just post that on alexwolf's page
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)
- Thread starter alexwolf
- Start date
- Status
sadly that would classify as a mindlessly offensive buff. 2hko azumarill with a resisted move isn't doing any favors showing how fair it is.
It is notable that running a Calm nature instead of a Bold Nature allows Milotic to escape the 2HKO of standard Rotom-W's Thunderbolt when burned. It offers more Defense to run Calm 252 HP/252 Def than Bold 252 HP/148 Def/104 SpD as well. This is significant considering that the most common Will-o-Wisp is probably coming from Rotom-W, letting you nab that Marvel Scale boost MUCH easier for tanking future hits.
Defensive
Milotic @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Recover
- Dragon Tail / Ice Beam
- Mirror Coat / Haze / Toxic
That's probably what I'd recommend. Mirror Coat is pretty awesome for nabbing a surprise KO on +0 Thundurus and Life Orb Gengar, who will likely come in on Milotic to scare it off. It also lets it KO Rotom-W, or (arguably even better yet) KO the switch-in as Rotom-W Volt Switches out. Venusaur, who otherwise walls the crap out of Milotic, is also not very fond of Mirror Coat.
I also would recommend Dragon Tail over Ice Beam for its utility considering the most common Dragon-types fear a Scald burn and the only relevant Grass-types (Venusaur and Ferrothorn) receive neutral damage from Ice Beam anyways. Haze can be used in the last slot if running Ice Beam to still keep Milotic from being setup bait. Toxic lets it take more of a stall role than a tank role.
This set pairs fantastically with Ferrothorn due to their type synergy. But beware of ridiculously powerful dual STABs, such as those coming from a Swords Dance Terrakion. It's also worth noting that while Water-types try to break through Ferrothorn with burns, Milotic actually both resists Scald and benefits from the burn, covering that weakness easily.
Will edit to include a Competitive set in a moment...
Edit:
Anti-Defog
Milotic @ Choice Scarf / Life Orb
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power Grass
- Haze / Recover
Huge pity this thing doesn't get Dazzling Gleam (WHY?! ITS SCALES ARE SHINY). Well, with the additional Fairy-type tacked on, Milotic now has many more switch in opportunities than before, along with a new resistance to common Fighting- and Dark-type priority. +2 SpA Milotic can OHKO Mandibuzz and 252/0 Zapdos with Ice Beam (which is used over Hydro Pump for its accuracy) after Stealth Rock damage, even when using Choice Scarf. Hydro Pump at +2 OHKOs even 252/252 Mega Scizor as well after Stealth Rock damage, and with the retyping Milotic doesn't fear a surprise U-Turn as much. Hidden Power Grass lets it hit Rotom-W and Manaphy with a clean 2HKO. The last slot can usually be filled with Recover to get rid of Life Orb recoil, but Haze is a relatively useful "oh shit" button on a Choice Scarf set, who doesn't really have any other useful offensive options. While its only target is Ferrothorn, really, Hidden Power Fire can be used as well, but Milotic becomes walled by Manaphy and Rotom-W. Running Leftovers and Dragon Tail over Life Orb and Hidden Power is also not a bad idea, as it lets Milotic bluff a defensive set to lead opposing teams to believe you're running Marvel Scale instead. 252 HP EVs can be run instead of Speed, if desired, to better convince the opponent you're defensive.
This set is very hit-or-miss (just like Hydro Pump!). If your opponent is smart enough to keep Defog away (as a +2 Milotic is going to cause arguably more damage than Stealth Rock and some Spikes), Milotic will likely be mistaken as dead weight. This isn't entirely true, as it has successfully done its job of preventing or delaying a Defog if used correctly. This thing obviously pairs well with hazard setters like Ferrothorn and Deoxys-D. Ferrothorn also has the bonus of having perfect type synergy with Milotic, as mentioned before.
Just don't view this thing as a sweeper. It's not. As long as it scares the opponent into not using Defog, it has served its purpose.
Defensive
Milotic @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Recover
- Dragon Tail / Ice Beam
- Mirror Coat / Haze / Toxic
That's probably what I'd recommend. Mirror Coat is pretty awesome for nabbing a surprise KO on +0 Thundurus and Life Orb Gengar, who will likely come in on Milotic to scare it off. It also lets it KO Rotom-W, or (arguably even better yet) KO the switch-in as Rotom-W Volt Switches out. Venusaur, who otherwise walls the crap out of Milotic, is also not very fond of Mirror Coat.
I also would recommend Dragon Tail over Ice Beam for its utility considering the most common Dragon-types fear a Scald burn and the only relevant Grass-types (Venusaur and Ferrothorn) receive neutral damage from Ice Beam anyways. Haze can be used in the last slot if running Ice Beam to still keep Milotic from being setup bait. Toxic lets it take more of a stall role than a tank role.
