I doubt it. A tier at best. Without rain he is kinda screwed. Tyranitar and hippo should stay A, they rule. Breloom should be S, though. Techniloom is SO freaking good...
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OU The OU Viability Ranking thread
- Thread starter PK Gaming
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I doubt it. A tier at best. Without rain he is kinda screwed. Tyranitar and hippo should stay A, they rule. Breloom should be S, though. Techniloom is SO freaking good...
Without rain he is not screwed. 70% accuraccy is plenty to work with - look at Focus Blast. I know it gets called "Focus Miss" more often than not, but everything uses it as a coverage move. Hurricane also has that 30% confusion chance.
T^2's Hurricane only gets boned if you run sun - but then he gets a powered up Heat Wave, and you can replace Hurricane with Air Slash (I know it has lower power, but the flinch rate + almost perfect accuraccy sort of make up for it).
On top of that, Tornadus also gets both Superpower / FB and U-turn, meaning mons that would be safe switch ins (Heatran, Tyranitar) can't really afford to switch at all. Especially if it's a LO version, because Torn-T is hella high on speed.
And to top it all off, the main thing that was keeping Tornadus-I "in check", stealth rock, is no longer a way to wear it down because lol Regenerator.
If Terrakion is in "S" rank, I can't see why Tornadus-T wouldn't. They are pretty similar, to be honest - both are pretty fast, hit very hard, have one or two safe switch-ins in OU, have great coverage in 2 moves. The only argument I could see is that Torn-T is a smidge more weather dependent, but on the plus side it's harder to worn down via hazards and gets U-turn, which is a big deal.
I do think he's S-tier material, but I could understand everyone else thinking he'd be more fit in the A-tier.
Techniloom is good, but nowhere near S-Rank material. It may fit into A more than I initially anticipated, but it just can't be S.
-Too many faster Pokemon resist Mach Punch
This is actually a very big deal. Dragonite, Gyarados, Lati@s, Landorus, Salamence, Thundurus-T, and Tornadus-T are examples. Unless these Pokemon are severely weakened, SD Techniloom is not sweeping, ever. Most teams nowadays tend to have at least two Fighting resists that outspeed Breloom, only making it worse.
-Bad offensive typing
Copy the list of Pokemon above. Remove Landorus and Gyarados. Add Volcarona. What do you get? A bunch of Pokemon that resist both of Breloom's STABs. Seeing as Stone Edge is typically only seen on CB Breloom, all of these Pokemon are viable checks.
Just these two points alone are enough to keep Breloom out of S rank in my honest opinion.
Torn-T is definitely on the cusp of S. As an offensive Pokemon, he fits the bill (requires little to no support. You can argue that Drizzle is huge support [it's the best support in the game], but he can supply rain by himself if he really wanted to) and if his base 110 attack was an issue he has several 120 base power attacks to abuse, one of which is STAB and has perfect accuracy in his weather of choice. Also: Regenerator. It's like if Terrakion or Latios got U-turn/Volt Switch.
Breloom is not S-tier. Very much A-tier, Spore + Poison Heal SubPunch/Techniloom is absolutely incredible, but there's too much that needs to be removed (basically everything faster than him that resists/is immune to Mach Punch, of which there are SO MANY) for him to be completely independent, which is what S-tier Pokémon are.
EDIT: Wow, ninja'd like a scrub.
Breloom is not S-tier. Very much A-tier, Spore + Poison Heal SubPunch/Techniloom is absolutely incredible, but there's too much that needs to be removed (basically everything faster than him that resists/is immune to Mach Punch, of which there are SO MANY) for him to be completely independent, which is what S-tier Pokémon are.
EDIT: Wow, ninja'd like a scrub.
Comparing Terrakion to Tornadus-T is not a really good idea. On a side, you have amazing STAB combination that gives epic coverage in two moves, Speed, weather-independance, huge raw power, usable set-up moves and even solid support options. Tornadus is, instead, HUGELY reliant on Rain (come on, using 70% accuracy moves (50% in Sun) as the only STAB is pretty bad without the accuracy buff), can basically run one single set so it's incredibly predictable, can't set up bar weird Acrobat sets, and gets destroyed by Genesect while Terrakion can somewhat handle it. Tornadus-T is perfect in A-Rank, but surely not in S!
Also, Tornadus-T has a much wider range of safe switch-ins than Terrakion (heck, we need Cresselia or Golurk to find something not 2HKO'd by Band Terrakion...): Specially Defensive Rotoms (-W and -H), Bronzong, Jirachi, Chansey, and also Specially Defensive Heatran if it's running Focus Miss (yeah another 30% miss coverage option, great!). Half of those are handled by Dugtrio, however requiring another poke to perform good (on top of mandatory Politoed) is not "little support" in my opinion.
While that is true, what Terrakion cannot do is U-turn out of those threats, getting the advantage while both dealing and recovering damage in the process. Bronzong and Jirachi are safe switch ins under the rain, but out of it they risk a heat wave (I know this is not very common, but it's still a possiblity).
Chansey can only take so many superpowers before it gets dropped, while Torn-T will keep recovering the damage.
It's not only about raw power - the fact that you -need- to take Tornadus-T out in one hit is also pretty big, because otherwise it'll keep healing just by switching out. Terrakion will deal a fuckload of damage to your team, but at least spikes will take a toll on it's health. It's also a lot easier to revenge with all the Mach / Bullet punches flying around. Tornadus, on the other hand, is not - 121 speed and resistance to mach punch means you'll only be able to revenge with Ice Shard, and Scizor's BP, but guess what, it'll just switch out and get its health up again.
Maybe I'm just exaggerating, but Tornadus-T is good. Really, really good.
I like the current version of the list, but have to support considerations for both Ninetales and Landorus-I in S tier.
