Still better than Delibird
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Project The PU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter trc
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As much as I like to agree with you, I can't.
While Delibird isn't that good, it can set up Spikes, hit decently hard with CB Hustle Ice Punch and Aerial Ace, can Rapid Spin or Defog away hazards, can kill off threats with D-Bond, and overall, is just a better Pokemon than Slaking. Slaking allows too much set-up with Truant, can be easily predicted, and is walled by everything with Protect or anything faster with Sub.
The fact is Delibird has a niche while slaking doesn't. It gets rapid spin, destiny bond, spikes and priority making it a passable suicide lead and can still surprise by hitting hard, max attack CB hustle jolly hits 470 attack, which definitely could be worse. Slaking has no niche. It makes a great banded or scarfed or even mixed mon, but it's outclassed in its niche because if truant, meaning that its band and scarf sets are outclassed by almost everything, especially it a tier filled with recovery, substitute, and stall. It has the unfortunate curse of being worse than its preevolution.
Going through the bottom tier mons, and I find that several don't need to be listed/ought to just be E. While Snover would see use if hail was good, it just isn't, and its stats are awful. Diglett's base attack is 55, meaning it needs to decide between either having shit attack or no sash(even with a band, jolly rarely OHKO's Barbaracle). Phione does absolutely nothing Golduck, Simipour, or Swanna do (rain dance + u-turn + hydration rest?), especially since rain isn't good in the tier. Sudowoodo is entirely outclassed by Golem, all it gets is wood hammer instead of a STAB EQ. Can't think of anything for Furret, Plusle or Minun to do that isn't straight up outclassed although I may be missing something, Unfezant is the worst bird by far without even Brave Bird (wish isn't worth it), and Corsola is outclassed as a bulky water and a SR setter (unless you need both?). This is probably just nitpicking while we should be discussing important mons, I just don't see a purpose for even mentioning these in the rankings.
I don't think Corsola is that bad considering that it does have amazing abilities and movepool, a decent type for a tier full of ice, fire, flying and bug types and just enough bulk to do its job as a support mon.
It's not. At the end of the day this is a viability ranking list, and you're not going to do well in PU at all if you use a Slaking. I've battled Slaking on the ladder before and it never accomplishes anything, usually just OHKOs stuff with Retaliate or Return, then I switch something else in, set up while they opponent has a turn doing nothing and win. It's not viable at all, it's better to use Tauros or something.
Even in a metagame filled with stuff like Larvitar and Pidgeotto it still probably wouldn't be usable.
The problem is that its stats make it just worse than Carracosta, Poliwrath, Swanna, Wartortle, and even Golduck has better defenses. It does get regenerator, but it can't switch into most attacks. It takes almost twice as much damage as Carracosta from a Scyther's brick break even before factoring in solid rock. It's uninvested special attack is also awful. Just run Carracosta with wish support, even rest/talk is probably better.
Something I've been looking at recently is Honedge. Has a great typing, and Ok stats to be able to run a similar set Doublade runs in RU while being a good spin blocker for Offensive teams. Honedge also does an excellent job against Musharna as Musharna would have to set up in order to do great damage against it. Honedge can get up and SD though then attack with Shadow Claw. Due to its Physical Defense it can set up on Pokemon like Metang / Relicanth and some others. I would probably start it around a D / D+ and see how it goes from there. Back to hazard removal, with Defog being a popular hazard removal, Honedge has a niche in being able to block rapid spins due to its ghost typing. Honedge also can beat one of the better defensive defoggers in Togetic. I'll continue to do more testing etc. (inb4 bashed)
Sorry for double post.
Honedge: Unranked --> D / D+
After having tested Honedge i have to say that it is FAR better than the D ranked mons we have, i feel like its place is between C and C+ its typing is just too good and checking Musharna, Scyther and like any Normal-type while being quite bulky is a fantastic niche :]
I personally think Carbink deserves the B- rank, as it is an excellent stop to some of the tiers most dangerous threats, such as Throh, Sneasel, and Scyther. Its low offensive presence isn't much of an issue, as most of the threats it intends to wall are taken care of by STAB Moonblast or Toxic. Carbink's great bulk allows it to take hits from some of the toughest attackers in the tier, which also allows it to set Stealth Rock, Sunny Day, or even Trick Room fairly easily. From what I can tell, it's far more effective than its C+ friends.
