The RU Viability Ranking Thread

[Molk]

Shout-out to PK Gaming for this idea and Ebeast and Honus for the reformatting of the thread and making the picture, respectively.

So basically, the purpose of this thread is to discuss the viability of most, if not all relevant Pokemon in the metagame. The pokemon are organized into ranks, with S rank being the highest, and D rank being the lowest. Top tier pokemon such as Sceptile and Druddigon go into S, for example, while pokemon that are totally awful go into D, the definitions are explained later on in the thread.

Now, what is your job here? Your job is to discuss the ranks given to every pokemon, make arguments for making a pokemon higher or lower ranked, and also to discuss the possible ranks for the "untested" rank. These are pokemon that might have potential, but havent been tested enough to get official ranks yet, if you have used any of these, now is your time to say so!


The overall tier list for RU is in alphabetical order. This is mostly for organizational purposes, so it has no bearing on whether or not you think Ditto is superior to Dusknoir. While that may be true, I'd rather hear it from you!


S Rank: Reserved for the top threats in the RU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well with little to no extra support. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

Top:

• 
  Druddigon
• 
  Slowking

Mid:

• 
  Moltres
• 
  Sceptile

Low:

• 
  Escavalier
• 
  Kabutops
  
• 
  Uxie

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the RU metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively, but still perform less consistently than the average S rank Pokemon. A rank Pokemon have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.

Top:

• 
  Alomomola
• 
  Durant
• 
  Emboar
  
• 
  Entei
• 
  Gallade
• 
  Magneton
  
• 
  Qwilfish
• 
  Rhydon
  
• 
  Rotom-C
• 
  Smeargle
• 
  Sigilyph

Mid:

• 
  Absol
• 
  Golurk
  
• 
  Lilligant
• 
  Mesprit
  
• 
  Spiritomb
  
• 
  Steelix
  
• 
  Tangrowth
• 
  Tauros

Low:

• 
  Accelgor
• 
  Aggron
• 
  Omastar
• 
  Rotom-N

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are slightly above average in the RU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential

Top:

• 
  Amoonguss
• 
  Braviary
• 
  Cinccino
• 
  Galvantula
• 
  Hitmonlee
• 
  Jynx
• 
  Poliwrath
• 
  Roselia
• 
  Samurott
• 
  Zangoose

Mid:

• 
  Aerodactyl
• 
  Bouffalant
• 
  Clefable
• 
  Crustle
• 
  Cryogonal
  
• 
  Exeggutor
• 
  Ferroseed
• 
  Fraxure
• 
  Kangaskhan
  
• 
  Lanturn
  
• 
  Ludicolo
• 
  Magmortar
  
• 
  Manectric
• 
  Medicham
• 
  Miltank
• 
  Musharna
• 
  Sawsbuck
• 
  Swellow
• 
  Torterra
• 
  Typhlosion

Low:

• 
  Carracosta
  
• 
  Drifblim
• 
  Feraligatr
  
• 
  Hariyama
• 
  Haunter
  
• 
  Klinklang
  
• 
  Misdreavus
  
• 
  Piloswine
  
• 
  Regirock
• 
  Scolipede
  
• 
  Seismitoad

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the RU metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being top tier threats. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be as effective as higher ranked Pokemon in RU. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

Top:

• 
  Altaria
• 
  Archeops
• 
  Cacturne
  
• 
  Charizard
• 
  Crawdaunt
• 
  Dragonair
• 
  Duosion
  
• 
  Eelektross
  
• 
  Gardevoir
• 
  Gurdurr
• 
  Hitmonchan
• 
  Mandibuzz
  
• 
  Pinsir
• 
  Primeape
• 
  Scyther
• 
  Shiftry
• 
  Zweilous

Mid:

• 
  Drapion
• 
  Electivire
• 
  Garbodor
• 
  Kadabra
• 
  Quagsire
• 
  Rotom-S
• 
  Swanna
  
• 
  Victreebel

Low:

• 
  Arbok
• 
  Basculin
• 
  Butterfree
• 
  Camerupt
• 
  Gabite
• 
  Lickilicky
  
• 
  Liepard
• 
  Murkrow
• 
  Relicanth
• 
  Rotom-F
  
• 
  Sandslash
• 
  Scraggy
• 
  Vigoroth
  
• 
  Volbeat
• 
  Weezing
  
• 
  Whimsicott

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are below average in the RU metagame. These Pokemon often require very significant amounts of support with a relatively low reward compared to higher ranked Pokemon.


Top:

• 
  Ditto
  
• 
  Flareon
• 
  Gothorita
• 
  Leafeon
  
• 
  Linoone
• 
  Marowak
  
• 
  Muk
• 
  Riolu
• 
  Serperior
• 
  Simipour
  
• 
  Skuntank
• 
  Torkoal

Low:

• 
  Articuno
• 
  Audino
• 
  Dusknoir
• 
  Golem
• 
  Gorebyss
• 
  Natu
  
• 
  Ninjask
• 
  Rapidash
  
• 
  Shedinja
• 
  Shelgon
  
• 
  Swoobat
  
• 
  Vileplume

Untested Rank: Reserved for pokemon that might have niches, but havent been sufficiently tested. Post your experiences with them here so we can give them a tier.
and now onto: THE RULES.

~Rules~​

~Only nominate viable Pokemon. We are not going to put every legal Pokemon in RU on the list. There is no reason to put stuff that no one will ever use.
~Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will not be tolerated
~No flaming
~Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
~No talk about editing the OFFICIAL smogon tier lists.
~Only pokemon in RU and below are up for nomination, pokemon in higher tiers are not allowed to be nominated, this should be common sense but lol someone nommed nidoking for S rank.

 

[Oglemi]

I honestly don't see any reason to use Mandibuzz anymore. She's easily 2HKOed by three of the four special attackers in the S tier after SR (which she has a weakness to), which are on a majority of every team. Not to mention she's total Toxic and Taunt bait and defensive teams are just not as good as offensive teams. I've never been able to get her to work on a balanced team either.

