Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

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Ah, yeah, I can definitely attest to Kingdra's usefulness. Specs is just super strong, and rain teams usually don't have an answer for it outside of ferrothorn (even ferrothorn takes ~40% from specs draco meteors, which is nothing to sneeze at). You're right that, even though it shines particularly against rain teams, it's not dead weight at all against non-rain teams. I think C-Tier is a comfortable spot for it. PS- Sleep talk on the specs set is soooooooo good.
 
I wouldn't even run hidden power on Kingdra. The only thing your going to be hitting harder with HP electric is gyarados, which is ko'd after stealth rocks with draco meteor anyway. HP fire is only going to hit genesect, who will be faster than kingdra outside of the rain (Genesect is 1hko'd 68% of the time by hydro pump anyway), and the rare non-rain ferrothorn.
 

Pocket

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Specs Kingdra is always nice for the immediate power, but I personally prefer the special rain dance sweeper, which allows it to change weather to screw Sun and Sand Rushers. The LO recoil really takes its toll on Kingdra's bulk, though. I agree that Kingdra is at least C rank material.
 
Yeah, don't bother with Hidden Powers... besides, I find you NEED all of Hydro Pump, Surf, Draco Meteor, and Dragon Pulse. You just don't perform as well overall without all those STAB options for power and consistency. There are so many turns when you simply can't afford to miss, and you need Surf or Dragon Pulse to be sure of a sweep and clinche the win against a rain team.

I personally find Kingdra is too weak and too frail using Life Orb, doubly so if you're taking turns to try and set up. Specs keeps it relevant regardless of match up, and lets you use Kingdra's turns of life to the fullest by attacking and attacking with those valuable turns. Life Orb Rain Dance does pull off sweeps that are otherwise impossible though, and can turn the whole weather war in your favor in an instant (getting swept by Venusaur? just rain dance and sweep the enemy team).

Usually though, Kingdra really wants room for all its special STAB moves to help it get its maximum utility.

In any case, it sounds like we're in agreement about Kingdra's C-Rank level threat :D


Edit:

Also Bronzong maybe also C level? (Moves in order of relevancy/importance: Stealth Rock, Hidden Power Ice (a must), Toxic, Gyro Ball, Earthquake)

Perfect counters: Mamoswine, Gliscor
Almost perfectly counters: Tornadus-T, Dragonite, Latios, Landorus-i, Landourus-T, Haxorus,
Is a fairly decent check/pivot against: Garchomp, Salamence, Latias, Gastrodon,

Are the really important ones. Of course there are a bunch of other threats it can help you control too.
 
I'd actually argue Kingdra for B rank as it fits in perfectly with the B rank definition - it cannot sweep through most teams unless you are facing rain but thats all the support it needs to effectively win you the game. It is partially outclassed by Latios and Latias (both A rank), but considering on high-end ladder and in tournaments that Rain must be somewhere between 30-40% usage, Swift Swim comes in handy often enough to make it worth that teamslot.

Kingdra is far more relevent and threatening in this metagame than Lucario, Reuniclus, Alakazam etc, and actually does a far better job of beating rain nowadays than the current B rank Gastrodon. Saying Kingdra is equally as viable as Infernape, Vaporeon and Conkeldurr is ridiculous considering its the most threatening sweeper to the most common playstyle in OU.

edit: actually I'd also like to nominate Tyranitar for B rank. I find its incredibly ineffective at what its meant to do in BW2 OU. Hippowdon is an arguably better Sand inducer because its not just Dugtrio bait for Rain / Sun + Dugtio teams, and its access to Slack Off actually gives it some longevity. Tyranitar pretty much loses to every half decent Pokemon in OU 1v1. Just going down the list in the OP, it "loses" to practically everything in S and A ranks except Deoxys-D (still gets SR and Spikes up so not really a win for TTar anyway lol), Heatran, Latias, Latios, Ninetales (barring Will-O), and Starmie (barring Scald burn). Yes, it can only beat 6 out of 22 of what we have determined as the top OU Pokemon, and its not even that good an answer to Deoxys-D, Ninetales or Starmie anyway.

