Zapdos should get B-, B is pushing it imo. Easily walled, set up fodder for a LOT thanks to it's horrible 4mss. That said it does have a large niche.
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OU The OU Viability Ranking thread
- Thread starter PK Gaming
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tell me what sets up on zapdos please i'm dying to know...with the most common set of volt switch / hp ice / heat wave / roost, it can nail a bunch of common setup mons for se damage (scizor dnite lando chomper etc.) and for all the rest it can simply vswitch out to the appropriate check so i'm confused where you're getting the statement that zapdos is "set up fodder" "thanks to its horrible 4mss" since that's pretty much dead wrong.
definitely a solid b-rank in my opinion, i have it on pretty much every one of my bw2 stall teams because it's necessary to counter lando-i and utility check a lot of other stuff. celebi doesn't cut it as far as i'm concerned since u-turn is becoming so much more popular...
definitely a solid b-rank in my opinion, i have it on pretty much every one of my bw2 stall teams because it's necessary to counter lando-i and utility check a lot of other stuff. celebi doesn't cut it as far as i'm concerned since u-turn is becoming so much more popular...
Agreeing with Lavos Spawn; Zapdos is a underrated Pokemon that can have a lot of utility in OU. It provides a integral part of stall teams, one of the few mons that can reliably check Tornadus and Landorus. I used it on a rain stall team during the Tornadus-T era and it can take hits very well and Roost off the damage. The set that Lavos posted is great and I'd like to add that the Sub Roost set with Toxic and Thunderbolt is also a great set in OU. It has lots of opportunities to set up a Substitute and then proceed to weather down the opponent with Toxic and stall out their PP with Pressure while staying healthy by alternating between Substitute and Roost. Thunderbolt is still powerful even without much investment. Easily a B-rank POkemont that has great utility and the ability to go with both offensive and defensive sets to throw off the opponent.
I also agree with Zapdos in B. Has a lot more substance than Weavile for instance.
Weavile can Pursuit trap and ice shard dragons. No other can do that or do it as well as Weavile can.
It also beats offensive checks to Landorus (Mamoswine) with Low Kick.
Ice shard picks off enemy Landorus, Garchomp (who can also be Ice Punched), Dnite, Salamence etc.
Pursuit rids the world of Jellicent, Latis, Celebi or weakens them enough to be KOed by Earth Power/HP ice.
Low Kick/NightSlash/Ice Punch are just bonuses, those two moves getting STAB are the real deal. I'd say its a BETTER partner for SF Landy because unlike BandTTar, it can beat said pokemons with STAB moves. (Lando isnt forced to run HP Ice if Weavile is its partner, weavile has Ice shard). Lets face it. Garchomp is surviving CB Crunch and OHKOing back with EQ. Weavile can Pursuit and beat chompy with Ice Shard/Ice Punch.
^none of that has anything to do with what I was saying.
Weavile is an overall crappy Pokemon that has a few key unique niches. Zapdos is an overall good Pokemon-- that's why I could see Zap in a tier above Weavile.
BTW-- anyone want to try explain why Feraligatr is B and not B-?
Weavile is an overall crappy Pokemon that has a few key unique niches. Zapdos is an overall good Pokemon-- that's why I could see Zap in a tier above Weavile.
BTW-- anyone want to try explain why Feraligatr is B and not B-?
gatr's really good at endgame sweeping, and if you pick the right move in the teambuilder based on what your team is weak to more, then you can really do some damage to certain teams. it doesn't have a ton of trouble setting up either, due to both the plethora of choiced pokemon in the current metagame and its above-average bulk when running 252 hp evs (like you should be doing). plus it doesn't hurt that at +2 in rain or in torrent range, it can ohko the 2nd and 3rd most common scarfers, terrakion and jirachi, after stealth rock damage. that's pretty awesome. besides i think there's a lot of hype for feraligatr right now coming off gr8's finals win so people are using it a whole lot more and that's boosting its rank a bit. b-rank is fine for me as of right now, gatr's a solid pokemon that gets a lot of bad publicity imo.