The only thing I'd consider that she has going for her is her OK type synergy with Nidoqueen. But then the issue arises again, what is she really switching in on? Sceptile and Lilligant, if even? She has to Roost if she switches in on HP Rock (that or suicide take down Sceptile at the same time with BB), which is just a free switch for Esca (CB Megahorn is a OHKO after SR or BB recoil), Rhydon, Kabutops, etc.

I only see her as a deadweight and would argue she belongs at the very least in the D tier.

 

[Molk]

I honestly don't see any reason to use Mandibuzz anymore. She's easily 2HKOed by three of the four special attackers in the S tier after SR (which she has a weakness to), which are on a majority of every team. Not to mention she's total Toxic and Taunt bait and defensive teams are just not as good as offensive teams. I've never been able to get her to work on a balanced team either.

The only thing I'd consider that she has going for her is her OK type synergy with Nidoqueen. But then the issue arises again, what is she really switching in on? Sceptile and Lilligant, if even? She has to Roost if she switches in on HP Rock (that or suicide take down Sceptile at the same time with BB), which is just a free switch for Esca (CB Megahorn is a OHKO after SR or BB recoil), Rhydon, Kabutops, etc.

I only see her as a deadweight and would argue she belongs at the very least in the D tier.

Yeah, looking back now Mandibuzz hasnt caused me much annoyance if any since BW1 Avira Stall (me shudders ;-;). Its still kinda annoying if my powerful physical attackers are down, but overall it never really does much damage, and all it seems to do half the time is just sit there and roost until it dies. I would be fine with moving it to the D tier, but i still think it is more viable than Munchlax and lol Metang.

Btw, ive only used him in 8 or so battles, but im pretty sure seismitoad will end up in at least B tier when it all comes down to it. Both of its sets are very effective, and with water absorb added on to its defensive set, it can come in on pokemon like kabutops and lanturn with impunity and just destroy them. It even has stealth rock now to provide some more team support! Offensive rain dance is also very dangerous thanks to its ability to set up both Stealth Rock and Rain Dance while still keeping up offensive momentum with hydro pump/earth power. Its also immune to the electric-type moves that usually plague other rain sweepers, making it almost essential on rain imo.

 

[sfgiantsfanmike]

Would think that Uxie would qualify as S ranked.

-It's versatile: can be used in many ways, be it a wall, a 'lead'/hazard setter, dual screens, sub/cm to name the ones I am aware of.

-It walls many things and can check more

-Seems like the go to wall of RU, it seems easy enough to fit unto most teams.

There's probably more I could get into but my fat fingers plus my phones keyboard is annoying the heck out of me...

 

[/B/utterfree]

I can agree from experience that I tried too hard to make Mandibuzz useful in a defensive team. I've had past transgressions with it such where I replaced it with something that was more effective in RU.

Originally, Mandibuzz sat perfectly in D tier. I guess it shall go back there unless people wish to discuss how Buzz got stuff from B2W2 that makes it too invaluable for D/E tiers (I am in fact willing to just let her be in E tier; there are more than enough Dark-types that make her obsolete in RU in general).

ONE MORE THING x1:

I can agree with Uxie being moved up to S Rank. It is one of the few defensive walls that hosts a majority of different roles for itself. I'd like to think of Uxie as "Cresselia 1.5". I can also argue something similar for Musharna, though. However, not enough people use Musharna for her to be in S Rank, so this distinction will have to wait.

ONE MORE THING x2:

I'm also going to argue that Dusknoir is a decent Pokemon. Not amazing, but decent. Here lie my arguments for why Noir should be in B Rank (not any higher than B Rank, mind):

*Very few Ghosts to legitimately compete with in the tier. It shares a niche exclusively with Spiritomb as a Cryogonal counter. Cofagrigus is no longer present to compete with Noir in RU, albeit neither outclasses the other really because Dusknoir is to hit from the Physical spectrum whereas Cofagrigus would hit from the Special spectrum. Spiritomb works as a mixed defender, even having Mixed offensive stats. Speaking of, Spiritomb is really the only Ghost-type that Dusknoir is outclassed by.

*Base 100 Attack, and base 135 defenses. Compare this with 92 Atk and 108 defenses from Spiritomb. Spiritomb only beats it in HP by 5 points (45 HP from Dusknoir, 50 HP from Spiritomb), and in Special Attack by 27 (65 Sp. Atk. from Dusknoir compared to 92 Sp. Atk. from Spiritomb) while otherwise losing in Speed by 10 points (45 Speed from Dusknoir to 35 Speed from Spiritomb). Spiritomb also is Dark/Ghost, though, which means that its presence in A Rank is unmatched as a Ghost.

*An expansive Physical movepool for which it can counter more than just Cryogonal with. It has a good Special movepool as well, albeit 65 Sp. Atk. isn't doing it many favors admittedly. However, Noir's movepool does include, both Physical and Support moves involved:

**Fire Punch to give a more solid blow to Cryo, as well as dismantle Escavalier.
**Ice Punch for a handful of Pokemon, namely Nidoqueen and Druddigon among many others.
**ThunderPunch for the likes of Moltres and other Flying-types, or for a majority of Bulky Waters who think they have a shot against Dusknoir.
**FocusPunch, a key move in some of Noir's sets
**Shadow Sneak / Shadow Punch - reasonably good STAB; the former serves as priority that Spiritomb also has, while Shadow Punch hits harder and doesn't care about accuracy
**DynamicPunch - which, when boosted by Gravity, becomes 83% accurate. Unless the analysis for Dusknoir in OU is currently incorrect...
**Earthquake - For those who are x4 weak to Ground, as well as for most Steel-types
**Rock Slide for Fliers and Pokemon x4 weak to Rock; while not that great compared to the Elemental Punches, it is still solid enough to warrant consideration in the movepool
**Return - Still decent, although you get nearly-perfect coverage from Fighting/Ghost attacks alone
**An array of support moves for full tank sets which are still effective:
***For example, it can help set up Trick Room or weather (Rain Dance/Sunny Day) so that other Pokemon on the team can triumph against your foes; the nefarious and notorious Torment which is uncommonly seen on Heatran in OU; Toxic, if you're not too fond of Will-o-Wisp; Pursuit, albeit Spiritomb is arguably better at that due to STAB; and last but certainly not least, Psych Up - so people don't just think they can spam Bulk Up/Calm Mind/Quiver Dance/Shift Gear on you without Noir getting the boosts, too

However, a lot of Dusknoir's Physical movepool is also shared by Golurk.

