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I'm sure you'll see slightly different totals depending which surveys you look at but for example:
https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/econTabReport_Dgf6Oqh.pdf
Tables 17A-O and 18.

Pretty much the only major issue people are saying is less important than foreign policy are abortion, climate change and the environment (because republicans claim they don't care about those issues, but lol). Independents in particular care less about foreign policy (32% of leaners say it's not important). And keep in mind that's the entirety of foreign policy, not just Gaza. And when you ask people to name the most important thing basically no one says foreign policy.

She was never going to make it a focus of her speech or campaign. It's not am important issue either to motivate the base or to win independents. Your problem is not with Harris. Your problem is that a conflict that doesn't involve American troops' boots on the ground is never going to matter to a significant portion of the American public.
 
that's like the only three ones more important, wtf.
Well, the policies mentioned above are polarized ones. Less so abortion, as Republicans have been taking Ls on that issue, but like, if you spend a lot of your time shouting that the climate isn't actually changing (or that when it is its totally natural), a sizable chunk of people won't even have the issue on their radar. Obviously the environment is literally whether we can live on this planet in 100 years, but real legitimate importance won't be reflective of thoughts of the people polled. Compare this to, say, the economy, where pretty much everyone on both sides of the aisle will be at a minimum, moderately invested.
 
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yeah, sure, if you try to rank them when its miniscule percents you can pretend it's not an issue but the fact of the matter is literally every issue is important

"well you see 3% less people said foreign policy wasn't important compared to this other issue so it's actually something that we shouldn't be mentioning much at all!"

less people answered that civil rights were important
less people voted that CIVIL LIBERTIES were important
wayyy less people listed guns as important
crime went just about equal
criminal justice reform was less

like no shit if you ask people "what is the most important policy" foreign policy is gonna be lower when people cant afford groceries, that doesnt mean its not still an important to 85% of fucking respondants, if you try to rank issues by "importance" linearly by asking people "what is the most important issue for you" its going to be extremely lopsided and lose all of the nuance that most people give a shit about everything listed, or at least most of it

people will always rank #1 as issues that fundamentally effect them individually the most which means foreign policy will always be one of the lowest ranks when you ask people what is the most important issue

but when you actually look at how people say how much they care about issues, they care about most of them
 
I would like to point out that "foreign policy" includes things other than Gaza, such as America's handling of the Russo-Ukrainian War and its dealings with China, and I would not use American sentiment on the importance of foreign policy in general to draw many conclusions about American sentiment regarding Gaza in particular. That said, I would be surprised if a significant percentage of Americans care enough about Gaza to significantly alter their voting patterns. Even some of the hardliners in this thread are conceding that, when the chips are down, they will ultimately fall in line to keep Trump out of office.
 
It is what it is. This is the reality of the American voter. Gaza is not more important to American voters than the US economy, “safety” (immigration / crime), health care, democracy, and abortion. Those are the top issues.

Point of order.

Your foreign policy and how you yourself as a country are perceived by the rest of the world IS important. Gaza has, in a nutshell, exposed American complicity and double standards to the extent that pretty much the entire world is lining up on one side, and the other side is the USA, Israel, Germany and Argentina, with the UK now withdrawing from all but the most mild support for the war, and everyone else condemning both Israel’s conduct and America’s “ironclad” support for said conduct.

The United States has relied on its influence throughout the world for decades, built up military bases abroad, built up currency exchange agreements, and basically fought and bought its war to its current position, which it is now throwing on the bonfire in favour of supporting Israel.

You look at how countries the world over are now buying into either other foreign exchange mechanisms, or other alliances, or even going so far as to kick out American troops (look at Iraq), America’s influence has been really badly hurt by this whole sorry saga.

And frankly, it only has itself to blame. The USA provides the weapons for Israel’s “defence” and conduct and provides diplomatic cover. It shredding its own reputation on the world stage is the most damaging thing for its future. And frankly, I know there’s an element of isolationism within much of the politics discussed here, but ignore or dismiss foreign policy at your peril, would be my advice. This sh** matters.
 
Point of order.

Your foreign policy and how you yourself as a country are perceived by the rest of the world IS important. Gaza has, in a nutshell, exposed American complicity and double standards to the extent that pretty much the entire world is lining up on one side, and the other side is the USA, Israel, Germany and Argentina, with the UK now withdrawing from all but the most mild support for the war, and everyone else condemning both Israel’s conduct and America’s “ironclad” support for said conduct.

The United States has relied on its influence throughout the world for decades, built up military bases abroad, built up currency exchange agreements, and basically fought and bought its war to its current position, which it is now throwing on the bonfire in favour of supporting Israel.

