OU The OU Viability Ranking thread

[Gary]

IMO, if you wanna use a bulky electric, go for Modest Zapdos instead.

While it lacks a way to go mixed, Zapdos has much better bulk, and arguably better coverage in the form of Heat Wave. Once Lightning Rod gets released, Zappy will have an easier time switching in and setting up.

Although Zapdos may SEEM like it can run a decent offensive set in OU, it's actually quite the opposite. It's still viable, but I honestly see no point in running Zapdos when Thundurus-T outclasses its offensive set in pretty much every way imaginable. It's MUCH more powerful, has access to Focus Blast for Ferrothorn and Superpower for the pink blobs, and can use boosting moves like Agility and Nasty Plot. Heat Wave is a cool move that Zapdos may have over Thundy-T, but it's so pitifully weak in the rain that it finds little usage outside of surprising an occasional Ferrothorn or Forretress. Besides, Thundurus-T can still easily 2HKO Forretress with Thunder, and Ferrothorn with Focus Blast. The only set that Zapdos should really be running in OU, is the specially defensive set, because Zapdos is actually quite bulky compared to Thundurus-T. Even then, it has more of a niche on stall teams or teams that are incredibly weak to a lot of offensive rain teams.

tl;dr Don't use offensive Zapdos in OU. Use Thundurus-T.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Although Zapdos may SEEM like it can run a decent offensive set in OU, it's actually quite the opposite. It's still viable, but I honestly see no point in running Zapdos when Thundurus-T outclasses its offensive set in pretty much every way imaginable. It's MUCH more powerful, has access to Focus Blast for Ferrothorn and Superpower for the pink blobs, and can use boosting moves like Agility and Nasty Plot. Heat Wave is a cool move that Zapdos may have over Thundy-T, but it's so pitifully weak in the rain that it finds little usage outside of surprising an occasional Ferrothorn or Forretress. Besides, Thundurus-T can still easily 2HKO Forretress with Thunder, and Ferrothorn with Focus Blast. The only set that Zapdos should really be running in OU, is the specially defensive set, because Zapdos is actually quite bulky compared to Thundurus-T. Even then, it has more of a niche on stall teams or teams that are incredibly weak to a lot of offensive rain teams.

tl;dr Don't use offensive Zapdos in OU. Use Thundurus-T.

Once Lightning rod gets released, that might be a different story. However, in general, Mr. T. Therian outclasses Zappy offensively.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Wait it is shut down by sand? Sand Offense struggles against Sun Offense to say the least, most of the standard sun teams of Keldeo/Tar/Lando can effortlessly get swept by Lilligant or Venusaur with a chlorophyll boost, which is easily obtainable due to the abundance of Dugtrio on sun teams, Gothitelle trapping Keldeo in the sun also can break the core, forcing sand to rely on Heatran/Latios to check sun, which in Heatran's case, isn't reliable and with Latios' case, can get worn down/actually gives Ninetales a job.

Sun teams are amazing nowadays as it is the only playstyle where you have to do weird shit in teambuilding to check it, like slap random Lati@s or Tran on a team.

Dugtrio's Focus Sash is easily broken by entry hazards. Gothitelle is almost OHKOed by Specs HP Ghost from Keldeo(74.73% - 88.25%) and even Scarf Keldeo can leave a mark on it. Landorus can take a SolarBeam and OHKO Venusaur with Psychic, and Lilligant is rare.
Sorry, but sun teams are insanely predictable. I know they're good, but not amazing.

 

[Schpoonman]

Landorus very rarely carries Psychic. Earth Power still has a fair chance to OHKO after Rocks, but Venusaur outspeeds before a Rock Polish and puts you to sleep/OHKOs YOU with HP Ice, which it does sometimes carry.

 

[Halcyon.]

Dugtrio's Focus Sash is easily broken by entry hazards. Gothitelle is almost OHKOed by Specs HP Ghost from Keldeo(74.73% - 88.25%) and even Scarf Keldeo can leave a mark on it. Landorus can take a SolarBeam and OHKO Venusaur with Psychic, and Lilligant is rare.
Sorry, but sun teams are insanely predictable. I know they're good, but not amazing.

