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Lower Tiers The RU Viability Ranking Thread

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I actually think Volbeat is fine in Low C-Rank. It is a very viable weather supporter with its Prankster Rain Dance/Sunny Day, and has okay bulk unlike Liepard so it can take some light hits. It has SubEncore+BP to be a little annoying as well, and can pass Tail Glow much more easily, which is a bit more deadly than the Speed boosts. And unlike Ninjask, it can Encore the Pokemon into a move before they Roar+Whirlwind.

As for the hail Pokemon, I think Honko's post could be used as a counterargument against A-Ranking them, however, there's also the consideration that hail is a potentially powerful playstyle. Hail teams are a strong force in the RU metagame, and make an Ice resist almost necessary. Glaceon and Walrein are superb in hail and can be why hail could be potentially suspect worthy. Walrein can also turn the match around in just a single turn. I think Glaceon/Walrein/Rotom-F could be Low A material at best, although the hail dependence could keep them in Top B.
 
I would like to send Absol to top A.

Being a fantastic user of mind-games and late-game sweeping, as well as an interesting movepool, Absol is a fairly diverse and powerful pokemon. Absol is capable of learning superpower and fire blast, which are brilliant coverage attacks on his standard 3-dark-move standard set, taking out Aggron and Escavlier/Durant respectively. This means that even if you are prepared for Absol running superpower, the more common set, a viable fire blast can still take out your counter. While team-building with Absol you should consider have a wall-breaker; a favourite core of mine is Absol and expert belt Rotom-C since Rotom-C can take out the bulkier pokemon to let Absol sweep late-game. He is also capable of running a swords dance set, which thanks to his ability, super luck, also has a higher chance to score crits on pokemon such as alomomomomo big luvdisc (I still don't know how to spell it :confused:) and with an impressive attack stat takes out pokemon on its own anyway.

Oh yeah, and I thought Volbeat was mid C, he fits well there. I'm fine leaving him in low C, but he is definitely not D - no where near it.
 
I think Absol is fine where he is. He can definitely wreck unprepared teams, and he packs a power sucker punch and a nice attack stat. The real problem with Absol is, obviously, his poor bulk. When using the Swords Dance set, he rarely finds a chance to set up due to the amount of Pokemon that can outspeed him and live through a Sucker Punch, and simply OHKO him with a STAB or coverage move. There are also the Substitute abusers that can dodge Sucker Punch, like Sceptile, Moltres, Rotom, etc. There are also Pokemon that can dodge it with status moves like Spiritomb, Rotom-C, Uxie and more. And if you choose to use the 3 Dark + 1 coverage set, then there will more than likely be something you just can't hit. Then it also has trouble with physical walls and mixed walls in the tier such as Qwilfish, Quagsire, Poliwrath, Torterra, Rhydon, Spiritomb, and Uxie can take a Night Slash iirc and cripple it with Thunder Wave. Absol is a fantastic Pokemon, but it definitely requires a good deal of team support to be effective, which is the description of an A-Rank Pokemon.
 
Alright, i can't make any official edits at the moment, but i just wanted to let everyone know that Sandslash is locked in D rank for now as per request!

Anyways, here are some thoughts on the pokemon posted:

Escavalier: To be honest i really wouldn't be against putting Escavalier in low S rank for the time being. I mean yeah, its definitely a really powerful Pokemon: thats why its in S rank in the first place, but it does have a few flaws that ensure its not on the same level as say Entei or Uxie. Although Escavalier's more than bulky enough to live some Hidden Power Fires, the Pokemon that run the move simply to beat Escavalier definitely make its job harder, especially with the low Speed stat (like 72 evs to speed creep slowking or something lol). Also, Escavalier struggles with a lack of any form of recovery, especially when its holding a Choice Band instead of leftovers, making it really vulnerable to getting worn down over time, especially because its grounded. The lack of real coverage outside of its STABs hurts Escav a bit too, but usually its so strong that even Pokemon that resist Megahorn can end up 2HKO or even OHKO'd. All in all, Escavalier definitely deserves a spot in S rank, and i'd refuse to put it any lower in the current metagame, but low S is probably more appropriate than mid S.

Roselia: Thinking about it i think Roselia is fine where she is, in fact, i could see a move down to low B rank being somewhat reasonable if someone were to bring it up. Sure, Roselia's an excellent Spikes setter that can check some important Pokemon such as Sceptile and Lilligant, but she struggles a bit because of her complete lack of physical bulk, even with Eviolite factored in. This lack of physical bulk means Roselia is often forced out by strong Pokemon such as Emboar, Entei, Durant, and Gallade, preventing her from doing her job as effectively. It also means Roselia is very vulnerable to getting Pursuit trapped by things such as Spiritomb, Absol, and Especially Escavalier, who can switch in on her and eliminate her from the match before she can set up too many layers of spikes, while also possibly opening up the Roselia user to a Lilligant or Sceptile sweep. Don't get me wrong, Roselia isn't a bad Pokemon or bad spiker at all, i just think her complete lack of usable physical bulk holds her back from performing her best as a defensive spiker, and she should therefore stay in mid B rank.