every time i've used weavile it has been one of the least, if not the least valuable member of my team. its actual damage output is dissatisfying, and 4mss is a killer. if only i could run ice shard, ice punch, pursuit, night slash, and low kick all on the same set, but having to choose between the second and the fourth is a real pain. and like i just said it really doesn't do as much as you think it would...low kick does like 60% to standard ferrothorn which sucks, and pursuit doesn't even ohko standard jellicent on the switch (and that's taking life orb into account). i also hate how it's complete setup bait for sd scizor, which seems to be everywhere right now. not a big fan overall, i'd put it in c-rank.
every time i've used weavile it has been one of the least, if not the least valuable member of my team. its actual damage output is dissatisfying, and 4mss is a killer. if only i could run ice shard, ice punch, pursuit, night slash, and low kick all on the same set, but having to choose between the second and the fourth is a real pain. and like i just said it really doesn't do as much as you think it would...low kick does like 60% to standard ferrothorn which sucks, and pursuit doesn't even ohko standard jellicent on the switch (and that's taking life orb into account). i also hate how it's complete setup bait for sd scizor, which seems to be everywhere right now. not a big fan overall, i'd put it in c-rank.
Victini is NOT the only Pokemon capable of using Final Gambit. Scarf Staraptor and Accelgor can both run it. I would, however, say it's certainly the best given Victini's enormous base HP (for FG users).
I support Victini for B-rank too. It's one of the best choices for Sun teams right now, it has the most powerful move in the game (a Choice Band V-Create under sun hits really really hard), a nice coverage moves (Bolt Strike and Brick Break) and few utility move as well (Trick Room and Final Gambit). It has also 100 in every statistics, which makes it powerful, solid and fast at the same time, as Icecream already said. Victini deserves the B-tier imo.
Reuniclus
I find that one should consider moving Reuniclus from B to B+, or even A, as it has good bulk; 110 / 75 / 85, and an outstanding base 125 SpA. It also has one of the arguably best abilities which is Wonder Guard, which complete shuts down Toxic stalling and it won't take any damage from entry hazards, and furthermore allowing a free 30% boost to all it's moves through Life Orb, as recoil won't be taken due to the effects of Magic Guard. It can also pull off sweeps, as after some good investment in Defense and a couple of CMs, Reuniclus will be hard to take down, and will hit very hard. The only problem with it is it's speed. The lackluster base 30 speed is not very appealing, but that is the exact reason as to why it can reliably run an Offensive Trick Room set. Another good niche is it's ability to tank a lot of fighting hits; a popular type in the OU metagame. The strongest reason imo is that it almost doesn't need any support to work very well on an OU team, in fact sometimes not any.
So, with all this in mind, let us discuss the possible move for Reuniclus. Do you think it should be moved up? If so, why or why not? I think it's a good pokemon to discuss :] I find it a potential B+ or A rank :^D
I find that one should consider moving Reuniclus from B to B+, or even A, as it has good bulk; 110 / 75 / 85, and an outstanding base 125 SpA. It also has one of the arguably best abilities which is Wonder Guard, which complete shuts down Toxic stalling and it won't take any damage from entry hazards, and furthermore allowing a free 30% boost to all it's moves through Life Orb, as recoil won't be taken due to the effects of Magic Guard. It can also pull off sweeps, as after some good investment in Defense and a couple of CMs, Reuniclus will be hard to take down, and will hit very hard. The only problem with it is it's speed. The lackluster base 30 speed is not very appealing, but that is the exact reason as to why it can reliably run an Offensive Trick Room set. Another good niche is it's ability to tank a lot of fighting hits; a popular type in the OU metagame. The strongest reason imo is that it almost doesn't need any support to work very well on an OU team, in fact sometimes not any.
Psychic + Focus Blast is good enough coverage to sweep significant portions of the metagame, and with 252 / 252 defense investment + Recover + Magic Guard, it can "wall significant parts of the metagame, most notably completely shut down stall through the ability. Whenever I use Reuniclus on a team, I find that it has done it's job, either through sweeping, or for use as a pivot, as fighting type attacks are pretty predictable in this meta.