This is extremely misleading, as none of these situations will happen very often. Considering your first statement, Sun teams almost always carry a Rapid Spinner or a Magic Bounce user, so there aren't many times when an opponent would lose their Focus Sash on Dugtrio. Even if they did, Dugtrio doesn't have to switch in on opponents. Quite often, in fact, Dugtrio comes in on an opponent after something has been sac'd. Besides, it only needs Sash for ScarfTar, as it can take out a weakened Tyranitar without Reversal. Another thing to consider is that Banded and Sand Force Dugtrio are fantastic in the metagame right now, since Showdown won't let you cancel a switch on a Pokémon that can trap you, and no one expects the Banded set anyway. Both sets allow you to cleanly OHKO Tyranitar even without a Sash.

Scarf Gothitelle is the one people use, which out-speeds Keldeo and 2HKOs it before it can be 2HKO'd by Hydro Pump or HP Ghost. As with Dugtrio, Gothitelle usually only comes in after something else has already been killed off, so the opponent doesn't have a chance to double switch to prevent you trapping them. And if Gothitelle is Specs, it can still avoid the OHKO from Specs Keldeo and proceed to OHKO with Psychic. Gothitelle also makes a great revenge killer for Landorus, since it can OHKO with HP Ice after something has been killed. Scarf variants can come in on Landorus that haven't boosted and KO (saving its HP for Keldeo later), or survive one hit and KO anyway (though this means it can't revenge Keldeo).

Yes, Landorus can OHKO Venusaur with Psychic, but none of them carry it. He can only 2HKO Venusaur at best with Earth Power (if Venusaur has the standard 72 HP EVs), where as Venusaur can 2HKO with Giga Drain or OHKO at +2. Also, when is Venusaur ever going to switch into Landorus anyway? Probably never unless it carries HP Ice, which is a guaranteed OHKO.

 

[alexwolf]

Although Zapdos may SEEM like it can run a decent offensive set in OU, it's actually quite the opposite. It's still viable, but I honestly see no point in running Zapdos when Thundurus-T outclasses its offensive set in pretty much every way imaginable. It's MUCH more powerful, has access to Focus Blast for Ferrothorn and Superpower for the pink blobs, and can use boosting moves like Agility and Nasty Plot. Heat Wave is a cool move that Zapdos may have over Thundy-T, but it's so pitifully weak in the rain that it finds little usage outside of surprising an occasional Ferrothorn or Forretress. Besides, Thundurus-T can still easily 2HKO Forretress with Thunder, and Ferrothorn with Focus Blast. The only set that Zapdos should really be running in OU, is the specially defensive set, because Zapdos is actually quite bulky compared to Thundurus-T. Even then, it has more of a niche on stall teams or teams that are incredibly weak to a lot of offensive rain teams.

tl;dr Don't use offensive Zapdos in OU. Use Thundurus-T.

While most of what you said is true, it's not true that offensive Zapdos has no use in today's OU. What offensive Zapdos has over Thundurus-T is much more bulk, Roost, and Heat Wave, which allow it to act as a reliable counter to dangerous Pokemon such as Breloom, Scizor, and Tornadus, as well as a check to Landorus, while also being able to get past common special walls such as SpD Jirachi and Celebi thanks to Heat Wave, something that Thundurus-T can't do unless you give it NP or rain support (which allows it to 2HKO SpD Jirachi with Thunder). Also, thanks to offensive Zapdos's wonderful combination of power, coverage, and bulk, you will see that many bulky offensive teams lack a swift respsonse to it and thus end up struggling against it.

tl;dr Use offensive Zapdos on teams that are Scizor and/or Breloom weak, such as ones that use Terrakion, and you won't be disappointed.

Agreeing with Thundurus-T for A rank.