Jynx: I've been using jynx both in and outside of hail for the past few days to test her out, and while she actually did way better than i thought she would on paper, i wouldn't be opposed to moving her down to top B rank from low A rank. Jynx is certainly a really powerful and threatening Pokemon between Lovely Kiss, Nasty Plot, her great STABs, and a nice base 115 Special Attack stat to work with, but she does in fact have her flaws: the most notable of which is really struggling against the most common Pokemon in the tier. Unless Jynx manages to get multiple Nasty Plot boosts off, she's going to have trouble with Slowking, and while Lovely Kiss can help out a bit, it can be played around with a bit of prediction and then jynx is in big trouble, especially because Slowking can always just switch out to regen, meaning Jynx needs some kind of support to remove the king from the match imo. Jynx's fraility really gets in the way as well. I mean i know we have some other frail Pokemon in A rank, but jynx is on a whole other level of frail. She's Stealth Rock weak, has only two resistances, very little physical bulk, and only really average special bulk to work with. Also, while she's immune to Water-type moves thanks to dry skin, most of the common water-types have a way to eliminate her or cripple her as she switches in, making even coming in on a scald or aqua jet risky. Other metagame trends such as Escavalier's drop from UU, hazards becoming a bit more common, and the rise of Sleep Talk Pokemon to absorb lovely kiss (most of which already match up well against Jynx) give Jynx a hard time as well. Overall: Jynx is a really good Pokemon with a lot going for her, but i'd be totally fine with putting her in Top B rank given her flaws and the current metagame trends.

Swellow: Definitely going to agree here and say Swellow deserves higher than low B rank atm, Swellow's always been a pretty good late game cleaner and one of my favorite Pokemon to use simply because of how easily it could sweep teams once a few obstacles were removed. That nice Speed stat makes it pretty hard to stop Swellow late in the game, and also means it makes a nice revenge killer when needed (Swellow's actually faster than Scarf Emboar lol). I personally think that top B might be a bit too high for Swellow though, and i think mid B is the best placement for it at the moment. While Swellow can definitely overcome its flaws with a bit of team support, the trouble has with common Rock- and Steel-types as well as its fraility and how quickly it gets worn down is still enough to keep it out of top B rank imo.

Vileplume: I dont really have much experience with vileplume myself, but after reading Silentverse's post about Vileplume's perks i'd be fine with giving it a ranking here. Where exactly do you think the flower should be placed? D rank? C rank? I'd like a bit of discussion on this.
 
Molk said:
Vileplume: I dont really have much experience with vileplume myself, but after reading Silentverse's post about Vileplume's perks i'd be fine with giving it a ranking here. Where exactly do you think the flower should be placed? D rank? C rank? I'd like a bit of discussion on this.
Click to expand...


I think That Vileplume should be low to mid C rank due to its ability to break past the common cores like Slowking+Tangrowth and Alomomola+Amonguss. I think that Vileplume matches up to a C rank definition perfectly. C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the RU metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being top tier threats. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be as effective as higher ranked Pokemon in RU. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.
 
Alright, i can finally edit the OP of the viability thread and i think we're ready to make some updates!

Updates said:
Sandslash locked into D rank

Gardevoir moved down from mid B rank to top C rank

Duosion added to mid C rank

Torterra moved up from low B rank to mid B rank

Jynx moved down from low A rank to top B rank

Escavalier moved down from mid S rank to low S rank

Vileplume added to low C rank (if you want it higher just let me know)

Swellow moved up from low B rank to mid B rank

Walrein up from top B rank to low A rank

Hariyama up from mid C rank to low B rank

Exeggutor up from top C rank to mid B rank


Pokemon in need of more discussion:

Glaceon


Quite a few changes this time around, if you disagree with any of the moves made/proposed feel free to post why!
Click to expand...
 
Vileplume should prolly be high D for the same reasons as golem-95% of the time amoonguss / roselia is better, but it does have a few cool niches. C is for something with a notable niche, which vileplume doesn't rlly have.

Also on glaceon, I think it should stay in B rank. I personally think that glaceon is not broken- very, very powerful but atm leaning towards not broken. Therefore, it should stay in High B with frotom due to the support issue. I'm p sure the only reason walrein is in A is because it is potentially broken under hail, which glaceon isn't imo.
 
I actually think that if Glaceon should move anywhere, its down to mid b. I don't really think that, despite that massive special attack, its as threatening as Rotom-F. Glaceon pretty much only has its STAB due to its barren movepool, and as a result, unless it can predict a switch-in, a bulky Ice resist can give it an extremely difficult time. Rotom-F offers a lot more flexibility with its Electric STAB (including Volt Switch) which gives it better coverage and the ability to easily deal with Slowking (Shadow Ball is a kind of bad move to be locked into if you are using it to hit Slowking in Glaceon's case - Im assuming Choiced of course because why else would you use Shadow Ball) the ability to outstpeed Accelgor and Aerodactyl with its Scarf set (as well as base 80s and such without it) and the ability to really wear down stuff with Pain Split. Glaceon only really only has its raw power as its claim to fame (and I guess Ice Body), and as a result, I think Rotom-F is more usable than Glaceon, and Glaceon should be below it in rank.

