Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[Magcargo]

Ok, yeah I would agree with that. But I would say that about any Water/Ground type, since that can sometimes screw with your team if you don't have a grass type. Quagsire is in the same boat, and he's in D tier. Like I said before, so many teams have Grass types that make Gastrodon irrelevant. Without a Storm Drain boost (and even with one), Gatrodon can't 2HKO Celebi (even offensive sets) or Venusaur, and can't OHKO Breloom. Then he just becomes setup fodder for them. Plus, most don't have Scald/Ice Beam/Earth Power/Recover because Toxic is usually in there somewhere which means that you're adding to the number of things that can beat Gastrodon. Obviously you won't know which moves your opponent is running, and playing carelessly could cost you, but I don't think its offensive (or even really defensive) presence is great enough to warrant B tier. Oh, and Psyshock from Life Orb or Specs Latios is a clean 2HKO, as is Draco Meteor from the Specs version, so it isn't really a good counter to him.

Gastrodon can counter some top tier pokemon like special dragonite. Gastrodon is usually seen on a rain team, but can function in the sun as well.
Grass types are the bane of water/ground types, but the only common ones can easily be handled by sun teams. Some water types have to run a grass type move just to get past gastrodon. Access to recover give gastrodon an edge over other walls like ferrothorn and forretress as he can stay in battle longer. Pairing him up with a wall like ferrothorn can give your team the ability to beat most special attackers. Gastrodon is a very useful pokemon if used correctly.

 

[Jukain]

Gastrodon can counter some top tier pokemon like special dragonite.

Special Dragonite is not in any way a top tier Pokemon, lol. There's one viable fully special set, and it's defensively-orientated. On Gastrodon itself, it just isn't really that good anymore. All the big rain threats can beat it, with Thundurus-T commonly running Grass Knot and Keldeo having Secret Sword. It can beat a few rain threats, but for the most part, I've found it ineffective in this metagame.

 

[Halcyon.]

Gastrodon can counter some top tier pokemon like special dragonite. Gastrodon is usually seen on a rain team, but can function in the sun as well.
Grass types are the bane of water/ground types, but the only common ones can easily be handled by sun teams. Some water types have to run a grass type move just to get past gastrodon. Access to recover give gastrodon an edge over other walls like ferrothorn and forretress as he can stay in battle longer. Pairing him up with a wall like ferrothorn can give your team the ability to beat most special attackers. Gastrodon is a very useful pokemon if used correctly.

Honestly, I can't really see a reason to use Gastrodon with Ferrothorn over Tentacruel or Jellicent. Obviously Gastrodon still has its uses, but it just seems outclassed to me. Honestly, the only thing I can see it being used for is a rain counter on sand teams, being able to counter Politoed without HP Grass, but Gastrodon can't really do much else back to Politoed outside of Toxic or maybe a +1 Earth Power, which has an 87% chance of 3HKOing. Honestly though, Gastrodon isn't terrible, but I wouldn't put him with great walls like Jellicent, Tentacruel, Skarmory, and Gliscor, which all provide something else besides walling to the table (spin blocking, spinning, hazards/phazing, and good toxic-ing, respectively) I would much rather he be with walls like Slowbro/king, Vaporeon, Roserade, etc in the C tier. Don't you think Gastrodon is more on their level and not quite at the B tier level?

 

[Schpoonman]

Gastrodon was certainly more useful in BW1. I avoided using "viable" there because Storm Drain is still Storm Drain, but there's a lot of stuff that isn't stopped as hard anymore.

 

[Sam]

I'd like to nominate Crobat to at least be on this list somewhere, I'd say B-rank although that may be a bit of a stretch. It's an amazing wallbreaker with a super fast taunt, reliable recovery, great defensive typing (except the weakness to rocks of course), and offensive movepool (I usually run Brave Bird and Super Fang in the other slots). I tend to max out HP and put enough in Speed to outspeed max base 120's while throwing the rest in Atk. It can take on Skarm, Hippo, blobs, and others one-on-one while also being a decent offsensive check to fast, frailer threats (think Latios, Gengar, Starmie, etc). It's pretty good.