 

[vyomov]

Nominating Accelgor for C-Rank
Right now, Accelgor isn't even ranked. Accelgor has a niche as an offensive spiker, and with that amazing base speed can also run a sash set and guarantee two layers of spikes which can be crucial.
Further recommending Roserade for C-Rank
Roserade has lost it's niche in OU: it's too slow to work as a sweeper or as a spiker, has easily exploited weaknesses and no bulk. Accelgor outclasses it as a spiker, Venusaur outclasses it as a grass-type sweeper with Chlorophyll, etc. Even as a toxic-spike absorber(which is not really something any team NEEDS and is REALLY stretching things as a niche, but ok) it is outclassed by Tentacruel who has Rain Dish and rapid spin.

 

[Prinz]

Nominating Accelgor for C-Rank
Right now, Accelgor isn't even ranked. Accelgor has a niche as an offensive spiker, and with that amazing base speed can also run a sash set and guarantee two layers of spikes which can be crucial.
Further recommending Roserade for C-Rank
Roserade has lost it's niche in OU: it's too slow to work as a sweeper or as a spiker, has easily exploited weaknesses and no bulk. Accelgor outclasses it as a spiker, Venusaur outclasses it as a grass-type sweeper with Chlorophyll, etc. Even as a toxic-spike absorber(which is not really something any team NEEDS and is REALLY stretching things as a niche, but ok) it is outclassed by Tentacruel who has Rain Dish and rapid spin.

i honestly don't like a lot roserade in ou. for sure have a toxic-spikes absorber is useful and it's useful have a spikes user and a toxic spikes user too but a) toxic spikes aren't always useful in ou where there are many mons which don't care about them (lati twins, landorus, dragonite) and mons which can absorb them (venusaur, tentacruel, toxicroak), b) there are better spikes users in ou (skarmory which has a reliable recovery move, yes, roost is better than rest + natural cure because with it you have to switch out every time you want recover your hp and an important immunity to ground and forretress which has rapid spin too, and better defensive statistics, as well skarmory) and c) there are better mons which can absorb opposing toxic spikes too. venusaur, the best chrolophyll sweeper, tentacruel, amoonguss and toxicroak are all better in this role and, in general against the rest of the meta too than roserade in my opinion. anyways, it can be c-rank i guess, it isn't a very bad mon.

otherwise, i can't express my opinion on accelgor because i never use it in ou. however, it's outclassed by things like skarmory (custap berry variant) and aerodactyl (even crustle does a better job i think) so perhaps the c-rank for accelgor is just too much. i'm unsure though, let's see what the other users say about it.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

I've used Roserade for a short time on OU, and can say that while it is surely not that good, it is good. It is good when you need a Grass-type that can supply entry hazards, as otherwise you are better off using Celebi or Amoonguss. However, thanks to its awesome Special Attack, it has better offensive presence than the two. It also has decent special bulk and can tank many Water-type and Electric-type attacks very well, in addition to weaker neutral special attacks. It also has a niche in stall teams as a status absorber.

Also, Accelgor does not outclass Roserade as a spiker, at least on stall teams, for the reasons explained above. As for Venusaur, Roserade should not be used as a sweeper anyway. I agree with the Tentacruel point though, but not completely. Roserade has the aforementioned reasons to be used instead of Tentacruel.

It has some shortcomings, though; complete setup bait for some Pokémon (Dragonite and Volcarona for example) unless you use niche moves like Hidden Power or Sleep Powder. It can't wall Sheer Force Landorus, unlike Celebi. It also has pitful physical bulk and actually takes more damage from Pursuit than Celebi.

I can't say whether I agree it for C-Rank or B- Rank, though...

 

[Tressed]

Roserade is pretty decent in OU. I'll pretty much back up what Dark Fallen Angel said, Roserade has a nice set of resistances backed up by a good offensive presence and a useful movepool (while I'm on the subject, don't switch Heatran into Roserade in the rain, chances are its packing Weather Ball.) Access to Sleep Powder and hazards is pretty good, too, and Roserade isn't outclassed at that because it has no competition for the spot. Stuff like Natural Cure and Toxic Spikes soaking is just icing on the cake.
Of course, it does have flaws, namely weaknesses to common coverage moves, lack of reliable healing (Is Rest + Natural Cure reliable?), and physical frailness, so I understand completely why it isn't used more often.
As for ranking it, I would argue that it would either stay where it is or move up to B. It has a larger niche than Haxorus, at least (get into that in a sec), and it can do its job fairly reliably. I think its a good 'mon.

