Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
You're exaggerating how bad it is. It is bad, sure, but it has the small niche in being able to beat all of OUs rapid spinners using a specially defensive rest + sleep talk set. Honestly, I wouldn't say that it's any worse than something like Aerodactyl.
And do what back? Starmie switches out and gets rid of burn, and, well...

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops in rain: 129-152 (45.42 - 53.52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Have fun switching your Dusclops into that! And I thought Jellicent couldn't spinblock Starmie effectively. Dusclops can't even switch in on its Rain-boosted STAB.

As for everything else, Forretress sets up all of its hazards on you, nobody uses Donphan, and as for Tentacruel... You could argue that Dusclops could beat it, but then again, when you rely on RestTalk for recovery, you are bound to fail at some point.
 
Starmie beats every spin blocker, no point arguing that. The best spin-blocker in ou, Jellicent also loses to it under the right conditions. Then again, jellicent also loses to sub-toxic tentacruel, which dusclops beats. Being able to beat one more spinner than jellicent is a small but useful niche. It deserves D-rank.
 
If it deserves D-rank here, it would deserve D-rank in UU. Guess what? It's E-rank in UU.

You are completely ignoring how awful RestTalk is as a mode of recovery. Okay, you recover all of your health. Now there's something you can't touch. You gotta switch out. That resets your sleep counter. Jellicent at least has access to Recover, which alone makes it 100% better than Dusclops, even if Jellicent loses to SubToxic Tentacruel.
 
Starmie beats every spin blocker, no point arguing that. The best spin-blocker in ou, Jellicent also loses to it under the right conditions. Then again, jellicent also loses to sub-toxic tentacruel, which dusclops beats. Being able to beat one more spinner than jellicent is a small but useful niche. It deserves D-rank.
There is almost no condition that a 252/252 spd Jellicent loses to Starmie under the any conditions outside of crit hax. Unless it decides to run LO Thunder.

252SpAtk Life Orb Starmie (Neutral) Thunderbolt vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Water Absorb Jellicent (+SpDef): 39% - 46% (158 - 186 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

Hell jellicent can almost stall LO Thunder...

252SpAtk Life Orb Starmie (Neutral) Thunder vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Water Absorb Jellicent (+SpDef): 48% - 57% (196 - 234 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 15% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.
 
Exactly. ^ LO Thunder is actually pretty common, especially with rain teams.

Btw, ou and uu are very different. How something works in one tier doesn't affect its ability in another. Just look at dugtrio and gastrodon.
 
Doesn't change the fact that RestTalk is an undeniably awful recovery method. Again, when you rely on RestTalk for recovery, you are bound to fail at some point, especially when there's a myriad of Pokemon in OU that Dusclops just can't touch. Also, yes, OU and UU are very different. We're looking at a metagame that is significantly more offensive than UU is, with many more things (Rain/Sun boosted attacks, Heatran, etc.) that must be considered.
 
Exactly. ^ LO Thunder is actually pretty common, especially with rain teams.

Btw, ou and uu are very different. How something works in one tier doesn't affect its ability in another. Just look at dugtrio and gastrodon.
I've never seen starmie used on a rain team and LO thunder is not common at all. The spinner of choice on rain is almost always tentacool...

I just checked stats. Politoed's teammates with Starmie 12% of the time, 25% of the time it has LO and 15.6% it has thunder but 51% it has thunderbolt. I don't know how that's common.
 
I get that its awful, but dusclops still does SOMETHING. Its niche is minute, and kinda outclassed but still there.

Starmie works on offensive rain, try it out. You also need to factor in SR in your calcs which would make thunder a 2HKO, almost always.
 
Dusclops is just bad, I think it doesn't even deserve a tier. While he can wall some pokemon, he can't deal damage at all. And it is set-up bait for about every pokemon in the tier that doesn't mind will-o-wisp. Losing so much momentum is just awful in the metagame right now.
 