Tyranitar seems to be so high because people are claiming that it keeps Rain in check but Tyranitar is not switching in anywhere on the standard rain teams. It loses to Politoed, Dugtrio, most Ferrothorn, Tornadus, Keldeo, Thundurus-T and Genesect, and I can guarantee that if you are using a team with Tyranitar and you aren't having much trouble with Rain, its because you have 2 bulky water-resists that are doing all the work for you. I don't really see why you'd want to use Tyranitar in this metagame unless you were using Choice Band to support something by removing Lati@s etc and thats not enough to keep it in A rank, imo. A B-Rank pokemon is defined as one that has noticeable flaws that prevent them from doing its job and it is set-up bait for dangerous sweepers. I don't think you could really describe BW2 Tyranitar any better than that.
 
Haven't played BW2 too much, but this is how I see it.

Jirachi = Tier S. Ultimate revenge killer, out speeds Genesect who runs the metagame.

Hippo = Tier B. Fodder for too much, can't do much other than roar, ice fang, eq, sr and recover. Ttar can take hits and do damage back.

Gliscor = Tier A. Sub protect is so valuable in this metagame given the heavy offence. Not to mention he is decent to "countering" Terrakion.

Tangrowth = Tier C. Regen is awesome, capable of countering Land (both), Dragonite, Garchomp, Gliscor, Breloom once Spore is used, Rotom-W, Gyrados, Conkeldurr and others. Also has sleep which has value against Genesect switch ins. Sorry if this is an OU only list, haven't checked the tier list.

Skarmory = Tier C Maybe now that chomp is around he will be used, but he almost a liability. Loses to all but 3-4 Pokemon in the S and A tier, gets set up or spun on by anything that can.

Scizor in B? Initialy I thought that was ridiculous but Genesect has taken over and there are a few new Pokemon he cannot revenge.
 
I'd like to see Mamo stay in B. No doubt, it's good. It's a powerful threat that can annihilate almost every Pokemon in the game if it gets the chance to do so, and it's especially well suited towards the BW2 metagame. The unfortunate part of this is...it doesn't get gets the chance to do so nearly as much as you would initially think.

Its defenses and weaknesses are just too low and prevalent, respectively, to switch in nearly as much as I'd like it to in battles. It's also way too slow to sweep late-game unless the opposing team is extremely weakened or ice-weak, so often times you end up with a team slot that can't sweep or switch into anything completely safely besides a choiced electric attack, which is a bad idea to begin with.

I see really the only advisable time to switch in a mamo is after something on your team gets taken down by a wall or just anything slower than mamo, or something weak to Ice Shard. How many times has someone done this to you and then you realize that your entire team gets destroyed by mamoswine with correct prediction?

However, I think this is actually one of mamo's flaws that prevent it from being the metagame-destroying force that it may be on paper. Ground/Ice is a great stab combo, but most pokes are hit hard by one of them. Using it correctly just simply requires a lot of good prediction. If you bring in mamo on a sheer force landorus, you know that if you go for ice shard, your opponent has to switch out, but you may end up using ice shard on his terrakion and losing all your momentum. If you predict a switch and go for EQ, you risk him staying in just because the ice shard is extremely obvious and you will lose your mamo if you make that prediction and your opponent has the balls to stay in and capitalize. Nearly all predictions you make while using a mamoswine are pretty risky. It's not like terrakion where it's like "oh no, I hit him with a STAB stone edge instead of a STAB close combat! What will I do?" If you get out-predicted, you've likely got a really bad situation on your hands.

So mamo, despite all its potential for destruction, also has a chance to kill your momentum in a situation that it's theoretically supposed to dominate. If you're using a CB set, the problems are twofold, because it may take out a poke that the LO set couldn't, but the STAB combo is too weird to lock yourself into either one of those moves. It's a very cool pokemon and very usable, but it's not A-tier.
 