As for Haxorus, lets drop it to B-. Haxxy is outclassed by Kyu-B / Mence for the most part, as Kyurem Black is quite possibly the best dedicated wallbreaker atm, while Salamence is generally better at the whole DD / Choice Scarf thing. The only things Haxorus has going for it are its Swords Dance and Double Dance sets, which aren't outshone by either, but both are somewhat hard to set up with Haxorus's bulk, and its Speed limits both sets quite a bit. Haxorus is still good, but there aren't a ton of reasons to use him anymore. Dropping it is the best option, imo.

 

[vyomov]

As for ranking it, I would argue that it would either stay where it is or move up to B. It has a larger niche than Haxorus, at least (get into that in a sec), and it can do its job fairly reliably. I think its a good 'mon.

You can't justify a mon being better than another one in the rank as proof it's B. For instance, Victini, Mienshao and Weavile all have equivalent niches in OU if not better. In fact, I'd justify Haxorus going to C-Rank because all the mons in B- rank have better niches and can execute this better.
Haxorus is honestly outclassed everywhere. Kyu-B is a better wallbreaker. Garchomp is a better speedy wallbreaker. Hell, Dragonite is more bulky and thus is way better as a wallbreaker. So Haxorus has honestly NO niche and no reason to be used except as a gimmick.

 

[Halcyon.]

Saying Haxorus is bad because it's the worst Dragon in OU is like saying 3rd place at the Olympics sucks. It's still an OU Dragon and is fucking scary when used right. I think it's fine right where it is. I also back whoever said Roserade should be in C Rank. I used Roserade in a recent team, and outside of being a somewhat decent team player against rain teams, it just didn't pull its weight. Maybe it would have a bigger niche if it could use both Sleep Powder and Spikes, but, alas, it can't. It's HP and defense stats make it horribly weak on the physical side, and only decent on the special side. Seriously, its HP sucks. It loses to Tentacruel too, unless it's running an offensive set, and takes huge amounts from Forretress's Gyro Ball, even if it does good damage with HP Fire. Rest isn't even reliable recovery, since it forces you to switch out, which is never something you want to be forced to do, especially if you counter the thing you're in on. I think it does have a niche, but that niche is better suited for C Rank than B-.

 

[vyomov]

Saying Haxorus is bad because it's the worst Dragon in OU is like saying 3rd place at the Olympics sucks. It's still an OU Dragon and is fucking scary when used right. I think it's fine right where it is. I also back whoever said Roserade should be in C Rank. I used Roserade in a recent team, and outside of being a somewhat decent team player against rain teams, it just didn't pull its weight. Maybe it would have a bigger niche if it could use both Sleep Powder and Spikes, but, alas, it can't. It's HP and defense stats make it horribly weak on the physical side, and only decent on the special side. Seriously, its HP sucks. It loses to Tentacruel too, unless it's running an offensive set, and takes huge amounts from Forretress's Gyro Ball, even if it does good damage with HP Fire. Rest isn't even reliable recovery, since it forces you to switch out, which is never something you want to be forced to do, especially if you counter the thing you're in on. I think it does have a niche, but that niche is better suited for C Rank than B-.

Well, it is scary but outclassed, which is why it might belong in C Rank(although B is just fine). I made the proposal of Roserade for C-Rank and I tried using it as well, it just doesn't pull it's weight(was the worst performing mon on the team).

Considering that Roserade is nowehere as effective as other mons in B-(like Victini, Weavile, Mienshao), it deserves C-Rank.

backed up by a good offensive presence

With that speed, not offensive enough, which is why Accelgor is a better spiker.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Well, it is scary but outclassed, which is why it might belong in C Rank(although B is just fine). I made the proposal of Roserade for C-Rank and I tried using it as well, it just doesn't pull it's weight(was the worst performing mon on the team).

