Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[SJCrew]

Hyreigon's main problem is that it doesn't have good speed or a way to boost it. Salamence and Dragonite owe much of their offensive presence to DD, and Volcarona owes ALL of its success to Quiver Dance. Hydreigon is bullied by offensive teams because of his speed, and defense doesn't have enough presence in OU for him to truly flex his offensive power. If Hydreigon were quick enough to at least stand toe to toe with Latios, he would be a definitive OU threat without protest.

 

[Asek]

Hydreigon may very well be the best wall breaker in the game, but lets face it against flat out offensive teams it will have a fair amount of problems considering its weaknesses to common offensive types (U-Turn and Close Combat = gayest) and its speed will make it easy to abuse by these teams, especially after a DM / SP drop. Considering the fact that this metagame is so offensively inclined, hydreigon rarely finds a chance to shine.

Also about tournament usage being relevant to arguements, it is very relevant @namehtmas. Most tournament players will be using the best available to them, and won't have to adjust for the ladder as they will be expecting a certain level of skill from their opponent. If hydreigons usage in tournaments is low in the current metagame it is a pretty good indicator that it isn't as good as an A tier pokemon should be.

 

[Magcargo]

Hyreigon's main problem is that it doesn't have good speed or a way to boost it. Salamence and Dragonite owe much of their offensive presence to DD, and Volcarona owes ALL of its success to Quiver Dance. Hydreigon is bullied by offensive teams because of his speed, and defense doesn't have enough presence in OU for him to truly flex his offensive power. If Hydreigon were quick enough to at least stand toe to toe with Latios, he would be a definitive OU threat without protest.

Well there is tailwind, making him faster than most of the metagame.

 

[Gary]

I accept the fact that you don't think Hydreigon is A-Rank PK, but other than the whole Speed shenanigan that seems to be the only sole argument against it going A (which I honestly don't think is fair), and it lacks a viable boosting move, which again is a pretty bad argument. My main concern is with you, PK. I agree with posters such as Asek who gave a good reason as to why they think Hydreigon isn't A-Tier material, and I respect that. You on the other hand, used solely tournaments as an example. I understand what you mean, but why exactly do you think Hydreigon isn't A material? Is it just because of it's usage in tournaments and on PS (which isn't a good argument either since Deoxys-D was S-Tier and it ranked in the mid 40s, and he wasn't a very common sight in tournaments either), or is there more?

I want PK to answer this, not anybody else. I want to know why HE wants it B.

 

[CyberOdin✝]

Good Rank.

 

[NfskMjmMal]

Why the hell is Ninjask D-Rank? BP teams with Ninjask have, in the right hands, been able to do very well on the ladder throughout this entire Gen. The metagame can shift around all it wants, but pure Baton Pass teams with Ninjask have remained consistently effective no matter what. At least make him C.

Anything with Roar, Whirlwind, Perish Song, or to a slightly lesser extent, Red Card completely ruin Baton Pass chains.

 

[Arcticblast]

Actually, Baton Pass teams have ways around phazing and Perish Song (Magic Bounce Espeon and Soundproof Mr. Mime, respectively, although Mr. Mime kind of sucks). Red Card seems like a hilarious answer to Baton Pass teams though. Just when they get to +6 in a few stats and they're on Espeon, waiting to use Stored Power... Forretress sends it out with Red Card and sets up Stealth Rock.

Ninjask is no better than D-rank though. Baton Pass teams function as one whole unit, and any part of that unit on its own (with some exceptions) is generally terrible.

 

[PK Gaming]

I accept the fact that you don't think Hydreigon is A-Rank PK, but other than the whole Speed shenanigan that seems to be the only sole argument against it going A (which I honestly don't think is fair), and it lacks a viable boosting move, which again is a pretty bad argument. My main concern is with you, PK. I agree with posters such as Asek who gave a good reason as to why they think Hydreigon isn't A-Tier material, and I respect that. You on the other hand, used solely tournaments as an example. I understand what you mean, but why exactly do you think Hydreigon isn't A material? Is it just because of it's usage in tournaments and on PS (which isn't a good argument either since Deoxys-D was S-Tier and it ranked in the mid 40s, and he wasn't a very common sight in tournaments either), or is there more?