This set pairs fantastically with Ferrothorn due to their type synergy. But beware of ridiculously powerful dual STABs, such as those coming from a Swords Dance Terrakion. It's also worth noting that while Water-types try to break through Ferrothorn with burns, Milotic actually both resists Scald and benefits from the burn, covering that weakness easily.
Will edit to include a Competitive set in a moment...
Edit:
Anti-Defog
Milotic @ Choice Scarf / Life Orb
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power Grass
- Haze / Recover
Huge pity this thing doesn't get Dazzling Gleam (WHY?! ITS SCALES ARE SHINY). Well, with the additional Fairy-type tacked on, Milotic now has many more switch in opportunities than before, along with a new resistance to common Fighting- and Dark-type priority. +2 SpA Milotic can OHKO Mandibuzz and 252/0 Zapdos with Ice Beam (which is used over Hydro Pump for its accuracy) after Stealth Rock damage, even when using Choice Scarf. Hydro Pump at +2 OHKOs even 252/252 Mega Scizor as well after Stealth Rock damage, and with the retyping Milotic doesn't fear a surprise U-Turn as much. Hidden Power Grass lets it hit Rotom-W and Manaphy with a clean 2HKO. The last slot can usually be filled with Recover to get rid of Life Orb recoil, but Haze is a relatively useful "oh shit" button on a Choice Scarf set, who doesn't really have any other useful offensive options. While its only target is Ferrothorn, really, Hidden Power Fire can be used as well, but Milotic becomes walled by Manaphy and Rotom-W. Running Leftovers and Dragon Tail over Life Orb and Hidden Power is also not a bad idea, as it lets Milotic bluff a defensive set to lead opposing teams to believe you're running Marvel Scale instead. 252 HP EVs can be run instead of Speed, if desired, to better convince the opponent you're defensive.
This set is very hit-or-miss (just like Hydro Pump!). If your opponent is smart enough to keep Defog away (as a +2 Milotic is going to cause arguably more damage than Stealth Rock and some Spikes), Milotic will likely be mistaken as dead weight. This isn't entirely true, as it has successfully done its job of preventing or delaying a Defog if used correctly. This thing obviously pairs well with hazard setters like Ferrothorn and Deoxys-D. Ferrothorn also has the bonus of having perfect type synergy with Milotic, as mentioned before.
Just don't view this thing as a sweeper. It's not. As long as it scares the opponent into not using Defog, it has served its purpose.
Last edited:
While Milotic now has better defensive typing which makes it more viable in OU, it is unfortunately a boring Theorymon to discuss. Without Fairy STAB, it basically plays the same way as before; it just checks and counters more threats now. Its offensive movepool isn't really good enough to make use of Competitive.
Changing milotic's typing just gives it switch in possibilities against dragon types. It still plas the same way, especially since it doesn't have fairy stab. In fact it would run sort of a generic set of toxic, scald, recover, filler since as a fairy type that resists fairy its now obligated to wall Charizard X and talonflame.
Honestly it still can't abuse competitive because it has no speed or priority or special attacks beyond hydro pump, scald, and ice beam worth noting. It's also susceptible to every type of hazard including toxic spikes and doesn't really match up well against common defoggers.
Honestly it still can't abuse competitive because it has no speed or priority or special attacks beyond hydro pump, scald, and ice beam worth noting. It's also susceptible to every type of hazard including toxic spikes and doesn't really match up well against common defoggers.
Ridiculously good synergy with Ferrothorn and resistance to some common priority are the only things it gains on a Competitive set, really. I kind of agree with this sentiment, although I feel bad for alexwolf for all the "dis theorymon sux" posts in this thread. The retyping dramatically helps the defensive set, but how much more will it help the Competitive set? It's hard to say without testing it on PS!...
(I also began drooling while thinking about Water/Dragon Milotic, who can now abuse the crap out of Draco Meteor, which it would surely be able to learn... but alas, we are talking about Water/Fairy.)
Milotic can take advantage of Competitive just fine, especially considering how it can switch relatively easy into Latios, Latias, Mandibuzz, Skarmory, and Scizor. Hydro Pump + Ice Beam + HP Grass gives perfect neutral coverage, and at +2 Milotic is pretty hard to wall, while Recover gives longevity. Offensive Competitive Milotic is already viable, and with the Fairy typing it just gets way better.
I was going to say that an Offensive Competitive set still has many flaws even with the Fairy typing, but I'll just let your previous post do the talking for me.
Other than Lati@s, nothing really changes with the Fairy typing.