I find that one should consider moving Reuniclus from B to B+, or even A, as it has good bulk; 110 / 75 / 85, and an outstanding base 125 SpA. It also has one of the arguably best abilities which is Wonder Guard, which complete shuts down Toxic stalling and it won't take any damage from entry hazards, and furthermore allowing a free 30% boost to all it's moves through Life Orb, as recoil won't be taken due to the effects of Magic Guard. It can also pull off sweeps, as after some good investment in Defense and a couple of CMs, Reuniclus will be hard to take down, and will hit very hard. The only problem with it is it's speed. The lackluster base 30 speed is not very appealing, but that is the exact reason as to why it can reliably run an Offensive Trick Room set. Another good niche is it's ability to tank a lot of fighting hits; a popular type in the OU metagame. The strongest reason imo is that it almost doesn't need any support to work very well on an OU team, in fact sometimes not any.
Psychic + Focus Blast is good enough coverage to sweep significant portions of the metagame, and with 252 / 252 defense investment + Recover + Magic Guard, it can "wall significant parts of the metagame, most notably completely shut down stall through the ability. Whenever I use Reuniclus on a team, I find that it has done it's job, either through sweeping, or for use as a pivot, as fighting type attacks are pretty predictable in this meta.
So, with all this in mind, let us discuss the possible move for Reuniclus. Do you think it should be moved up? If so, why or why not? I think it's a good pokemon to discuss :] I find it a potential B+ or A rank :^D
I agree with this. The CM set is slightly outclassed by Latias though. Shes a much better CM sweeper. Offensive Trick Room is amazing. I have stuck with Reuni since I first joined Showdown and everytime Ive used it, it was a fantastic member of my team.
Although I adore Reuniclus and it's Trick Room set, I believe A-rank would be past its uses. Choice band Tyranitar and Scizor that are everywhere really hurt it's usage, also with Celebi and Latias being the prime*Psychic types that allow them to check Landorus and Thundurus. Reuniclus is aslo hit hard by neutral water types that both the former and latter can sponge. You may argue that Latias and Celebi are also Pursuit bait, but their multiple uses out weight such flaw. Stall is also rarely seen which the CM set can't be really abused without, but I think Reuniclus is a solid B+.
I find that one should consider moving Reuniclus from B to B+, or even A, as it has good bulk; 110 / 75 / 85, and an outstanding base 125 SpA. It also has one of the arguably best abilities which is Wonder Guard, which complete shuts down Toxic stalling and it won't take any damage from entry hazards, and furthermore allowing a free 30% boost to all it's moves through Life Orb, as recoil won't be taken due to the effects of Magic Guard. It can also pull off sweeps, as after some good investment in Defense and a couple of CMs, Reuniclus will be hard to take down, and will hit very hard. The only problem with it is it's speed. The lackluster base 30 speed is not very appealing, but that is the exact reason as to why it can reliably run an Offensive Trick Room set. Another good niche is it's ability to tank a lot of fighting hits; a popular type in the OU metagame. The strongest reason imo is that it almost doesn't need any support to work very well on an OU team, in fact sometimes not any.
Psychic + Focus Blast is good enough coverage to sweep significant portions of the metagame, and with 252 / 252 defense investment + Recover + Magic Guard, it can "wall significant parts of the metagame, most notably completely shut down stall through the ability. Whenever I use Reuniclus on a team, I find that it has done it's job, either through sweeping, or for use as a pivot, as fighting type attacks are pretty predictable in this meta.
So, with all this in mind, let us discuss the possible move for Reuniclus. Do you think it should be moved up? If so, why or why not? I think it's a good pokemon to discuss :] I find it a potential B+ or A rank :^D
Definitely supporting this monster for A-Rank. Wasn't this thing a potential suspect in early bw1? I may be wrong but if I'm right it just shows how powerful this thing is. I think it deserves to be A Rank as opposed to B+ because every mon in B+ has one flaw you can see immidately i.e. Gyara needs a turn to set up and even then it's pretty slow, Hydriegon is slow, Croak is hindered by sun, etc. But Reuniclus doesn't have one flaw that jumps out at you, you could argue speed but it makes up for that with bulk and power. It isn't hard to set up Trick Room either, with those defensive stats, immunity to hazards, and resistances to fighting attacks which are every where. It's calm mind set is dangerous as well, some may say it isn't as good as latias' set, which is true for the most part, but Reuniclus doesn't have a dragon typing to give it weaknesses to ice and dragon, (although latias has a resistance to water). While calm minding Reuniclus can't be toxiced, whereas latias can, potentially (Sub and Refresh can keep status at bay, but then you are using a moveslot for one of those moves, whereas Reuniclus doesn't have to.) I think Reuniclus should be A-Rank because it can be a deadly sweeper in one turn or a bulky calm minder that can't be toxiced and is immune to hazards and sand/hail.