It's been a while since I update, here we go...!

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update
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Tyranitar down from A-tier tier ==> B-tier
Kingdra added to B-tier
Bronzong added to C-tier
Zapdos added to B-tier

on Thundurus-T: I was actually set to drop it into B-tier for quite some time now, but I want to hold off on that. I've been noticing a steady rise in Agility Thundurus-T's on lately and I think it's due to the fact that they're actually really strong in BW OU2. NP is definitely not the set of choice anymore, since there are barely even any walls to break; instead Agility & EXB sets run the gamut because both sets capable dolling out some serious damage to opposing teams or straight up sweeping in Agilities case. I have trouble checking Agility Thundurus-T lategame without some sort of dedicated Special Wall because it 2HKOes practically every single "pivot" or "tank" Pokemon in the tier. (They even run Grass Knot for Gastrodon). Not to mention that silly double dance set thats been going around is actually kind of good.
 
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.


  • Since UU pokemon are starting to be added to this, I would like to reintroduce Heracross for B-Rank to the discussion if no one minds since I feel like he fits the definition of B-Rank perfectly.

    Heracross is the number 1 used pokemon in the UU metagame. It has great dual STAB's, two awesome abilities, and a pretty good physical attack. It also has access to SD and Bulk Up. He has mediocre speed, but the can be remedied by a Choice Scarf set. It can also run a SubPunch set that will tear anything not a ghost-type apart if it is able to set up a sub. Choice Scarf is it's most popular set, combined with Moxie, which can sweep opposing teams from turn 1. The reason why I feel like he isn't used more in OU is because of that nasty 4X flying weakness he has, and with pokemon flying around (ok...pun intended) like Tornadus-T, Gliscor, and Skarmory, Its hard to include him on a team.

    HeraBoss for B-Rank
 
Thundurus T is baller with Agility; I'm going to agree with PK on that. If you are in need of a really effective electric-type wallbreaker (read: you want to use Volt Switch), Expert Belt is the set you wanna go with imo.

Heracross as a B-Rank? I'm going to say no. It's just not relevant to the metagame really... It's not fast enough or bulky enough naturally to do much without Choice Scarf, and with Choice Scarf, it's just too predictable and has coverage somewhat subpar for OU. Not to mention it's basically 100% inferior to Terrakion. I'm not going to try for a Moxie Sweep with Megahorn or Stone-Fail's accuracy, and Close Combat is planty strong on Scarf Terrakion.

Especially with Gliscor and both Landorus being so popular/effective, and Hippowdon coming in as the more popular sand setter instead of Tyranitar. The recent Foretress > Skarmory helps Heracross's case a bit, but Heracross still lacks what every effective Fighting type in the metagame has: Speed, precisely 108 Speed, or Priority.

Thing is Heracross is not only out performed by A and S rank Pokemon (Keldeo, Breloom, Terrakion, Genosect sort-of); it's also outclassed by B class ones (Lucario, Scizor), and frankly, even Conkuldurr and Infernape (C tier) are much more effective Pokemon overall. For weird substitute sets or mid-speed/bulky fighting types, Toxicroak (and Breloom of course) are much more relevant.

Since Heracross isn't relevant to any type of weather except beating sand (which Scarf Terrakion does WAY better, especially not getting hit by sand damage), and is inferior to other Fighting types in OU in bulk, speed, no priority, and even in base ATK, I'd say ~D or lower makes sense. Heracross does sound about as relevant to the metagame as Metagross.

btw-- usage in UU means jack shit here.
 
Cloyster should be moved down to C rank. Whilst its Shell Smash set is extremely threatening in theory, in practise I find it rarely ever manages to pull off a sweep, mostly because it has trouble breaking through most of the common Water & Steel types, can set up on very little due to its abysmal Special Defense, and is easily revenged killed by many Choice Scarf users. Now this is obviously from my own observations, but I really don't think Cloyster is particularly dominant in the current metagame.