Considering that Roserade is nowehere as effective as other mons in B-(like Victini, Weavile, Mienshao), it deserves C-Rank.

With that speed, not offensive enough, which is why Accelgor is a better spiker.

While haxorus is outclassed at each INDIVIDUAL role its still the only dragon with access to dragon dance and swords dance. Combined with 147 attack its enough to keep it at least in B-Rank.

 

[Gary]

Let me make one thing clear here, because a lot of people don't seem to not understand this. If a Pokemon is outclassed, that does NOT make it a bad Pokemon. For example, look at Kyurem-C. Kyurem looks to be completely outclassed by Kyurem-B, but it has a number of traits that set it apart from Kyurem-B such as Pressure stalling and a higher SpA, making it a better choice for hail teams and on stall teams. Haxorus may be outclassed heavily by pretty much every Dragon in the tier, but putting it in C-Rank is a complete insult to an all around great Pokemon. Sure it's outclassed, but it's still good. Besides, there are still reasons to use it. When used correctly, Swords Dance Haxorus is one of the most dangerous sweepers in the tier. Kyurem-B doesn't have access to any boosting move other than the shitty Hone Claws, while Haxorus can use Dragon Dance or Swords Dance if your team is in need of a sweeper. Although Salamence and Dragonite seem to outclass the DD set, Haxorus has the advantage of not being SR weak and can tank an Ice Shard from Mamoswine if it has to, while OHKOing it with pretty much any move at +2 or even +1. Haxorus' speed may be a letdown, but if you're a smart player, you can work around it. Haxorus stays in B rank, because it's by no means a bad Pokemon, and shouldn't be dropped into the depths of niche Pokemon. It can still fulfill a number of roles successfully, and putting it in a lower rank because it's not the BEST at something is just not fair.

I'm also renominating Conkeldurr to B- Rank, as it was mostly overlooked. Here's my previous argument. I still can't believe this thing is rotting in C-rank.

 

[Bulgrom]

Nominating Slowbro for B- (or even B like his comrade Amoongus) rank.

First, it walls Terrakion all days. The only thing it fear from him are CB Stone Edge and X-Scissor, the former being unreliable, the latter setup bait for many mons. And they both dont even 2HKO all the time factoring Stealth Rock.
Then, it's a good check/counter to most of Sun team's physical sweepers. Darmanitan and Victini are both walled if they don't carry a CB. Infernape is helpless.

And unlike other physical walls, Bro has a usable special bulk. And he has the godlike regenerator, which allow him to tank hits continually.
And he don't give a shit at Scarf TTar/Weavile, making of his psychic typing a semi-issue (spam U-turn banded scizor is a bitch tough, but he can take one easily. Banded Ttar is also threatening, but you can recover the damage and switch to a dark resist if it crunched, else you wall it). And fighting resist is sweet.

Physical dragons are handled pretty well too.

100 Spa is good enough to not be totally set-up/taunt bait for half of the meta. Flamethrower is a good move in his arsenal, and SE Surfs and Ice Beams will hurt. Thunder Wave is nice, and balance his awful speed.

Of course he has his flaws (still average special bulk which don't allow him to tank to much stuff like rain boosted Hydro-Pump, spike bait if nit carrying flamethrower, helpless against some dangerous threat like breloom (he can't switch in a beam tough) or rotom-W, U-Turn weakness...), but he has a significant niche as a physical wall, significant enough to deserve B- rank.

I didn't talked about the CM or the Specs set, because I never used them (and they look pretty gimmick).

tl;dr -> Regenerator + amazing physical bulk + usable special bulk + not so bad movepool + /lol Terrakion -> do not deserve C rank.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

As a user of Slowbro, I do think you are kind of evading Slowbro's issues honestly. Slowbro is weak to some of the most common Pokemon in the meta-game, namely Scizor and Tyranitar, which serverely limits it's use. Furthermore, Slowbro has stiff competition on a defensive team for a position with Jellicent, who walls the after mentioned Scizor and blocks rapid spins. Because of this, Slowbro is still a niche Pokemon, and needs to be used appropriately.