You look at how countries the world over are now buying into either other foreign exchange mechanisms, or other alliances, or even going so far as to kick out American troops (look at Iraq), America’s influence has been really badly hurt by this whole sorry saga.

And frankly, it only has itself to blame. The USA provides the weapons for Israel’s “defence” and conduct and provides diplomatic cover. It shredding its own reputation on the world stage is the most damaging thing for its future. And frankly, I know there’s an element of isolationism within much of the politics discussed here, but ignore or dismiss foreign policy at your peril, would be my advice. This sh** matters.
I disagree with this line of thinking. It certainly does harm America's international standing to still be supporting Israel, but America's declining sway over the rest of the world started before this conflict was perpetually in the news. As far as other nations looking for alternative powers to establish relations with, I would attribute that more to the destabilization and isolationism brought on by the Trump presidency than anything else; Europe began looking eastward for more stable alliances before Joe Biden was sworn into office.
 
Calling civilizations or peoples "civilized" versus "uncivilized" or similar terms has traditionally been an extremely racist way to think and also usually is a good way empires have used to justify colonialism

That's why it gives bad vibes, The End
I totally agree.

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Source: https://arabcenterdc.org/resource/i...nization-and-war-crimes-against-palestinians/

The double standards are clear, and loud. Yes, the whole scthick of “civilised” versus “uncivilised” is gross.

But if you are claiming the moral high ground as “the only democracy in the middle east” and claiming this is a fight between “the children of light and the children of darkness” and you enact apartheid and genocidal policies whilst also seeing your citizens riot for the “right to rape” - then you cannot claim to be either of those things.

It is pretty hilarious to see the dictionary definitions get quoted as if they somehow cover all of the nuances of a political discussion and (sadly) the worst excesses of human evil.
 
I disagree with this line of thinking. It certainly does harm America's international standing to still be supporting Israel, but America's declining sway over the rest of the world started before this conflict was perpetually in the news. As far as other nations looking for alternative powers to establish relations with, I would attribute that more to the destabilization and isolationism brought on by the Trump presidency than anything else; Europe began looking eastward for more stable alliances before Joe Biden was sworn into office.
Okay, in fairness there is definitely evidence of that before 7 October 2023, for sure. But you cannot deny, I hope, that it is accelerating now with every day without a ceasefire or meaningful action against Israel.
 
ant4456 all you've done there is show that you don't understand politics. people "care" about a lot of things. obviously. but when we're talking about politics people only actually "care" about things if it will matter to their vote. there is not a politician in America at any level from local up to federal who represents my positions on every issue. I'm actually pretty confident there isn't a single politician in America I would agree with on everything related to Israel/Palestine alone without getting into every other issue. I still find someone to vote for in each and every election and make compromises.

I would have preferred to have seen a polling question where people could pick 3 issues rather than only #1 or where people specifically said whether the issue would swing their vote, but foreign policy isn't making top 3 for almost anyone anyway. "foreign policy voters" practically speaking do not exist. they will only exist when voters feel they already live in a substantially perfect society themselves, i.e. never.

This is an example of one of the many reasons that representative democracy is a fundamentally flawed system, but we've yet to come up with a better one! you can end up with many perverse outcomes where when talking about Issue #10 a majority of people prefer X but because that is a weak preference and a position on the issue won't actually change their vote, and there's also a very vocal group who instead prefer Y and that WILL change their vote, Y wins out. X voters are already captured by virtue of other issues and their opinion on issues #1-9 mattered more. The way this discrepancy is most easily reconciled is by forcibly isolating that one issue #10 to direct democracy by the public, i.e. a ballot measure at the state or local level, where abortion rights and marijuana deciminalization routinely win, even sometimes in red states. No analogous process exists at the federal level. Sometimes this is good sometimes this is bad. The American public (and every country's public) at large is woefully uneducated about many things and if we had direct democracy on many things there'd be a lot of other outcomes I'm sure you wouldn't like. I don't think I need to probably search too hard to find issues that you disagree with the majority of the American public on.