 

[gengarsnemisis]

Please, please, drop gastrodon to at least C rank! (I'd argue D but I'm not gonna push my luck). Gastrodon, is one of the worst ou mons' in my opinion, terrible stats, the offensive sets are extremely weak and far too slow to be affective and the defensive set is lackluster,at best. Storm drain is cool and all, but switching into a hydro pump is about as predictable as you can get, and most rain mons' coverage moves 2hk0s it anyways. It cant even counter thundyt that well as many carry grass knot.

On a side note, my moneys on gastrodon not making the ou cutoff this month (not implying usage matters, just saying)

 

[Smilodon]

It cant even counter thundyt that well as many carry grass knot.

Well, I'm quite surprised by this argument.
Thundurus has to run an electric attack and HP ice for coverage.

Then, if he's choiced, he will often use Volt-Switch, if he's not, he will most of the time have Nasty Plot or Agility.

And for the last move... Ferothorn, Heatran, or Magnezone are far more threatening than Gastrodon alone, so Focus Blast really seems more useful.

I wouldn't say Grass Not is never used, but it seems hard to fit.

 

[Halcyon.]

Well, I'm quite surprised by this argument.
Thundurus has to run an electric attack and HP ice for coverage.

Then, if he's choiced, he will often use Volt-Switch, if he's not, he will most of the time have Nasty Plot or Agility.

And for the last move... Ferothorn, Heatran, or Magnezone are far more threatening than Gastrodon alone, so Focus Blast really seems more useful.

I wouldn't say Grass Not is never used, but it seems hard to fit.

Yeah Grass Knot isn't exactly a staple on Thundurus-T's sets, but it is an option (however rare) and when the Pokémon you're famous for walling has the option to beat you, it becomes a problem. Think Heatran with Genesect. Probably the best counter to him at the time, but he could be beaten with HP Ground. Walling one Pokémon some of the time doesn't make Gastrodon a B tier threat.

 

[Magcargo]

Honestly, I can't really see a reason to use Gastrodon with Ferrothorn over Tentacruel or Jellicent. Obviously Gastrodon still has its uses, but it just seems outclassed to me. Honestly, the only thing I can see it being used for is a rain counter on sand teams, being able to counter Politoed without HP Grass, but Gastrodon can't really do much else back to Politoed outside of Toxic or maybe a +1 Earth Power, which has an 87% chance of 3HKOing. Honestly though, Gastrodon isn't terrible, but I wouldn't put him with great walls like Jellicent, Tentacruel, Skarmory, and Gliscor, which all provide something else besides walling to the table (spin blocking, spinning, hazards/phazing, and good toxic-ing, respectively) I would much rather he be with walls like Slowbro/king, Vaporeon, Roserade, etc in the C tier. Don't you think Gastrodon is more on their level and not quite at the B tier level?

Gastrodon does great against most weather inducers bar ninetales and abomnasnow. It's special attack is also better than jellicent and tentacruel. Gastrodon can definetly go offensive because of storm drain and permanent rain being common. A choice specs +1 gastrodon can 2HKO bulky politoed with earthpower even without SR. Gastrodon also has clear smog, meaning that it can remove to foes stat changes as well. Gastrodon should remain in low B-rank.

 

[PK Gaming]

Right

============================
Amoongus added to B-tier
Gastrodon down from B-tier ==> C-tier
Staraptor down from C-tier ==> D-tier
Heracross up from D-tier ==> C-tier
============================

• I've been wanting to add Amoongus to this thread for a while now, but I always ended up forgetting about it.
• Gastrodon hasn't been good for a while now, so down it goes. No reason to keep Staraptor in C-tier either, since the people who've actually used it don't support it and it doesn't seem very good in retrospect.
• Lastly, i'm going to throw Heracross users a bone and move it to C-tier because I think it can legitimately do some damage, despite its meh speed. Dat typing owns.

 

[Halcyon.]