Carbink: C+ --> B- / B
Was scrolling down the list searching for where everybody had placed Vibrava in the tier only to discover it's actually unranked which I found unbelievable. It's one of the most reliable defoggers in the tier since it comes in on rocks with ease due to it resisting them, and can beat a good majority of the hazard stackers in the tier 1v1, eg: Garbodor. It also has respectable bulk when combined with Roost, and the access it has to U-Turn means it can Defog and/or maintain offensive pressure. Not the best Pokémon in the tier by all means, but it's most certainly reliable at keeping away hazards.
Vibrava: Unranked --> C+/B-
I was bored and I gave Vibrava a try today on a pretty offensive team that had some stealth rock weak Pokemon and a sash user and I have to say that it is a pretty decent stop to all entry hazards setters bar Goalie, Delibird, and Piloswine and has an easy time Defogging all around thanks to its hazards resiliency+useful resistances to fire, ground, rock, etc and can easily gain momentum with U-turn making it ok in bulky offensive teams imoWas scrolling down the list searching for where everybody had placed Vibrava in the tier only to discover it's actually unranked which I found unbelievable. It's one of the most reliable defoggers in the tier since it comes in on rocks with ease due to it resisting them, and can beat a good majority of the hazard stackers in the tier 1v1, eg: Garbodor. It also has respectable bulk when combined with Roost, and the access it has to U-Turn means it can Defog and/or maintain offensive pressure. Not the best Pokémon in the tier by all means, but it's most certainly reliable at keeping away hazards.
Vibrava: Unranked --> C+/B-
Not nearly as good as C+ rank imo but I think it has a solid place in D+/C-
Ninetales to A / A+ rank
Ninetales is ridiculously good in this meta right now, after setting up a nasty plot it can sweep a significant portion of the meta. It prefers having rocks and some spikes up to help it, but its not needed. It gets amazing coverage between Fire Blast / Flamethrower, Energy Ball, and Psyshock. Energy Ball and Psyshock hit pretty much everything that tries to come in on Ninetales and check it. It is incredibly easy to set up a Nasty Plot and sweep, after it gets up a Nasty Plot Ninetales is incredibly fast and can outspeed a large portion of the unboosted meta, not to mention it has pretty decent bulk and take a hit or two if need be. Ninetales is way to good to be sitting at the bottom of A and I feel a rise is in order.
Ninetales is ridiculously good in this meta right now, after setting up a nasty plot it can sweep a significant portion of the meta. It prefers having rocks and some spikes up to help it, but its not needed. It gets amazing coverage between Fire Blast / Flamethrower, Energy Ball, and Psyshock. Energy Ball and Psyshock hit pretty much everything that tries to come in on Ninetales and check it. It is incredibly easy to set up a Nasty Plot and sweep, after it gets up a Nasty Plot Ninetales is incredibly fast and can outspeed a large portion of the unboosted meta, not to mention it has pretty decent bulk and take a hit or two if need be. Ninetales is way to good to be sitting at the bottom of A and I feel a rise is in order.
imo, I think Ninetails is good enough where it is at A-. The main reason that stops it would be the offensive water types that can outspeed it with Aqua Jet and get a revenge kill (namely Carracosta and Basculin) and make short work of its -ish defense. Other than that I can totally see Ninetails be effective.
Barbaracle dies to a quad super effective Energy Ball and Basculin doesnt seem to be as common anymore, but obviously if you see on on the other team you need to predict the switch and nail it or have effective team support for it, but thats just one Pokemon, every other Water-type dies to a +2 Energy Ball so saying that Water-types beat it isnt true.
Okay. So maybe my rebuttal was a little foggy so I'll clarify. Ninetails should be solid A- because if it gets Nasty Plot up it pretty much guarantees a KO. The opposing player will have to sac whoever is facing Ninetails to get a clean switch to their revenge killer. Banded Aqua Jet Basculin will always OHKO Ninetails after life orb recoil. Purugly can use fake out and finish it off with return, leaving around 98% chance to KO after LO recoil. After LO recoil and Stealth Rock, Carracosta has around a 98% chance as well to KO with Aqua Jet. Choice Banded Scyther with Aerial Ace has a guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock.
