and Pain Split, but of course one would be hesitant in giving up Wisp. See, this is what I mean by Gourgeist having 4MSS.
I'm trying to come up with a list of Pokemon that can no longer respond to Gourgeist with Fire coverage / moves. So far all I can come up with are Heatran without Toxic, Fire Blast Mega Garchomp, ....um? There aren't a lot of Pokemon that run Fire coverage without running something else as well, most notably Ice.
You don't force out most of the Fire-types much better at all, only being able to do so situationally. You need to predict XZard well if you want to be able to force it out, and chances are you won't at all if it carries Roost. If Air Slash YZard wasn't already a thing due to how damn common it is, all Flash Fire Gourgeist does if not let Air Slash YZard users get laughed at. Heatran is only not a problem if Normal & Small Gourgeist is used, but they are substantially less bulky. Volcarona and Talonflame not locked into CB Flare Blitz still use this Gourgeist as setup bait.
Yeah see, the threats you mentioned Gourgeist could Substall / cripple? It kind of already does that if it could force a Pokemon out (stuff like Ground-types, Azumarill, Chansey and even Scizor come to mind), without any help from its ability whatsoever. All Flash Fire does for it is force out a marginally larger amount of Pokemon, but rarely will it contribute to the Substalling playstyle it already does. Gourgeist's biggest gripe as a SubSeeder is its 4MSS and its awkward stat distribution. Being a SubSeeder that can do stuff outside of just being super annoying is pretty nice, but it lacks the moveslots to pull off its role as effectively as it could have. Gourgeist-Super boasts some great physical bulk, but is outslowed by almost everything which would make Disabling stuff really tricky; Gourgeist-Small has the speed to utilize this strategy better, but good luck walling Charizard (and an assortment of stronger physical attackers) now, since base 55 HP is nice for SubSeeding but not for taking hits for the team.
Now I know this looks like Gourgeist can choose different forms to sway certain matchups, but really most of these matchups do not differ very much from each other. Look, the point is that a simple immunity against a type it still doesn't really fare well against (like Normal-types taking on Ghosts) is not about to make Gourgeist a "B+ or A-" Pokemon; I wouldn't be surprised if its Rank doesn't change. Whether Gourgeist works well for you or not, Flash Fire likely won't make it that much better competitively.
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Comparing Altaria to Gourgeist is like comparing apples to oranges. Both handle a lot of different threats, so just because they check or wall some similar stuff doesn't mean they compete for the same teamslot or can be directly compared. Not to mention these two support the team in different ways. As for Air Slash being common, i am talking only about the part of the ladder that you can call even remotely competitive, not the part that is filled with people that don't even know the basics of competitive battling. And any player that knows the basic stuff would never use Air Slash, so both Air Slash and Dragon Pulse are very situational, with the difference that Air Slash is only useful for Gourgeist, where Dragon Pulse also helps against Latios, Latias, Mega Charizard X, Dragonite, and of course Altaria.Punchshroom said:
~50% life lost from +1 Dragon Claw + 25% life lost from Sub = 25% life remaining with a Sub up. Next turn, you use Disable as Mega Char X goes for Dragon Claw again, and then you use Pain Split as it switches out. Of course, this is not a very reliable way to beat Mega Char X, but as long as you have a second check to it you should be fine. Also, after you Disable Dragon Claw, even if it has Roost, you can go to another Fire resist, such as Heatran (which has great synergy with Gourgeist btw) or Tyranitar, and let him deal with Mega Charizard X. As for Mega Charizard X choosing another move for you to Disable, doesn't every use of Disable override the last move disabled, or do i remember this wrong?Punchshroom said:
WoW Rotom-W, Mega Charizard Y (let's not pretend that Air Slash is relevant in a metagame where Gourgeist isn't a threat), Fire Blast Garchomp, Bulky Zard X (a common and great set), and Zapdos. But really, completely walling Rotom-W and Mega Charizard Y, two of the most common Pokemon in the metagame, is a big enough reason for something to become way more useful than it was before. Don't forget that the two Mega Charizard formes are two of the biggest reasons as to why Gourgeist is not so viable right now, as they can switch into it with little worries and easily force it out. Also, with Flash Fire, Sub + Disable works way better against Pokemon such as non-choiced all out attacking Talonflame, HP Fire Mega Venusaur, Fire Blast Tyranitar, Fire Blast Slowbro, and other Pokemon that use Fire coverage moves.Punchshroom said:
I may have exaggerated a bit Flash Fire's usefulness on Gourgeist, but you can't deny how useful being able to wall two very important and prevalent threats is (Rotom-W and Mega Char Y), and you can't deny that Air Slash has no place in a conversation between players who aren't complete scrubs. If we took into account stuff that players without any competitive knowledge used, we would be talking about how easy Mega Char Y is to wall, as Goodra sees so much use, but this clearly isn't the case.