Although I'd rather not have B rank too overly populated, I am still going to propose Victini for B rank. Whilst it is very susceptible to hazards and has a mediocre defensive typing, it is bar none the best Fire type physical sweeper, capable of demolishing almost anything in its wake with V-create in the sun. It has become a staple on many sun teams thanks to the popularity of Lavos' GeneSun team.

I think Jolteon should stay in B rank. It is quite a dangerous Pokemon that can really do a number on teams lacking one of the pink blobs, Ferrothorn or Gastrodon. Its natural speed tier is what really sets it apart from other Electric sweepers.
 
I don't see Volcarona as having A-tier potential As has been said earlier in the thread, it's really strong after a QD, but it has such a difficult time coming in. Its 4x weakness to SR is a huge factor in it not being worthy of A-tier as well. Offensive teams with spinblockers (which are exceptionally common nowadays) make Volcarona's life very difficult. The last nail in its B-Tier coffin is the fact that depending on which hidden power you run (assuming you run one) Volcarona is going to be walled hopelessly by Dragonite or Heatran.
 
The degree of support it needs to do its job is the problem. You're making it sound easier than it really is to sweep your opponent with Volcarona. What if your spinner dies before it's able to spin? What if they save their Dragonite, Heatran, Scarf Tyranitar/Landorus, keldeo, or Tornadus-T (if the rain is up)? There's a lot standing in its way and it needs a lot of support in order to do its job. B tier is fine for it.
 

Dark Fallen Angel

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Although Volcarona may have very, very few counters after one Quiver Dance, it is still easy to revenge kill. Just have something with 101 base speed or higher (100 base speed can also outrun bulkier versions) that packs a super-effective attack, preferably one physical. With a Choice Scarf, all of them can outspeed Volcarona even after one Quiver Dance, and kill him with the move of choice. Landorus, Garchomp (I didn't even saw someone using ScarfChomp, however), Keldeo and Terrakion are just some of them. This limits Volcarona's effectiveness, as you must also not only kill Dragonite and Heatran, but also any potential revenge killer, unless you know that they aren't using Choice Scarf, and you have the right move. Also, Starmie can't kill all the spinblockers as easily as it sounds. Jellicent avoids the 2HKO from Thunderbolt with a specially defensive spread (I've burn-stalled many Starmies that tried to 2HKO my Jellicent). And without a psychic-type STAB attack, wich most Starmie don't carry, it has to rely on the shaky accuracy of Hydro Pump to OHKO Gengar, and as frail as Gengar is, without Stealth Rock he can survive one unboosted (no Life Orb or no Rain) Hydro Pump. Of course, these are situations that you may not face, so Starmie still is good against most spinblockers.
 

Electrolyte

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Landorus-T does not deserve B. I say C, at best. Seriously, it's in the same rank as freakin' Gliscor.
This, I have to disagree with.Landorus-T shouldn't exactly be compared with Gliscor, because the two play very different roles. Landorus-T is more of a tank and bulky pivot / sweeper, whereas Gliscor is pretty much restricted to Support / Defense (though, it's AcroGem set is quite dandy, but that's for another time) Coming in, Landorus-T's bulky tanker set has even more physical and special bulk than Gliscor's- and is more powerful as well. Landorus-T tends to cause a lot of switches like his Therian brothers, and can use that free time to set SR, U-Turn, or just hit really hard with a STAB EQ. However, Landorus-T isn't exactly suitable for the higher tiers because of its weakness to water / ice and its subpar speed. However, it is fine in the B-Tier.
 
When BW first came out, I was so psyched to use the shit out of Volcabrona, because he's awesome. You know why I stopped using him after a few weeks?

Because Scarf Landorus and Terrakion were EVERYWHERE. Rock Slide does over 200% damage and Sand Force EQ did something silly like a minimum of 92% to offensive variants.