Again, while I do agree that Spiritomb is slightly better, Dusknoir is still a really good Pokemon in its own right and shouldn't be overlooked.

 

[ss234]

I'd like to propose Rotom for A rank. It is the only spin-blocker capable of beating Kabutops, which is a huge plus for offensive teams and defensive teams. It italso has an excellent typing, giving it 3 immunities and important resistances to electric, flying and bug. This great typing gives it a nearly unresisted STAB combo, with only Steelix and Magneton resisting it, and there STAB's are resisted by Rotom. The SubWisp set is able to beat some of the tiers top physical attackers, such as Hitmonlee, Swellow, Zangoose provided you don't switch into a Night Slash and Escavalier, while the SubSplit set is able to beat it's common counters, such as Spiritomb(sub on the switch, if it goes for the Pursuit then you can 2HKO with Tbolt, and if it Sucker Punches, you can switch out).

Also, I think Golurk should be at least B rank. I have been using Golurk a lot recently, and it is really good. Choice Band Golurk quite literally destroys everything, thanks to it's great coverage and power. Tangrowth and Weezing are his only counters, and only Tangrowth is seen commonly at all. Everything else is 2HKO'd by him. The majority of walls in the tier, such as Slowking and Lanturn, are outright 1HKO'd by Shadow Punch or Earthquake respectively, while Poliwrath and Steelix are 2HKO'd by Earthquake after Stealth Rock in Poliwrath's case. Thanks to his typing, he can switch in on quite a lot of common pokes like Escavalier and 1HKO with Fire Punch, or smash him with Earthquake.

Finally, everyone knows that SD Lum Berry Sandslash can beat Spiritomb right? Sandslash only needs 156 HP ev's to avoid the 2HKO from Wise Glasses Sucker Punch, which is probably the most common item at the moment, and Earthquake easily 2HKO's if you hit it on the switch, and you can also beat Rotom if you go with Shadow Claw in the last slot-I know it's gimmicky, but it does allow you to beat all the spin-blockers of the tier.

 

[New Breed]

I'm going to have to agree with Sfgiantsfanmike and /B/utterfree on Uxie being moved up, Uxie's great 75/130/130 defences along with Base 95 Speed is pretty cool. Uxie also has access to alot of support moves such as Reflect, Light Screen, Stealth Rock, Heal Bell, Toxic, Yawn, Thunder Wave, Sunny Day, Rain Dance, Trick and Trick Room to name a few. This allows Uxie to be adapted to do what your team needs most which offer it plenty of opportunities to fit on just about any team. Uxie also has access to Calm Mind which can turn it into a very deadly sweeper.

 

[/B/utterfree]

Theoretical changes (NOT ones that will happen until several hours from now at the minimum)

*Uxie moves up from A Rank to S Rank.
*Mandibuzz moves down from C Rank to D Rank.
*Rotom-N moves up from B Rank to A Rank.
*Golurk moves up from C Rank to B Rank.
*Dusknoir moves up from D Rank to B Rank.

Arguments are being made from these, my own being the Dusknoir one. I agree with every single one of the other proposed changes as they all make sense (especially the Rotom-N one). Regarding Mandibuzz and Uxie, there are enough people in agreement such that I can make the changes for those two Pokemon right now. On the other hand, I'd rather do more substantial changes and will have my next set of changes be the ones presumed above. There have to be substantial disagreements to warrant otherwise, though.

If someone doesn't think Golurk should move up a Rank, or someone doesn't think Dusknoir should be B Rank (tops), speak now or forever hold your piece/peace/pieces/does-it-even-matter. I don't even care if it's a HuntSaboteur alt typing; as long as the argument's good, I'll listen and consider it.

 

[Molk]

Yeah im going to have to honestly agree with Uxie in S rank, i was debating him and escavalier being in S rank while i was making the original list, but Oglemi told me to put escavalier in A for now, and some of the community didnt think Uxie deserved S for some odd reason.....

Uxie is an incredible support pokemon, possibly the best support pokemon the tier has to offer. Im honestly hard pressed to think of a relevant support move Uxie doesnt get, lol.(wish was the only one i could think of off hand). It gets pretty much every field move from Rain Dance to Trick Room, its able to set up screens and can even use memento to provide an even easier set up. Uxie also gets Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave, Heal Bell, and U-turn, among other things. All of which can be essential to the success of a team. With Uxie's monster bulk, it shouldnt have much trouble setting any of these up. In fact, i usually run quite a bit of special attack on uxie because it takes pretty much every hit anyway >_>. Last but not least, Uxie is also one of the best nidoqueen checks Ru has to offer, not being weak to any of its standard moves, and only needing max hp+a very small amount of special defense to take two sludge waves after rocks, move uxie up to S, he deserves it =).

I also agree with moving Rotom-N and Golurk up a rank. Rotom got a big boost after cofagrigus left, as it is now the only spinblocker capable of stopping kabutops with its bulky set. Rotom might not seem like the best candidate for a bulky set, but its typing is what seals the deal. Electric/Ghost combined with levitate is one of the best possible non steel defensive typings in the game imo. Your immune to normal, fighting, and ground, you resist Steel, (klinklang and steelix), flying (Swellow and Braviary), Bug (Scolipede, Scyther, Accelgor), Electric (Manectric, Rotom-C, Galvantula, Opposing Rotom), and Poison. While only having a weakness to dark and ghost type moves. Rotom isnt just limited to the defensive role either, rotom can make itself known as an offensive presence as well. Electric/Ghost isnt just good defensively, its good offensively too, and few resist its STAB combo in RU. Rotom is perfectly capable of running a Scarf set, a specs set, and many sets focusing on the move substitute. Overall, rotom is A rank imo.