Asek

Genious to some... retard to most
Dusclops is just bad, I think it doesn't even deserve a tier. While he can wall some pokemon, he can't deal damage at all. And it is set-up bait for about every pokemon in the tier that doesn't mind will-o-wisp. Losing so much momentum is just awful in the metagame right now.
This is a good point. We're meant to be ranking pokemon that people actually use in OU so why are we bothering with dusclops which no competent OU player will bother using? If you're going to spin block in OU use jellicent or gengar, or if you really want to give chandelure a go. Dusclops isn't used in OU so why are we even fighting over where it should be placed?

EDIT: On this thunder vs thunderbolt thing running thunder out of rain can actually be done as it accurcary isn't too terrible, but having tried both on my Life Orb Starmie I alway preffered Thunderbolt due to its consitency rather than the fact that it performed well against the rain teams I would encounter on the ladder. Also Tentacruel spinning better than starmie doesn't make sense, if I wanted an offensive spinner I would use Starmie if I wanted a defensive one I would use tentacruel :/
 
Exactly. ^ LO Thunder is actually pretty common, especially with rain teams.

Btw, ou and uu are very different. How something works in one tier doesn't affect its ability in another. Just look at dugtrio and gastrodon.
LO Thunder is actually not common. Rain Teams don't pack Starmie anyway because Tentacruel does a better job at spinning under rain, and non-rain teams can't afford a 70% hit chance out of rain.
 
LO Thunder is actually not common. Rain Teams don't pack Starmie anyway because Tentacruel does a better job at spinning under rain, and non-rain teams can't afford a 70% hit chance out of rain.
This would be the case if rain wasn't omnipresent, but it is. You could easily run Thunder on something now more than ever in OU without rain support, and not miss a beat. Especially if that pokemon has access to Volt Switch.
 
This would be the case if rain wasn't omnipresent, but it is. You could easily run Thunder on something now more than ever in OU without rain support, and not miss a beat. Especially if that pokemon has access to Volt Switch.
Politoed clocked in at 18% usage last month.

That's not "omnipresent". If you're not using rain, 82% of your opponents will enjoy the 30% miss chance.
 
But still enough to consider Thunder, especially when Ninetales, the only thing that would screw Thunder up to the point of unplayability, can't even hit 10%. There are certain things that can KO or 2HKO with Thunder that can't with Thunderbolt.
 
I would like to bring Azelf to B Rank.

That amazing offensive stats are just what can bring it to the B Rank. 75 / 70 / 70 Defenses might seem bad and the weakness to Pursuit is also another problem, but when priority users are out of the way. Azelf can easily sneak in a Nasty Plot by the amount of sithches he forces. 115 Speed is more than Terrakion, Latios, Latias, and the resistance to Breloom's Mach Punch makes him to be able to OHKO him with Psyshock. Speaking of Psyshock, that can go past Blissey's defenses and Blissey crumble. Acess to Fire Blast means he won't be walled by Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Skarmory and with Stealth Rock support, he can break sashes and sturdy.

With a choice item, its a different story. The first option is Choice Band. Choice Band boosts the attack by 50% and combining that with 115 Speed it is like a Terrakion with better speed but weaker moves like Fire Punch. With Choice Specs, he can break through many walls. A Choice Scarf is the final option which lets him outspeed Latios and OHKO it with a super-effective Shadow Ball if it suffered some previous damage. 115 Spe Scarfer is fastest than the fastest scarfer that isn't a gimmick. Azelf is the only one of the legendary trio who isn't outclassed by other Psychics like Alakazam. Uxie is outlassed by Deoxys-D. Mesprit, well thats a different story.

Support options could include sun. A Sun-Boosted Fire Blast from a nasty plot boost will decimate every wall out there. 125 Attack can be abused by hitting Hydreigon, T-Tar , and Psychics for a kill with U-Turn. Also with the momentum and extra speed it has you can abuse Volt-Turn really well. In Rain it can abuse a 100% accurate Thunder where it can hit Skarmory super-effectively. At that time, it should use HP [Fighting] to hit Ferrothorn hard. He also has support options in Dual Screens. With its high speed it can take a hit and survive Tyranitar's unboosted pursuit and kill back with HP [Fighting].