I know that Latias is a good CM sweeper too BUT the ability that Reuniclus has, does provide easier setting up on Toxic users, as it doesn't get affected. I find it effective in it's own way over Latias, as it also has more HP / Def, but you are right, Latias does get the upper hand most of the time.
Even the bulkiest Tyranitar can't live a Focus Blast after Reuni sets up TR on the switch to it, and scizor is KO'd after a few switch ins of stealth rock (spikes up are a possibility since skarm pairs well with reuni since it can come in on scizor). I don't understand what you mean when you say "also with Celebi and Latias being the prime*Psychic types that allow them to check Landorus and Thundurus" since OTR reuni isn't supposed to do the jobs that latias and celebi do. If you said this because latias and celebi check reuni then my counter arguement is this:
252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Shadow Ball vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 192-229 (60.18 - 71.78%)
Latias also is worn down by sand that could be there(CB ttar is a fantastic partner for reuni)+rocks+LO.
252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 177-211 (43.81 - 52.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather
Yes you can switch around to waste TR turns, but Reuni is meant to be used late game when everything is weakened and even early game it is pretty much gaurenteed to get one kill.
Stall isn't used that much? True, rain stall is still a thing though, regardless CM reuni doesn't need stall to function. It uses it's useful resistances to fighting, immunity to toxic, immunity to hazards, immunity to sand/hail, above average bulk when fully invested, and reliable recovery to get up multiple boosts making it tough to take down. A-Rank worthy imo.
Uh, yes there is. They are similar, but different. Darmanitan is, without a doubt, more powerful. Victini is encroaching with V-create, but still falls short. Every other attack, Victini is left FAR in the dust thanks to Darmanitan's superior Attack.
On the other hand, Victini has infinitely better coverage and can run a special set, which Darmanitan obviously can't.* Victini also is not reliable on a recoil move for its optimum damage output, and is in general FAR more durable. Both are hindered from Scarf sweeping everything in the sun, Victini because of V-create's speed drops and Darmanitan because of Flare Blitz's recoil, and both are obviously capable of fucking everything up in the sun, but they are not the same Pokemon at all.
Let's not pretend Zen Mode is viable, thank you.
You are speculating that TR will be up when Reuniclus faces Tyranitar which may not be the case, and in regards to my reference to Celebi and Latias. Most teams can only afford one Pursuit weak pokemon Latias and Celebi being superior Psychic picks.
I disagree with moving Reuniclus up to A-Rank. I've used Reuniclus extensively in this current metagame, and although it's Offensive Trick Room set is very scary with proper support, it's just not really A-Rank worthy. Sure it has really nice bulk and amazing coverage with just 3 moves, but Reuniclus is purely a late game sweeper and nothing more in this current metagame. Reuniclus most of the time is sitting on the bench waiting for the right opportune moment to come in and set up TR or CM, but until then, it's more of a liability. Although Reuniclus is quite powerful, there are plenty of things out there that can survive one of its hits and threaten to stall out TR, force it out, or threaten it. Scizor can tank a Focus Blast and OHKO back with U-Turn. Jirachi can stall out with Wish and Protect, which is quite easy seeing as how often Focus Blast misses. Skarmory can phaze it out, forcing Reuniclus to come in on a hit. Ferrothorn with Gyro Ball can fuck up Reuniclus if it's not above 50% health. CM Latias can survive a Shadow Ball and proceed to set up on it. These are all common Pokemon in the metagame too, so Reuniclus needs a lot of support to get rid of these headaches before sweeping. By the way, saying that Reuniclus is Pursuit weak seems kind of redundant IMO. More often then not, most Reuniclus run Trick Room over Calm Mind, meaning that it will rarely ever switch out when TR is in effect. Tyranitar is murdered by Focus Blast in Trick Room, while Reuniclus can always tank a Pursuit from CB Scizor if need be. Being Pursuit weak isn't really a problem for Reuniclus.
As you can see, Reuniclus needs quite a bit of support to succeed, which kind of goes against most common A-Rank Pokemon that can succeed on their own quite well, or sweep the entire metagame no problem if given the chance (Volcarona). With that said, OTR Reuniclus is still extremely anti-metagame due to the plethora of fast paced frail sweepers, and if used properly with the right support, it can tear everything apart. I think moving it up to B+ Rank would be suitable, but no higher.
