OU The OU Viability Ranking thread

[youngjake93]

If you switch Politoed in on the DD, then it tanks Outrage and KOs with Ice Beam^

I'd say Mence just got checked. That also puts +0 Outrage at about 50%? So if Mence Outrages instead of DDing, then Politoeds with Protect+Leftovers are guaranteed to not be 2hkoed.

I didn't really read the rest of that debate you guys are having, but Politoed is a Jolly Mence check.

 

[RabidChipmunk]

Boltbeam coverage isn't even as good as everyone makes it out to be... Dark+Fighting or EdgeQuake is good.

Here's a list of all the Pokemon in OU who resist both Electric moves and Ice moves:

-Magnezone.
-Mamoswine.

Plus, Thundurus can run Focus Blast or Grass Knot for additional coverage.

Especially when the beam half is HP Ice -_-

HP Ice still has some might behind it when it's backed by base 145 SpA. Obviously who need to wear down any of the opponents bulkier Pokemon before Thundurus can break through them, but that's not an argument against it. Every Pokemon needs support, and Thundurus isn't asking for much.

Anything that resists/is immune to Thunder, has moderate bulk, or has priority, etc are all going to laugh off any of Thundurus's attacks... especially at +0

First of all, no, if you have priority Thunder is still going to hurt, you just have to come in as a revenge killer. The only form of priority Thundurus is weak to is Ice Shard, and all that translates to is "Okay, Thundurus sweeps my opponent's team if I kill his Mamoswine." Again, Thundurus isn't asking for a lot.

And obviously Electric-immune Pokemon are a problem, but that's what Thundurus has HP Ice/Focus Blast/Grass Knot/teammates for.

Maybe if Thundurus didn't scream "I'm going to use Thunder or use a boost/sub" every time it came in, then it could be a threat. For example, look at Zapdos. It actually has options. It can Roost, Sub, Heat Wave, Toxic, Roar, Agility then not die from 1 attack. I'm not saying Zapdos is better, but it is definitely not as easy to play around. That's saying something, considering Zapdos is UU.

What? If Thundurus is saying "I'm going to Thunder/Boost/Sub," you're opponent will need to take drastically different courses of action to reply to any of those possibilities. And Zapdos most certainly does not have options; it can use a specially defensive set to counter Tornadus-T and that's it. Zapdos is much easier to play around.

 

[Halcyon.]

Boltbeam coverage isn't even as good as everyone makes it out to be... Dark+Fighting or EdgeQuake is good.
Especially when the beam half is HP Ice -_-
Anything that resists/is immune to Thunder, has moderate bulk, or has priority, etc are all going to laugh off any of Thundurus's attacks... especially at +0
Maybe if Thundurus didn't scream "I'm going to use Thunder or use a boost/sub" every time it came in, then it could be a threat. For example, look at Zapdos. It actually has options. It can Roost, Sub, Heat Wave, Toxic, Roar, Agility then not die from 1 attack. I'm not saying Zapdos is better, but it is definitely not as easy to play around. That's saying something, considering Zapdos is UU.

I'm going to just have to respectfully disagree with everything you're saying. Thundurus-T is one of the most deadly sweepers/Scarfers/wall breakers in the OU tier. I've been using an expert belt set on my rain team and I have to say that it's absolutely destroys everything. But in early BW2, I used a Life Orb Agility set and had no problem sweeping teams. Look at what it does to Jirachi!

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunder vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 204-242 (50.49 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

And that's Timid, though Modest is better on the Agility set IMO. A clean 2HKO on one of the premiere special walls in the tier is pretty fantastic, I think.

Also, you said that it's priority weak...but only Ice Shard is super effective. BP and MP are resisted, while Aqua Jet and Extremespeed are neutral.

 

[G-Von]

Here's a list of all the Pokemon in OU who resist both Electric moves and Ice moves:

Magnezone? But FB would F*** it up pretty bad.

 

[Schpoonman]

252/252+ Politoed is a check. At the start of the match when it has taken zero damage. At the end of the match, when you are using DD Salamence as an end-game sweeper like you should be, Politoed is not a check.

 

[RabidChipmunk]

Magnezone? But FB would F*** it up pretty bad.

Whoops :x gotta fix that...

Still, I think my point still stands.

 

[youngjake93]

I didn't say it is priority weak. I just said that, like all agility users, priority ends the party.
That Jirachi, with Protect+Leftovers, doesn't look cleanly 2hkoed.