Azelf is completely underestimated in the metagame with a bunch of Pursuit users, but with Fire Blast and HP [Fighting] combined with that Base 125 SpA, it can OHKO Scizor and kill weakened T-Tar.
 
I have to support Dusclops for D rank, yes its a very shitty pokemon overall, but it does have a tiny ass niche on stall teams. I personally have used it with some success on a stall team and I know a few other stall players have to, some even during the Genesect metagame. Dusclops main niche is its stupid amount of bulk, allowing to to check or even counter almost anything that doesn't have a direct type advantage over it, plus it blocks the spins of Forretress and Donphan well enough. Overall, yeah its shit, but it can be used to some effect.
 

Chou Toshio

Over9000
is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I don't think we're in too much of a rush to move infernape up to B tier. Kingdra should stay A because out of rain it's special sets are pretty much inferior to Lati@s who boast higher speed and offenses, with better bulk. They do miss out on a good secondary STAB however. The same goes for the DD set except Salamence and Dragonite outclass besides secondary STAB. Kingdra's usefullness as a counter to rain can't be dismissed, but the fact that ferrothorn exist's alone should be reason enough to keep it in B tier. Kingdra's number 1 enemy is found on nearly all the rain teams it should be beating down easilty doesn't help its viabilty, and the way that the other dragons in OU out shine it in a lot of ways further doesn't help its case. It fits solidly in the B tier with these qualities
What makes Kingdra good though is the fact that every rain team relies way too much on Ferrothorn as their check to many threats-- it has no recovery besides Leech Seed and is surprisingly easy to wear down. Any team using Kingdra should also be packing ways to remove Ferrothorn (like Magnezone, or a plethora of Fighting-type attacks). If Ferrothorn loses just half its health, it no longer can stop Kingdra even spamming Surf (let alone Hydro Pump). Which means Ferrothorn can never afford to take a Fighting attack from anything if it wants to stop Kingdra, nor even multiple EQs from offensive pokemon.

Most people who play Ferrothorn want to use it early game to set up hazards too, which gives the opponent opportunities to bash Ferrothorn with other attacks. So a rain team facing off with Kingdra has to choose between fighting an uphill battle without its usual hazard support, or else risk those hazards being useless in the face of a 1 enemy sweep.

When I'm using Kingdra and I see an enemy rain team, if Ferrothorn is the only check I'm practically writing up the battle as a win. If I see full rain stall with Chansey, Ferrothorn, Jirachi, and Tentacruel... that's the only time my Kingdra is fucked against rain. Oh, extra fucked if Gastrodon is in there too to add insult to injury.
 

Pocket

be the upgraded version of me
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Agreeing with Gary2346http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4505087&postcount=1003 about Mienshao - this Pokemon kicks butt in OU. It particularly makes a great Scarfer, checking Garchomp, Salamence, and Volcarona on top of Haxorus, Dragonite, and Gyarados. In addition, Reckless-boosted HJK provides it nuking power quite rare on fast Scarfers, allowing it to sweep late-game with surprising efficiency. Even Fighting resists, such as Dragonite and Landorus-I, find themselves in a 2HKO range after SR. U-turn is nice to pivot to a more suitable teamate when Mienshao is not ready for its HJK spree.

The one major flaw in Mineshao is its paper-thin bulk, unlike some bulkier scarfers like Landorus-I or even Salamence. However, its nuke power combined with its great Speed even for BW2, SR resistance, and access to U-turn makes for a solid Scarfer choice in OU. You guys should give it a spin! Most certainly a solid C-Tier, as Gary2346 requests!
 
How is Tornadus-T S rank when it needs Politoed to work? Lmao.
Hi, you must be new here. Check out posts 965 to 1,000-some if you really must find out, because this discussion has been had ad nauseam and I doubt anyone wants to bring it up again.

Long story short: No Pokemon abuses their weather like Tornadus-T abuses rain, and Drizzle is incredibly easy to sustain.
 

Asek

Genious to some... retard to most
I would like to bring Azelf to B Rank.