I cant really say much about golurk, but ive seen silvershadow use him to great effect in quite a few RU matches, it can usually take a hit or two, and it hits back twice as hard. Golurk can also set up stealth rock, and despite not being the best spinblocker defensively, note how neither of the good spinners can switch in on golurk at all, pretty cool mon imo and i would be happy to move it to b Rank.

 

[/B/utterfree]

The Following Changes Have Been Made

*Uxie moves up from A Rank to S Rank.
*Mandibuzz moves down from C Rank to D Rank.
*Rotom-N moves up from B Rank to A Rank.
*Golurk moves up from C Rank to B Rank.
*Dusknoir moves up from D Rank to B Rank.

Now that those changes have been covered, I'm going to go get breakfast since I just woke up. I'll be on IRC momentarily. I'd like to witness more arguments on this thread, but I am currently satisfied for the moment.

 

[-Tsunami-]

ok. Time to change this.

Dusknoir is a crappy Pokemon that should be in the Munchlax level. It has no recovery, isn't the best spin-blocker, is pretty weak offensively if you invest in defenses which you need to because otherwise it sucks even more, it can't do anything to any Pokemon outside of burn it, which is a complete joke. To run random stuff like Fire Punch you're just taking up moveslots. Dusknoir can only run 4 moves, and Pain Split / Shadow Sneak / Will-O-Wisp are non-negotiable, as otherwise it is complete set-up fodder. That leaves one slot for Fire Punch / EQ / whatever random move you feel like running there, and that just means you will be raped by every other Pokemon that that move doesn't hit. Pokemon with Substitute, and hell, even Zangoose can set up an SD on this piece of shit Pokemon and own a weakened Dusknoir with Night Slash. Weakening Dusknoir is ridiculously easy since it is susceptible to status and entry hazards, not to mention Pain Split can be easily played around by sending a Pokemon that is low on HP into Dusknoir, or just using Substitute. Awful Pokemon, move it to E Rank kthx.

 

[/B/utterfree]

ok. Time to change this.

Dusknoir is a crappy Pokemon that should be in the Munchlax level. It has no recovery, isn't the best spin-blocker, is pretty weak offensively if you invest in defenses which you need to because otherwise it sucks even more, it can't do anything to any Pokemon outside of burn it, which is a complete joke. To run random stuff like Fire Punch you're just taking up moveslots. Dusknoir can only run 4 moves, and Pain Split / Shadow Sneak / Will-O-Wisp are non-negotiable, as otherwise it is complete set-up fodder. That leaves one slot for Fire Punch / EQ / whatever random move you feel like running there, and that just means you will be raped by every other Pokemon that that move doesn't hit. Pokemon with Substitute, and hell, even Zangoose can set up an SD on this piece of shit Pokemon and own a weakened Dusknoir with Night Slash. Weakening Dusknoir is ridiculously easy since it is susceptible to status and entry hazards, not to mention Pain Split can be easily played around by sending a Pokemon that is low on HP into Dusknoir, or just using Substitute. Awful Pokemon, move it to E Rank kthx.

1. Comparing Dusknoir to Munchlax seems unfair. Noir can run Leftovers, Munchlax can't (it desperately needs Eviolite to do anything). Dusknoir has a base 100 Atk stat, Munchlax has base 85 and doesn't sport the defenses necessary to make use of much, even with Eviolite. Munchlax can't even burn things, much less do other kinds of status.

You also contradict yourself when you say Noir has no recovery. It has Leftovers and you mandate Pain Split. Pain Split was enough to differentiate Noir from Cofag back in BW1. It also has Rest, which other Ghosts have. I'm not saying Noir is S Rank by any means (I did say B Rank tops, and would be amenable to demoting Noir to C Rank myself), but it's not awful enough to be in E Rank.

2. Dusknoir is in B Rank because, like you said, it isn't the best spinblocker (do mind that the other good spinblockers, Spiritomb and Rotom-N, are firmly A-Rank Pokemon; I'd personally argue Rotom-N to go higher to S Rank, even). It's still a spinblocker, which means it still has a good niche keeping it from going to E Rank. As mentioned earlier, there are less Ghosts in the tier than there were back in the AlakaSableye era. Noir has a key niche as a Cryogonal counter shared exclusively with Spiritomb, who is A Rank. As mentioned earlier, as a Cryo counter it only partially competes with Tomb. It's not completely outclassed by all spinblockers, or I would propose C Rank instead.

3. Fire Punch isn't random. It still allows Noir to hit Cryo hard while also hitting Escavalier and other Pokemon hard as well. If Fire Punch does not suit your needs, you can also run ThunderPunch or IcePunch, or something else which suits your fancy. I run a SubPunch set which is effective. It's not spectacular, but it's effective.

4. Dusknoir is in B Rank because stuff can still set up on it, but it can still hit back relatively hard and it can still take hits decently. Did you read the annotations on each rank in its detail at all?

5. Ghost-types in general aren't too particular to status and hazards. It's not like any of them, say, have a Steel-type which makes them immune to poison. Of the three Ghost-types in RU, Rotom-N is the only one to avoid Spikes and Toxic Spikes due to Levitate. Not even Cofagrigus could boast that. Are you going to argue Spiritomb be dropped to D Rank because its movepool and susceptibility to hazards don't make the cut, too?

6. Zangoose could set up on Ghost-types in general, even its supposed "check" Haunter. It's not just Dusknoir. Why do you think Zangoose was almost banned to BL3 when it was Suspected?