I was just mentioning against how many Defog users Milotic would be able to switch into, and you have to admit they are a lot. With the Fairy-typing, Milotic got some much needed switch-in chances against offensive Pokemon such as Latios, Latias, Azumarill, and Greninja, which makes it way more viable as an offensive Competitive user.
My fault for thinking about mandibuzz (who has fallen out of favor).
Also, its specialized in defense leaving it bulky enough to take a psyshock.
Still, its slow, susceptible to status, and is forced out by the most common pivot, namely rotom.
While it now has more switch ins, and the shield of obscurity, as most people expect marvel scale, I still think its not worth running as a special attacker, not as a Defog abuser as it allows the Defog mons to make an easy escape which other defog aniseed alleviate with pursuit or knock off
How does Fairy help against Azumarill?
Also, to preempt people from doing what I wanted to suggest before research: the Marill family, Mawile, and Dedenne are all Fairy-types that don't learn Dazzling Gleam, so we can't just pretend that Milo's Fairy-typing coming with Dazzling Gleam as a given, a la Draco Meteor for Dragons.
This new typing not only gives it way more switch in opportunities, but gives it great synergy with some of the tiers greatest physical walls. The one that jumps out the most is definitely Milotic and Ferrothorn, covering each others weaknesses perfectly. But also Gliscor and Landorus-T will be strong partners, with only grass slipping through.
I'm just curious, is there anything that was really walking all over Milotic before the re-type that it can now handle? I don't want to hear Dragons due to being immune (and really, seems too easy), but I would like to know if it is benefitting from walling some specific threats that It once could not, and is there anything that it once could wall but now can not?
As alexwolf pointed out, Milotic can now take on Conkeldurr, Keldeo, and Greninja. It also serves as a decent check to Mega Tyranitar without Stone Edge. The Dragons also do count. It now cannot wall Gengar with Sludge Bomb, but that is the only drawback I can think of. Milotic definitely is better defensively, and that is how it should be used (not an offensive Competitive set).
Milo in general has been hurt most by physical attacks, barring the odd Flame Orb Marvel Scale set. No, Fairy, doesn't help against Grass and Electric. But suddenly Milo can function as a stop to Fighting types, which on paper were neutral, but in practice loved walloping our poor girl; particularly Guts abusers, who love a good Scald.
In terms of things that could wall it that now can't, considering Milo's movepool hasn't changed, and said movepool has no Fairy-type moves, no dice. However, while Defoggers never walled Milo, they now are suddenly setup fodder for Competitive sets.
You must be joking. The Fairy typing makes it a totally different game when switching into Lati@s, and with Competitive and LO, it easy takes both down with Ice Beam. :|
Zapdos is just about the only Defogger that Milotic is scared to switch into now (Scizor's Bullet Punch is just not that intimidating to a bulky water, even when neutral), and even Zapdos will lose if it uses Defog instead of Thunderbolt on a healthy Milotic switch in. Yes that's the same before as now, but Competitive is more viable when it handles Lati@s' Dragon STAB a lot better.
This. Again, this is essentially a second Bisharp in the meta in terms of Defog-punishing, which is the closest thing we've got to spinblockers for Defog.
Moreover, unlike Bisharp, it has no crippling x4 weakness to Fighting and an Earthquake weakness. Handles Scizor and Skarmory better (Scald for the former gives a nice edge, and Skarm doesn't like +2 Special Attacks very much), and handles the Latis more reliably (Sucker Punch and Pursuit destroy them, yes, but clever enough mind games make it less of a guarantee than a +2 Ice Beam).
This is hardly to say that Bisharp is inferior as a mon, as they're applies and oranges beyond their Defog-punishing (Bisharp can boost otherwise and has brutal priority while Milo is naturally defensive and loves Recover), but this gives Milo a really fun niche.
One of the biggest problems with offensive Competitive Milotic is that you really compromise its bulk by investing in offense and using a Life Orb. Everyone keeps talking about how great it does against Latios with its new Fairy typing, but if you run an offensive variant of Milotic...
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Milotic: 208-246 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 211-250 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So if the Latios user predicts the Milotic switch in and goes for an attack, Milotic will not fare too well. Keep in mind that an offensive variant will probably want to invest in speed instead of HP to outrun key threats which compromises its bulk even further. To put things into perspective:
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 172-203 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Bisharp actually takes less damage than Milotic against Latios if they use the same baseline spread. Also, at least Bisharp threatens back with Sucker Punch which Milotic cannot do.