Also, if power is such a large advantage, consider Glaceon's power is comparable to likes of Gallade, Magmortar, Escavalier, and Moltres, all of whom are either faster or are bulkier with an arguably better typing, and all of them have wider movepools and/or perform more roles without needing Snover support. I mention this because Glaceon is NOT the epitome of power - its a hard hitter but it doesn't hit much harder than Pokemon that can be used without Hail, and while Snover isn't completely dead weight, its still a required Pokemon and its not very good.
 
After playtesting with Glaceon some more over the past few days, I'm going to stand by my notion to move it to Low A. However, the reasons I feel Glaceon should move to Low A are different than for why Walrein is there now. While Walrein is potentially broken under Hail, Glaceon has very good versatility in its role on a Hail team. While Walrein is typically seen on more defensive Hail teams and frotom is generally on more offensive Hail teams, Glaceon can be used effectively on both. I'll break down Glaceon's sets a bit more in an attempt to prove this statement.

Choice Specs: The set Glaceon is most commonly seen running and the most dangerous right off the bat. Choice Specs Glaceon is typically played as a wallbreaker as few walls can hope to survive Glaceon's onslaught. It doesn't do as well against offensive teams and it struggles to break stall since Poliwrath, Escavalier, and Magneton are typically seen on such teams and can keep Specs Glaceon in check throughout an entire match, but Choice Specs Glaceon can break down many common walls and poses a major problem for slower offensive teams. Use this if your Hail team needs a wallbreaker.

Choice Scarf: While Glaceon is by no means fast, Choice Scarf Glaceon hits the same speed tier as Choice Scarf Emboar does. This Glaceon gives more offensive teams many more problems since it outspeeds everything up to, and including, Sceptile while still having enough raw power to break through bulkier offensive Pokemon without an Ice resistance. However, Choice Scarf Glaceon can't overcome walls nearly as easily as the Specs set and it will faulter even more against stall teams due to the drop in power. Use this if your Hail team needs raw power out of its Choice Scarf user.

SubProtect: While many may think that this Glaceon plays second fiddle to Walrein, you shouldn't be so quick to judge. This Glaceon performs exceptionally well against Stall teams while actually having more firepower than the Choice Scarf set, meaning it doesn't faulter against walls as much. The best part about this set is that Glaceon can still go on the offensive if it's required. Hail team have an issue with Magneton or Aggron? Send in Glaceon, use a Sub as they switch in, and kill them off with HP Ground. This Glaceon's Blizzard is only surpassed in power by its Choice Specs counterpart. Obviously, it faulters against offensive teams more due to the lack in Speed investment, but that shouldn't stop Glaceon from leaving its mark on the match. Again, this is not a "poor man's Walrein". This Glaceon is basically a more offensive version of Walrein with the same stalling principles in mind. Use this if your Hail Stall team needs an offensive "out" in a pinch.
 
After thinking about it for a little bit, i'd like to nominate Drifblim to move up from top C rank to low B rank. This might seem like an odd proposal at first, but hear me out! Drifblim has quite a few positive traits that make it a particularly viable and deadly threat on offensive teams that benefit from its support. First off, when looking at Drifblim, you notice it has a pretty valuable ability in Unburden that lets it pull off various sets decently well, but one thing probably stands out to you: Flying Gem Acrobatics. Drifblim's Acrobatics set is particularly deadly in RU because of the ability to use a powerful, 110 BP STAB and boost speed at the same time thanks to Unburden, preserve hazards in a pinch, sweep, wear down other pokemon's checks and counters, and force a double down with a really fast Destiny Bond all in one set. Drifblim works incredibly effectively on spikestacking offense teams, especially teams with sweepers that struggle with common Rock- and Steel-types like Swellow and Klinklang. The threat of Drifblim's Acrobatics lures them in, and from there Drifblim can wear them down with a combination of hazards, acrobatics, and repeated burn damage, or simply use Destiny Bond to sacrifice itself while taking down the threat with it, clearing up a teammate to sweep totally unimpeded (if Drifblim didn't end up sweeping itself of course, Drifblim's more than capable of cleaning up teams on its own when needed). This strategy is usually very effective, and i think that Drifblim's ability to support offensive teams so potently while threatening a sweep itself is enough to promote it up to low B rank. But what do you guys think?

(sorry if my post doesn't make any sense ;-;)
 
I don't think anyone has really used Drifblim in RU, I'm fine with him moving up.