7. Tomb and Rotom-N also use Pain Split. That the move is inconsistent is what keeps them from being S Rank, and what keeps Noir from joining them in A Rank. Unless an influx of Ghost-types show up to RU's doorstep looking to replace Noir, it still has an anti-Cyro niche which keeps it firmly in B/C Ranks. E Rank would mean that there are more than enough Ghost-types in use to make RapidSpinners' lives a living hell. So far, I only see three, with possibilities of a fourth Ghost in Golurk, who runs Drain Punch and does other stuff entirely such it couldn't really outclass Dusknoir as a defensive Pokemon (although as a physical Attacker that's different, albeit because of Drain Punch making it more effective in recovery).

8. For a Pokemon to be E Rank, they have to be ineffective at everything they do, and have stats so average/inadequate that they cannot distinguish themselves from others better than them. A base 100 Attack (shared by fellow Pokemon Tangrowth and Klinklang, who I also view as better than Dusknoir mind) along with the currently best base Special Defense (135) and third best base Defense (135) means it's not going to E Rank on my watch. However, second-worst base HP (45) does make it not A Rank potential ever (and this is something I agree with), as does being partially outclassed (not completely, mind) by Spiritomb in other venues not related to Cryo at all (and by Rotom-N at least when it comes to Kabutops). Its base Speed is better than Spiritomb's, but that means it's a slightly less effective Trick Room setter (which Tomb doesn't even do, last I checked).

I'd rather send every NFE other than Scyther to E Rank before I send Dusknoir anywhere near D or E Ranks.

9. The lowest I'm willing to drop Dusknoir down to is C Rank. There are people who argue Ambipom's usefulness in UU such that it is C Rank in that tier, whilst I genuinely believe it is E Rank there. However, just because a Pokemon is outclassed does not mean it is bad in general (that's legit the words the first person who argued against my proposal of sending Ambipom to E Rank said). It still has uses, albeit tenuous ones with weaknesses keeping it from being in A Rank (mono-Ghost isn't doing Noir any favors, and neither is sharing a two-Pokemon niche in being a Cryo counter).

10. I'm also using Dusknoir as a Rain Dance setter on a different team. Because it is so bulky, it can pull this off rather nicely. However, even I know there are a few other arguably better Rain Dance setters in the tier (Volbeat, to name one). Rain Dance isn't going to make Noir A Rank either.

You would have to make every niche Noir has impossible to do if you want Noir to be D Rank (as I can still argue its superiority to Ferroseed and Munchlax all day). Which in of itself is impossible as there are so few Ghost-types in RU that C Rank is the lowest Dusknoir can go without there being some inherent bias against it. And the point of the Ranks is to evade bias. I'm willing to drop it to C Rank to meet this standard if others are willing to agree. Molk and Double01 did when the original list was made.

I deliberately placed it in B Rank instead of C Rank to spark opposition, since in my previous argument there had been none. Looks like my plan worked.

The Only Change I Shall Do For Today,
Since It Was Going To Happen Anyway

*Moved Dusknoir down from B Rank to C Rank.

 

[Slory]

I agree with ShakeItUp Dusknoir is really bad Pokemon to be B Rank. But, I think he shouldnt be E Rank (this should be reserved only to Munchlax), but should be D Rank. Although Dusknoir has a decent 100 Base Attack, his moves are really weak, and mostly his STAB moves. You need to invest a lot of evs on Attack if you can do any damage, and this is really bad, because Disknoir needs evs on Defenses.

Like ShakeItUp said Dusknoir needs Pain Split, Will-o-Wisp and Shadow Sneak, but I think the last move should be Seismic Toss and not any of the other randoms moves that I could use. Seismic Toss leaves it a consistent damage to a lot of stuff that laughs in his face if it is using random moves like Moltres, Rotom-M, Druddigon, Nidoqueen... And anything that isnt ghost that is hit harder by Shadow Sneak (besides Spiritomb).

Other thing is that Dusknoir can not counter Cryogonal as well as Spiritomb does. Dusknoir simply can not trap it. Furthermore, if you want to do damage on Cryogonal you need to put evs on attack an use something like Fire Punch or Drain Punch that are really bad and weak, even against a super-effective Pokemon. Another thing, its that if use SubPunch, you cannot do anything to Cryogonal lol, besides you use a lot of Evs on SDef, and this set is even worse than the Defensive by far.

Like a Weather Support Dusknoir its bad again. Dusknoir its really bad because cannot support so much besides rain and a random burn. There a lot of Bulky Pokemon that can provide better support and Rain Dance / Sunny Day as well, for name few like Uxie, Lanturn, Rotom-M, Volbeat, Regirock, Mesprit...

 

[lars]

Ok, I just started to get back into things so bear with me and take what I say with a grain of salt.

Dusknoir doesn't deserve Rank B, but I think C is good (mostly for theoretical reasons, but still good reasons)

Dusknoir can stop Cryogonal from spinning in most situations

Assuming cryo is coming in to spin (SR) and is running a fast set that still invests a lot in HP, but not in SpA. (a fairly reasonable assumption unless a lot of things have changed)

Dusknoir will take about 35% from Ice Beam with some mixed bulk. Uninvested Shadow Punch does about 55% minimum. This already means that Cryo probably can't switch in again to spin SR.

Admittedly this turns into as much prediction as trying to trap Cryogonal with CB Tomb, but you can probably Pain Split to heal up most of the damage you took (if it's early in the match) or do decent damage to the switch in.

Considering the lack of ghosts in RU, just being able to spin block probably deserves you at least Rank C.

_______________________________

On a different topic

I think Manectric should be considered for Rank A.

It is arguably the best Scarf Scout in RU.

In most cases it is better than Galvantula, and at least on par with a scout Rotom.
Both Rotom and Manectric have excellent neutral coverage in RU, but Manectric has overheat and flamethrower which is just plain good in a tier with so many bugs and grass types.

Also with Overheat and switcheroo, Cryogonal isn't a very reliable switch in.

I know Manetric has sub par defensive typing, and it can't sweep very well, but the sheer utility and reliability (nothing is really a 100% safe switch in, except once you switch your scarf off) of the scarf scout set means (imo) it should be considered for Rank A.