Ninetales' support potential with Drought is easily on level with Deoxys-D's hazards support and Politoed's Drizzle support. You don't really have to "build for" Sandstream teams because there is only 1 good Sand Rusher left in OU and the limited distribution of Sheer Force allows for you to be mostly ok with just building with general threats in mind (you most likely have 1 or 2 Steel Pokemon on your team anyway).
However, if you don't specifically build for Rain Offense (Keldeo Tornadus-T / Thundurus-T specifically) and Sun Offense (Venusaur / Lilligant / Volcarona / Victini specifically), you WILL lose. I know Ninetales "sucks" outside of Drought, but I think Drought is literally enough to make it S tier. Think about when you ask for advice on teams...one of the most common responses are "Volc weak" and "Venu / Lilli weak." You have to explicitly plan to deal with multiple Chlorophyll users (Lilligant / Venusaur mainly, Victreebel / Sawsbuck occasionally), Choice Fire Stab (Victini / Darmanitan mainly, Infernape occasionally), and random sets like Air Balloon Flame Charge Heatran, otherwise, more often than not, you're losing. That express need to plan for various viable threats makes Ninetales S-tier in my mind.
Landorus-I on the other hand is simple. It can sweep you on the physical side...and it can sweep you on the special side. Life Orb Sand Force Swords Dance will wreck you...and if that doesn't, Life Orb Sheer Force special attacker will wreck you, and, o yea, both can have access to a +2 Speed move :P Honestly, when I see Landorus-I and Terrakion, I'm more scared of the Lando will do than what the Terra will do (though this might be some recent bias due to everyone and his mother running lead Sash Terrakion).
I think it is much more dangerous than other mixed attacking potential Pokemon for a few reasons. It differentiates itself from Lucario because it doesn't need boosts on the Special side to sweep, its in a better speed tier (outspeeding Salamence / Jirachi / Genesect is big), and it actually has enough bulk to take 1 hit. It differentiates itself from Salamence because it's most destructive moves (Sand Power Earthquake and Sheer Force Earth Power) don't lock it in (outrage) or lower its Special Attack (Draco Meteor).
Ninetales and Landorus-I for S-tier.
Ninetales' support potential with Drought is easily on level with Deoxys-D's hazards support and Politoed's Drizzle support. You don't really have to "build for" Sandstream teams because there is only 1 good Sand Rusher left in OU and the limited distribution of Sheer Force allows for you to be mostly ok with just building with general threats in mind (you most likely have 1 or 2 Steel Pokemon on your team anyway).
However, if you don't specifically build for Rain Offense (Keldeo Tornadus-T / Thundurus-T specifically) and Sun Offense (Venusaur / Lilligant / Volcarona / Victini specifically), you WILL lose. I know Ninetales "sucks" outside of Drought, but I think Drought is literally enough to make it S tier. Think about when you ask for advice on teams...one of the most common responses are "Volc weak" and "Venu / Lilli weak." You have to explicitly plan to deal with multiple Chlorophyll users (Lilligant / Venusaur mainly, Victreebel / Sawsbuck occasionally), Choice Fire Stab (Victini / Darmanitan mainly, Infernape occasionally), and random sets like Air Balloon Flame Charge Heatran, otherwise, more often than not, you're losing. That express need to plan for various viable threats makes Ninetales S-tier in my mind.
Landorus-I on the other hand is simple. It can sweep you on the physical side...and it can sweep you on the special side. Life Orb Sand Force Swords Dance will wreck you...and if that doesn't, Life Orb Sheer Force special attacker will wreck you, and, o yea, both can have access to a +2 Speed move :P Honestly, when I see Landorus-I and Terrakion, I'm more scared of the Lando will do than what the Terra will do (though this might be some recent bias due to everyone and his mother running lead Sash Terrakion).
I think it is much more dangerous than other mixed attacking potential Pokemon for a few reasons. It differentiates itself from Lucario because it doesn't need boosts on the Special side to sweep, its in a better speed tier (outspeeding Salamence / Jirachi / Genesect is big), and it actually has enough bulk to take 1 hit. It differentiates itself from Salamence because it's most destructive moves (Sand Power Earthquake and Sheer Force Earth Power) don't lock it in (outrage) or lower its Special Attack (Draco Meteor).
Ninetales and Landorus-I for S-tier.
@ganj4lf
I don't agree at all that Torn-T has a much wider range of safe switch-ins in comparison to Terrakion. For Torn-T there are Jirachi, Rotom-W, Rotom-H, Bronzong, Metagross, Zapdos and i thinks that's it. Heatran is not a safe switch in. It gets 2HKOed by Superpower if it is SpDefensive, and if offensive it can even be 2HKOed by Hurricane + Superpower. Chansey is a shitty switch-in, as Torn-T with Taunt murders it, and same goes for SpD Skarmory. Now let's see some switch-ins for Terrakion. Gliscor, Landorus-T, Hippowdon, BU Toxicroak, Mew, Slowbro. So Torn-T has 6 and Terrakion 6. Yeah i know that some of them can be argued, but 1 more or less doesn't make a lot of difference, and in the end of the day, they have more or less the same number of safe switch-ins.
But let's go further... What can revenge kill Terrakion and what Tornadus-T? As you can see in this case, Torn-T is way better, as it has superior Speed, and is not weak to Bullet Punch and Mach Punh, but is weak to Ice Shard, which is the less popular priority out of the three. Not to mention that Terrakion can be trapped by Dugtrio.