Still, its a solid Pokemon, I will agree, I think it is probably worth at least B-, its up to tier with Pokemon like Weavile easily. (also you forgot the big selling point of walling 90% of Cloysters to hell and back).

I completely agree that CM and Specs are gimmicky, I am surprised they weren't deleted in the revamp.

Amoonguss has sosme serious flaws, keep it C tier. edit: huh Amoonguss is B... wut

 

[Poplolita]

!Sorry for my english, it's my second language!

I would like to nominate Vaporeon for B. It can be a healer, a staler, an offensive and defensive threat eliminator. It passes huge wish to pokemon lacking recovering move; Chandelure, latios, donphan to name a few. Not to mention the fact that it can attack back with a decent spA base stat. Unlike its direct wish passers competitors, blissey and jirachi, it deals with sand teams without ferothorn incredibly well.


What do you guys think?

 

[Gary]

!Sorry for my english, it's my second language!

I would like to nominate Vaporeon for B. It can be a healer, a staler, an offensive and defensive threat eliminator. It passes huge wish to pokemon lacking recovering move; Chandelure, latios, donphan to name a few. Not to mention the fact that it can attack back with a decent spA base stat. Unlike its direct wish passers competitors, blissey and jirachi, it deals with sand teams without ferothorn incredibly well.


What do you guys think?

Although Vaporeon may seem like the perfect wall on paper, there are a number of reasons why it sits in C-rank, and why it sees little usage. First off, Vaporeon can be very hard to fit on a rain team. Most rain teams have up to 3 Water-types on their team, such as Politoed, Tentacruel, Keldeo, Gyarados Feraligatr and Starmie. Rain teams try to mitigate the amount of Water-types they have in order to not end up 6-0 by Breloom or Thundurus-T. Unlike other Water-types such as Keldeo or Tentacruel who function very important roles in the rain and have a useful dual typing, Vaporeon is just a plain Mono Water-type that does nothing but Wish Pass and wall. Although these are not bad attributes to have, Vaporeon is very hard to fit on a rain team that is already filled with Water-types and a massive Electric-type weakness. Although you say Vaporeon can fight back with a decent SpA, it only uses the move Scald a majority of the time, which is easily walled by common defensive Pokemon. Vaporeon is also setup fodder if you choose to not run Roar. If you do run Roar, Vaporeon can only spam Scald to fight back. Outside of rain, Vaporeon faces the same problem. Now it loses out on a reliable method of recovery, so to fix that problem it has to run Wish + Protect, which yet again forces it to choose between coverage, Toxic, or Roar to keep Vaporeon from being complete setup fodder.

Combined all these problems together, and you have yourself a mediocre niche Pokemon. Vaporeon may be a great wish passer and defensive wall in the rain, but it has plain mono Water-typing, has poor offensive presence, hard to put on teams, terrible fourth moveslot syndrome, and overall outclassed by other Pokemon on weatherless teams, make it mediocre. Vaporeon should remain in C-Rank, and stay there.

 

[Poplolita]

Although Vaporeon may seem like the perfect wall on paper, there are a number of reasons why it sits in C-rank, and why it sees little usage. First off, Vaporeon can be very hard to fit on a rain team. Most rain teams have up to 3 Water-types on their team, such as Politoed, Tentacruel, Keldeo, Gyarados Feraligatr and Starmie. Rain teams try to mitigate the amount of Water-types they have in order to not end up 6-0 by Breloom or Thundurus-T. Unlike other Water-types such as Keldeo or Tentacruel who function very important roles in the rain and have a useful dual typing, Vaporeon is just a plain Mono Water-type that does nothing but Wish Pass and wall. Although these are not bad attributes to have, Vaporeon is very hard to fit on a rain team that is already filled with Water-types and a massive Electric-type weakness. Although you say Vaporeon can fight back with a decent SpA, it only uses the move Scald a majority of the time, which is easily walled by common defensive Pokemon. Vaporeon is also setup fodder if you choose to not run Roar. If you do run Roar, Vaporeon can only spam Scald to fight back. Outside of rain, Vaporeon faces the same problem. Now it loses out on a reliable method of recovery, so to fix that problem it has to run Wish + Protect, which yet again forces it to choose between coverage, Toxic, or Roar to keep Vaporeon from being complete setup fodder.