Four proposals though: Escavalier Low S ---> Top A, Smeargle Top A ---> Low S, Magneton Top B ---> Low/mid A and Rhydon Low A ---> Top/mid B
Having a fair amount of experience with all 3 of the proposed pokemon, I find their placements here kinda odd.
Escavalier
Escavalier's placement in S was odd to me, as he is quite easily stopped in RU. With Durant being as popular as ever, Escavalier's main counter, Magneton, is rising up to be more popular, this makes many teams have a counter to Escavalier without even having him in mind. Now obviously Escavalier's power is ridiculous, but with base 20 he is out-sped by literally everything (without investing into speed or something, you could out-speed Slowking if you do I suppose) outside of trick room - which is what he is, a trick room sweeper. Being by far the best abuser of trick room in the tier, although come people could argue Slowking is, he is superb at what he does, however trick room is, in my opinion at least, the hardest play-style to build by far. If you form a core of Slowking and Escavalier you're doing well, but then again it is using trick room, it is the one of the only things Escavalier can do. The other strategy he uses is quite simply bulky offense. With very good base 105 defenses, he can withstand a fair amount of attacks. Without any kind of recovery, however, he is easily weakened and in many cases 1/2HKO'd by a powerful and faster opponent. Due to these down-falls, I believe Escavalier is too much of a liability for your team in too many matches to be S rank off of a trick room team, on a trick room team? That's a pure niche for him. "Reserved for the top threats in the RU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well with little to no extra support. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits."

The bolded parts are precisely what Escavalier is now, and while it does say this pokemon can perform a role extremely well, it also says it needs to have little to no support, which Escavalier does not have. Escavalier is by no means a bad pokemon, otherwise I wouldn't be proposing top A, he just isn't worthy of S.
Smeragle? That's a completely different thing (I forgot the saying :/)

Smeargle

Smeragle is pretty much the most diverse pokemon of the tier. While most people stick to the standard hazard setting and baton passing sets, I like to experiment with Smeargle, and I have been very much surprised with what I have found. His standard sets are actually very good, being the only pokemon to get SR, spikes and toxic spikes without being set-up fodder thanks to learning whirlwind, and his baton pass sets are great because he can boost any move you want if your team lacks the move being present on it. Things that I have found great with Smeargle, however, is a tailwind utility set, a memento set (I know that you can use Uxie for that, but Smeargle is just as good really) and a couple other fairly niche sets, one of my favourites being a para-phazing destiny bond set, which spreads paralysis around your opponent's team and as soon as you're about to be killed you get a free kill on your opponent. It was really unexpected for my opponents and they simply failed to it, thanks to the paralysis being spread around he did get a KO almost every match - you gotta admit, for something that weak offensively, that's pretty good! The simple reason why I think he should be S, is his unexpected viability.


Magneton
Magneton, how versatile you are, which our analysis shows perfectly with a total of 4 sets with a decently sized 'other options' section as well. The reason why Magneton is viable in so many different ways is Magnezone. Let's be honest, Magneton didn't need an evolution, he was set with an incredible 120 base special attack, that for a tier like RU is even more incredible, but also got eviolite to make his bulk superb as well. This means that even on defensive sets he's going to hit your team hard, and on the offensive sets, well you better get ready to have your ass kicked. My personal favourite of Magneton's sets is a mix between the scarf magneton set and the steel killer. It has a massive amount of power, is fast enough to out-speed non-scarf Cinccino with a timid nature and promptly OHKO it, and like the other primary electric types of the tier (no electivire you don't count anyway) gets volt switch for more scouting opportunities. This sounds great and all, but why is Magneton not S rank worthy then? Well, he is frail without running an offensive set, and too slow when he is. This doesn't stop him being A rank worthy at all, and honestly I was just checking where Magneton was to see if he was in mid A or not, since I believe he belongs there so much. Can you really tell me that "Reserved for Pokemon who are slightly above average in the RU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential"
Fits magneton better than:
"Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the RU metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively, but still perform less consistently than the average S rank Pokemon. A rank Pokemon have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their positive traits."

Thought not.
Rhydon

Rhydon does not perform as well as he logically could. He has good power, great physical defense and HP, but his speed leaves him susceptible to so many special attacks it simply doesn't work. I find him a massive under-performer on my teams, so he always gets replaced eventually. For me, he is either a fully defensive stealth rock setter who does little to nothing later in the game, or an offensive pokemon who dies too quickly. I have built whole teams around him yet still he fails. I can see why he is good, and I am sure that some people manage to use him, but as far as I have managed with him, naddah.
 
I disagree with Escavalier moving down. It's a real top threat and is something that should go no lower than S-Rank. Its typing is amazing defensively, giving it a ton of resistances as it likes, and it has a ridiculous Attack stat. With a powerful Megahorn, it can really dent some Pokemon, and not many things can come in safely. It's a real powerhouse, and it can fit itself on teams as a wallbreaker to just smash down the walls, and it's also one of few things to be able to check Druddigon in the tier (big time advantage). It's definitely a little more flawed, than say, Sceptile or Entei, but it's still a high level threat for S, just keep it in the lower rungs of S.

Hmm Smeargle. It's the best hazard setter in the tier, and I can definitely see where you're coming from about it being Low S. However, let's keep in mind that sleep is commonly prepared for, in the form of Sleep Talk Emboar, Entei, Escavalier and even Munchlax, Something to keep in mind. Smeargle also has low stats. Nonetheless, Smeargle is definitely amazing at what he does, and while I'm not totally sure if he's worthy of S-Rank, I wouldn't be opposed to moving him up.

Not totally sure on Magneton, though I can say he's a really good Pokemon in this meta, trapping Escavalier is awesome, and Steels in general such as Escav, Steelix, and Ferroseed are gonna die to Specs magneton's attacks. VoltTurn cores can be formed with Swellow, Mesprit, and Cinccino, which can be used to benefit from Magneton's utility. Magneton+Druddigon is also pretty legit, since Magneton murders almost all the Steels, leaving the path for Druddigon to destroy. I'll leave this to others to decide.