I'm not trying to bash Milotic. I think it can be a very good defensive Pokemon in OU as a Fairy type. I'm just saying that defensive with Marvel Scale and Lefties is the best way to go and leave the Defog punishing to Bisharp. If we want a real abuser of Competitive, then someone should come up with an idea to give Competitive to something that has the speed and movepool to actually be able to take advantage of Competitive. Milotic is not the answer.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Milotic: 208-246 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 211-250 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So if the Latios user predicts the Milotic switch in and goes for an attack, Milotic will not fare too well. Keep in mind that an offensive variant will probably want to invest in speed instead of HP to outrun key threats which compromises its bulk even further. To put things into perspective:
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 172-203 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Bisharp actually takes less damage than Milotic against Latios if they use the same baseline spread. Also, at least Bisharp threatens back with Sucker Punch which Milotic cannot do.
I'm not trying to bash Milotic. I think it can be a very good defensive Pokemon in OU as a Fairy type. I'm just saying that defensive with Marvel Scale and Lefties is the best way to go and leave the Defog punishing to Bisharp. If we want a real abuser of Competitive, then someone should come up with an idea to give Competitive to something that has the speed and movepool to actually be able to take advantage of Competitive. Milotic is not the answer.
Pity. Only specially defensive Milotic can handle Latios. Assault Vest Bisharp may be a good partner for Milotic specifically for that reason, maybe... Latios is really Milotic's only relevant loose end, no?
Hey guys, new here (well sorta)! Wanted to say this thread is a great idea! Wish somebody talk to gamefreak about this :)
Quick question, can anybody come up with a pokemon+(abilty/move/typing) example if i said Crobat/Gale Wings
OT: Milotic with Water/Fairy O.o Huge Wall with recovery(and take advantage of one of 2 great abilities). Azumarill for Offense and Milotic for Def!!!
Quick question, can anybody come up with a pokemon+(abilty/move/typing) example if i said Crobat/Gale Wings
OT: Milotic with Water/Fairy O.o Huge Wall with recovery(and take advantage of one of 2 great abilities). Azumarill for Offense and Milotic for Def!!!
Send any ideas to Alex via Personal Message.
The former two are physical attackers and get Play Rough instead, which tends to hurt really bad when it actually decides to hit its target.
As for my beautiful sea mistress, I'm still torn on what additional typing I'd like to see. Water/Fairy is great for the Dragon immunity, but that Poison Weakness, ouch. Suddenly, you can't power through Venusaur like you used to, and that really hurts. Water/Dragon on the other hand, yeah, sucks getting SE from Dragon moves, but now that you don't give a damn about Grass and Electric, Venusaur and Rotom can kick rocks.
Anywho, Water/Fairy is what got it, and another blessing is that sudden Fighting and Dark resistance. Suddenly you can stomach blows from the likes of Luke and Conk, and sucker punches do frag all, and that's awesome. This makes defog punishing all the more easy for offensive sets. However, Defog isn't the only stat dropper. There's things like moonblast and shadow ball that can suddenly give you a special attack boost, and you also don't give a damn about Intimidate. Powering through Skarmory and Mandibuzz is no joke, and offensive sets definitely have that going for them.
I still think that Milotic's BnB set is always gonna be the defensive one though. This new typing definitely gives her an edge over some of the other bulky waters out there.
A Wacan Berry can make Milotic a better switch in to its higher risk Defogger switch ins like Zapdos and Latios.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Wacan Berry Milotic: 96-114 (24.3 - 28.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Wacan Berry Milotic: 109-129 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
With max HP and a Calm nature you can always avoid the 2HKO from Zapdos and can give you breathing room in case +2 Ice Beam doesn't happen to OHKO Latios. And it also happens to be a perfect response to Mega Manectric.
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 60+ SpD Wacan Berry Milotic: 109-129 (27.7 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 0 SpA Milotic Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Manectric: 283-334 (100.7 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mega Manectric triggers Competitive and is OHKO always by +2 Hydro Pump. But should you miss, Wacan Berry will ensure Thunderbolt is a 3HKO. Invest more in SpD to factor in Stealth Rock.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Wacan Berry Milotic: 96-114 (24.3 - 28.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Wacan Berry Milotic: 109-129 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
With max HP and a Calm nature you can always avoid the 2HKO from Zapdos and can give you breathing room in case +2 Ice Beam doesn't happen to OHKO Latios. And it also happens to be a perfect response to Mega Manectric.
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 60+ SpD Wacan Berry Milotic: 109-129 (27.7 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 0 SpA Milotic Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Manectric: 283-334 (100.7 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mega Manectric triggers Competitive and is OHKO always by +2 Hydro Pump. But should you miss, Wacan Berry will ensure Thunderbolt is a 3HKO. Invest more in SpD to factor in Stealth Rock.
- Status