Combined all these problems together, and you have yourself a mediocre niche Pokemon. Vaporeon may be a great wish passer and defensive wall in the rain, but it has plain mono Water-typing, has poor offensive presence, hard to put on teams, terrible fourth moveslot syndrome, and overall outclassed by other Pokemon on weatherless teams, make it mediocre. Vaporeon should remain in C-Rank, and stay there.

(Sry for my english, its my second language and. I'm on my iphone ^^)
I have enough experience to know how, when and in what team vaporeon should be used (Had 1943 rating before DDos, now 1810; vapSeon. Won against some of the current top players with literaly only vaporeon) I know for sure it shouldn't be in a team filled with water pokemons like tentacruel... keldeo... starmie. You'll be suprised to know that the most effective vaporeons... are usually used outside rain teams.


I would also like to add that wish+protect is a more reliable recovery move than rest for the simple reason that it could be easily countered just by canceling rain with another weather pokemon. And could also scout moves like trick which usually completly shut down vaporeon.

Mono Water-typing shouldn't be used as a argument against why vaporeon. Unlike jellicent, vaporeon isn't scared of Tyranitar, one of the most common pokemon in the game. Unlike tentacruel, vaporeon doesn't care about gastrodon or any other ground type pokemon. I do admit that It has its downside. Not being able to absorb toxic spike, rapid spin block, immunity against toxic, normal and combat type immunity.

Should I also add that among the most common bulky water pokemon, it has the stongest scald in Ou? So I don't know why it makes vaporeon even more of a set up folder when it ,unlike slowbro, tentacruel, jellicent (without taunt and more over 60 Ev in spe) it can roar if it teams is successible to set up or hurt them with a stronger scald. Even defensive bulky starmie has a weaker scald than Vaporeon.

 

[victinivcreate1]

(Sry for my english, its my second language and. I'm on my iphone ^^)
I have enough experience to know how, when and in what team vaporeon should be used (Had 1943 rating before DDos, now 1810; vapSeon. Won against some of the current top players with literaly only vaporeon) I know for sure it shouldn't be in a team filled with water pokemons like tentacruel... keldeo... starmie. You'll be suprised to know that the most effective vaporeons... are usually used outside rain teams.


I would also like to add that wish+protect is a more reliable recovery move than rest for the simple reason that it could be easily countered just by canceling rain with another weather pokemon. And could also scout moves like trick which usually completly shut down vaporeon.

Mono Water-typing shouldn't be used as a argument against why vaporeon. Unlike jellicent, vaporeon isn't scared of Tyranitar, one of the most common pokemon in the game. Unlike tentacruel, vaporeon doesn't care about gastrodon or any other ground type pokemon. I do admit that It has its downside. Not being able to absorb toxic spike, rapid spin block, immunity against toxic, normal and combat type immunity.

Should I also add that among the most common bulky water pokemon, it has the stongest scald in Ou? So I don't know why it makes vaporeon even more of a set up folder when it ,unlike slowbro, tentacruel, jellicent (without taunt and more over 60 Ev in spe) it can roar if it teams is successible to set up or hurt them with a stronger scald. Even defensive bulky starmie has a weaker scald than Vaporeon.

Scald is an 80 base power move. With STAB, that becomes 120 base power, but this is from Vaporeon's uninvested SpA stat. Only 4x weak mons are gonna be in serious trouble. Bulky Volcarona could actually set up on this with Quiver Dance, Roost to recover HP, and sweep.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Scald is an 80 base power move. With STAB, that becomes 120 base power, but this is from Vaporeon's uninvested SpA stat. Only 4x weak mons are gonna be in serious trouble. Bulky Volcarona could actually set up on this with Quiver Dance, Roost to recover HP, and sweep.