In rain, there is no doubt that Torn-T is one of the more threatening pokes in OU, and in my eyes is better than Terrakion, in rain again. The question is, is rain considered as a lot of support, or little support... If it is little support, then Torn-T fits in S rank, while if it isn't it goes to A rank. Imo Drizzle support is very easy to provide, and doesn't hinder your team at all, quite the opposite actually in many situations. So putting Politoed in your team to make Torn-T work to its fullest potential is not a lot of support. Many offensive pokemon need certain checks and counters eliminated, as well as entry hazards support, in order to succeed. Torn-T needs way less team support in those aspects (weakening of checks and counters) as it can weaken most of its counters and checks itself anyway, as all of them except Zapdos and Jirachi lack reliable recovery, and it is fucking immortal to problems that other offensive pokes face, hazards and LO recoil, meaning it can live long enough to outlast its check and counters that lack reliable recovery. Not to mention that Torn-T has so few checks and counters in the first place. So while Torn-T requires a bit more support than some other offensive pokes, it becomes way more threatening than most offensive pokes with this support, which as said again, is not too much of a deal anyway.
Torn-T for S tier.
As about Landorus-I and Ninetales i am really torn. While Ninetales offers godlike team support, it often struggles to stay alive. Dugtrio, SR and her shitty bulk all make sure of that. Ninetales is one of the few support pokes that needs a lot of support to work. You need a way to remove SR, a way to win weather wars, a way to deal with Dugtrio, and a way to bring her in in the first place, as she is quite frail. All of those problems prevent her from being an S rank poke, but she is definitely one of the best A rank pokes, as the support she offers is indeed exceptional, just not so easy to provide. You can't just fit Ninetales into a team and call it a day, but you can do this with Politoed, Tyranitar and Hippowdon. For this reasons Politoed is in the S rank. The sand inducers are not in S rank because Sand doesn't provide huge team support, but if it did, you can be sure that they would be S rank pokes. Having Politoed and Ninetales in the same rank just doesn't feel right, when the first one is clearly superior individually, and in terms of how easy it is for Poltitoed to offer the support. I am not saying that Rain outclasses Sun, i am saying that Politoed outclasses Ninetales as a weather inducer and as a standalone pokemon. Keep Ninetales in A rank.
EDIT: Removed bulky Starmie and added BU Toxicroak as safe switch-ins to Terrakion.
I don't agree at all that Torn-T has a much wider range of safe switch-ins in comparison to Terrakion. For Torn-T there are Jirachi, Rotom-W, Rotom-H, Bronzong, Metagross, Zapdos and i thinks that's it. Heatran is not a safe switch in. It gets 2HKOed by Superpower if it is SpDefensive, and if offensive it can even be 2HKOed by Hurricane + Superpower. Chansey is a shitty switch-in, as Torn-T with Taunt murders it, and same goes for SpD Skarmory. Now let's see some switch-ins for Terrakion. Gliscor, Landorus-T, Hippowdon, BU Toxicroak, Mew, Slowbro. So Torn-T has 6 and Terrakion 6. Yeah i know that some of them can be argued, but 1 more or less doesn't make a lot of difference, and in the end of the day, they have more or less the same number of safe switch-ins.
But let's go further... What can revenge kill Terrakion and what Tornadus-T? As you can see in this case, Torn-T is way better, as it has superior Speed, and is not weak to Bullet Punch and Mach Punh, but is weak to Ice Shard, which is the less popular priority out of the three. Not to mention that Terrakion can be trapped by Dugtrio.
In rain, there is no doubt that Torn-T is one of the more threatening pokes in OU, and in my eyes is better than Terrakion, in rain again. The question is, is rain considered as a lot of support, or little support... If it is little support, then Torn-T fits in S rank, while if it isn't it goes to A rank. Imo Drizzle support is very easy to provide, and doesn't hinder your team at all, quite the opposite actually in many situations. So putting Politoed in your team to make Torn-T work to its fullest potential is not a lot of support. Many offensive pokemon need certain checks and counters eliminated, as well as entry hazards support, in order to succeed. Torn-T needs way less team support in those aspects (weakening of checks and counters) as it can weaken most of its counters and checks itself anyway, as all of them except Zapdos and Jirachi lack reliable recovery, and it is fucking immortal to problems that other offensive pokes face, hazards and LO recoil, meaning it can live long enough to outlast its check and counters that lack reliable recovery. Not to mention that Torn-T has so few checks and counters in the first place. So while Torn-T requires a bit more support than some other offensive pokes, it becomes way more threatening than most offensive pokes with this support, which as said again, is not too much of a deal anyway.
Torn-T for S tier.
As about Landorus-I and Ninetales i am really torn. While Ninetales offers godlike team support, it often struggles to stay alive. Dugtrio, SR and her shitty bulk all make sure of that. Ninetales is one of the few support pokes that needs a lot of support to work. You need a way to remove SR, a way to win weather wars, a way to deal with Dugtrio, and a way to bring her in in the first place, as she is quite frail. All of those problems prevent her from being an S rank poke, but she is definitely one of the best A rank pokes, as the support she offers is indeed exceptional, just not so easy to provide. You can't just fit Ninetales into a team and call it a day, but you can do this with Politoed, Tyranitar and Hippowdon. For this reasons Politoed is in the S rank. The sand inducers are not in S rank because Sand doesn't provide huge team support, but if it did, you can be sure that they would be S rank pokes. Having Politoed and Ninetales in the same rank just doesn't feel right, when the first one is clearly superior individually, and in terms of how easy it is for Poltitoed to offer the support. I am not saying that Rain outclasses Sun, i am saying that Politoed outclasses Ninetales as a weather inducer and as a standalone pokemon. Keep Ninetales in A rank.
EDIT: Removed bulky Starmie and added BU Toxicroak as safe switch-ins to Terrakion.