S.A.C. Martin putting aside the fact that, again, none of this matters to the American voter when they go to the ballot box and therefore it doesn't matter to the candidates (i.e. they have to get elected first, then even assuming there are international repercussions, they deal with them after taking office), you also fundamentally misunderstand the relevance of US support for Israel on the global stage. It very well may be an embarrassment to US ambassadors to Europe and they may well get scolded by their counterparts, but please name one G-20 country that is going to substantively change how it interacts with the US due to the US acting consistently with its historical practice. The US has essentially always had more pro-Israel policies than the rest of the world. That support is already baked into the US's foreign relations with each and every other country in the world. Just as American voters may care about Gaza in the abstract, but it won't matter at the ballot box, few if any countries care about the US maintaining its historical support for Israel, compared to ensuring they remain on favorable terms with the US for trade, aid, intelligence, security guarantees, etc. British citizens or Japanese citizens or whatever may have opinions on this, just as American citizens do, but the British government or Japanese government will never significantly prioritize this. Moreover, they are certainly not going to do so during the election because they all realize that a second Trump presidency is far worse for their relations with the US.

If you don't like dealing with these political realities, you are in the wrong thread.
 
That said, I would be surprised if a significant percentage of Americans care enough about Gaza to significantly alter their voting patterns. Even some of the hardliners in this thread are conceding that, when the chips are down, they will ultimately fall in line to keep Trump out of office.

Yes, of course people will fall in line. We are not sacrificing American democracy over Gaza. As stated above, unless American boots are on the ground, foreign policy simply isn’t that high in the public consciousness. Self-interest is unfortunately a law of human nature.
 
Yes, of course people will fall in line. We are not sacrificing American democracy over Gaza. As stated above, unless American boots are on the ground

Point of order - American boots have been on the ground in Gaza and American weaponry is being used almost exclusively.

EDIT: Sorry, I stand corrected. Boots on beach:

1724535700476.png


And what a brilliant use of American Taxpayer's dollar that was! It really made a difference to the aid situation in Gaza.

(Narrator: except it didn't).
 
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ant4456 all you've done there is show that you don't understand politics. people "care" about a lot of things. obviously. but when we're talking about politics people only actually "care" about things if it will matter to their vote. there is not a politician in America at any level from local up to federal who represents my positions on every issue. I'm actually pretty confident there isn't a single politician in America I would agree with on everything related to Israel/Palestine alone without getting into every other issue. I still find someone to vote for in each and every election and make compromises.

I would have preferred to have seen a polling question where people could pick 3 issues rather than only #1 or where people specifically said whether the issue would swing their vote, but foreign policy isn't making top 3 for almost anyone anyway. "foreign policy voters" practically speaking do not exist. they will only exist when voters feel they already live in a substantially perfect society themselves, i.e. never.

This is an example of one of the many reasons that representative democracy is a fundamentally flawed system, but we've yet to come up with a better one! you can end up with many perverse outcomes where when talking about Issue #10 a majority of people prefer X but because that is a weak preference and a position on the issue won't actually change their vote, and there's also a very vocal group who instead prefer Y and that WILL change their vote, Y wins out. X voters are already captured by virtue of other issues and their opinion on issues #1-9 mattered more. The way this discrepancy is most easily reconciled is by forcibly isolating that one issue #10 to direct democracy by the public, i.e. a ballot measure at the state or local level, where abortion rights and marijuana deciminalization routinely win, even sometimes in red states. No analogous process exists at the federal level. Sometimes this is good sometimes this is bad. The American public (and every country's public) at large is woefully uneducated about many things and if we had direct democracy on many things there'd be a lot of other outcomes I'm sure you wouldn't like. I don't think I need to probably search too hard to find issues that you disagree with the majority of the American public on.

S.A.C. Martin putting aside the fact that, again, none of this matters to the American voter when they go to the ballot box and therefore it doesn't matter to the candidates (i.e. they have to get elected first, then even assuming there are international repercussions, they deal with them after taking office), you also fundamentally misunderstand the relevance of US support for Israel on the global stage. It very well may be an embarrassment to US ambassadors to Europe and they may well get scolded by their counterparts, but please name one G-20 country that is going to substantively change how it interacts with the US due to the US acting consistently with its historical practice. The US has essentially always had more pro-Israel policies than the rest of the world. That support is already baked into the US's foreign relations with each and every other country in the world. Just as American voters may care about Gaza in the abstract, but it won't matter at the ballot box, few if any countries care about the US maintaining its historical support for Israel, compared to ensuring they remain on favorable terms with the US for trade, aid, intelligence, security guarantees, etc. British citizens or Japanese citizens or whatever may have opinions on this, just as American citizens do, but the British government or Japanese government will never significantly prioritize this. Moreover, they are certainly not going to do so during the election because they all realize that a second Trump presidency is far worse for their relations with the US.

If you don't like dealing with these political realities, you are in the wrong thread.

Direct democracy is based as fuck.

Or rather I think we should have a Federal system where the public is given a limited # of “slots” in a given time period (1 year or 2 years) where a package of legislation (like a bill) can be passed— and passed overriding both houses of Congress and zero chance for Presidential veto. Also zero ability for re-budgeting— these get priority even if we have to print/borrow money, or else it’s Congress’ job to figure out where they get thrifty.