Rhydon should definitely stay in Low A-Rank. He has flaws such as the crippling Water and Grass weaknesses and the poor Speed, but when he gets in, he can cause a lot of damage. He has a lot of bulk with Eviolite, and is so bulky he can even survive Crawdaunt's Waterfall! Now I know you shouldn't be checking Crawdaunt anyways, but this means that if you don't have a 4x super effective move to hit Rhydon and you're a physical attacker, Rhydon's gonna check you. Rhydon can thus find easy times setting up SR, and his typing is amazing offensively; EdgeQuake coverage is certainly nothing to laugh at. CB Rhydon is an amazing wallbreaker with EdgeQuake+Megahorn and Double-Edge, with the incredible power and coverage meaning it has no true counters. RP Rhydon is also really awesome, and if you can grab the turn, you're golden. it has the EdgeQuake coverage as well as surprse factor. Keep it in Low A.

I agree with moving Drifblim up, Molk explained it all/

Proposiing Primeape to move up to Top C or even Low B maybe. Primeape has some competition from other Fighting-types but it definitely has a niche for itself. Primeape has a great 95 Speed as well as U-turn, which make it a really good scout. Primeape can handily scout the team, attracting common Fighting-type switch-ins such as Spiritomb and Uxie, and U-turning right out of them. It can then resort to a teammate to make some good work. Primeape also has Fighting STAB to run, and has a decently powerful Close Combat to revenge kill stuff such as Cinccino and Sceptile. It works especially well with entry hazards, as a way to wear down counters, and can do pretty well in general. Punishment is also pretty nifty to deal heavy damage to Pokemon such as SD Gallade and CM Mesprit, which helps. I think Primeape's a pretty cool Pokemon in this meta, move it up to Top C, kthanx.
 
Escavalier's strength lies in its ability to come into battle repeatedly and threaten almost the entire tier with its ridiculously powerful stabs, as we all know. It can severely dent many resists in the tier and then switch out safely, just to wait for the next opportunity switch in and shit on something. I do, however, understand that it has a few flaws that seem to put it in a borderline position between Low S and High A.

The worst of these issues is Magneton. Escavalier can be extremely difficult to use if the opponent has a Magneton, seeing as the opponent will most likely preserve that Magneton just to come in and OHKO Escavalier at some point during a match. Even though Magneton is 2HKO'd by a banded Megahorn, it doesn't prevent the opportunity to switch in unless Trick Room is active. Emboar, Moltres, Qwilfish and Steelix are also hard counters to (I believe) any Escavalier set. They can easily come in and threaten your team with equally ridiculous stabs or set up hazards respectively.

HOWEVER. Excluding Magneton, the other threats I have mentioned are sometimes incredibly easy to play around. For example, Qwilfish switch-ins are sometimes obvious enough that I can predict the switch and bring in a special attacker to preserve offensive momentum. Also, while the banded set is always dangerous, a (special) defensive set with RestTalk can be equally tough to deal with. Without any attack investment, Escavalier can still hit like a truck and doesn't need to worry about getting burned or whittled down by hazards or switch-in hits.

Considering Magneton's relatively low usage, I believe Escavalier belongs in Low S. Also, with the presence of so many Fire type threats, I find HP Fires and other fire coverage moves to be uncommon in the metagame. An increase in Magneton's usage and the use of fire type coverage moves could easily ruin Escavalier's fun, but as of now that doesn't seem to be the case.
 
Hm, lots of stuff to cover, so here goes:

Drifblim: I got nothing on this one. I haven't had the good fortune of seeing anyone use it and I've never used it myself, so I can't say one way or the other.

Escavalier: I think Escavalier should stay in Low S. Yes, it has a terrible Speed stat. Yes it's pathetically weak to Fire-types. Yes, it has no coverage on Steels. However, with all of that said, there is one thing that nobody else has touched on yet; Escavalier's ability to pretty much check/counter any Blizzard user without HP Fire. Yeah, Overcoat eliminates Hail damage and Escavalier is immune to Toxic (Spikes) Add to the fact that it can run a Specially Defensive set with RestTalk and it becomes a wall that is nigh impossible for a Hail team to break outside of the odd Magneton in Hail. All of its other good qualities were already covered.

Smeargle: I can certainly see where you're going with this. Smeargle is one of, if not the best, suicide leads in RU. SR, Spikes, and Spore makes it pretty difficult to avoid letting it get at least SR+ a layer of Spikes up every match. That said, Smeargle is limited to Offensive teams as almost every other team archtype either prefers sturdier entry hazard users (Balance, Bulky Offense, Stall) or just have a better lead to utilize to accomplish their goals (Hail and manual weather teams) I wouldn't be opposed to it moving up, but I think it should stay in Top A.