Tornadus-T for S-Tier? Agree
Pretty much what has been said. With rain, it is a monster. It has one of the best STABs to have, as Flying is a pretty good type with amazing neutral coverage, and all types that resist it can easily be covered. It's a shame that most Flying-types don't have a decent STAB Flying-type attack, but Tornadus-T is one of the few exceptions, and it is a prove to how not having a Flying-type resistance can lead to your team's destruction. Its genie form packs a bigger punch, but Tornadus-T has every other thing that Tornadus-I can only wish that it had, such as being able to outspeed Choice Scarf Tyranitar, Starmie and Gengar. Also, Regenerator is a huge advantage. Tornadus-T is effectively immune to hazards, can abuse Life Orb to its fullest, and if it had to take some damage to enter in battle, it can come back later on battle, healthy, back to another destruction round. Some people say that it is still good with rain. However, my opinion is that what makes Tornadus-T a real monster is rain. A very underrated set on my opinion is Substitute. With Substitute, Tornadus-T becomes harder to revenge kill. While it can run out of health quickly, Regenerator makes up for this. Substitute protect Tornadus-T from annonying Thunder Waves, and now to actually revenge kill Tornadus-T, Mamoswine, for example, must eat a Hurricane. If he doesn't have an intact Focus Sash, good luck trying to kill Tornadus-T later.
Landorus-I for S-Tier? Agree
Its only true flaws are somewhat middling speed (101 speed is rather low when you see the amount of things that can outspeed him, with a Choice Scarf or due to natural higher speed, thankfully Rock Polish compensates for this) and weakness to Ice and Water (with rain being everywhere and many things carrying Ice-type coverage due to Dragons and Gliscor, Landorus must be careful). But Landorus-I's strengths more than make up for this. Its special sets are terrifying, and its physical sets are even more terrifying, but they require sandstorm support, while special sets don't. Still, Landorus-I can pull off some dangerous sets that you must always be prepared for. With Swords Dance + Gravity, Landorus-I can break through stall or slower, bulky teams; even Slowbro is OHKOed, Skarmory that thougth that was safe walling Landorus-I almost always give him a free turn to use Gravity and then start OHKOing most walls with the apropriate move. With Rock Polish + Sheer Force, there isn't much offensive teams that can eat its attacks. With Choice Scarf, Landorus-I becomes the best revenge killer for Sandstorm teams, even better than Genesect and Stoutland, as Landorus-T has better speed and doesn't really need much coverage apart from EdgeQuake, unlike the former, and is useful and retains its good speed outside sandstorm, unlike the latter. You should always be prepared for Landorus if you don't want your team to be defeated on a matter of seconds.
Ninetales for S-Tier? Not sure
The points said above are true, and Drought support is one of the best supports that a Pokémon can have. However, Ninetales by itself, is such an underwhelming pokémon, and unlike Politoed is not a decent Pokémon that is outclassed by other similar pokémon; it is really bad. It has bad defenses, bad tipying, and bad stats overall. You must play to its strengths, but even then Ninetales can't do much outside of summoning weather. Using some surprise moves like Roar may help, but Ninetales is still mediocre. Also, it is fast. In almost every other case, being fast is amazing, but not for Ninetales, as its speed means that it can't be used as a lead since the opponent's weather will almost always override sun unless they are using Choice Scarf. That means that a lot of time you must start the battle with the weather in your opponent's favor. Ninetales brings a sort of support that is fantastic, but Ninetales by itself, Sucks.
Yeah, none of these bar Landorus-T are good Terrakion switch-ins. Lando-T is the only one of those that avoids a 2HKO from a Choice Band attack or the OHKO from Rock Gem +2 Stone Edge. Landorus-T, Golurk and Nidoqueen are the closest things to a good Terrakion switch-in, not that I'm advocating the use of the latter 2 btw.
I'm okay with Tornadus-T staying A-rank for now. Considering we are now playing in a meta where its almost acceptable for teams to have to rely on saccing a Pokemon to deal with stuff like Terrakion (and Kyu-b in suspect), the fact Tornadus-T does have hard counters (SDef Rotom-W, Jirachi, Zapdos, Bronzong) who are actually usable is pretty disappointing. Also unless you are an incredibly lucky player, Tornadus-T isn't half as threatening without rain support. 49% chance to hit your STAB hurricane twice (without rain) are terrible odds for a Pokemon who wants to be spamming it on every free turn it gets. Terrakion on the other hand requires no specific weather support to function and works equally well under sand, rain, sun or weatherless offense.
What makes Terrakion so tough to handle is also its ability to run a variety of different sets. Whereas your gameplan to handle Choice Band Terrakion may involve switching into Slowbro / other regen mon to scout the locked move and then make a second switch accordingly, this will ultimately fail against a well played SubSD Terrak. Similarly, if you are running offense and just need to sac something to get a free switch for your scarfer, SubSD shits all over you again. The key here is that you always know what Tornadus-T is going to do as soon as you see it in team preview, and you know how you are going to play against it. With Terrakion its not quite that simple, and lets not rule out the chance that it could also be double dance (btw speed-boosting mons like RP Gene, RP Terrak, RD Kingdra and to an extent Agility Lucario take a dump on 90% of teams atm lol)
Also Tornadus-T not being weak to Bullet Punch doesn't count for much when Scizor has a half-decent chance to KO you after rocks regardless.
tl;dr
- nothing good can switch-in on terrakion, whereas there are actually common mons that can tank hits from Tornadus-T and aren't shit against everything else in OU.
- Torn-t needs rain to function, don't kid yourself that its tearing through teams with 70% acc Hurricanes!
- you know how you are going to handle tornadus-t immediately from team preview since it only has one bread and butter set (lo and specs play p much exactly the same except LO is harder to play around if you don't have something like Zapdos / Jirachi / Rotom-W). Terrakion is different because it has multiple sets that are almost indistinguishable from team preview and can't all be played against in the same manner.
Being dependent on the most dominant weather in OU is not much of a handicap. With the high odds of your opponent running either Rain or no weather, it's hard to make the argument that Tornadus-T would ever have to deal with a 70% accurate Hurricane in any feasible scenario.
I'm a firm supporter of Tornadus-T in S. He checks/counters way too many Pokemon in OU for his flaws to matter.