 

[Molk]

Im honestly going to have to agree that dusknoir needs to move down even further to F rank, i havent seen ANYONE use it to any success since extremely early BW1 tbh. 100 attack may seem cool, but as has been mentioned before, it is quite deceptive. In fact, dusknoir's strongest STAB move only has 60 bp, and its second strongest STAB only has 40, greatly reducing its damage output. It has some other coverage moves as well which seem to be cool and would be on any other pokemon, but take into account that as Shakeitup mentioned, Dusknoir only has room to run one, maybe two coverage moves. It needs WoW, Pain Split, and STAB to do its job the best that it can possibly do (read: not well). Also note that the majority of its coverage moves also have below 80 BP, still leaving it vulnerable to the majority of the tier that isnt weak to it(read: anything bulkier than carvanha). Dusknoir is also somewhat outclassed both offensively and defensively. Offensively, Golurk has a much higher attack, a stronger STAB move, iron fist, more speed(lol), and even lol no guard (i would use no guard golurk over dusknoir any day, lol). Spiritomb pretty much outclasses dusknoir defensively, beating cryogonal more easily than him, carrying the majority of the same moves, and trades having no type weaknesses and an extra psychic immunity for a neutrality to bug. Spiritomb also has access to Pursuit and a stronger STAB move, as well as a usable special attack stat.

 

[TROP]

Dusknoir is really fucking awful, and should be moved to at least E(it is that bad). The only reason to use it over Spiritomb that does the spin blocker thing better or Golurk for simply any offensive set, is because randoms think OMG 135 DEFENSES MUST BE THE SECOND COMING OF JESUS. And while 135 defenses are pretty good, a pathetic HP stat of 45 is not helping Dusknoir at all, allowing anything decently offensive to simply 2hko it with minimal hazard support(read: just SR most of time). Also, because its damage output is so terrible, it is set up bait for a lot of dangerous mons such as Fraxure, Liligant, Klinklang if lacking earthquake, and even if it has that, Moltres gets easily a sub against it that is 2hkoed at best by shadow sneak that is more than enough turns for moltres to get the 2hko with Fire Blast or Hurricane. Using seismic toss on anything that has a decent attack is just pathetic and a terrible excuse to justify it being higher on this viability list. It also loses to the mighty metang 1 vs 1, lol.

Random calcs of stuff 2hkoing Dusknoir with just sr that are realy common/good/decently strong. All of this are with both the most used spread by the mighty and insanely good ladder and the current analysis spread:

Hide

252 SpA Timid Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Impish Leftovers Dusknoir : 147-174 (50 - 59.18%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Modest Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Impish Leftovers Dusknoir : 146-173 (49.65 - 58.84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Timid Life Orb Lightningrod Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Impish Leftovers Dusknoir : 134-160 (45.57 - 54.42%) -- 97.66% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Timid Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Impish Leftovers Dusknoir : 161-191 (54.76 - 64.96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 SpA Timid Life Orb Lilligant Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Impish Leftovers Dusknoir : 165-195 (56.12 - 66.32%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. +1 Because Lili sets up on it without even Trying.

252 SpA Timid Life Orb Levitate Cryogonal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Impish Leftovers Dusknoir : 126-149 (42.85 - 50.68%) -- 57.03% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock. Not exactly what I call good/common, but consider this: 152 Atk Impish Leftovers Dusknoir Shadow Sneak vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Timid Life Orb Levitate Cryogonal : 123-145 (41.41 - 48.82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, if it comes to block spin and you ice beam instead, it will die and Cryo survives to spin next turn. Nice spin blocker bro. Defensive cryo will just toxic and outstall it with recover.

And because I can, leaving this:
0 Atk Impish Leftovers Dusknoir Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Timid Life Orb Sceptile : 61-73 (21.7 - 25.97%) -- possible 4HKO after Stealth Rock. Can't even guarantee breakin the sub of something that is really frail if we go with the spread the mighty as fuck Ladder uses, lol.

Enough with the special attackers, let's get started with physical ones:

252 Atk Adamant Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Impish Leftovers Dusknoir : 125-148 (42.51 - 50.34%) -- 43.36% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock Nice spin blocker bro. Also consider that after SR and SD, Tops is beating this most of time unless you get low as fuck damage rolls.

252 Atk Adamant Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Impish Leftovers Dusknoir : 140-165 (47.61 - 56.12%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.

252 Atk Adamant Flame Plate Entei Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Impish Leftovers Dusknoir : 138-163 (46.93 - 55.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Adamant Flame Plate Entei Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Impish Leftovers Dusknoir : 153-181 (52.04 - 61.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


+1 252 Atk Jolly Mold Breaker Fraxure Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Impish Leftovers Dusknoir : 160-189 (54.42 - 64.28%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock .+1 because Fraxure sets up on it thanks to Taunt.

+1 252 Atk Jolly Mold Breaker Fraxure Outrage vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Impish Leftovers Dusknoir : 177-208 (60.2 - 70.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. +1 for the same reasons stated above.

252 Atk Jolly Toxic Orb Toxic Boost Zangoose Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Impish Leftovers Dusknoir : 124-146 (42.17 - 49.65%) -- 32.03% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Jolly Toxic Orb Toxic Boost Zangoose Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Impish Leftovers Dusknoir : 136-162 (46.25 - 55.1%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Adamant Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Impish Leftovers Dusknoir : 232-274 (78.91 - 93.19%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Adamant Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Impish Leftovers Dusknoir : 210-247 (71.42 - 84.01%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. This hardly matters because it can't do shit to aggron and Earthquake can't kill.


252 Atk Adamant Druddigon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Impish Leftovers Dusknoir : 132-156 (44.89 - 53.06%) -- 89.06% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Adamant Druddigon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Impish Leftovers Dusknoir : 118-141 (40.13 - 47.95%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock. Only time the mighty PS ladder spread does something that hardly matters that the other don't already. Dusknoir is shit , so is not like it matters anyway.

 

[/B/utterfree]

Considering the lack of ghosts in RU, just being able to spin block probably deserves you at least Rank C.