I Believe that with the addition of Flash Fire, Gourgeist would be able to synergies with Mega-Mawile extremely well. With the two of them now covering each other's weaknesses near perfectly (Ghost still hitting Gourgeist), you could easily use them as a powerful core on a trick room team. Mega-Mawile is now one of the most powerful trick room sweepers, and Gourgeist can wall and wear down the majority of his counters (thanks to this great new ability), setting up Mawile for clean sweep. Gourgeist can also carry Trick Room him self if necessary, and with the right investments is no slouch offensively either.
Whoops, scratch Altaria, totally forgot its part Fairy typing gave it Dragon immunity. I was also under the impression that Flash Fire Gourgeist received votes due to being presumably good Charizard stops. And yes, I know Air Slash is not very competetively viable, I just dislike the idea of giving them a legit reason to run Air Slash :P. Carry on.
No, you have to wait for the 3 Disabled turns to be able to Disable another attack. You know what this means do you? This means that if XZard goes for Dragon Dance on the turn you Disable, you just gave it a free +2, meaning your backup check (ex: Tyranitar) can no longer respond to XZard, and your Leech Seed / Pain Split won't override XZard's Roost. Granted, Gourgeist + Heatran is one of the safest ways to scout for Earthquake XZard (Gourgeist beats EQ variants, Heatran beats Roost variants), though a Ground immune Pokemon as Heatran's partner can scout for EQ just fine, and (Toxic) Quagsire can stop any variant of XZard without all the Disable business.
I've used Lum Trevenant in the early days of XY, but the main problem is that it can't stop Rotom-W from Volt Switching away, and it is easily taken advantage of by a good number of threats (Gourgeist is no exception, especially given its inability to fight back). I even ran Rock Slide on Trevenant to decent success, but not enough to mitigate its number of flaws. I've also not seen a Heat Wave Zapdos that didn't run Hidden Power Ice as well, since its Ground immunity would be wasted if it cannot retaliate against Garchomp and Gliscor.
Indeed, being able to take on YZards without Air Slash and bulky XZard is nice, but those 2 problems are just the tip of the iceberg. Its other problems are its weaknesses to Flying, Ghost, Dark, and Ice. As you can see, nearly all the A and S Rank offensive threats have access to this type of coverage. Gourgeist may be relatively safe against a few threats such as Azumarill, Gyarados, Excadrill, Garchomp (only the Megas carry Fire Blast, and sometimes they don't), Ferrothorn, Hippowdon, and Chansey, plus Charizards and Heatran if Flash Fire, but everything else either hits it hard or just takes a huge dump on this thing, along with Taunt and Sub users. Lack of reliable recovery does not help at all either.
I also have exaggerated the influence on YZard that the hopeless ladder base have on it as well. Walling 2 top meta threats is nice and all, but yeah Gourgeist still has a lot of problems left unchecked. That said, sorry I bashed this theorymon as hard as I did, it didn't quite deserve that. (More irked at Gourgeist's stats than its ability)
Flash Fire Gourgeist seems like the kind of thing where it's a significant buff to the mon, but not in a way that's particularly game-changing (either for the metagame as a whole or Gourgeist.) More switch-in opportunities are appreciated on any mon, and the new ability gives Gourgeist a new niche as the only Grass-type that isn't weak or neutral to Fire-type attacks. This in itself lets it do the whole SubSeed thing on a larger range of targets.
That said, I don't think that giving it Flash Fire was ever meant to make Gourgeist a full-stop to Fire-types. There are obviously many that can still give Gourgeist a beating, namely Talonflame. Being able to switch-in on Fire-type moves (especially WoW and Choice-locked moves,) is still a huge boon though.
Like many Theorymon, this one acts as a buff to many defensive and Stall-centric teams. A SubSeeder that is immune to Fire-type moves can easily fit onto many of such teams, I'm sure.
One last thing, for people who're bringing up Altaria; I believe (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong,) that Gourgeist is the first in the new set of Theorymon. This means Flash Fire Gourgeist won't exist on the ladder at the same time as Fairy Altaria. Even if they did, I'd be hesitant to use another Theorymon as an example of why one Theorymon cannot do a specific job; it's my understanding that we're discussing the merits of these Pokemon being added into the game singularly.
That said, I don't think that giving it Flash Fire was ever meant to make Gourgeist a full-stop to Fire-types. There are obviously many that can still give Gourgeist a beating, namely Talonflame. Being able to switch-in on Fire-type moves (especially WoW and Choice-locked moves,) is still a huge boon though.
Like many Theorymon, this one acts as a buff to many defensive and Stall-centric teams. A SubSeeder that is immune to Fire-type moves can easily fit onto many of such teams, I'm sure.
One last thing, for people who're bringing up Altaria; I believe (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong,) that Gourgeist is the first in the new set of Theorymon. This means Flash Fire Gourgeist won't exist on the ladder at the same time as Fairy Altaria. Even if they did, I'd be hesitant to use another Theorymon as an example of why one Theorymon cannot do a specific job; it's my understanding that we're discussing the merits of these Pokemon being added into the game singularly.
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