I'm a firm supporter of Tornadus-T in S. He checks/counters way too many Pokemon in OU for his flaws to matter.
Tornadus-T is clearly A Tier, it has plenty of viable checks but it's a great utility 'mon and with outstanding base 121 Speed it can wreck a whole lot of stuff in this metagame. Definitely in the upper 50% of the A Tier, but not gamebreaking enough for S Tier. Every team has a check for it nowadays, it's that big of a threat, but that's also what makes it not so big of a threat.
Ninetales is also A Tier, it's nowhere near on the level of Politoed (even though its respective weather is arguably better than Politoed's Rain), and its pitiful base stats, shallow movepool, and debilitating weakness to Stealth Rock makes it outclassed on all fronts by the smug Drizzle summoner.
I'm pressed for time, sorry this was so short, but I tried to condense my main points into two or three sentences...
Ninetales is also A Tier, it's nowhere near on the level of Politoed (even though its respective weather is arguably better than Politoed's Rain), and its pitiful base stats, shallow movepool, and debilitating weakness to Stealth Rock makes it outclassed on all fronts by the smug Drizzle summoner.
I'm pressed for time, sorry this was so short, but I tried to condense my main points into two or three sentences...
There is another thing that must be said about Hurricane; I think that it shouldn't be compared to Focus Blast at all. They are technically versions of each other with different tipying and PP, but Focus Blast is a move that many things run because they are forced, otherwise they are going to be walled. The 30% chance to miss is worth the coverage that you gain against Dark, Rock and Steel-types, especially since you can opt to run Hidden Power Fighting, but the latter is much weaker in comparison, and doesn't net you as many KOs as Focus Blast. Still, if Aura Sphere, for example, was a tutor/TM move, almost everything that use Focus Blast nowadays would use Aura Sphere instead for the better accuracy, the loss of power is worth that.
On other hand Hurricane has great neutral coverage, but not using it on rain is pretty much a waste of its potential. Focus Blast actually has better coverage, and most things that use Hurricane use that for STAB. If you aren't using Hurricane on rain, there isn't much reason to use it to begin with. Also, Hurricane actually has worse accuracy than Focus Blast on sun, so...
On other hand Hurricane has great neutral coverage, but not using it on rain is pretty much a waste of its potential. Focus Blast actually has better coverage, and most things that use Hurricane use that for STAB. If you aren't using Hurricane on rain, there isn't much reason to use it to begin with. Also, Hurricane actually has worse accuracy than Focus Blast on sun, so...
From my perspective as a largely defensive player (who still somehow can't give up on making stall / defensive balanced work in this meta), Tornadus-T is by far the bigger threat than Terrakion. It simply can't be worn down. Every time it comes in, which is often, that's instant momentum right there for the opponent. I have to switch to my dedicated counter, it U-turns straight away or else Hurricane's (giving it a chance to hax its way through) then U-turns to a counter. It's exactly like Genesect (but a heck of a lot more immediately threatening) in that it doesn't imo have true counters. Zapdos is weak to SR, Rotom and Bronzong have no reliable recovery, Jirachi is trapped by Dugtrio (and none of these can take the high powered Water attacks Torn is usually paired with); but even if there was a truely safe switch in for it, you're still left in a bad position because you're forced to sacrifice momentum.
CB Terrakion has always been pretty easy to work around for me; SubSD is the only set which makes me think it deserves to be S tier. For CB, I usually just run Hippowdon and any bulky Fighting resist and call it a day, but there are a vast number of other strong two-pokemon combinations which handle it fairly easily.
CB Terrakion has always been pretty easy to work around for me; SubSD is the only set which makes me think it deserves to be S tier. For CB, I usually just run Hippowdon and any bulky Fighting resist and call it a day, but there are a vast number of other strong two-pokemon combinations which handle it fairly easily.
hello? how can someone compare terrakion with torn t in terms of dangerousness?
Now i do agree when someone says torn is a ridiculous threat in rain, key word, in rain. This may just be me, but i consider that if a pokemon absolutely needs support to even be usable (dont lie to yourselves, the only reason to use tornadus is to have the pleasure of hurricane spam), that is not what i call a threat that is par with terakion, which like PenguinX mentioned has far less usable counters then torn. Rotom w, by the way, is arguably the perfect counter for the big bird, if you manage to have ferro out of the way then it solos an entire rain team, and with the naturally balanced, and sort of stally, rain playstyle usually you are at a healthy HP if you play it right (Pain Split u know). Tornadus-T for A-Tier
And on the ninetales argument, i think its weather isnt as powerful as Rain, plus Politoed is in every sense a better support mon, but in any case its crappy stats and typing just leave her in a bad situation. Ninetales for A-Tier
Now i do agree when someone says torn is a ridiculous threat in rain, key word, in rain. This may just be me, but i consider that if a pokemon absolutely needs support to even be usable (dont lie to yourselves, the only reason to use tornadus is to have the pleasure of hurricane spam), that is not what i call a threat that is par with terakion, which like PenguinX mentioned has far less usable counters then torn. Rotom w, by the way, is arguably the perfect counter for the big bird, if you manage to have ferro out of the way then it solos an entire rain team, and with the naturally balanced, and sort of stally, rain playstyle usually you are at a healthy HP if you play it right (Pain Split u know). Tornadus-T for A-Tier
And on the ninetales argument, i think its weather isnt as powerful as Rain, plus Politoed is in every sense a better support mon, but in any case its crappy stats and typing just leave her in a bad situation. Ninetales for A-Tier
All of them except bulky Starmie are good switch-ins. Defensive Gliscor (248 HP / 252 Def +) has only a 6% chance of getting 2HKOed from CB Stone Edge after SR, and 6% chance of getting OHKOed by +2 Rock Gem Stone Edge. Not to mention that SubSD Salac Terrakion is much better in this meta than SubSD Rock Gem, because of all the offensive teams, so Gliscor almost always comes out on top. Landorus-T is not 2HKOed by anything so it is a safe switch-in as well. BU Toxicroak is not 2HKOed by anything (don't bring up EQ) in rain, so he is a solid switch in too. Slowbro only has a small chance to get OHKOed by a +2 Rock Gem SE, and can take everything else, makaing it a solid siwtch in as well, not to mention that as i said again, SubSD Rock Gem is not as good as it used to be. Mew fears Stone Edge from CB Terrakion true, and +2 SE from Rock Gem (which is not big of a deal, for me at least), but generally is a great switch in to Terrakion, especially given Stone Edge's crappy accuracy. Finally physically defensive Hippo counters Terrakion, no questions asked. So out of the 6 switch-ins i mentioned, only one of them can be argued, Mew, and as i said again one more or one less switch-in hardly makes a difference.