Those packages would have their own vetting process, with public discourse and preliminary voting shaping the final package to get voted on; and representatives and their staff (experts) could get involved with drafting— but all preliminary and final votes are direct ballot initiatives. It would be like a democratically shaped open source community project with the voting public acting as judge/steering committee.

I think it would be extremely based and red pilled and I have 100% trust in the American population to use it well, and that it would result in a WAAAY better government than we have now— assuming the courts and executive branches genuinely treat it and execute it as law.

Americans basically always lean left and lean anti-corruption on these types of initiatives, and even the issues where I “disagree” with most Americans, I’m pretty confident that with a limited # of “shots” they would prioritize the things I do agree with them on. Lol

Genuinely think the first 2 would be a MASSIVE Election/Campaign Finance/Anticorruption package, and a MASSIVE healthcare overhaul.
 
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Americans basically always lean left and lean anti-corruption on these types of initiatives, and even the issues where I “disagree” with most Americans, I’m pretty confident that with a limited # of “shots” they would prioritize the things I do agree with them on. Lol

Americans like left-leaning policies but disassociate themselves from the left-leaning brand. It’s a vexing phenomenon that plays out in red states all the time. Florida notoriously passed a minimum wage hike overwhelmingly on the same ballot where people voted for the exact Republicans that opposed it. Democrats shouldn’t get too cocky about all the abortion initiatives on November ballots. A lot of pro-abortion rights measures will pass in states that will still vote Republican in the Pres and Senate.
 
Point of order.

Your foreign policy and how you yourself as a country are perceived by the rest of the world IS important. Gaza has, in a nutshell, exposed American complicity and double standards to the extent that pretty much the entire world is lining up on one side, and the other side is the USA, Israel, Germany and Argentina, with the UK now withdrawing from all but the most mild support for the war, and everyone else condemning both Israel’s conduct and America’s “ironclad” support for said conduct.

The United States has relied on its influence throughout the world for decades, built up military bases abroad, built up currency exchange agreements, and basically fought and bought its war to its current position, which it is now throwing on the bonfire in favour of supporting Israel.

You look at how countries the world over are now buying into either other foreign exchange mechanisms, or other alliances, or even going so far as to kick out American troops (look at Iraq), America’s influence has been really badly hurt by this whole sorry saga.

And frankly, it only has itself to blame. The USA provides the weapons for Israel’s “defence” and conduct and provides diplomatic cover. It shredding its own reputation on the world stage is the most damaging thing for its future. And frankly, I know there’s an element of isolationism within much of the politics discussed here, but ignore or dismiss foreign policy at your peril, would be my advice. This sh** matters.
This is way over indexing on gaza. Ukraine support was a genuine masterclass, NATO is strong, and the US pulled off an incredibly complex hostage swap with Russia that tapped into a lot of goodwill across several nations, and the Asia-Pacific alliances are strong. The US dollar is as strong as ever. China is stalling out its explosive growth and is developing like a mature economy now, and Russia is now losing territory to Ukraine. If US influence is to fall, some country needs to take the mantle. Is this the first time you think the US has had egg on its face? Vietnam, Iran Contra, WMDs in Iraq, Nixon’s impeachment, Trump’s win in 2016, etc. The fall of the US influence has been imminent for 70+ years now.
 
Americans like left-leaning policies but disassociate themselves from the left-leaning brand. It’s a vexing phenomenon that plays out in red states all the time. Florida notoriously passed a minimum wage hike overwhelmingly on the same ballot where people voted for the exact Republicans that opposed it. Democrats shouldn’t get too cocky about all the abortion initiatives on November ballots. A lot of pro-abortion rights measures will pass in states that will still vote Republican in the Pres and Senate.

And that’s the point of a system like that— you vote on a bill instead of a party.

And red states STILL vote for ballot initiatives that the Republican media has shrill screamed is Communist for months.

Their self-identification means nothing in the privacy of the voting room— or in the system I’m suggesting, on their phone or computer.
 
This is way over indexing on gaza. Ukraine support was a genuine masterclass

Except we now know that there was a peace deal scuppered in 2022 that would have been good for everyone, including Ukraine, and might have reduced significantly the amount of unnecessary damage, civilian deaths and environmental catastrophes we have seen https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2...hy-did-the-west-stop-a-peace-deal-in-ukraine/

“Masterclass“ - no, a masterclass would have prevented the war before it began, or reduced tensions and led to peace. What the USA has done is push for perpetual warfare. Globally. For decades.