I want PK to answer this, not anybody else. I want to know why HE wants it B.

Here's the deal

It's speed isn't its only flaw, you also failed to grasp just how bad that weakness to Fighting is. Being forced to switch out against some of the most common Pokemon in the game (Keldeo, Landorus, Terrakion, Breloom, Garchomp) is undesirable. I'm not sure what you're getting at when you say "Speed shenanigans" but 98 Speed on something with as many weaknesses as Hydreigon is crippling. Any half-decent offensive team will always have a revenge killer on hand, and Hydreigon itself might not find a chance to switch in, these are legitimate flaws that dissuade people from using it.

Please don't put words in my mouth, I don't care about PS usage. "Players don't use Hydreigon at high level BW OU play, hence the tiering placement." What don't you get about this? How could I ever justify placing Hydreigon in A-tier when the players concerned with winning, rarely (if ever) use it? It's a clear sign that Hydreigon itself isn't that great of a Pokemon, and certainly not A-tier material. Even if you disregard tournament data, you have nothing else to fall on, just your word.

You will have to live with the fact that Hydreigon isn't going to rise unless the metagame changes.

(Btw, Deoxys-D was fairly common in BW OU2 tournaments when it was legal.)

 

[False Sense]

Here's the deal

It's speed isn't its only flaw, you also failed to grasp just how bad that weakness to Fighting is. Being forced to switch out against some of the most common Pokemon in the game (Keldeo, Landorus, Terrakion, Breloom, Garchomp) is undesirable. I'm not sure what you're getting at when you say "Speed shenanigans" but 98 Speed on something with as many weaknesses as Hydreigon is crippling. Any half-decent offensive team will always have a revenge killer on hand, and Hydreigon itself might not find a chance to switch in, these are legitimate flaws that dissuade people from using it.

Please don't put words in my mouth, I don't care about PS usage. "Players don't use Hydreigon at high level BW OU play, hence the tiering placement." What don't you get about this? How could I ever justify placing Hydreigon in A-tier when the players concerned with winning, rarely (if ever) use it? It's a clear sign that Hydreigon itself isn't that great of a Pokemon, and certainly not A-tier material. Even if you disregard tournament data, you have nothing else to fall on, just your word.

You will have to live with the fact that Hydreigon isn't going to rise unless the metagame changes.

(Btw, Deoxys-D was fairly common in BW OU2 tournaments when it was legal.)

Well, I can understand you're reasoning for that, and I respect that. I think it's obvious that you're not changing you're opinion on this, but I'd like to ask a legitimate question of you before I drop this.

My question, which I believe I have mentioned about three times now yet has gone mostly unanswered, is why is Kyurem-B A-Rank? Perhaps I'm missing something here, but all the flaws you listed that keep Hydreigon out of A-Rank seem to apply to Kyurem-B too. That list of common OU pokemon that threaten Hydreigon? Those scare off Kyurem-B too; it has that same Fighting (and Dragon) weakness that you deem to be so crippling. Slow speed? Kyurem-B is slower than Hydreigon, making it susceptible to the same faster threats, ironically including Hydreigon. On top of that, unlike Hydreigon, Kyurem-B is weak to Stealth Rocks, in addition to all other hazards (Remember, Hydreigon has Levitate; it's not hurt by Spikes/Toxic Spikes). That means that, in addition to being hard to switch in in the first place, due to it's slow speed and weaknesses, it gets badly hurt every time it does. Oh, and it's also weak to Bullet Punch, so the #1 most common pokemon in OU threatens it.

I suppose what I'm getting at is that Kyurem-B might be more suited to B-Rank. It has all the flaws Hydreigon has and then some, so unless I'm oblivious to some EXTREME advantage Kyurem-B has, I think B-Rank might be more fitting. If I am overlooking something, feel free to correct me.