Only Ice Beam versions, Vaporeon with Roar or Toxic can deal with it effectively.

 

[Meru]

Lol@people trying to drop Roserade to C-rank just because they don't know how to use it. Roserade is an insanely helpful tool to have in this weather-infested meta. Not a SINGLE weather inducer is immune to Toxic Spikes. And sure they can carry absorbers to forgo this downside, but then they're shoving their team into predictable builds. So it's either A) you're facing a team that you're not planned for, but is T-spikes weak, or B) you're facing a super predictable build that you can already plan your team around since only six OU-viable pokemon (Tentacruel, Venusaur, Toxicroak, Nidoqueen/king, Amoonguss, and Roserade herself) can absorb them and only the first three are commonly seen, and come with very predictable partners.

And this chip damage extends far beyond weather inducers. Terrakion, Keldeo, Kyurem-B, Breloom, Garchomp, a lot of brutal bulky sweepers become much easier for your Choice Scarfer to OHKO (instead of 2HKO and end up taking a hit) after a round or two of chip Toxic Spikes damage.

And then you look at Roserade's utility beyond Toxic Spikes. It's the only Keldeo counter that can outspeed and OHKO CBtar. Sleep Powder and perfectly tailored 95 base speed allow it to invest just enough speed to quell leads that commonly put stall teams in horrible positions such as Breloom and Custap Skarmory. Sleep Powder in and of itself can turn the tide of so many games if properly supported. Her Grass/Poison typing allows her to check pretty much every specially-oriented rain staples not named Tornadus and SubCMrachi, and she is one of the best Rotom-W counters in existence due to Natural Cure not being weak to 4x weak to Scizor's bug moves *cough* Celebi.

I know this may seem like a bunch of fluff about Roserade, so I'm definitely not gonna neglect to mention her downsides. She straight up blows against sun teams and she allows many dangerous things to come in for free. However, if you cover both of these faults with team support, it's worth it for the benefits she gives to sand stall teams, making her easily earn a position in B-. The only fault of hers that can't be covered is Sleep Powder accuracy, but that's a small price to pay considering how potent it is when it manages to connect.

- ROSERADE OUT

Also while we're at it, I think Cloyster and Conkeldurr should join Rosey in the B- rank. These two get a bad rap for being able to soften up many walls. Conkeldurr's Sheer Force set in particular is underrated af.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

I don't know if this has been brought up before, but I'd like to nominate Terrakion down to A+. Everyone knows how great Terrakion is, which is why it's in S rank in the first place, but I believe there's a reason it's falling in usage. People are picking other Fighting types (like Keldeo and Breloom) over Terrakion, and you can see why when you realise both Breloom and Keldeo can function in Sand AND Rain, where as Terrakion can only really work amazingly in Sand. Sure, you can put Terrakion in a Rain team, but it just isn't "as good" as the other 2.

Then there's priorty. Scizor is the most common Pokemon in OU, and Breloom is in the top 10, prehaps the best checks to Terrakion (when isn't behind a Sub). Latios is also a pretty good check to Terrakion, which is also seeing really high usage (I believe it's in top 10, but don't quote me on that one).

And finally we talk about Terrakion's counter(s). I believe Landorus-T is a counter to Terrakion, as Terrakion misses the 2HKO on Landorus-T with Stone Edge after SR (and I haven't even mentioned how much 80% accuracy sucks). Landorus-T is also being using a lot in the metagame (I think it's top 20). I could also mention lesser used counter, like Slowbro, Gliscor, and Tangrowth, but I think I've got my point across.

Terrakion for A+ rank

 

[Fallacies]

Yeah I think Terrakion isn't all that great to be honest. I tried many of it's sets and I'm usually disappointed with it. I wouldn't mind seeing Terrakion dropping down to A+.