Also, you can just look at the moveset stats that were released. It has switch-ins ranging from fast, to bulky offensive, to bulky all forcing out or KOing Thundurus-T. Mamoswine, Weaville, Blissey, Terrakion, Latios, Kyurem-B, Chansey, Latias, and Alakazam are there.

There are plenty of other options including Ferrothorn and Umbreon that also would work just fine. Focus Blast only has a 50% chance of hitting twice and I'm not even sure these two are 2hkoed by it. Ferrothorn actually gets a stronger Gyro Ball from Thunder paralysis and Umbreon rebounds back paralysis with Synchronize while healing itself. So they would both love to switch in on Thunder.

 

[G-Von]

Whoops :x gotta fix that...

Still, I think my point still stands.

Yea you're right it does. Thundy-T is a big ass threat with the help of its troll-ass speed. I personally feel it is more suspect-worthy than Keldeo.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

It's a check in the respect it lives at full and revene kills... no? That calc only proves its not a counter imo since toed can RK, thus making it a shaky check.

That calc was of defensive Politoed only, though. Here's Scarftoed:

+1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 382-451 (118.63 - 140.06%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Specstoed:

+1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 382-451 (99.47 - 117.44%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO

Ergo, only defensive 'Toed can check Salamence, and only if it runs Ice Beam (admittedly, most do, but it's not extremely uncommon to run into one that doesn't... especially considering 65% of Politoeds used it and Ice Beam is a staple on Scarf/Specs Politoed who were not particularly uncommon). It also needs to be pretty healthy to do so, and I'm pretty sure your Politoed won't be at max for most of the battle.

Anyway...

Boltbeam coverage isn't even as good as everyone makes it out to be... Dark+Fighting or EdgeQuake is good.
Especially when the beam half is HP Ice -_-
Anything that resists/is immune to Thunder, has moderate bulk, or has priority, etc are all going to laugh off any of Thundurus's attacks... especially at +0
Maybe if Thundurus didn't scream "I'm going to use Thunder or use a boost/sub" every time it came in, then it could be a threat. For example, look at Zapdos. It actually has options. It can Roost, Sub, Heat Wave, Toxic, Roar, Agility then not die from 1 attack. I'm not saying Zapdos is better, but it is definitely not as easy to play around. That's saying something, considering Zapdos is UU.

The only relevant OU pokes that resist BoltBeam are Magnezone and Thick Fat Mamoswine, both of whom are slaughtered by Focus Blast if they're actually greedy enough to switch in. Thunder coming off of 145 base SpA is also going to hit like a truck, so have fun switching non-resists in on it unless they're fat and pink. A lot of the stuff that resists Thunder are weak to HP Ice, so I wouldn't say they'd laugh off all of its attacks.

Also, I'm sorry, but did you actually just suggest Umbreon in an OU thread? No offense, but that alone should invalidate your argument.

 

[youngjake93]

I mentioned Umbreon because Umbreon is good. It sure as heck is a much better special wall than the pink blobs everyone mentions. I've used it a lot and it does wonders against Thundurus-T. Landorus-I is the only special threat that actually gave it trouble.. who by the way is much better than Thundurus-T.
HP Ice is pitifully weak. Latias, for example, can boost in the face of Thundurus-T.

 

[Halcyon.]

I mentioned Umbreon because Umbreon is good. It sure as heck is a much better special wall than the pink blobs everyone mentions. I've used it a lot and it does wonders against Thundurus-T. Landorus-I is the only special threat that actually gave it trouble.. who by the way is much better than Thundurus-T.
HP Ice is pitifully weak. Latias, for example, can boost in the face of Thundurus-T.

Ok, no Umbreon is NOT better than Chansey or Blissey. Even if it were better, it still doesn't mean squat. Yes, they counter Thundurus-T, so what? Pokemon have counters. Landorus-I can't hurt Latias either. Neither can Breloom. Does that make those bad Pokemon too? No, it doesn't. Base 145 SpA and 101 speed make him a fantastic Pokemon, especially when he can spam a move with the same base power as Hurricane. I don't think you've ever used him, or you wouldn't be making these absurd claims.

 

[youngjake93]

You can spam a move with the same base power as Hurricane, that doesn't mean that its a good move to spam..
Hurricane is resisted by rock, steel, and electric. Electric pokemon aren't very bulky and hardly present in OU. SDef Rotom tries to be, but gets worn down over time. Rock and steel are weak to Focus Blast/Superpower/Heat Wave in the case of Tornadus-T.