 

[Magcargo]

Well, I can understand you're reasoning for that, and I respect that. I think it's obvious that you're not changing you're opinion on this, but I'd like to ask a legitimate question of you before I drop this.

My question, which I believe I have mentioned about three times now yet has gone mostly unanswered, is why is Kyurem-B A-Rank? Perhaps I'm missing something here, but all the flaws you listed that keep Hydreigon out of A-Rank seem to apply to Kyurem-B too. That list of common OU pokemon that threaten Hydreigon? Those scare off Kyurem-B too; it has that same Fighting (and Dragon) weakness that you deem to be so crippling. Slow speed? Kyurem-B is slower than Hydreigon, making it susceptible to the same faster threats, ironically including Hydreigon. On top of that, unlike Hydreigon, Kyurem-B is weak to Stealth Rocks, in addition to all other hazards (Remember, Hydreigon has Levitate; it's not hurt by Spikes/Toxic Spikes). That means that, in addition to being hard to switch in in the first place, due to it's slow speed and weaknesses, it gets badly hurt every time it does. Oh, and it's also weak to Bullet Punch, so the #1 most common pokemon in OU threatens it.

I suppose what I'm getting at is that Kyurem-B might be more suited to B-Rank. It has all the flaws Hydreigon has and then some, so unless I'm oblivious to some EXTREME advantage Kyurem-B has, I think B-Rank might be more fitting. If I am overlooking something, feel free to correct me.

Kyurem-B is more viable than you think. It can tank close combats from terrakion with a bit of investment thanks to its mammoth bulk. Kyurem-b can tank a bullet punch from scizor AFTER SR and is pretty viable. Also, if you're nominating kyurem-b for b rank, then nominate kyurem-c for C-Rank because it is obviously worse than kyurem-b. Kyurem-B has access to coverage moves like fusion bolt and ice beam to pretty much 2HKO the entire metagame. Even CB outrage 2HKO's ferrothorn after spikes, a testement to how good is it. Also, kyurem-b's special attack is almost as high as hydreigon's special attack and it's attack is 65 points higher., so it isn't very similar. The only think similar between these two is their speed, and kyurem-b has MANY advantages over hydreigon. Advantages include: better attacking stats, better bulk, the ability to tank a suer effective hit, and access to the bolt beam coverage.

 

[False Sense]

Kyurem-B is more viable than you think. It can tank close combats from terrakion with a bit of investment thanks to its mammoth bulk. Kyurem-b can tank a bullet punch from scizor AFTER SR and is pretty viable. Also, if you're nominating kyurem-b for b rank, then nominate kyurem-c for C-Rank because it is obviously worse than kyurem-b. Kyurem-B has access to coverage moves like fusion bolt and ice beam to pretty much 2HKO the entire metagame. Even CB outrage 2HKO's ferrothorn after spikes, a testement to how good is it. Also, kyurem-b's special attack is almost as high as hydreigon's special attack and it's attack is 65 points higher., so it isn't very similar.

Oh don't get me wrong; I'm not trying to say that Kyurem-B is bad, just that it has very similar flaws compared to Hydreigon that I think need to be looked at.

Now I believe that Kyurem-B can only survive a Close Combat from a Terrakion with moderately large amounts of defensive investment; and even then it's doing around 90%. And if Terrakion has a boost of some sort, like Choice Band, then Kyurem-B isn't going to survive. Just saying that Terrakion still is a major pain for Kyurem-B.

 

[Magcargo]

Oh don't get me wrong; I'm not trying to say that Kyurem-B is bad, just that it has very similar flaws compared to Hydreigon that I think need to be looked at.

Now I believe that Kyurem-B can only survive a Close Combat from a Terrakion with moderately large amounts of defensive investment; and even then it's doing around 90%. And if Terrakion has a boost of some sort, like Choice Band, then Kyurem-B isn't going to survive. Just saying that Terrakion still is a major pain for Kyurem-B.