Also the statement that nothing good in OU can switch into Terrakion is straight up false. Landorus-T is an excellent poke that makes for an awesome Terrakion switch in for offensive teams, and defensive Gliscor can do the same for defensive teams. Hippowdon is in A rank, and is one of the best pokes to win the weather war, while being able to fit in both offensive and defensive teams. So here you go, 3 pretty popular pokes with common sets, that make for very good switch-ins to Terrakion.
Also i have not spoken about U-turn + Dugtrio in purpose. Even if Terrakion was more threatening even in rain than Torn-T, that alone is not enough to make it better. Did you forget the fact that Terrakion can be easily trapped and killed by Dugtrio if it tries to switch in one of the pokes he handles the best, Genesect? Or have you forgotten that Torn-T + Dugtrio is one of the best combos in BW2? Yeah Dugtrio is another poke to use alongside Politoed, which means extra support, but Dugtrio's role is not only helping Torn-T, but also helping with the weather war, and to take out Genesect's counters, so the benefits of using Dugtrio are multiple anyway. Yeah Gothitelle can remove most of Terrakion's checks and counters too, but Terrakion doesn't have U-turn to safely bring her in.
Outside of Rain Terrakion is more threatening to face, but inside rain, Torn-T is the most fearsome threat is Torn-T. All in all, i would put Terrakion and Torn-T in about the same threat level, so i think that both should be in S rank.
I went ahead and quoted the parts of the posts that argued against against Ninetales in S-tier and bolded the parts that were relevant. Whether or not Ninetales by itself is outclassed by Politoed is utterly irrelevant. It has absolutely no bearing on whether or not it should be S tier. IN FACT, the only relevance that might have is that Politoed should possibly be in a higher tier (no, I'm not actually suggesting that).
Ninetales, in comparison to Terrakion, Genesect, and Landorus-I, supports a team just as much if not more than each of these three do their work offensively.
You have to remember that battle long support like Stealth Rock (arguably the strongest move in Gen 4) and Weather are FAR BIGGER deals than what pokemon can do individually defensively or offensively.
When alexwolf says "while Ninetales offers godlike team support" (note the term godlike), when Dark Fallen Angel says "Drought support is one of the best supports that a Pokémon can have." (note the term best), when Lavos Spawn says "even though its respective weather is arguably better than Politoed's Rain" (note he says sun is arguably better than rain), you are directly stating that Ninetales deserves to be S-tier. Battle long support that supports multiple Pokemon / strategies is far more significant than individual pokemon offensive / defensive capacities, and PKGaming specifically said in the OP that this list applies to all of offense, defense, and support. The only things statements like "Ninetales is outclassed by Politoed" say is that Politoed is amazingly amazing, not that Ninetales is not S-tier amazing. You also can't say "if not for Drought Ninetales would suck" as a serious argument (saying it as a talking point is fine), because Ninetales does have Drought...and, from what we're witnessing in BW1 AND BW2, Drought itself is S-tier support (vulpix was banned from UU lol).
Apply logic here guys; you have multiple Pokemon in S-class...they are not equally good. There is a best S-class pokemon (probably politoed) that outclasses all of the others in what it does best compared to what they do best. That doesn't mean they don't all deserve to be S-tier.
I agree with both of these. Tornadus-T is indeed a powerful Pokemon, but he is easily countered by both Rotom-W and Jirachi, and checked by Mamoswine and Jolteon. This is enough to keep Tornadus-T in A-Tier.
Ninetales is nowhere near S Material. She does summon a powerful weather that suddenly makes Venusaur and Volcarona into monsters. But take this into consideration: Ninetales does not provide the offensive or defensive synergy with any of the team at all. This in turn makes Ninetales a liability, not a threat. She also loses to Politoed, Tyranitar, and Hippowdon, and as a result, she needs heavy team support to help her keep her sun up. This keeps Ninetales in A-Tier.
And since we're also doing lower tier mons, I would like to nominate Scrafty for C-Tier. As Much as I like it, the metagame is really against Scrafty. Tornadus-T can outspeed and kill (but can't switch into an Ice Punch), while Rachi can cripple it. He's also slow and weak before a boost. Nonetheless, the DD set is incredibly deadly in the right conditions thanks to perfect coverage and Moxie, while the Bulk Up set is hard to take down. Scrafty for C-Tier.
I'd also like to nominate Stoutland for C-Tier. Thanks to Sand Rush, Stoutland becomes an amazing revenge killer in sand. He has overall excellent coverage, good bulk to work with, and excellent speed in Sand. A Choice Band gives it much needed firepower, while his bulk means he's not going down in one neutral hit. However, he is heavily dependent on Sand from Ttar or Hippo, outside of it, he's as normal a Normal-type (Pun Intended) as you can get. It is also worth mentioning that Normal STAB is not the best thing to have. He is also weak to Mach Punch, so Breloom with SD can put him in a risky situation. Nonetheless, given support from Ttar/Hippo as well as others in the sand, Stoutland can be very good, and this is enough to put Stoutland in C-Tier.