In short, while Ninetails has dangerous sweeping potential, putting the right counters on your team (and possibly using Dragon tail/circle throw/whirwind/roar), and his allergy to rocks, imo, makes him not quite A+.
There are a few Pokemon that outspeed Ninetales in PU, a couple of the Pokemon you listed that outspeed are considered checks, meaning you can just switch out and keep offensive pressure up and easily wear them down. Obviously an Aqua Jet is gonna KO a fire type (unless its invested in defense). Thats like saying Sneasel should not be S rank because its KO'd by priority. You arent really bringing much up other than saying it has a few checks.
Ninetales in A seems like a good fit, but A+ seems a bit too high for me. The main reason for this us that NP Ninetales has a pretty difficult time sweeping against offensive teams because while 100 Speed is good, it leaves Ninetales really prone to being revenged by a ton of offensive threats, including Sneasel, Simipour, Scyther, Tauros, Purugly, and likely a few other things that I might be missing. These are very common Pokemon on offensive teams in the current meta, not to mention the fact that Carracosta and choice scarf users can revenge it as well. It's also SR weak, not that strong without LO and easy to wear down with it, and a bit hard to set up at times. Other than that, Ninetales is great and definitely A rank worthy, but these issues prevent it from being A+ rank.
Ninetales need to be A rank, she can sweep more than half tier by herself, but her speed and type give she much problems againts offensive teams. And A+ rank mons are better than she, they fit in basically any team and the offensive ones can hit hard even without a boost, meanwhile an unboosted Nine cannot do much damage.
I was testing some random stuff, and start to climp the ladder from 0 just for fun with the few time i have.
Cottonee from unranked to C-/D+
Prioriry Memento and Leech Seed are enough to give it a niche. Things like SD Sneasel or CM Swoobat have few chance to set up, but thanks to Memento they can do it againts much more threats. Memento is more hard to play around than Duals Screens and take a less move slot.
Togetic from A- to B+
She is fine and Fairy is a cool type, but bad for a defog user in this tier, Togetic lose to Garbo and Roselia, and even SR users like Marowak and Golem defeat she, and being weak to Ice in this meta sucks. In the other hand, Peli, Swanna and Mantine dont have any of this problems.
Stoutland from B- to B/B+
Normal-type is one of the best type in PU. Stou can spam STAB Retaliate better than anyone, him has 3 great abilitis, is THE sand rusher in the tier, and can revenge kill and check much stuff with Intimidate. I was using him in a Normal-Spam team with Ursaring, Boufa and Tauros, and him work at the same level as the others. Normal spam is dangerous, you cannot check them with any ghost-type or steell-type in tier, bad thing is the good amount of rock-types.
Leavanny from B to C-
She is bad, i dont want to see it this much in the ladder, the defogers and Avalugg stop she so easly. I dont know any reason to use it over Kricke to be honest.
Defensive Flareon need more love, is awesome.
I have more to say, but better start with this.
I was testing some random stuff, and start to climp the ladder from 0 just for fun with the few time i have.
Cottonee from unranked to C-/D+
Prioriry Memento and Leech Seed are enough to give it a niche. Things like SD Sneasel or CM Swoobat have few chance to set up, but thanks to Memento they can do it againts much more threats. Memento is more hard to play around than Duals Screens and take a less move slot.
Togetic from A- to B+
She is fine and Fairy is a cool type, but bad for a defog user in this tier, Togetic lose to Garbo and Roselia, and even SR users like Marowak and Golem defeat she, and being weak to Ice in this meta sucks. In the other hand, Peli, Swanna and Mantine dont have any of this problems.