So if you like, a masterclass in creating conflicts and dragging them out.

NATO is strong

And in response we have an aggressive Russia and BRICs.

and the US pulled off an incredibly complex hostage swap with Russia that tapped into a lot of goodwill across several nations

Goodwill in the prisoner exchange is not translated into goodwill on the ground in the UN. There is no love lost between US and Russia on the UNSC.

and the Asia-Pacific alliances are strong.

That’s more about China than the US.

The US dollar is as strong as ever.

What currency are you watching? It is steadily reclining as the “reserve currency” worldwide, a drop of 12% in a decade. https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/internationaldevelopment/2024/02/29/long-read-the-beginning-of-the-end-for-the-us-dollars-global-dominance/#:~:text=As a share of global,from 72 percent in 2000.

China is stalling out its explosive growth

Not relevant to the point about the USA’s relative standing globally.

Russia is now losing territory to Ukraine.

Irrelevant to the USA’s standing. How the USA conducts itself is the point.

If US influence is to fall, some country needs to take the mantle. Is this the first time you think the US has had egg on its face? Vietnam, Iran Contra, WMDs in Iraq, Nixon’s impeachment, Trump’s win in 2016, etc. The fall of the US influence has been imminent for 70+ years now.

I think it is the first time though that the USA has appeared to provide such significant amounts of weaponry and support such devastation on a basically unarmed nation in such a short amount of time. Go and watch the UN debates and it’s not just Russia condemning the role of the US, it’s across the global south and the Pacific and Europe.

You are confusing global standing with economic security in any event. The standing of the USA will lead to it being isolated in the UN - arguably it is already isolated. The use of the veto so regularly with regards Israel has pissed off just about everyone, including its strongest allies on the council.

These things matter and the level of trust in the USA as a nation is at an all time low. Again, uncomfortable truths, but ignore it at your peril.[/quote]
 
And in response we have an aggressive Russia and BRICs.
yeah I am sure that the existence of a military pact that was explicitly put in place against military aggression of a dictactorial state that directly supported the nazis and the holocaust is the reason for the aggression of a fascist, genocidal, terrorist state that destabilizes, invades and subjugates it's neighbouring countries

Except we now know that there was a peace deal scuppered in 2022 that would have been good for everyone, including Ukraine, and might have reduced significantly the amount of unnecessary damage, civilian deaths and environmental catastrophes we have seen https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2...hy-did-the-west-stop-a-peace-deal-in-ukraine/
so you think giving a genocidal state that wants to extend their empire the right to settle land that isn't rightfully theirs? You actually think that such a peace deal would actually bring peace? That it isn't an invitation for a terrorist state to go and invade further?

I don't get it. I really fucking don't. I consider what happens to Palestinians as genocide. How some leftists cannot apply the same logic to the actions of a non-western state is hypocritical and insane to me
 
yeah I am sure that the existence of a military pact that was explicitly put in place against military aggression of a dictactorial state that directly supported the nazis and the holocaust is the reason for the aggression of a fascist, genocidal, terrorist state that destabilizes, invades and subjugates it's neighbouring countries

This is confusing. Are you referring to NATO or BRICS? NATO was founded explicitly to counter the influence of the Soviet Union, who, despite their many flaws, didn't support the Nazis and definitely didn't support the holocaust, even if they were willing to be on relatively peaceful terms with them in the early stages of WWII (there were plenty of strategic reasons for the German-Soviet non-aggression pact, and western powers sought many such appeasement deals as well, although we tend to overlook those).

BRICS is a mutated financial bloc. They might act as a foil to NATO in practice in many ways but that wasn't why they were explicitly put in place against anyone, least of all any of the Axis powers in WWII.

No offense but unless I'm seriously misinterpreting what you're trying to say (feel free to clarify and correct me if I am) this post is steeped in propaganda and just not true. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to criticize Russia and especially their actions against Ukraine without stepping into the realm of ahistoricism.
 
I want to make it clear (because I am being misrepresented in the last few posts) that:

1) I was not commenting on the ethics of Russias invasion (I abhor it - and have also called their actions genocidal previously)
2) I was pointing out that peaceful processes and negotiation done genuinely in good faith are required to bring an end to conflicts,
3) constant warmongering is bad for the planet
4) The USA has been guilty of prolonging conflicts and warfare

BRICS is economic, NATO is militaristic. I think there is a lot of blame on both sides, Russia and NATO, for getting the planet to where it is today. Too much warmongering, period.

Hope that clarifies. Please stop making assumptions of my viewpoints in bad faith.
 
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