EDIT: Another reason to keep Torn-T in A-Tier is the fact that rain is his life and blood. Without it, he's an almost nonexistant threat.
alexwolf, except from Lando-T (on which I agree with you, it's a good Terrakion counter, although it needs a defensive set to avoid being raped by CB Terrakion), Defensive Hippowdon is 2HKO'd after 1 layer of Spikes, so it's not exactly a "safe counter" as you describe. Also, while Gliscor is indeed a good check, 248/252+ versions are nonexistant in this meta (check the usage statistics if you need to...), 252/184+ has a good chance to be 2HKO'd by Band and faster versions (quite common since SubToxic is everywhere) are even worse.
Also, your argument on "Tornadus-T being more threatening in rain" is kinda moot, since I could argue that Venusaur is much more threatening than Tornadus-T and basically of every weather abuser in its weather, but it was even rejected from A-rank because it's meh outside Sun. The exact same applies to Tornadus-T: outside Rain, a 70% accuracy STAB is horrendous, and it can easily lose you games because that SD Lucario set-upped in your face while you missed. And while your Dugtrio argument makes some sense (although it's easy to argue that half a team is indeed a BIG support), the whole Politoed + Dugtrio + Tornadus can be easily handled by Rotom-W; so not only you built half your team around it (again, a huge chunk of support) but it can't even handle all of Tornadus-T's checks / counters.
I can't deny that Tornadus-T is deadly and can sweep easily unprepared teams (although its power is not that great as everyone seems to think, at least to me; I easily swept teams clean with Specs Tornadus in BW1 and it's less frequent now thanks to that drop in SpA); it has a lot of awesome traits, but its predictability, support-dependance, and diminished usefulness outside Rain is more than enough to keep it in A-rank, IMHO.
Also, your argument on "Tornadus-T being more threatening in rain" is kinda moot, since I could argue that Venusaur is much more threatening than Tornadus-T and basically of every weather abuser in its weather, but it was even rejected from A-rank because it's meh outside Sun. The exact same applies to Tornadus-T: outside Rain, a 70% accuracy STAB is horrendous, and it can easily lose you games because that SD Lucario set-upped in your face while you missed. And while your Dugtrio argument makes some sense (although it's easy to argue that half a team is indeed a BIG support), the whole Politoed + Dugtrio + Tornadus can be easily handled by Rotom-W; so not only you built half your team around it (again, a huge chunk of support) but it can't even handle all of Tornadus-T's checks / counters.
I can't deny that Tornadus-T is deadly and can sweep easily unprepared teams (although its power is not that great as everyone seems to think, at least to me; I easily swept teams clean with Specs Tornadus in BW1 and it's less frequent now thanks to that drop in SpA); it has a lot of awesome traits, but its predictability, support-dependance, and diminished usefulness outside Rain is more than enough to keep it in A-rank, IMHO.
Aldaron i agree with you that Drought support is indeed godlike support, but there are other factors to consider. Many Pokemon have very good support options, such as Altaria, Roserade, and Uxie, yet they are not OU because of other significant flaws. Of 'course the support that those pokes provide is nowhere near the level of Drought's support, but there is still a connection.
It is not enough for a poke to have the support moves, abilities or typing, to be regarded as a good support mon. It must also be able to constantly provide this support, with little support itself. The best support mons ever require almost no support themselves to function, such as Deoxys-S, Deoxys-D, Uxie for RU, etc. They can be easily thrown in most teams. And this is not the case with Ninetales. She needs a lot of support as we all know, which means that she can't offer her support in the teams as easily as it should in order for it to be in S rank, imo.
It is not enough for a poke to have the support moves, abilities or typing, to be regarded as a good support mon. It must also be able to constantly provide this support, with little support itself. The best support mons ever require almost no support themselves to function, such as Deoxys-S, Deoxys-D, Uxie for RU, etc. They can be easily thrown in most teams. And this is not the case with Ninetales. She needs a lot of support as we all know, which means that she can't offer her support in the teams as easily as it should in order for it to be in S rank, imo.
Ok, I'm going to post my opinion about all these Pokémon that you're suggesting for S Rank.
First of all, there's Landorus-I. I believe Landorus-I should totally be a S Rank Pokémon, if not the best S Rank Pokémon. It just simply laughs at offensive teams with Rock Polish and laughs at defensive teams with Calm Mind. Its main problems are weakness to common Water moves and Ice Shard, which really is bad. It also fails to KO some stuff even with LO + Sheer Force, like Lati@s and Jellicent. But these are just small problems that can be easily remedied with the help of some stuff, especially hazards. Landorus-I can perform multiple roles efficiently, being a great revenge killer, sweeper, late-game cleaner and wall breaker. It is way harder to play around than other S Rank Pokémon because it can use its special side and its physical side, which means that you can send in your Politoed or Hippowdon to tank an Earthquake but then he sends an Earth Power and you're dead. Landorus-I is completely deadly and unpredictable, you have to rely on team preview to guess which set he's running, and you can almost never be 100% sure. This is one of the deadliest Pokémon in OU and he sure deserves to be on the S Rank.
I don't have a full opinion about Tornadus-T. He can work outside Rain by using Rain Dance, but i can only imagine this happening nicely with a load of predicts and support. I mean, if you send in your Tornadus-T, your opponent will a) use a super effective move with a slower Pokémon just to sacrifice it, but you'll die if you don't attack it or b) send a counter / check to Tornadus-T and you'll be forced out anyways. Although i feel he has the qualities to be on the S Rank, I just don't know if he can manage to perfom its role without some support. I have to test it to say something else. For now, I believe he is better at the A Rank, because it is predictable and needs support.