Those are all great changes. I would also like to add Nidoking to this list, probably in the D tier. Nidoking has one major problem. It's either too slow or not quite strong enough. Sheer Force + Life Orb makes him an extremely powerful threat, but it's lackluster base 80 speed leaves it pretty open to revenge killing. Also, with the Scarf set, which is a pretty good revenge killer, he might not hit hard enough all the time. But that's not to say that Nidoking doesn't do work. With paralysis support, Nidoking can rip through teams with his perfect coverage. The Choice Scarf set can be an effective revenge killer for things like Dragonite, Garchomp, Thundurus-T, Tornadus, and others as long as they are not also Scarfed. So yeah, he's not the best, but he can work with enough support.

EDIT: Also, PK Amoongus is already on the list in the C tier so make sure you remove him from there because right now he's in both.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

I agree with whoever said Crobat should be included. I'm not really sure about B tier, but it needs to be at least C tier. The sheer speed it can run around with while maintaining a bit of bulk and a bit of power, both more than expected. It is outclassed as a breloom counter by celebi, but has an amazing 4x fighting resistance as well as taunt + brave bird to mess up some stuff on the opponent's field. It should be at least considered to have a spot in OU.

 

[Magcargo]

Well, I lost the arguement for gastrodon, but I have a new suggestion of creating an E-Rank. I mean some pokemon get consistent usage, despite not having a niche. I suggest adding electivire and flygon in this rank if it is created.

 

[Sacaen]

Those are all great changes. I would also like to add Nidoking to this list, probably in the D tier. Nidoking has one major problem. It's either too slow or not quite strong enough. Sheer Force + Life Orb makes him an extremely powerful threat, but it's lackluster base 80 speed leaves it pretty open to revenge killing. Also, with the Scarf set, which is a pretty good revenge killer, he might not hit hard enough all the time. But that's not to say that Nidoking doesn't do work. With paralysis support, Nidoking can rip through teams with his perfect coverage. The Choice Scarf set can be an effective revenge killer for things like Dragonite, Garchomp, Thundurus-T, Tornadus, and others as long as they are not also Scarfed. So yeah, he's not the best, but he can work with enough support.

Nidoking is also arguably one of the best smashpass/quiverpass receivers out there. With a shell smash under his belt he can reach an impressive 538 Speed with a modest nature which outspeeds everything including and up to Scarfed base 110s. And while he does have a weakness to ice shard(Mamo's adamant life orb ice shard does 77.22-91.08%), he does have a nice resistance to mach punch. On top of that his incredible coverage means the opponent will struggle to switch something in that doesnt take a super effective hit. 622 SpA after a shell smash + life orb + sheer force is nothing to laugh at.

He is also quite lucky in that he has a very rare typing that gives him an immunity to thunderwave and toxic, a stealth rock resistance, and being a special attacker he doesnt really care about burns that much either, making him quite difficult to wear down or stop with an untimely twave.

Edit: Some calcs to show just how powerful Nidoking is after a shellsmash pass. These are some of the bulkiest special walls in the tier, that Nidoking can rip apart after a SS. Chansey and Blissey are really the only ones that put a full stop to Nidoking.

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+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-D: 270-320 (88.81 - 105.26%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO

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252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Quagsire: 192-227 (48.73 - 57.61%) -- 54.69% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 460-543 (126.37 - 149.17%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 411-486 (101.73 - 120.29%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W: 201-238 (66.33 - 78.54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 273-322 (84.52 - 99.69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (assuming air balloon)
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 239-282 (36.65 - 43.25%) -- 99.39% chance to 3HKO

 

[Halcyon.]

Nidoking is also arguably one of the best smashpass/quiverpass receivers out there. With a shell smash under his belt he can reach an impressive 538 Speed with a modest nature which outspeeds everything including and up to Scarfed base 110s. And while he does have a weakness to ice shard(Mamo's adamant life orb ice shard does 77.22-91.08%), he does have a nice resistance to mach punch. On top of that his incredible coverage means the opponent will struggle to switch something in that doesnt take a super effective hit. 622 SpA after a shell smash + life orb + sheer force is nothing to laugh at.