Thunder is resisted by Electric, Grass and Dragon. It also does zero damage to Ground and heals Volt Absorbers, boosts Lightningrod users and even boosts Cell Batter users(even though no one would use it). Your secondary option is HP Ice. It isn't scoring you any KOs on grass types as it sucks and grass types in OU have bulk. It isn't even SE against Electric, so that's a waste. So does it help against dragons? Well.. Dragonite has Multiscale+Espeed, Mence is always scarfed or +1, Lati@s lols at it, Garchomp outspeeds and comes out with zero damage if switched in on Thunder, and Kyurem-B+Kingdra don't care about HP Ice. Meh..... why is it that I can come up with a thousand ways to deal with something everyone thinks is a threat?


Edit: Oh and Umbreon IS better than Chansey/Blissey. They have no offensive presence and mediocre support options. 350 HP wishes are overrated, that's like the average TOTAL HP for a Pokemon. What are you going to switch in your 1 HP Pokemon in on an obvious attack? Thunder Wave is decent, but hogs a moveslot. Toxic is bad in this fast-paced meta and Seismic Toss is a joke.
Umbreon has Foul Play and Payback. The first of which usually doing a very nice hunk of damage. Synchronize is a great counter to status moves, IMO better than Natural Cure. Plus dat Heal Bell. Umbreon's typing actually gives it 2 resistances and an immunity for more switch-in potential. It has the benefit of having leftovers recovery and not being obliterated on the physical side. It just all around is a much nicer option.

 

[Halcyon.]

You can spam a move with the same base power as Hurricane, that doesn't mean that its a good move to spam..
Hurricane is resisted by rock, steel, and electric. Electric pokemon aren't very bulky and hardly present in OU. SDef Rotom tries to be, but gets worn down over time. Rock and steel are weak to Focus Blast/Superpower/Heat Wave in the case of Tornadus-T.

Thunder is resisted by Electric, Grass and Dragon. It also does zero damage to Ground and heals Volt Absorbers, boosts Lightningrod users and even boosts Cell Batter users(even though no one would use it). Your secondary option is HP Ice. It isn't scoring you any KOs on grass types as it sucks and grass types in OU have bulk. It isn't even SE against Electric, so that's a waste. So does it help against dragons? Well.. Dragonite has Multiscale+Espeed, Mence is always scarfed or +1, Lati@s lols at it, Garchomp outspeeds and comes out with zero damage if switched in on Thunder, and Kyurem-B+Kingdra don't care about HP Ice. Meh..... why is it that I can come up with a thousand ways to deal with something everyone thinks is a threat?


Edit: Oh and Umbreon IS better than Chansey/Blissey. They have no offensive presence and mediocre support options. 350 HP wishes are overrated, that's like the average TOTAL HP for a Pokemon. What are you going to switch in your 1 HP Pokemon in on an obvious attack? Thunder Wave is decent, but hogs a moveslot. Toxic is bad in this fast-paced meta and Seismic Toss is a joke.
Umbreon has Foul Play and Payback. The first of which usually doing a very nice hunk of damage. Synchronize is a great counter to status moves, IMO better than Natural Cure. Plus dat Heal Bell. Umbreon's typing actually gives it 2 resistances and an immunity for more switch-in potential. It has the benefit of having leftovers recovery and not being obliterated on the physical side. It just all around is a much nicer option.

You're talking about a Pokemon with base 145 special attack and speed that lets him outspeed Salamence, the pixies, Volcarona, etc. Do you know how ridiculously powerful that is? You mentioned Kyruem-B and Kingdra. Take a look at these:

252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 442-523 (97.35 - 115.19%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunder vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 317-374 (105.66 - 124.66%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So Thundurus-T doesn't NEED HP Ice for those guys.

I just typed the Modest Agility set into Honko's calculator's One vs All function. Wanna know what can wall him best? The poke that takes the LEAST damage from his attacks is Blissey, and here's how much he can do:

252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 237-281 (36.34 - 43.09%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

That's a special Pokemon getting a CLEAN 3HKO on BLISSEY, THE BIG BAD GRANDMA OF SPECIAL WALLS.

Also, for the lulz...

252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 244-289 (61.92 - 73.35%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

It has a chance to OHKO Umbreon after SR and three layers of spikes...

 

[RabidChipmunk]

I mentioned Umbreon because Umbreon is good. It sure as heck is a much better special wall than the pink blobs everyone mentions.

No... no, no it's really not.

HP Ice is pitifully weak. Latias, for example, can boost in the face of Thundurus-T.

How is this even an argument? Latias boosts in the face of a lot of special attackers; that doesn't make Thundurus-T bad. And nothing coming off of base 145 SpA is "pitifully weak."