Ninetales is not S Rank. He just sucks. Fire is a terrible typing, being weak to common attacks in OU and he doesn't resist any sort of hazard. It doesn't have the stats, variety or power to be on the S Rank. While Politoed can effectively be a physical wall, specs user or scarf user, Ninetales can only work as a terrible special wall, not being able to switch in to common strong attacks, such as Draco Meteor from Latias. He can also work as a special attacker, but he doesn't get the strength to break through most walls. Of course it provides heavy support, but that is the only thing it does nicely. It does check some pretty specific threats, but is still just not good enough to be S ranked. You can't just see the Drought support it brings to the table, you must analise its weaknesses, and Ninetales has TONS of weaknesses.
So, resuming it all: Landorus-I for S Rank; not sure about Tornadus-T (but pending for A Rank); Ninetales for A Rank.
First of all, there's Landorus-I. I believe Landorus-I should totally be a S Rank Pokémon, if not the best S Rank Pokémon. It just simply laughs at offensive teams with Rock Polish and laughs at defensive teams with Calm Mind. Its main problems are weakness to common Water moves and Ice Shard, which really is bad. It also fails to KO some stuff even with LO + Sheer Force, like Lati@s and Jellicent. But these are just small problems that can be easily remedied with the help of some stuff, especially hazards. Landorus-I can perform multiple roles efficiently, being a great revenge killer, sweeper, late-game cleaner and wall breaker. It is way harder to play around than other S Rank Pokémon because it can use its special side and its physical side, which means that you can send in your Politoed or Hippowdon to tank an Earthquake but then he sends an Earth Power and you're dead. Landorus-I is completely deadly and unpredictable, you have to rely on team preview to guess which set he's running, and you can almost never be 100% sure. This is one of the deadliest Pokémon in OU and he sure deserves to be on the S Rank.
I don't have a full opinion about Tornadus-T. He can work outside Rain by using Rain Dance, but i can only imagine this happening nicely with a load of predicts and support. I mean, if you send in your Tornadus-T, your opponent will a) use a super effective move with a slower Pokémon just to sacrifice it, but you'll die if you don't attack it or b) send a counter / check to Tornadus-T and you'll be forced out anyways. Although i feel he has the qualities to be on the S Rank, I just don't know if he can manage to perfom its role without some support. I have to test it to say something else. For now, I believe he is better at the A Rank, because it is predictable and needs support.
Ninetales is not S Rank. He just sucks. Fire is a terrible typing, being weak to common attacks in OU and he doesn't resist any sort of hazard. It doesn't have the stats, variety or power to be on the S Rank. While Politoed can effectively be a physical wall, specs user or scarf user, Ninetales can only work as a terrible special wall, not being able to switch in to common strong attacks, such as Draco Meteor from Latias. He can also work as a special attacker, but he doesn't get the strength to break through most walls. Of course it provides heavy support, but that is the only thing it does nicely. It does check some pretty specific threats, but is still just not good enough to be S ranked. You can't just see the Drought support it brings to the table, you must analise its weaknesses, and Ninetales has TONS of weaknesses.
So, resuming it all: Landorus-I for S Rank; not sure about Tornadus-T (but pending for A Rank); Ninetales for A Rank.
Well Aldaron, is not that I don't agree with Ninetales being S-Tier. Its because although all that you say is true, and Ninetales indeed provide a sort of support that is so valuable that initially makes it seem that Ninetales is worthy of a S-Tier classification, you must also consider that Ninetales is a bad pokémon that provides little synergy with the team, both defensively and offensively, as said above by ScraftyIsTheBest. Ninetales has a severe disadvantage against all weather starters except Abomasnow, wich is uncommon enough to be irrelevant as a threat. Also, Ninetales actually requires support to provide support to the team; you must take out all entry hazards, must eliminate all threats to wich Ninetales can't switch in safely... These factors make me doubt whether Ninetales is worthy of S-Tier or not.
Ganj4lf i wasn't talking about counters, but about good switch-ins. And anyway many pokes are not counters to other pokes if certain conditions are met, but what matters is if they counter the threat that they are supposed to under normal/usual conditions. And from my personal experience, SR + 1 layer of Spikes rarely were up for a long period of time. And from experience i can tell that Hippowdon is a solid counter most of the times for Terrakion. Of 'course i can get screwed in a game that i didn't manage to prevent Deo-D from setting up SR + Spikes, and i also didn't manage to spin those hazards fast enough, but this is a rare scenario.
About Gliscor. I know that the standard defensive Gliscor is running 72 Spe evs, but this was always a mistake. And popular or not, it doesn't matter, as it exists and it is very viable, and nothing prevents you from running Max HP / Def in you Gliscor. Good pokes are not always popular on the ladder, don't forget that (take Keldeo as an example). In fact the defensive Gliscor spread will very possibly change to the one i mentioned, after hearing some people's opinions. So Gliscor is a counter for the most part, if you run the right spread, and one of the best Terrakion switch-ins.
Your second paragrpaph ignores very important facts. The fact that rain is the most dominant and easy weather to keep up for example, which is the main reason i think that Torn-T belongs to S rank. Also the fact that Torn-T has Regenerator, allowing it to make its pressence felt in all the stages of the game, where Venusuar is usually limited to late game sweeping. And finally the fact that Torn-T is better outside of Rain than Venusaur is outside of Sun.
And about the Dugtrio + Politoed part. Dugtrio support is sweet and sometimes makes Torn-T even more difficult to handle, but is not a must in any way, so let's not refer to it when we talk about Torn-T, as it can demolish teams even without Dugtrio easily.
Everything else has been said, as to why i believe it is an S rank poke...
Well technically isn't Landorus suppose to be in a Dream Ball in the game in order for it to have a Sheer Force so when showdown does implement the changes you can pretty much tell if hes sheer force set or the Sand force set sadly :(
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