I Didn't say kyurem-b should stay in against terrakion, but can take close combats from terrakion, meaning that attacks like landorus's earthquake won't do that much damage. Also, Kyurem b can survive mach punches from breloom and that ice STAB is pretty useful to beat pokemon such as celebii and landorus. It is the bulkiest and one of the most powerful dragons in OU which is why it should stay in A-Rank.

 

[Tressed]

Hmm, False Sense has a point here.When you look at them, they're actually really similar. Basically nothing wants to switch into them, but they're awkward to get into the fight, what with weaknesses and the like. Hydreigon is less bulky, but Kyurem-B does have to deal with hazards. Both have really awkward Speed, too, so that Scarving them doesn't really help as much as you would like, and locking them into an attack isn't good either, seeing as their most powerful attacks are Outrage (locks the user in) and Draco Meteor (lowers power each hit).
The main thing I see for Kyu-B > Hydreigon is longevity. Kyurem-B can fit Roost into its moveset pretty easily, and it doesn't have to switch out after attacking if it wants to keep being useful. Hydreigon relies on Draco Meteor and Superpower, which both have nasty side effects that can make it less useful the longer it stays in. That's really it, imo. I wouldn't be against dropping Kyu-B to B-Rank.

 

[Sam]

Again good Pokemon are not exclusive to what is used in tournaments. I think that if that's what we're basing 'good' and viability on, that's not very healthy for the metagame.

Anyway I'm never going to dispute that it's speed is not good. For an offensive mon, base 98 is not very good. But you don't just look at speed for everything. I don't think susceptibility to revenge killing really justifies calling something 'crippled'. Look at all of Hydreigon's weaknesses: Fighting is not a good type to be locked in to (two you listed tend to be choiced. breloom is a bit tricker), high powered dragon moves have major drawbacks, most of the ice attacks you'll see by Pokemon you'll see in a higher speed tier are going to be HP Ice with pitiful base power (minus an exception or two such as Starmie), and the only real thing you'll have to worry about for Bug is faster U-turns, which to be fair are a problem. Besides, this is all for revenge killing, at which point a KO has already occurred. It's not just as simple as you put it. I feel you're really really underestimating it and are pointing to tournaments to back yourself up.

 

[RabidChipmunk]

Again good Pokemon are not exclusive to what is used in tournaments. I think that if that's what we're basing 'good' and viability on, that's not very healthy for the metagame.

Anyway I'm never going to dispute that it's speed is not good. For an offensive mon, base 98 is not very good. But you don't just look at speed for everything. I don't think susceptibility to revenge killing really justifies calling something 'crippled'. Look at all of Hydreigon's weaknesses: Fighting is not a good type to be locked in to (two you listed tend to be choiced. breloom is a bit tricker), high powered dragon moves have major drawbacks, most of the ice attacks you'll see by Pokemon you'll see in a higher speed tier are going to be HP Ice with pitiful base power (minus an exception or two such as Starmie), and the only real thing you'll have to worry about for Bug is faster U-turns, which to be fair are a problem. Besides, this is all for revenge killing, at which point a KO has already occurred. It's not just as simple as you put it. I feel you're really really underestimating it and are pointing to tournaments to back yourself up.

Wait, what? Fighting is probably the best type to be locked into: it hits five types for super effective damage and nine others for neutral. Close Combat is probably the single easiest to spam move in the entire game.

But getting back to the topic, Hydreigon doesn't just have to worry about revenge killers, but also getting into the game in order to kill something in the first place. Hydreigon's good-ish bulk is seriously undermined by it's poor typing, which means that it can be very tricky to ever get Hydreigon onto the field. I've used Hydreigon, and more often than not it just sits in the back of my party taking up space, and once every few matches when it finally gets a chance to come in, it'll kill something (maybe), and then either be revenge killed or forced back out again.

Hydreigon is a decent Pokemon, but that's all it'll ever be. Not great. Decent. B-Rank is the best place for it.