Also:
252 SpAtk Life Orb Thundurus-T (+SpAtk) Hidden Power Ice vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Latias: 52.2% - 60.99% (2 hits to KO after Stealth Rock)

Might wanna be careful about switching Latias in on that, especially if Thundurus has already nabbed an Agility.

 

[Antihaxxer]

Here's a list of all the Pokemon in OU who resist both Electric moves and Ice moves:

-Magnezone.

- Mamoswine @ Thick Fat

 

[Bent1ey]

I suppose he doesn't count Lanturn and Seaking :p

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I suppose he doesn't count Lanturn and Seaking :p

Well, they do count, but them (and Magneton, Shedinja, etc.) are basically irrelevent in OU.

 

[Schpoonman]

We're thinking more along the lines of OU-viable Pokémon.

 

[ClubbingSealCub]

We're thinking more along the lines of OU-viable Pokémon.

Lanturn is perfectly viable in OU; it shits all over rain

just check Jimbon's "Weird Fish" RMT.

 

[Vemane]

Maybe if Thundurus didn't scream "I'm going to use Thunder or use a boost/sub" every time it came in, then it could be a threat.

Let's just take a moment to address this with a few analogies, shall we?

Maybe if Mew didn't scream "I'm going to use TM (insert # here)" every time it came in, then it could be a threat.

Maybe if Acreus didn't scream "I'm going to use Swords Dance or Extremespeed" every time it came in, then it could be a threat.

Maybe if Terrakion didn't scream "I'm going to use close combat, or stone edge, or sub, or swords dance, or maybe even x-scizzor" every time it came in, then it could be a threat.

Maybe if...

 

[blitzlefan]

I mentioned Umbreon because Umbreon is good. It sure as heck is a much better special wall than the pink blobs everyone mentions. I've used it a lot and it does wonders against Thundurus-T. Landorus-I is the only special threat that actually gave it trouble.. who by the way is much better than Thundurus-T.
HP Ice is pitifully weak. Latias, for example, can boost in the face of Thundurus-T.

ummm... there's a reason why Blissey is OU and Umbreon is UU. I'm not just saying usage determines viability, but Blissey's ridiculous bulk makes it a very good poke. Furthermore, Blissey can come in and fuck with weaker scarf mons, as it takes piddly damage from a LOT of unboosted moves, forcing switches to rack up hazards damamge or stalling out choice locked PP. Don't hate on Blissey's wish either. Healing a recipient's HP to the max is extremely useful, as it gives set-up sweepers/revenge killers/people you NEED a second wind and a chance to regain momentum. Also, Blissey has a ridiculous support movepool (status, heal bell, SR) and it's a LOT better than Umbreon.

 

[Bent1ey]

Let's just take a moment to address this with a few analogies, shall we?

Maybe if Mew didn't scream "I'm going to use TM (insert # here)" every time it came in, then it could be a threat.

Maybe if Acreus didn't scream "I'm going to use Swords Dance or Extremespeed" every time it came in, then it could be a threat.

Maybe if Terrakion didn't scream "I'm going to use close combat, or stone edge, or sub, or swords dance, or maybe even x-scizzor" every time it came in, then it could be a threat.

Maybe if...

Those analogies are truly terrible :)

 

[youngjake93]

Let's just take a moment to address this with a few analogies, shall we?

Maybe if Mew didn't scream "I'm going to use TM (insert # here)" every time it came in, then it could be a threat.

Maybe if Acreus didn't scream "I'm going to use Swords Dance or Extremespeed" every time it came in, then it could be a threat.

Maybe if Terrakion didn't scream "I'm going to use close combat, or stone edge, or sub, or swords dance, or maybe even x-scizzor" every time it came in, then it could be a threat.

Maybe if...

Terrakion was a horrible analogy... the others were bad too. For thunder, sub and boosting moves, it is as simple as switching in a resist, faster pokemon, or bulky pokemon to handle any of the situations. That's a whole lot of options. Terrakion can KO you with one of its attacks, predict the switch and KO that with the appropriate move, play safe against the switch with sub and hit with the appropriate powerful STAB, Terrakion has enough bulk+resists to actually rock polish/swords dance effectively, etc.

Terrakion is a good pokemon that has the tools to be a threat in every situation. Thundurus-T is 'good' for one powerful STAB that has 70% accuracy outside of rain, has horrible coverage, and even does zero or -25% damage sometimes -_-

The Mew comment was just retarded. Oh Mew is going to do a move or switch out, derr I know exactly how to react! No. The point was predictability and ease of dealing with it. Thundurus-T is predictable and easy to deal with. I don't care if it has 170 sAtt, its STAB is horrible and easy to play around, and has no bulk to make room for error.