Magneton: Hm, Magneton has good versatility. It has 4 sets onsite and each generally serve a different secondary purpose while all are generally good at killing off Steels. The Specs set is a good wallbreaker. The Steel Killer set has good pivoting abilities with its blend of bulk and power. The Scarf set can revenge stuff like Moltres and Durant. The Specially Defensive set is very good against Hail and is a solid special wall in general. I think Mid A is a little too high atm, but due to its versatility and ability to work well on a variety of teams, Low A would definitely work well.

Rhydon: For the same reasons I think Magneton should move up to Low A, I feel Rhydon should stay in Low A. It can tank hits, wallbreak, or outright try to sweep depending on the set. It does have some pretty brutal weaknesses to Water and Grass, but guess what? Two of Rhydon's best teammates are Roselia and Amoonguss, and guess what they do? Check or outright counter most Water- and Grass-types while either providing (Toxic) Spikes support (Roselia) or paralysis support (Amoonguss) I'd say that covers quite a few of Rhydon's issues in just one teamslot if you ask me and that means it doesn't need as much support as you may think to function properly. I've used it to pretty good effect on more than one team (one had Roselia and one had Amoonguss)

Primeape: This is another I don't have much experience with. U-turn is a pretty solid niche for a Fighting-type, but I'd have to playtest with it to know for sure.
 
o_k, i'm going to make a few small updates to the ranks and leave the rest of the proposed changes up for discussion, as i'm not really sure what to do with some of the proposed mons tbh :/.

Updates said:
Moved Vileplume down from low C rank---->Top D rank

Moved Drifblim up from top C rank ----> low B rank

Moved Primeape up from mid C rank -----> top C rank (no discussion on this but i know primeape is prolly deserving from personal experience, SR resist+fast u-turn+a nice Fighting STAB to utilize is pretty good, especially when paired up with Pursuit and/or other Fighting-types, as many common checks to things like Hitmonlee are vulnerable to repeated U-turns.

Pokemon in need of more discussion

Glaceon
Smeargle
Magneton
Rhydon
Click to expand...

If you strongly disagree with any of the changes i made here, just post in the thread explaining why and if it gets enough support i'll reverse the change and/or move it to where you guys want =).

I'd also like to nominate Crustle down to either mid B rank or low B rank from top B rank.

To be honest i always thought Crustle being so high was a bit weird, but i kept forgetting to bring it up here for like a month lol. Anyways, Crustle isn't really a bad Pokemon by any means, its a good suicide lead and an alright late game sweeper with Shell Smash, but i think it has too much competition and/or flaws to stay in top B rank at the moment. Although Crustle has some nice physical bulk to work with, it really can't utilitize it that well because of its Stealth Rock weakness, lack of any real resistances, and weakness to common attacking moves such as Scald, Stone Edge, Gear Grind, and Iron Head, which cuts into its defensive potential severely. As a suicide hazard setter, Crustle recieves quite a bit of competition from Smeargle, who has a higher Speed stat, spore, and pretty much every utility move in the game over Crustle, and Omastar, who has actual resistances to utilize, better coverage, scald, and a lack of a Stealth Rock weakness over Crustle. Of course Crustle has some advantages of its own such as the ability to use Sturdy+Custap berry, but the vast majority of the time i think i'd use either Smeargle or Omastar as a suicide hazard setter over Crustle. As a Shell Smash sweeper, Crustle still recieves a lot of competition from Omastar, who's faster, stronger, and gets a few more set up opportunities. So overall, while Crustle does have its advantages, i don't think its suited for top B rank, and would fit better in mid or low B rank in the current metagame.
 
Glaceon
Nothing much to add but Low-A is where I stand from the games I've played with it, and mostly the points EonX brought out.
Smeargle
Not sure how I stand on this one, considering it is almost guranteed hazards and has access to the best status move in the game (Spore), but has low stats and can be predictable. Sleep Talkers are pretty common, although Smeargle is still almost guranteed hazards... I'm rambling here, sorry, but I'm not quite sure although I'm not completely opposed to either moving it up or keeping it where it is.
Magneton
As previously mentioned, Magneton is pretty versatile, and can run a variety of items from Choice to Eviolite, all emphasizing on its pretty good stats, and trapping steels like Escavalier and friends is very useful (and cool.) Volt Switch is also really awesome for keeping up momentum and all that jazz. I'm thinking something like Mid-A or Low-A.
Rhydon
Great, bulky stealth rocker that can play a few roles previously mentioned by EonX, but especially Eviolite is so bulky. Nothing really to add that others haven't commented on, except Low-A is fine.
Crustle
I agree with everything you said Molk, especially since a lot of other pokemon overshadow it. So yea I'm thinking Mid-B.
 