Stoutland from B- to B/B+
Normal-type is one of the best type in PU. Stou can spam STAB Retaliate better than anyone, him has 3 great abilitis, is THE sand rusher in the tier, and can revenge kill and check much stuff with Intimidate. I was using him in a Normal-Spam team with Ursaring, Boufa and Tauros, and him work at the same level as the others. Normal spam is dangerous, you cannot check them with any ghost-type or steell-type in tier, bad thing is the good amount of rock-types.
Leavanny from B to C-
She is bad, i dont want to see it this much in the ladder, the defogers and Avalugg stop she so easly. I dont know any reason to use it over Kricke to be honest.
Defensive Flareon need more love, is awesome.
I have more to say, but better start with this.
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A few changes I would like to recommend. First off:
Chatot for A rank. I've pretty much been using Chatot on nearly every team I could possibly fit it on just because of how incredible it is with the right support. Stall is a really powerful playstyle in the current meta, and NP Chatot can pretty much single handedly 6-0 stall teams with little support. Really the only thing that even wants to take on Chatot on a common stall team is Bastiodon, but with a little bit of support from a fellow teammate, Chatot has no issue leveling defensive teams with a +2 Boomburst. Its shit defensive typing and poor bulk seems like it would keep it from ever setting up, but because of the huge prevalence of set up sweepers and defensive Pokemon in the tier, Chatot has no issue fucking them over with a well timed Encore and proceeding to set up in their face. Chatter lets it bypass Ghost-types, mainly Gourgeist and Misdreavus. Combined Chatot with Sticky Web support, and you got a Pokemon that can rip through both offensive and defensive teams. Hell, Chatot doesn't even need to set up against slightly weakened offensive teams. It's just so powerful, and threatens nearly every archetype out there. Its downsides obvious, but its positives easily outweigh the negatives IMO. True bird jesus, a potent wallbreaker AND sweeper.
Also I feel like Poliwrath should go to S rank. It's unarguably the best defensive Pokemon in the tier, and it glues so many teams together. Not only does it check a huge portion of the PU tier, such as Sneasel, Carracosta, Barbaracle, Golem, Piloswine, Purugly, Tauros, and Marowak, but it's also an outstanding Pokemon in general. RestTalk Circle Throw with hazard support makes it a bitch to face, and I've even seen bulky offensive sets to work too, seeing as how easy it is for it to set up on many threats. While it does have exploitable weaknesses, the support it provides to many teams is undeniable. Pretty much every team would benefit from it in someway. It's an S rank defensive/support threat.
Rotom-F should be in A rank IMO. It's one of the best revenge killers in the tier with a Choice Scarf, and its offensive typing makes it a bitch to deal with. To best honest, it's pretty much a staple on most offensive teams just because of the sheer amount of Pokemon it keeps in check. The LO SubSplit set severely pressures stall, while the Choice Specs set is near impossible to switch into. It has an array of other support moves too such as Will-O-Wisp and Thunder Wave, and it's quite bulky. Its Ice-typing sucks defensively and it's weak to SR, but much like Poliwrath it can fit onto a wide variety of teams, making it a great glue Pokemon. I feel like it compares a lot more offensively with the Pokemon in A rank.
Chatot for A rank. I've pretty much been using Chatot on nearly every team I could possibly fit it on just because of how incredible it is with the right support. Stall is a really powerful playstyle in the current meta, and NP Chatot can pretty much single handedly 6-0 stall teams with little support. Really the only thing that even wants to take on Chatot on a common stall team is Bastiodon, but with a little bit of support from a fellow teammate, Chatot has no issue leveling defensive teams with a +2 Boomburst. Its shit defensive typing and poor bulk seems like it would keep it from ever setting up, but because of the huge prevalence of set up sweepers and defensive Pokemon in the tier, Chatot has no issue fucking them over with a well timed Encore and proceeding to set up in their face. Chatter lets it bypass Ghost-types, mainly Gourgeist and Misdreavus. Combined Chatot with Sticky Web support, and you got a Pokemon that can rip through both offensive and defensive teams. Hell, Chatot doesn't even need to set up against slightly weakened offensive teams. It's just so powerful, and threatens nearly every archetype out there. Its downsides obvious, but its positives easily outweigh the negatives IMO. True bird jesus, a potent wallbreaker AND sweeper.