He is also quite lucky in that he has a very rare typing that gives him an immunity to thunderwave and toxic, a stealth rock resistance, and being a special attacker he doesnt really care about burns that much either, making him quite difficult to wear down or stop with an untimely twave.

I totally agree. I once used him on a Smash Pass team, and he was an absolute monster. But I would consider Smash Pass "excessive" support, which is why I think he should be D tier. Point is, though, he can be used in OU and deserves a spot somewhere on this list.

 

[Magcargo]

Nidoqueen is just as good as nidoking, so she should be added as well. Her bulk is better than nidoking, allowing her to counter terrakion and a few other fighting types. Venasuar can't do a single thing to nidoqueen unless it runs earthquake. She can set up t-spikes and has great special attack for a wall (if you include sheer force).
EDIT: Also, what is gyarados's niche in the metagame? I love gyarados, but I don't see his niche over dragonite or salamence. Also how come you never moved conkeldurr up from C-rank PK gaming? Most people supported the idea of moving it up.

 

[Kentucky Fried Colonel]

Am I the only one who doesn't get why Deoxys-D is that good? I've used it before and it just really doesn't cut it. It has one role and one role only and that's to be an entry hazard lead. It's complete set-up bait and if the opponent has and Espeon or Xatu, you might as well be playing a Pokemon down. It's also not that hard for smart players to take out a Deoxys-D with the ever-present threat of Scizor waiting to U-turn out or possible Bug Bite it. And then it has psychic typing so a Tyranitar or, once again, Scizor can just pursuit trap it. This thing gets stomped by the most common pokemon in OU. Do you really want to be using it? It really is just a decent pokemon and people are using it too much. I believe it should be in tier A or B.

 

[Magcargo]

Am I the only one who doesn't get why Deoxys-D is that good? I've used it before and it just really doesn't cut it. It has one role and one role only and that's to be an entry hazard lead. It's complete set-up bait and if the opponent has and Espeon or Xatu, you might as well be playing a Pokemon down. It's also not that hard for smart players to take out a Deoxys-D with the ever-present threat of Scizor waiting to U-turn out or possible Bug Bite it. And then it has psychic typing so a Tyranitar or, once again, Scizor can just pursuit trap it. This thing gets stomped by the most common pokemon in OU. Do you really want to be using it? It really is just a decent pokemon and people are using it too much. I believe it should be in tier A or B.

I've used Deoxys-D and it was a perfect addition to my team. I suprised the foes rapid spinner tentacreul with psycho boost and took it out. It is so versatile that most of it's counters can be defeated. And it isn't complete setup bait because of the offensive variants. And Thunder does a huge amount of damage to xatu.Deoxys-D is definetly an S-rank pokemon because it makes weatherless teams more viable and is a full proof way of getting entry hazards up.. Scizor gets destroyed by HP fire and deoxys can get at least one layer of spikes or SR because tyranitar is slower. It isn't being used that much for some reason, being lower than infernape.

 

[False Sense]

Deoxys-D is definetly an S-rank pokemon because it makes weatherless teams viable.

I'd disagree with this; Weatherless teams most certainly DO NOT rely on Deoxys-D to be good, and that is definitely not why Deoxys-D is S-Rank. It's S-Rank because it's basically a foolproof way of getting hazards up for your teammates, thanks to it's good bulk and decent speed. On top of this, it has the versatility to beat pretty much all of it's counters with the proper moveset; even Espeon/Xatu can be rendered useless with Skill Swap. It can't do it all at once, but you can tailor it to suit whatever your team needs.

 

[IcyMan28]

Also, what is gyarados's niche in the metagame? I love gyarados, but I don't see his niche over dragonite or salamence. Also how come you never moved conkeldurr up from C-rank PK gaming? Most people supported the idea of moving it up.