Now, neither of these guys are as popular anymore, as both of them lost the premier scarf role to Genesect and Landorus is seeing more usage as a special attacker. But, Tornadus-T's Timid LO Hurricane still OHKOs pretty much every Volcarona before a boost (116% minimum versus 252/0). Hell, it does a minimum of 92% at +1 to offensive variants, so if you don't OHKO with your own Hurricane (you have a shot with Hurricane, LO, and full investment) and you're in the rain you're fucked.

Volcarona is B- or maybe even C-tier. He's awesome, but rain and Heatran are too ubiquitous for him to be anything but niche.
 

alexwolf

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Landorus-T in C-tier? Blasphemy! I would argue that he could go to A tier, as he is an awesome poke, but i am ok with him in B tier. In fact he is one of the best pokes in B tier... Why? It simply does so many things for offensive teams, and covers so many roles in one slot. He sets up SR reliably and holds back physical attackers, especially the beast that is called Terrakion, that otherwise most offensive teams would have to resort to revenge killing with priority. Preserves momentum with a hard hitting U-turn, which makes Starmie think twice before coming in to spin, as well as hitting some pokes resistant/immune to EQ very hard, such as Lati@s and Celebi. Finally that killer Attack alongside U-turn means that almost nothing can set-up on him. So Lano-T is an awesome poke and team player, filling the roles of physical tank which helps the team as well with Intimidate, SR setter, hard hitter, and scouter. He is just so reliable at what it does!

And please don't even compare him with Gliscor. Gliscor is quite shitty right now. He lost his main offensive set, AcroBat; ok he didn't lost it, but i haven't seen a single person using it after Sand Veil got banned. Rain teams are everywhere and they just murder him, Taunt Torn-T is everywhere, meaning that even if he does set up a Sub against something that it walls, it can't do shit to Torn-T and generally most pokes don't give a shit about him. He checks Terrakion and counters BandTar and HaxRachi but that's it. Many physical attackers such as Breloom, Lucario, physical dragons and Mamoswine can get past him really easy, often making him a liability. He is still an ok poke if you are need of its quantities, which are: amazing Terrakion check for defensive/balanced teams, status absorber, and a generally sturdy as fuck physical wall that has a lot of options such as U-turn, SR and Taunt to be useful for its team, but other than that he is meh.

Who knows maybe the CCAT will popularize SubPass Gliscor, which will become Gliscors's best set!!!
 

BurningMan

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Cloyster should be moved down to C rank. Whilst its Shell Smash set is extremely threatening in theory, in practise I find it rarely ever manages to pull off a sweep, mostly because it has trouble breaking through most of the common Water & Steel types, can set up on very little due to its abysmal Special Defense, and is easily revenged killed by many Choice Scarf users. Now this is obviously from my own observations, but I really don't think Cloyster is particularly dominant in the current metagame.
I completly agree with this Cloyster is currently really bad, without Focus Sash (wich needs spin support) it is almost impossible to set-up, it forces nothing out because it is neither particulary fast or strong before set-up and almost everything can outright KO it in the currently meta game. This wouldn't be so bad if it would be a monster after a shell smash, but a lot of threats are still bulky enough to take a hit and KO back and base 108 scarfers can still out speed and KO it. IMO C-Tiers Description fits perfectly on Cloyster it can be effective with the right support (preventing SR or Dual Screens), but it can't sweep consistently. In all honesty i haven't been sweeped by Cloyster since ages the most it has done to me was taking one or two pokemon down and then dying. So Cloyster to C-Tier.