Also I feel like Poliwrath should go to S rank. It's unarguably the best defensive Pokemon in the tier, and it glues so many teams together. Not only does it check a huge portion of the PU tier, such as Sneasel, Carracosta, Barbaracle, Golem, Piloswine, Purugly, Tauros, and Marowak, but it's also an outstanding Pokemon in general. RestTalk Circle Throw with hazard support makes it a bitch to face, and I've even seen bulky offensive sets to work too, seeing as how easy it is for it to set up on many threats. While it does have exploitable weaknesses, the support it provides to many teams is undeniable. Pretty much every team would benefit from it in someway. It's an S rank defensive/support threat.
Rotom-F should be in A rank IMO. It's one of the best revenge killers in the tier with a Choice Scarf, and its offensive typing makes it a bitch to deal with. To best honest, it's pretty much a staple on most offensive teams just because of the sheer amount of Pokemon it keeps in check. The LO SubSplit set severely pressures stall, while the Choice Specs set is near impossible to switch into. It has an array of other support moves too such as Will-O-Wisp and Thunder Wave, and it's quite bulky. Its Ice-typing sucks defensively and it's weak to SR, but much like Poliwrath it can fit onto a wide variety of teams, making it a great glue Pokemon. I feel like it compares a lot more offensively with the Pokemon in A rank.
I have two normal-type hard-hitters I want to talk about. Normal is a great type due to the rarity of fighting types in the tier, and the lack of Steel types, meaning they can fire off STAB moves easier and aren't scared out as easily.
I agree with Stoutland from B- to B because of how much of a great offensive presence it has. It is incredible in the sand with Sand Rush, allowing it to act as a wall-breaker or late game sweeper. It even has a good movepool. Choice Band allows Stoutland to retaliate incredibly hard. You could even run Intimidate to cripple offensive threats, allowing you to dish out damage without taking a lot of damage, since Stoutland has a respectable 85/90/90 defenses even while maintaining a threat by making sure nothing can just switch in. It even hits Avalugg hard, especially ones that have taken prior SR damage once or twice. 252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 178-210 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. I feel that it deserves to be a solid B due to how well this pokemon is able to fire off hits or just continually be an annoyance to your team with it's decent bulk and good attack stat. I don't feel it is deserving of a B+ ranking due to the fact that one of the main reasons to run Stoutland is for Choice Band Sand Rush, which requires a supporting pokemon to set up sand and find a way to switch Stoutland in for a limited number of turns. Also it could benefit from webs support, and definitely set-up SR for some 2HKOs (Avalugg, Tangela, etc).
I also think Ursaring deserves B+ to A-. With two incredibly abilities in Guts and Quick Feet, and an already gigantic attack stat, Ursaring is a very reliable wall breaker, revenge killer, or a late game sweeper. It also runs a very nasty Guts+Sticky Webs combo, making sure nothing switches in without regretting it, as it 2HKOs and OHKOs a lot of Pokemon in the tier. If you want to up the power of your obliteration, you could even run SD to ensure that you take out Avaluggs, Musharnas, Tangelas, Piloswines, or you get the picture: every pokemon in the tier. It also has a very respectable movepool in Close Combat, Facade, EQ, Crunch, even moves like Play Rough, Seed Bomb, and Stone Edge (which wouldn't be the best picks for it, but are even there for options). Even though status does whittle down his HP, his decent 90/75/75 defenses allow it to continue running train all over mons even with priority (252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ursaring: 87-103 (27.1 - 32%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after toxic damage; assuming that they are running LO Sneasel and not the Eviolite variant). I feel A- is a fair placing because while it has very high offensive presence, it still may require support from hazards or webs in some situations. He also doesn't have to worry about being burned by Wil-o-Wisp or crippled by a Toxic, giving it more switch-in opportunities. Can't be crippled by T-wave when it's status is up.