I see Gyarados as a sort of mix between Salamence and Dragonite. Its typing affords it valuable resistances (some very similar to the dragons), while it has the bulk to check and set up on various threats. It has good coverage with its STABs alone, and is also capable of taking advantage of rain for a 100% accurate, drawback-free STAB attack that can cause potential flinching. With Intimidate, it ends up being bulkier than Dragonite as it comes in, while Moxie allows it to achieve the same snowball effect as Salamence if given the chance. Its weaknesses are also more limited than the other two, IMO.

 

[Kentucky Fried Colonel]

I've used Deoxys-D and it was a perfect addition to my team. I suprised the foes rapid spinner tentacreul with psycho boost and took it out. It is so versatile that most of it's counters can be defeated. And it isn't complete setup bait because of the rare skillswap. Also, thunder does a huge amount of damae to xatu. Deoxys-D is definetly an S-rank pokemon because it makes weatherless teams viable. Also, It isn't being used that much for some reason, being lower than infernape.

While those are good points, how often is an offensive set run on Deoxys-D. Like you said, skill swap is rare, and the only Deoxys-D's I've ever seen run are the standard double hazard, taunt plus either magic coat or night shade. I've never seen a Deoxys-D even attack me for that matter. And even with those giant defenses, it still has pretty low HP. And once again, the most common OU Pokemon, Scizor, is going to destroy it, so unless you carrying HP fire, your Deoxys-D is gone.

 

[Magcargo]

While those are good points, how often is an offensive set run on Deoxys-D. Like you said, skill swap is rare, and the only Deoxys-D's I've ever seen run are the standard double hazard, taunt plus either magic coat or night shade. I've never seen a Deoxys-D even attack me for that matter. And even with those giant defenses, it still has pretty low HP. And once again, the most common OU Pokemon, Scizor, is going to destroy it, so unless you carrying HP fire, your Deoxys-D is gone.

Deoxys can still get up at least one hazard against Scizor, so it still does some work. Offensive deoxys-D is actually very viable, being able to OHKO haxorous, Salamence after SR and terrakion. HP fire will destroy scizor and forretress as well as doing a huge amount of damage to ferrothorn. Also, espeon and xatu are relitively rare and are easy to deal with. Deoxys-D is so versatile, that it has no real counters that prevent is from doing it's job. Against deoxys-D, you will have to predict weather a pokemon is really a check or counter because on slip up and the foe gets a free layer of entry hazards up.

Also, Thanks for explain gyarados's niche to me, Icyman.

 

[butterfingers158]

While those are good points, how often is an offensive set run on Deoxys-D. Like you said, skill swap is rare, and the only Deoxys-D's I've ever seen run are the standard double hazard, taunt plus either magic coat or night shade. I've never seen a Deoxys-D even attack me for that matter. And even with those giant defenses, it still has pretty low HP. And once again, the most common OU Pokemon, Scizor, is going to destroy it, so unless you carrying HP fire, your Deoxys-D is gone.

It's generally used as a suicide lead to get up Stealth Rock+ a layer of Spikes or 2 and to deny you from doing the same.

The hazards it puts up make some already scary sweepers a nightmare to face, and teams that feature it are generally built with the understanding that Deoxys-D isn't going to be around for more than 5 turns at the most.

 

[RabidChipmunk]

While those are good points, how often is an offensive set run on Deoxys-D. Like you said, skill swap is rare, and the only Deoxys-D's I've ever seen run are the standard double hazard, taunt plus either magic coat or night shade. I've never seen a Deoxys-D even attack me for that matter. And even with those giant defenses, it still has pretty low HP. And once again, the most common OU Pokemon, Scizor, is going to destroy it, so unless you carrying HP fire, your Deoxys-D is gone.

And that's the point. Deoxys-D is a suicide lead. His job is to set up hazards until the opponent kills him, at which point he's done his job. In the same way that Politoed is S-Rank because it's what makes rain-based playstyles viable, Deoxys-D is S-Rank because it's what makes the Hyper Offense playstyle viable.

 

[Takion]

IF Deo-D were to get banned, what pokemons would become more viable? Could this mean Aerodactyl and Azelf moving up a rank?