Crustle

I've been using both of Crustle's main sets recently, and I wouldn't be opposed to it moving to Mid-B, but I honestly think it should stay where it is. It has a niche with its ability to use Sturdy + Custap Berry with Stealth Rocks and Spikes to be almost guaranteed rocks and 1 layer of spikes. Access to Rock Blast allows it to beat Lead Sash Aerodactyl if it hits 3 times, as well as only allow Accelgor to get 1 layer of spikes. It still receives competition from Smeargle and Omastar, and Smeargle can stop him from getting hazards up with Spore, but his niche can be a reason to use him. Now onto his more effective Shell Smash set. The main reason to use this set is its coverage. Omastar has better coverage, but Crustle is no slacker coverage wise, and he hits from the physical side. This means that he isn't outclassed by Omastar on every team, as some teams need a physical sweeper. It also has access to Rock Blast to beat Sturdy mons and Pokemon with a sash. It also allows him to lead smash against Snover, when using White Herb as your item. It also can beat many top threats after a smash thanks to his coverage, getting SE hits on Sceptile, Entei, Uxie, Slowking, Steelix, Aggron, Moltres, Mesprit, and it can just bust through things that it gets neutral damage on like Gallade and a weakened Escavalier, which is much easier to make happen. I think its fine in Top-B, but I'd be fine if it was moved down to Mid-B.
 
I've just seen marowak in mid C, in my opinion he should be top D at the most, I would put him in mid.
He is a worse version of Escavalier. He is less powerful, less bulky for the most part and much fasted. He is too fast to abuse trick room well but he is to slow to do anything else, and his pure ground typing, while very good and gives him the EdgeQuake coverage, gives me little reason to use it over Rhydon, Torterra or Golurk.
 
I know Zweilous was deemed too unimportant to even be on the viability list around June, but I've played with it (about 40 battles) and it's more like Mid or High C-Rank because even though Druddigon is constantly competing with it for a teamslot, it fails to actually be outclassed by it imo.

The set I played the most with it at the time was the Eviolite tank set, and its bulk is significantly greater than its competition. Assuming you can keep Stealth Rock off the field—relatively easy in this tier since the spinners are actually decent—it can even wall CB Entei (Stone Edge has just a 2% chance to 2HKO), which is something even defensive varieties of the crimson dragon can only hope to accomplish. Of course Dark / Dragon is a much worse defensive typing than pure Dragon, making it impossible to check many of these threats, but it doesn't come without helpful resistances such as those to Dark, Ghost, and a complete immunity to Psychic, all of which are at least somewhat common. It also provides a nice dual STAB to smack the likes of Uxie and Slowking with.

After a brief testing of the Choice Scarfer, while it's still pretty slow it is great for surprise factor and can outspeed up to positive base 115s while still packing a punch, what with that essentially 152 base Attack. By contrast, Scarf Druddigon can't even outspeed Timid Sigilyph and is much weaker.

One of Zweilous's bigger flaws which keep it from being higher, besides the poor Speed and typing, is without a doubt the accuracy issues. Seeing even perfect-accuracy moves like Outrage miss is, well, outraging. Fire Fang's accuracy is even worse and sits at a shaky 75%. However, I wouldn't say it makes it ineffective, seeing as Hustle Outrage has about the same accuracy as the Hydro Pumps, Fire Blasts and Stone Edges that make the STABs of so many offensive Pokémon. Also, Outrage has a strange quirk in that if it misses, the rampage will stop, which is annoying but can be useful sometimes when you made a misplay.

tl;dr: Even though previous posters have called Zweilous D-Rank at best, I think it's a good example of C-Rank in that it will want lots of support (1. cleric support, and 2. Pokémon that can cover its weaknesses. Admittedly I did not have the first when I used it, so I probably wasn't using it to its full potential :(), and faces competition from more common mons but has its own niche.
 
Crustle: My thoughts on it have pretty much been covered already. I'd go with Mid-B due in large part to the fact that it has major competition in its main roles (suicide hazards user and Shell Smash sweeper) and it struggles (to an extent) to stand out. It certainly has its merits, but I really only find myself wanting to use it in either of these roles if I need a physical hitter (Smeargle has no offense and Omastar is a special attacker)

Marowak: Really don't have experience with this as I don't use TR. I'll leave this for others to decide.

Zweilous: To be perfectly honest, I have never seen a single Zweilous on the ladder nor have I ever used one myself. The only thing I will comment on is Druddigon dealing with Entei. Trust me when I say that Druddigon can be EVed physically defensively if you really want/need it to deal with Entei better. I've actually done this myself before and it's pretty effective.
 
Alright, going to make some small changes because why not, i'm not really sure where to place most of the other proposed mons (unsure on one of the mons i actually moved too lol ;-;), so compared to the last updates this is sorta minor.

Updates said:
Crustle down from top B rank ---> mid B rank
Glaceon up from top B rank ---> low A rank

Pokemon in need of more discussion:

Magneton
Zweilous
Marowak
Click to expand...

As i usually do i might bring up another proposal/comment on some other proposals a bit later in an edit :).

EDIT: talked on irc and decided to move glaceon back down to B rank
 
Honestly, I can't accept Rhydon being kept in Low-A, let alone dropped to B. It has so much going for it to be Mid-A.

Rhydon is fucking fantastic at setting rocks and its offensive prowess is ridiculous with all the coverage it needs and ridiculously hard-hitting STABs. It counters any Entei lacking HP grass and takes neutral physical hits like a champion while threatening them out with its STABs and crazy base 130 attack. Dcae has already provided a fair amount of calcs that should show you how impressive Rhydon is. It also checks things like Manectric which can be a pain in the side with it constantly Volt Switching.

Also, its manly af.
 
I'm gonna back up the two arguments above, and support rhydons move to mid A.