I agree with Stoutland from B- to B because of how much of a great offensive presence it has. It is incredible in the sand with Sand Rush, allowing it to act as a wall-breaker or late game sweeper. It even has a good movepool. Choice Band allows Stoutland to retaliate incredibly hard. You could even run Intimidate to cripple offensive threats, allowing you to dish out damage without taking a lot of damage, since Stoutland has a respectable 85/90/90 defenses even while maintaining a threat by making sure nothing can just switch in. It even hits Avalugg hard, especially ones that have taken prior SR damage once or twice. 252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 178-210 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. I feel that it deserves to be a solid B due to how well this pokemon is able to fire off hits or just continually be an annoyance to your team with it's decent bulk and good attack stat. I don't feel it is deserving of a B+ ranking due to the fact that one of the main reasons to run Stoutland is for Choice Band Sand Rush, which requires a supporting pokemon to set up sand and find a way to switch Stoutland in for a limited number of turns. Also it could benefit from webs support, and definitely set-up SR for some 2HKOs (Avalugg, Tangela, etc).
I also think Ursaring deserves B+ to A-. With two incredibly abilities in Guts and Quick Feet, and an already gigantic attack stat, Ursaring is a very reliable wall breaker, revenge killer, or a late game sweeper. It also runs a very nasty Guts+Sticky Webs combo, making sure nothing switches in without regretting it, as it 2HKOs and OHKOs a lot of Pokemon in the tier. If you want to up the power of your obliteration, you could even run SD to ensure that you take out Avaluggs, Musharnas, Tangelas, Piloswines, or you get the picture: every pokemon in the tier. It also has a very respectable movepool in Close Combat, Facade, EQ, Crunch, even moves like Play Rough, Seed Bomb, and Stone Edge (which wouldn't be the best picks for it, but are even there for options). Even though status does whittle down his HP, his decent 90/75/75 defenses allow it to continue running train all over mons even with priority (252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ursaring: 87-103 (27.1 - 32%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after toxic damage; assuming that they are running LO Sneasel and not the Eviolite variant). I feel A- is a fair placing because while it has very high offensive presence, it still may require support from hazards or webs in some situations. He also doesn't have to worry about being burned by Wil-o-Wisp or crippled by a Toxic, giving it more switch-in opportunities. Can't be crippled by T-wave when it's status is up.
I have a second observation about Ursaring that I didn't see here, the thing I feel that would mainly keep Ursaring from A or A+ would be his horrible speed. You could take advantage of Quick feet, but Toxic Orb threatens his longevity more than a Flame Orb (I think) and he doesn't get that unholy attack boost. Then if you do run a Guts SD set, with max HP he will be outspeed by pretty much anything base 85 or higher even with sticky web support. Then if you try to invest in speed, he'll outspeed a large majority of the tier under Sticky Web support, but then it leaves him less prone to take hits due to his timer(s) of abilities with no HP investment.
Does this make him bad? By no means. Ursaring can be a serious threat to teams even without running swords dance. Which is why I agree he should be in A-. He's basically a more bulky version Rampardos.
Does this make him bad? By no means. Ursaring can be a serious threat to teams even without running swords dance. Which is why I agree he should be in A-. He's basically a more bulky version Rampardos.
I think Ursaring probably deserves A/A+, despite the low speed. It 2hko's every defensive mon in the tier except for physically defensive Dusclops after rocks (unless I messed up a calc), and it's pretty easy to get it in pretty much for free on things like Togetic, Piloswine, and Mantine. A free switch into Ursaring basically guarantees a kill because offensive mons can't switch in and defensive mons are slower and can't do enough back. I've been running just max speed and attack adamant with facade, crunch, close combat, and thunder punch (for pelipper) and I haven't been disappointed yet. Best wall breaker in the tier imo
Fighting types arent neccesarily rare, more none can really switchin to stab normal returns. True all the steels are used up, but rock / ghost are still common defensive typings.
Even with a quick feet boost, ursaring still isnt the fastest thing in the world, sneasel doesnt need to ice shard ursaring becausr ursaring only hits 107.5 speed aftrr a quick feet boost, so sneasel can fire off a powerful knock off or low kick first before dying.
Actually ursaring does fear burn if quick feet. True facade's damage isnt reduced by burn anymore, but all of its other attacks lose significant damage. Guts doesnt fear burn ofc, but then ursaring is as slow as bricks.