That amazing offensive stats are just what can bring it to the B Rank. 75 / 70 / 70 Defenses might seem bad and the weakness to Pursuit is also another problem, but when priority users are out of the way. Azelf can easily sneak in a Nasty Plot by the amount of sithches he forces. 115 Speed is more than Terrakion, Latios, Latias, and the resistance to Breloom's Mach Punch makes him to be able to OHKO him with Psyshock. Speaking of Psyshock, that can go past Blissey's defenses and Blissey crumble. Acess to Fire Blast means he won't be walled by Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Skarmory and with Stealth Rock support, he can break sashes and sturdy.

With a choice item, its a different story. The first option is Choice Band. Choice Band boosts the attack by 50% and combining that with 115 Speed it is like a Terrakion with better speed but weaker moves like Fire Punch. With Choice Specs, he can break through many walls. A Choice Scarf is the final option which lets him outspeed Latios and OHKO it with a super-effective Shadow Ball if it suffered some previous damage. 115 Spe Scarfer is fastest than the fastest scarfer that isn't a gimmick. Azelf is the only one of the legendary trio who isn't outclassed by other Psychics like Alakazam. Uxie is outlassed by Deoxys-D. Mesprit, well thats a different story.

Support options could include sun. A Sun-Boosted Fire Blast from a nasty plot boost will decimate every wall out there. 125 Attack can be abused by hitting Hydreigon, T-Tar , and Psychics for a kill with U-Turn. Also with the momentum and extra speed it has you can abuse Volt-Turn really well. In Rain it can abuse a 100% accurate Thunder where it can hit Skarmory super-effectively. At that time, it should use HP [Fighting] to hit Ferrothorn hard. He also has support options in Dual Screens. With its high speed it can take a hit and survive Tyranitar's unboosted pursuit and kill back with HP [Fighting].

Azelf is completely underestimated in the metagame with a bunch of Pursuit users, but with Fire Blast and HP [Fighting] combined with that Base 125 SpA, it can OHKO Scizor and kill weakened T-Tar.
The problem with azelf is that it's only really good set in that I would consider for a team in either of the Stealth Rock sets, is outclassed partially by other "suicide" leads. Mew boasts better bulk to get up rocks easier, and can still use explosion like azelf with normal gem explosion having a pretty solid power output coming from mew. Deoxy-D is the real killer, access to spikes with better bulk and recovery pretty much outclasses azelf when it comes to leading for the purpose of setting up hazards. Azelf may have uses besides from setting up those hazards, but most of the time you will be exploding after set up, with little difference in execution to mew and accomplishing less in the long run than deo-d. You can bring up the offensive sets, but I haven't even seen them once yet on showdown, and when I saw them on PO I found them pretty underwhelming and easily dealt with. Azelf is probaly a C rank as it faces very stiff competition for the suicide lead slot, with imo mew being better for that sort of role. Also the CB set being like terrak doesn't make sense, Terrak is throwing around amazing high powered STAB's off his already impessive Attack, making it nearly impossible to switch into. Azelf has a pretty poor STAB and pretty much U-turn being the only move terrakion is slightly envious of. I can support Azelf for C rank but idk if it should be any higher.

Also chou I know kingdra is pretty good in the current meta as I was using both mixed and special rain dance sets on my last few teams, but you can't forget that most players who need ferrothorn to keep kingdra in check will save it so it can do that job. Assuming Ferrothorn has LO it will be fairly easy to wear down if you have prio moves with hazards up, not to mention afore mentioned ferrothorn forces it out for a net loss of 22% of HP every time it switches into SR + Attacks, so although ferro will be getting worn down, kingdra will also be taking damage in the process. Or are you running specs? Anyways I know kingdra is good ATM I just can't see it being A tier.
(I legitmatly want to know what kingdra set this is it seems pretty good:toast:)
 
"S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank."

Technically speaking, wouldn't this make Keldeo S rank?
 
"S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank."

Technically speaking, wouldn't this make Keldeo S rank?
I don't know if we can base Keldeo's rank entirely on the fact that it is being suspected.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top