I am also not sure about Gyarados in B-Tier i would have been perfectly OK with that in BW1, the biggest perks it got over the other DDers was its resistance to priority attacks, but i don't know if thats enough for B-Tier. It actually got the reverse problem of cloyster it got a nice set of resistances and alot of bulk+intimidate that makes it easy to set-up, but can't do really much after that almost every scarfer outspeeds it and is able to OHKO after SR this can be worked around by using the substitute set (wich is still the best set in my eyes), but this limits it to one coverage move wich means it will miss out on hitting a lot of the metagame (and Bounce is just a terrible attack). It is also pretty reliant on rain support as without it 80 BP is pretty weak for a stab attack wich makes consistent sweeping even harder. I also don't think the defensive sets are really worth it RestTalk is outright terrible in this generation especially on a Pokemon that is SR weak. Fast phazing looks cool until you realize that Gyarados isn't fast and you only got a 1 in 3 chance to actually do that and its Waterfall is also pretty weak without any investment (again 80 BP just doesn't really cut it anymore). All in all i can't really see what holds it in B-Tier right now other than the nostalgia for the good old DPP times where it was the boss that a giant leviathan is supposed to be, but in the ages of an ugly steel fossil Gyarados is nothing but C-Tier.
 

Electrolyte

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On the topic of Volcarona:

I think it is fine where it is. It is not as hard to counter as pokemon from up there in the A and S tier, but it still holds its spot as one of the primary set up sweepers in the tier. The problem with the meta and Volcarona is this: its counters are powerful, but few. As a decently experienced rater, I have observed the lack of solid counters to the moth- resulting in many teams that are weak or just plain sweeped by it. The new advent of Genesect gave its bulky set so much more viabiliy- and its typing allows it to wall and set up on common physical sweepers like Loom. Volcarona cements itself as a good set up sweeper for at least until some new powerful rock type shows up.

I'd say Volcarona's main problem is its weakness to SR and the fact that all of its counters utterly wall it. The popularity of Heatran and Keldeo are hurting Volcarona, and most of the new Therians can OHKO it in one hit. It adds to a team's hazard weakness by a lot because it's offensive set is almost useless once rocks are up. With the right support, though, it can sweep pretty easily.
 
omg. go look at the s-tier and a-tier list. are you saying that they are not easily revenged?
Tornadus, Thundurus, Terrakion, Dragonite, Garchomp, Salamence, Landorus, Heatran
I mean really. Just because it can be easily revenge killed, its reason enough to drop it a tier? not really my friend

PS: Re-reading my posts and I realize I need to chill. I respect you guys and your reasoning. Just wanted to justify my reasons haha, sorry if I sound immature. We need some people, like PK Gaming to get in on this... ._.
Look at every one of the pokemon you listed. None of them face the same terrible SR weakness that Volcarona does. Even though they can be revenge killed, they have a much easier time actually coming back in when given the opportunity. Because Volcarona is 4x weak to stealth rock, you pretty much just get one shot with it before it's down.
 
@Volc-- the point is that it's far too limited in what it can do. It takes a LOT of support to get a set up sweep, it can't do ANYTHING except setup sweep (it's pretty shit as a wall breaker because of 4x SR weak), and there is a huge variety of Pokemon that stop its setup sweep. It can work, but no where with the consistency and independence as an A rank threat like Dragonite or Garchomp.

As others have mentioned, because the other A-ranks lack that 4x SR weak, they have the freedom to do a lot more-- wall break, run scarf sets... hit hard, switch out, come back to hit hard again. Heatran isn't even a sweeper, so don't matter if it can be revenge killed; it's a top rank support pokemon. Volcarona is just too one-dimensional, because no matter what variation you use, it's only successful route is Quive Dance Sweeper.

Also, I can't believe you guys are questing the B-Tier level of Pokemon like Gyarados and Landorus-T when they share the rank with Pokemon like Kyurem and Xatu. Landorus-T is great in support, wall break, or Gravity sweep/destroy. Gyarados is somewhat outclassed by Salamence/Dragonite, but that doesn't mean its level of threat/viability is really low. It's definitely a lot more independent as an offensive Pokemon than Volcarona at least.

(however, out-sped and OHKO'd by Genosect is something Salamence/Volc don't have to worry about... Gyara has issues, but than I still think it's more viable than stuff like Blissey and Abamasnow...)
 
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