As you can see, Reuniclus needs quite a bit of support to succeed, which kind of goes against most common A-Rank Pokemon that can succeed on their own quite well, or sweep the entire metagame no problem if given the chance (Volcarona). With that said, OTR Reuniclus is still extremely anti-metagame due to the plethora of fast paced frail sweepers, and if used properly with the right support, it can tear everything apart. I think moving it up to B+ Rank would be suitable, but no higher.
Why would you try to sweep with Reuniclus when scizor isn't in KO range, that's like trying a RP lando sweep with Mamoswine still around. I agree Rachi is a problem for Reuni and there isn't an easy way around it, unless you run Magnezone, but even an A-Rank pokemon like Breloom has it's roadblocks.
252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 224 HP / 32 SpD Skarmory: 233-274 (71.25 - 83.79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Now skarm is too weak to do his job and was pretty much wasted.
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (36 BP) vs. 192 HP / 64 Def Reuniclus: 43-52 (10.51 - 12.71%) -- possible 8HKO
I assume you meant Power whip? And now Ferro is too weak to do his job, and it isn't uncommon for Ferro to be below 100% during a match, due to all the hits it has to take (leech seed recovery is pretty good though.) CB Tar gets rid of Latias, the only other support besides CB tar that would be appreciated is maybe hazards. Reuni can sweep no problem too, and may need less support than volc. Volc needs rocks out of the way, sun up or at least no rain, tran to be out of the picture (you can run hp ground, but tran can carry balloon), and you need a solid switch in for keldeo and terrakion, terrakion more so. Breloom, another A-Rank pokemon, struggles with Celebi and Amoonguss. Garchomp struggles with mamoswine, weavile, and the lati twins. Dragonite, hates stealth rock, hates terrakion, the lati twins, mamoswine. Reuniclus doesn't like Jirachi, the lati twins, celebi, slowking, pretty much any bulky ghost/psychic type that cannot be KO'd by it's coverage moves, look at how well CB tar pairs up with it, and thats one pokemon.
Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category. That is the definition of B Rank (albeit we are talking about B+, but if B+ had a definition, i imagine it be at least close to this) nothing does what Reuniclus does, making everything that should outspeed it slow with TR.
It isn't the most likely sceneario to have Reuniclus vs. Tyranitar when TR is not up, and even then it is a mind game on pursuiting or not, and then there is the fact that some TTar's don't carry both pursuit and crunch. As already stated by Gary2346 and myself, Reuniclus isn't really pursuit weak.
EDIT: I failed to recognize that chomp and dnite can run a multitude of sets, which is another reason why they are A-Rank, still, fast scarfers and ice shard users do hinder them. And Breloom has spore but the checks/counters remain the same.
Could Gliscor be worthy of A Rank? Its SubProtect set is one of the best stall sets, and while it can be KOed by Keldeo and Politoed, once it has a Substitute up it can stall for 32 turns against pretty much anything so you can PP stall or Toxic stall a lot. Also, it beats Terrakion, Landorus-T and Garchomp which can all otherwise be very dangerous.
Funny you mention Landorus Therian, as Lando is pretty much a better physical wall than Gliscor.
With a spread of 200 HP/64 Atk/244 Def, Adamant Nature, and a pokemon Intimidated, Landorus has physical bulk comparable to Groudon. Yes. The greatest physical wall in the game, Lando T can compare itself to.
It almost single handely destroyed Drag2Mag teams (at least physically based dragons, special based ones had to eat a U-Turn as Latias, Hydreigon, and Latios are all weak to it), sets up rocks, can sweep potentially with an RP boost (427 attack and 562 speed after a Rock Polish is no joke), can run an EXTREMELY effective Double Dance set, or can even go Sheer Force and become a surprise special attacker (inferior to Landorus Incarnate in this area though).
Gliscor can stay where it is. While it stalls pretty well and can run that AWESOME AcroBat set, thats all it can do. As a physical wall, Landorus Therian outclasses it.
Thanks for the reply, that makes sense. I guess for Gliscor to work well you need to build your team around it, which is enough to push him down to B+.
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