 

[Sam]

Ghosts, Latios, Latias, Tentacruel, Reuniclus, Starmie, hell since almost every fighting type move will be physical Hippowdon as well, Dragonite, Lando-T, etc. beg to differ. Close Combat is situational and at time good to spam when you're cleaning late-game, but otherwise most teams are prepared for fighting-types and it's generally best to exercise caution in spamming choiced CC as it can ruin momentum.

 

[Hemp Man]

Being locked into fighting means Dragonite/Salamence/Gyarados can also set up on you.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I don't get why people are taking issue with seeing Hydreigon in B-Rank. After all, B-Rank is a very good rank. Look at the list of B-Rank Pokemon-- these are all very viable, and very potent threats in the metagame. I mean... Foretress, Jellicent, Tentacruel, Skarmory, Gengar, Dugtrio, Volcarona... B-Rank includes a lot of key Pokemon OU teams couldn't go without, that absolutely shape the metagame.

There are few teams that have no B-Rank (or lower) Pokemon; sticking to only A/S rank puts too many limitations on team building. The B-Rank pokes are staple OU threats; just not the kings of the tier.

And that's exactly what Hydreigon is; it's a Staple-- a legitimate threat that sees use and has it own unique redeeming qualities. However, it's clear that it's not nearly as lethal or threatening Garchomp, Latios, Latias, Dragonite, etc. There is a clear distinction of threat level.

As for Kyurem-B; there's just nothing else like it in the tier-- nothing else with that absolutely ridiculous level of raw stat-advantage. Nothing else can pry the metagame open just by brainlessly clicking Outrage. Even PK_Gaming has resigned to put it in a tier above, despite his massive Haxorus fetish.

 

[malomyotismon]

Ye the conversation went away from hitmontop for the forgettable pokemon that is arcanine.

Anyone willing to back my earlier statements why hitmontop should be tier C?

 

[Vemane]

Until you realize that a priority attack takes advantage of the defense drops from Close Combat, flying and psychic types are very common in OU and ghost types are immune to fighting.
So, no, you don't want to be locked into a fighting-type move very often.

As for Kyu-B, it's solid A-rank. It doesn't have that horrible ice weakness every other OU dragon has, its stats allow it to be far more versatile than its small movepool could imply at first glance (just take a look at Kyu-B's OU analysis), has no hard counters, is one of the best anti-rain pokemon in the tier and single-handedly crushes stall teams with either brainless Outrage spamming or the SubHoneClaws set.

Hydreigon has the advantage of a larger movepool that makes it more unpredictable, but once it's set is revealed it's rather easy to wall. Also, unlike Kyu-B (who can afford running Lefties even on offensive sets), it's very reliant on items to net critical OHKO's and 2HKO's.

Kyu-B on the other hand manages to keep offensive pressure no matter what it runs thanks to its absurdly high stats. You can't send in your bulky water type (including Politoed to win weather wars, which in itself is huge) because you risk getting vaporized by Fusion Bolt and you can't send your Gliscor or Landorus-T even when it runs a CB set because you risk getting OHKO'd by Ice Beam.

Vaporized by fusion bolt? Hell, they'd be hard pressed to not get 1hkod by cb adamant outrage. Gliscor and lando also take huge chunks (less defensive sets of each are 1hkoed i believe). As you mentioned, kyu is great for weather wars for this reason: there is nothing for the opponent to switch in! Thus, their team will quickly whittle away

 

[Eggbert]

Ghosts, Latios, Latias, Tentacruel, Reuniclus, Starmie, hell since almost every fighting type move will be physical Hippowdon as well, Dragonite, Lando-T, etc. beg to differ. Close Combat is situational and at time good to spam when you're cleaning late-game, but otherwise most teams are prepared for fighting-types and it's generally best to exercise caution in spamming choiced CC as it can ruin momentum.