 

[blitzlefan]

Terrakion was a horrible analogy... the others were bad too. For thunder, sub and boosting moves, it is as simple as switching in a resist, faster pokemon, or bulky pokemon to handle any of the situations. That's a whole lot of options. Terrakion can KO you with one of its attacks, predict the switch and KO that with the appropriate move, play safe against the switch with sub and hit with the appropriate powerful STAB, Terrakion has enough bulk+resists to actually rock polish/swords dance effectively, etc.

Terrakion is a good pokemon that has the tools to be a threat in every situation. Thundurus-T is 'good' for one powerful STAB that has 70% accuracy outside of rain, has horrible coverage, and even does zero or -25% damage sometimes -_-

The Mew comment was just retarded. Oh Mew is going to do a move or switch out, derr I know exactly how to react! No. The point was predictability and ease of dealing with it. Thundurus-T is predictable and easy to deal with. I don't care if it has 170 sAtt, its STAB is horrible and easy to play around, and has no bulk to make room for error.

Predictability isn't necessarily bad. Just look at the Torn-T ban thread. It's established that Torn-T is EXTREMELY predictable. (Hurricane, Hurricane, Hurricane, Hurricane, Hurricane.. oh SHIT a counter --> U-Turn). HOWEVER, it's still fairly difficult to counter. Jolteon is in the same boat. What's it got for coverage? Shadow ball? HP Ice? It's PROBABLY gonna use Thunderbolt/Thunder! HOWEVER, though predictable, it's VERY effective. Let's look at Kyurem-B. Very high Atk, fairly mediocre Spe. What's it gonna do? Obviously, spam Outrage. Would you expect anything else, really? Yes, you can send a Steel type, but it's still gonna get hammered by Outrage. Ever been swept by any of these pokes? Chances are, yes. Predictable, yes. As bad as you make it out to be, no.

Obviously, Thundurus-T isn't the best pokemon in the OU metagame. In most aspects, it's inferior to its Incarnate counterpart. That doesn't make it a shitmon, honestly. It has it's uses in OU, or obviously it wouldn't be here. Maybe with the advent of Gen VI, it'll drop, but as for the moment, it's a fairly good poke.

 

[Halcyon.]

Terrakion was a horrible analogy... the others were bad too. For thunder, sub and boosting moves, it is as simple as switching in a resist, faster pokemon, or bulky pokemon to handle any of the situations. That's a whole lot of options. Terrakion can KO you with one of its attacks, predict the switch and KO that with the appropriate move, play safe against the switch with sub and hit with the appropriate powerful STAB, Terrakion has enough bulk+resists to actually rock polish/swords dance effectively, etc.

Terrakion is a good pokemon that has the tools to be a threat in every situation. Thundurus-T is 'good' for one powerful STAB that has 70% accuracy outside of rain, has horrible coverage, and even does zero or -25% damage sometimes -_-

The Mew comment was just retarded. Oh Mew is going to do a move or switch out, derr I know exactly how to react! No. The point was predictability and ease of dealing with it. Thundurus-T is predictable and easy to deal with. I don't care if it has 170 sAtt, its STAB is horrible and easy to play around, and has no bulk to make room for error.

Predictable=|=bad. As previously stated, there are plenty of predictable Pokemon out there that still demolish everything in their paths. Look at Blaziken! All he ever did was Protect->Swords Dance->Flare Blitz/High Jump Kick, but he was still broken.

Plus, you keep saying that Electric is a bad STAB...in a metagame FILLED with rain teams that carry HUGE weaknesses to Thundurus-T. Look at the standard rain team: Politoed, Keldeo, Tornadus-T, Ferrothorn, Tentacruel, Dugtrio. First of all, most of those guys are weak to electric, and ALL of them are weak to any of Thundurus-T's coverage moves. How many other rain threats are there? Dragonite? KOed by HP Ice after Stealth Rock. Toxicroak? KOed by Thunder. Starmie? Please. Garchomp? KOed by HP Ice. Scizor? OHKOed by Thunder and can't do jack back to Thundurus. Gastrodon and Mamoswine are checks to him, but both are KOed by the appropriate coverage move, and neither can switch in on him unless they predict a Thunder correctly. Focus Blast knocks them both out of the park. Seriously, what more could you ask for in a Pokemon? Put him on your rain team to counter other rain teams (like I have)!