Leaving it at that, as otherwise it's just going to be me refuting almost all the same arguments that SIU made, just with different names and people undermining Dusknoir's base 100 Atk with Seismic Toss and ignoring support options I've already discussed with stuff such as Gravity-boosted DynamicPunch, weather support, Trick Room, SubPunch, Pursuit (yes it also has Pursuit, so it can also trap Cryo if desired), so on so forth. A jack-of-all-trades Ghost-type isn't going to be popular, understandably, but it has enough pros and cons to not be instant E-Rank (otherwise I'd have put him there myself after testing him rigorously in this tier and other tiers during the B1W1 era, and B2W2 thus far). That it takes quite a few 2HKOs to nail Dusknoir from various sweepers does mean it's shakier a B Rank Pokemon than I presumed before, thereby keeping him in C Rank more firmly.

At this point I'm considering making a Dusknoir Tier for itself because otherwise there's just too much subjectivity (read: people making arguments I would make in regards to other Pokemon in other tiers, such as Milotic in UU) despite Ghosts being rarer than the steaks I eat in RU (and all the other relevant Ghosts, the three others being Rotom-N, Spiritomb, and Golurk, are in B Rank or higher anyway, so Dusknoir being outclassed by them is a moot point which C Rank pretty much identifies this drawback easily). I do have to thank Molk for the Metang Tier idea, as I might remake that as well so people grasp that some Pokemon in RU have too polarizing a usage focus (although PS! 2 Gud, honestly).

Name one Pokemon who can drive Molk to White Castle after he's done getting high (on the PS! ladders) better than Dusknoir and I'll start the Dusknoir Tier immediately.

If this were Dusclops, who has no offensive presence and all the same cons as Dusknoir made worse, I'd easily put him in E Rank here (no, seriously; Dusclops is worse than Dusknoir, hands down: I tried both in UU, and liked Noir better). Alas, that isn't the case, so C Rank it stays until I decide whether or not to make the Dusknoir Tier.

On a different topic

I think Manectric should be considered for Rank A.

It is arguably the best Scarf Scout in RU.

In most cases it is better than Galvantula, and at least on par with a scout Rotom.
Both Rotom and Manectric have excellent neutral coverage in RU, but Manectric has overheat and flamethrower which is just plain good in a tier with so many bugs and grass types.

Also with Overheat and switcheroo, Cryogonal isn't a very reliable switch in.

I know Manetric has sub par defensive typing, and it can't sweep very well, but the sheer utility and reliability (nothing is really a 100% safe switch in, except once you switch your scarf off) of the scarf scout set means (imo) it should be considered for Rank A.

Electric isn't that bad a defensive typing. Only one weakness to Ground, and resistances to Steel, Electric, and Flying, are still decent.

I can agree with Manetric being upped to A Rank. He's another TrickScarfer who is effective when used right; he's no Rotom-C but he'll get the job done just as proficiently under the right circumstances. His circumstances are a bit more grounded, though (no pun intended). Overheat for coverage is pretty sweet, though.

TL; DR - Proposed/Potential Changes:
SilentVerse has given control of the thread to Molk. Doing anything is now no longer my perogative.

 

[TROP]

Alomomola is terrible and should be D (not E because while it is fucking terrible, it is not metang or munchlax bad level). First, except for Wish, it offers nothing worth using over its fellow bulky water types Slowking, Poliwrath, Qwilfish, and Lanturn, that beat the same things Alomomola does in theory: Fighting Types (Mola in theory should be able to beat Gallade, but I'll explain this later) and Entei. While I admit that wish is an awesome move, it is of little utility when about half of the tier, maybe more, can set up on its face without even trying, thanks to using an attack weaker than THE MIGHTY METANG'S Meteor Mash (don't even bring up scald, that makes it worse), that most pokemon won't even worry about. That wouldn't be a problem if the list didn't include physically attacking mons that Alomomola should be walling and preventing from setting up in the first place; Gallade can easily set up a Swords Dance on its face while Alomomola can only toxic it or hit it with a weak waterfall that does even less than Dusknoir's Shadow Sneak (and we all know how weak that is), allowing Gallade to easily get to +4 and flat out OHKO it or threaten whatever will come in to stop it if Alomomola tries to switch out. Similar to Gallade, Fraxure can easily set up thanks to Taunt and a resist to water type making it take pathetic damage from waterfall (don't even think of bringing up scald, because that adds the mighty Curse sleep talk Munchlax to the list of things that set up on Alomomola). Honorable mentions for pokemon that can set up easily on Alomomola include, but not limited to: Crawdaunt, SD Sceptile, Klinklang, Drapion, Bouffalant, Scolipede, and pretty much everything with a sub that is decently bulky or not weak to water.

Before I forget to write about it, the reason you shouldn't use Scald on Alomomola is because its special attack is even worse than its attack, meaning that now even more things can set up on it. Burn chance is not worth letting even the mighty as fuck shell smash magcargo setting up on it. INB4 troll:0SpAtk Alomomola (Neutral) Scald vs 0HP/0SpDef Weak Armor Magcargo (Neutral): 84% - 101% (204 - 244 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 7% chance to OHKO.

Not only that, but Alomomola is also set up bait for any defensive pokemon that is either faster than it or not weak to water on critical levels. A good example of this is Crustle, something otherwise pretty easy to stop, is not even 2hkoed by Waterfall after Stealth Rock Damage, guaranteeing at least SR and 2 layer of spikes against Alomomola if it really wants to, and that is without a fully defensive spread; 0Atk Alomomola (Neutral) Waterfall vs 252HP/0Def Sturdy Crustle (Neutral): 33% - 38% (114 - 134 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

Sucinct version: The only thing it has over its fellow water types is Wish and beating Gallade in theory, but that doesn't save it from being massive set up bait for everything it should be beating without trying to. Honestly, for Wish I would just use Clefable instead; it has superior support options and doesn't lose to things it should be beating 100% of time. There is a reason why Alomomola is NU despite being bulkier than motherfucking Skarmory, and that reason is it damages your team more than helping it. Also, bar Entei Flare Blitz, Tangrowth walls a majority of the things Alomomola would, but actually scares them, hitting them with decently powerful attacks or threatening them with a sleep.