Terrakion can 2HKO everything on that list with stealth rock, except reuniclus which is rare, lando, and gengar/jellicent. gengar is definitely not switching in reliably and jellicent can be 2HKOd by stone edge as well so it will be a tad bit reluctant. sure, things stop it, but it is alot easier to spam that you give it credit for. I know terrakion isn't the only CC user but when I think CC I think terrakion.

As far as hydreigon, it's definitely B tier. Tailwind is actually pretty good with it, but it is a sitting duck without the speed boost.

 

[False Sense]

Well, people have presented some pretty strong arguments for why Kyurem-B is A-Rank. I can understand that those ridiculous stats can counteract it's other flaws. I guess I'm done with the Hydreigon for A-Rank argument for now. Although I don't agree with some of the things people are saying about Hydreigon, I can understand why people aren't exactly fond of it. Well, thanks to everyone who offered their support for Hydreigon. Maybe next time...

 

[Gary]

See here's the thing about Kyurem-B and Hydreigon.
Hydreigon has wonderful attacking stats and a movepool to demolish pretty much anything that doesn't yell "Chansey" or "Celebi in the rain".
However on closer inspection, we see that Hydreigon has a 105/125 Offense stat.
This isn't terrible at all and is quite useful for a mix-Pokemon such as Hydreigon.
But realize this:
When you compare it to Hydreigon, Kyurem-B is just on a whole new level.
With 170/120 Offense stats, Kyurem-B is a clear A-Tier Pokemon.
Honestly, once Kyurem-B gets a Substitute up or something, it becomes S-Tier without a shadow of doubt.
People are really overlooking base 170. 1-7-0 people. That's probably higher than you've ever bothered to count in your life.
Kyurem-B also has the tools to bypass any stupid Steel Type thinking it can wall an Outrage. Eat an Earthpower, Earthquake, Outrage or Fusion Bolt. Your Choice Steel Types.

I also went onto a Defensive Calculator and noticed that sadly Hydreigon seems to get OHKO'd from so many various threats. Like very common too at that.
To score an OHKO on Kyurem-B, many of them are somewhat rare.
Things like Specs Latios, Banded Terrakion, Banded Haxorus...pretty much Pokemon that have massive Attack stats and were given a Band/Spec.
So Kyurem-B does have more survivability on his side.

Anyways, that's why I think this whole Hydreigon v. Kyurem-B is a little dumb to be frank ._.
In reality, people are making Hydreigon look worse as it tries to compete with a Pokemon that has an Attack stat way to powerful.

If only Kyurem-B actually learned Earthquake, that would be awesome! Heck an all out offensive move set of Outrage, Dragon Claw, Fusion Bolt, and Earthquake would pretty much hit the entire tier extremely hard, harder then it already does. That's one advantage Haxorus has over it, a better move pool and set up moves. Poor Haxorus, so overlooked. He is out classed in the Choice Band Department, but sweeper? Not so much. Sure Dragonite and Salamence are usually the better sweeping candidates, however it doesn't have to worry about Stealth Rocks, x4 weakness to Ice Shard, and can bypass Levitate on Rotom-W and Bronzong, without having to rely on a Special attack. He would be easy A-Rank if he wasn't out classed in most of his roles by Kyurem-B. Besides, his Sub Swords Dance set is probably one of the scariest things in the game to face.

 

[Schpoonman]

Volcarona is also unique in that he's not held back THAT much by Drizzle. First, he gets Hurricane. Second, he does very well in getting rid of threats to rain, like Ferrothorn, as Fire Blast with significant investment can OHKO even before a Quiver Dance.

 

[False Sense]

Volcarona for A-Rank, huh?

Let me just put something out there; I DESPISE VOLCARONA. I absolutely hate it. It tends to be the bane of my existence because even when I prepare for it, I have trouble. And if you DON'T prepare for it... you're dead. Seriously, if you don't have a solid plan for removing Volcarona, this thing can kill you. Even it's Stealth Rock weakness doesn't stop it from sweeping, especially bulky variants. I'm not going to go into too much detail now, but I can fully understand why Volcarona could be A-Rank. It tears up so many teams, it's unreal...