Personally I feel ursaring should be a+, not because of these flaws or its ability to wipe teams clean, but because it can run a wide range of sets, from the traditional guts/quick feet, to sub sd/bu and even assault vested ursaring makes a decent tank. Being able to be a sweeper, tank, or wallbreaker (sometimes all in 1) makes ursaring a huge threat to all teams without something faster, kinda like chatot on steroids.
Baby-doll eyes ursaring, RIP meta
Beheeyem to B+/A- Sure mushy and kafabra exist but the thing is that the comparison of them is apples to oranges if anything mr mime is very similar to beheeyem, both having access to similar coverage and boosting moves. The thing that sperates then from each other is analytic for beheeyem and dual typing plus speed and somewhat technician for mr mime. This might make mr mime sound like the better choice but choice specs beheeyem is imo one of the best wallbreakers in the current metagame due to forcing so many switches, hitting nearly all switchins even resistances hard via analytic. Mr Mime on the other hand has tools like technician hidden power and stab dazzling gleam which can nail dark types.
Octillery to C/C+ I was very intriqued by this thing due to its godly movepool which includes lots of moves coveted but not obtained by other water types such as fire blast, energy ball, and water spout. After trying this thing with webs I realized that it is a really good wallbreaker with specs. Hardly anything can switch into a full health choice specs water spout, and those few switchins can be hit by one of octillery's coverage options eg gourgeist gets nailed by fire blast, poliwrath is vaporized by energy ball etc. I feel it could go higher than c+ but for now I just want to start at c+.
The only reason that they don't go up higher is because they are very prediction heavy mons and are slow, even with webs.
These assume the target is switching in:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Beheeyem Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Musharna: 356-420 (81.6 - 96.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Beheeyem Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 228-268 (53.7 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Beheeyem Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Togetic: 260-308 (83 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Beheeyem Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 192-226 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Beheeyem Psychic vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Flareon: 207-244 (76.3 - 90%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Beheeyem Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Misdreavus: 246-289 (75.9 - 89.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Beheeyem Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tangela: 274-324 (82 - 97%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Beheeyem Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Bastiodon: 117-138 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Beheeyem Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 385-454 (102.9 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Beheeyem Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gourgeist-Super: 264-312 (70.5 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Beheeyem Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Musharna: 356-420 (81.6 - 96.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Beheeyem Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 228-268 (53.7 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Beheeyem Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Togetic: 260-308 (83 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Beheeyem Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 192-226 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Beheeyem Psychic vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Flareon: 207-244 (76.3 - 90%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Beheeyem Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Misdreavus: 246-289 (75.9 - 89.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Beheeyem Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Tangela: 274-324 (82 - 97%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Beheeyem Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Bastiodon: 117-138 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Beheeyem Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 385-454 (102.9 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Beheeyem Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gourgeist-Super: 264-312 (70.5 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Octillery to C/C+ I was very intriqued by this thing due to its godly movepool which includes lots of moves coveted but not obtained by other water types such as fire blast, energy ball, and water spout. After trying this thing with webs I realized that it is a really good wallbreaker with specs. Hardly anything can switch into a full health choice specs water spout, and those few switchins can be hit by one of octillery's coverage options eg gourgeist gets nailed by fire blast, poliwrath is vaporized by energy ball etc. I feel it could go higher than c+ but for now I just want to start at c+.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gourgeist-Super: 294-346 (78.6 - 92.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Gourgeist-Super: 394-464 (105.3 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 258-304 (60.8 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Roselia: 272-322 (89.4 - 105.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 190-224 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (not ever gonna see this lol but still)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 302-356 (78.6 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pelipper: 229-270 (70.8 - 83.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Musharna: 360-424 (82.5 - 97.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Togetic: 222-262 (70.9 - 83.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 162-192 (51.7 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Gourgeist-Super: 394-464 (105.3 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 258-304 (60.8 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Roselia: 272-322 (89.4 - 105.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 190-224 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (not ever gonna see this lol but still)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Poliwrath: 302-356 (78.6 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pelipper: 229-270 (70.8 - 83.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Musharna: 360-424 (82.5 - 97.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Togetic: 222-262 (70.9 - 83.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Octillery Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 162-192 (51.7 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
- Status