And just for fun, a hilarious calc list of Alomomola failing to OHKO shit 4x weak to water:

Hide

0Atk Alomomola (Neutral) Waterfall vs 252HP/124Def Eviolite Numel (+Def): 82% - 97% (268 - 316 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
0Atk Alomomola (Neutral) Waterfall vs 160HP/0Def Eviolite Weak Armor Magcargo(Neutral): 82% - 99% (232 - 280 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
0Atk Alomomola (Neutral) Waterfall vs 252HP/0Def Solid Rock Camerupt (Neutral): 81% - 95% (279 - 327 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
0Atk Alomomola (Neutral) Waterfall vs 0HP/0Def Sturdy Golem (Neutral): 73% - 87% (220 - 264 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
0Atk Alomomola (Neutral) Waterfall vs 160HP/0Def Lightningrod Rhyhorn (Neutral): 84% - 99% (288 - 340 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO
0Atk Alomomola (Neutral) Waterfall vs 0HP/0Def Sturdy Graveler (Neutral): 95% - 99% (240 - 250 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

 

[lars]

0Atk Alomomola (Neutral) Waterfall vs 0HP/0Def Sturdy Graveler (Neutral): 95% - 99% (240 - 250 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Not to be that guy... but, even a Specs Sceptile Leaf Storm is going to have a tough time OHKOing the Sturdy Graveler.

That said, I'm inclined to agree with you.

While Alomomola can be annoying, the most it usually does is manage to Toxic something before getting set up on or destroyed.

 

[Bigblue]

I personally think that lanturn deserves S rank for 3 main reasons.

1-Voltswitch: As lanturn is has a pretty mediocre speed it still is one of most effective voltswitchers in the tier. This move is so great on lanturn as you will always get in your sweeper or frail pokemon without harm because unless it is something like escavalier, lanturn most likely is going to take the hit before you volt switch.

2-Electric immunity: With the sheer amount of electric types and electric type moves on pokemon in this meta an immunity is almost god like. Not does it only heal but it also forces you opponent to predict or over predict, sometimes making voltswitching too risky for the opponent (Unless it's Rotom-C). Many pokemon in RU have an electric immunity (Manectric,Rhydon,Golurk,Nidoqueen,Electivire) but lanturn does it the best as it can heal off of it and is generally not afraid of anything using an electric move, unless once again it is Rotom-C.

3-Variety of Moves: ThunderWave, Scald, Heal Bell, Rest, Sleep Talk, Toxic, Discharge, these are all great moves you can run on lanturn. These moves as well as the standard scald/voltswitch can be changed along with ev's to suit your teams needs depending on your goals. Example- You need to paralyze sweepers for something like crawdaunt to sweep or your team is weak to tangrowth so you need toxic it to wear it down. Heal bell is self explainatory, but the point of this section is to say how lanturn is not a one face pokemon which can only run one viable set, it puts pressure on the opponent to learn the set as well as you always have the element of surprise pulling out twave on a sceptile that might want to switch in.

My personal opinion but obviously its not the law.

 

[spuds4ever]

This is looking all fine to me.

A few comments. Lanturn not for S. No recovery and lackluster stats as well as the fact that the only reason people use it is for moltres shouldn't put it higher than slowking IMO.

One change I would make is jynx to A rank. Lovely Kiss and nasty plot just makes it absurdly hard to deal with and 95 base speed and that tasty water immunity means you can still check things like feraligatr or kabutops with it.

 

[Bent1ey]

Alomomola doesn't belong to C rank, frankly I'd give Hariyama better odds. It's too limited in its choices for a pokemon who's supposed to support your team, it doesn't counter a lot of things and it's not all that good on what it does.

 

[Molk]

Thanks for your comments everybody! im going to post some predicted changes now. If you want to vouch for any of the pokemon mentioned, now is your last chance!

Predicted changes:

1) Alomomola DOWN from C rank to D rank

2) Manectric UP from B rank to A rank


Here are the newest proposed changes that havent been discussed yet, feel free to put in your opinion!

1) Jynx UP from B rank to A rank

2) Lanturn UP from A rank to S rank

discuss

 

[/B/utterfree]

1. I can concur with Alomomola belonging in D Rank. I tried using it in tandem with Tangrowth a few times instead of Slowking for experimental purposes (to see if Alomomoongus would be fine in RU as well; did the inverse with Amoongus being fine as a pardner for Slowking), and deeply regretted it;

Wishtect is stupid. It surprises the average player maybe once, but under the right circumstances it gives a savvy player two boosts of a setup move, while Alomomola recovers itself only to die to the setup sweeper. If not for Regenerator and Wishtect, I'd be suggesting Alomomola go straight to E Rank (and actually would propose that anyway; even with Regenerator, Alomomola does nothing). However, since its traits are palpable for NU, but not for RU, it is fine at D Rank to me.

2. Lanturn as A Rank to S Rank? I'm on the fence in regards to this. I personally think Slowking is a better Special Wall (especially thanks to Regenerator and also having offensive options via Trick Room and Nasty Plot). However, Lanturn's Heal Bell has been invaluable countless times. Also, Water/Electric is a really good dual-typing.

I might leave Lanturn going from A Rank to S Rank to other people, honestly.

 

[lars]

Predicted changes:

1) Alomomola DOWN from C rank to D rank ---> Yes

2) Manectric UP from B rank to A rank ---> Yes


Here are the newest proposed changes that havent been discussed yet, feel free to put in your opinion!

1) Jynx UP from B rank to A rank ---> Yes

2) Lanturn UP from A rank to S rank ---> right now, I would say No

Lanturn is pretty good, but I just don't think it's S rank good, I mean it's competition like the powerhouses Sceptile and Nidoqueen (both who handily destroy it) we are comparing it to.

I know it can check Moltres and other Fire types (which is why it deserves A rank), but honestly if you could only pick one or two Pokemon from S rank, would it ever be Lanturn?