It has amazing bulk physically, shown by dcae's calcs above, and isn't as bad as might be expected specially. It easily counters many of the tiers top threats, living their hits and usually killing in return with its incredibly impressive attack stat. It also gets stab EdgeQuake, which is always awesome, and the brilliant Megahorn to take out lots of threats trying to invade its turf. And as wiitle stated before me, it is one of the manliest Pokemon out there.

Also 69th post huehuehuehuehue
 
EonX- said:
Zweilous: To be perfectly honest, I have never seen a single Zweilous on the ladder nor have I ever used one myself. The only thing I will comment on is Druddigon dealing with Entei. Trust me when I say that Druddigon can be EVed physically defensively if you really want/need it to deal with Entei better. I've actually done this myself before and it's pretty effective.
Click to expand...

While there is a Druddigon spread that can check Entei, remember it will lose most of its attacking power doing so, while Zweilous gets to keep its beastly offenses. Also, Stone Edge is still a 2HKO even if you run that spread.

Of the other suspects, the only other one I can talk about knowledgeably is Marowak, and I've only used it in NU. However, I disagree with whoever said that Marowak is a worse Escavalier, since it can "outspeed" and OHKO the Fire-types that threaten Esca, has arguably better coverage and Bonemerang to hit Focus Sash and Sturdy users. Esca also needs to be banded to be stronger than Marowak; Choice items demand switching, which TR dislikes.
 
Kay, a couple of proposals I'm here to make.

Rotom-F needs to move up to Low A. It has excellent dual STAB combo that almost nothing in the tier can wall aside from Magneton and Lanturn, and has some real power behind its STABs. Its STAB Thunderbolt is amazing to handle Slowking, one of the greatest threats to hail, as it tries to switch into Rotom-F. (also Slowking is the king of RU which makes this an even better deal). This also means it can provide a strong neutral STAB to handle any Blizzard resists. SubSplit Rotom-F is also really cool, so it can Split to heal itself while sufficiently weakening checks such as Escavalier. It can also maintain a strong offensive presence with LO Blizzards and T-bolts. Rotom-F can also run Choice sets, and has the edge over Glaceon with its Thunderbolt, as well as Volt Switch to switch out of anything trying to come in on it, while gaining momentum. It also has a higher Speed stat so it can outpace Emboar while tying with Rotom-C (ie the kings of revenge killing). It's really good on hail and definitely deserves to be in the same boat as Glaceon and Walrein.

Primeape should really go up even further to Low B. As shown by Mienshao up in the higher tiers, having U-turn on a Fighting-type is fucking fantastic. Primeape can make for a really good revenge killer, and U-turn gives it a great edge, as while Choice Scarf (or Choice items in general) generally have the risk of being forced out, Primeape can U-turn right out of a Spiritomb or Uxie switch-in, and they can suddenly find themselves facing an Absol or Entei, of which they will struggle with. It has a nice Close Combat to revenge kill and hit decently hard, revenge killing threats such as Cinccino, Aerodactyl, Swellow, Sceptile, etc. Especially outspeeding Swellow is another cool advantage over Emboar, and it can do pretty well with its high Speed and U-turn. Primeape also has Vital Spirit to absorb sleep from Lilligant and Smeargle, and can swiftly revenge kill with ease. It's a really good fast scout and should be Low B imo.

Alomomola should go up to Mid A imo. It's easily one of the best physical walls and team supporters RU has to offer imo, and it's a really good Pokemon in general. It has a massive HP stat and a respectable Defense stat, so it can take many physical attacks for days. It can also pass massive Wishes thanks to this, and can grant HP to its teammates to make your team much more annoying to face, let alone Alomomola itself. It's so bulky that even Absol with SD boosts can't OHKO it, and Regenerator and Wish make it really difficult to take down. Regenerator is really cool too to let Alomomola pass its Wishes while still staying healthy. It can also use Toxic to wear down its opponents, and Protect works super well in tandem with both Wish and Toxic, gaining Wish and more Leftovers recovery while extra poison damage goes onto the opponent. Its miserable special defense is definitely a letdown, as is its poor offensive capabilities, but its flaws are easy to patch up with the proper teammates, and it walls a lot of stuff while providing great support (especially with Drudd/Escav, since they have no recovery and the Wishes allow them to repeatedly spam their moves multiple times). Definitely should move it up imo.

After some thought, I'd like to see Magneton move up to Low A as well. It's a pretty versatile Pokemon and a lot of the time, it can be just what you're looking for. It makes a great Steel killer, to trap and come in on things like Escavalier, Steelix, and Ferroseed and make work of them, which is excellent benefit for Pokemon such as Druddigon, Mesprit, and Cinccino (plus the DragMag in MagneDrudd is awesome). It can also be an excellent revenge killer with Scarf, and also be the ultimate Durant answer, so if your team is mortally terrified of Durant, look into Scarf Magneton for sure. Specs Magneton can also do the trapping job with ease, while being an excellent wallbreaker in general. Specially Defensive Magneton is also great because of Eviolite and its useful typing, and it also has a very strong offensive presence with its high SpA and Analytic, so it's certainly no sitting duck. It can check hail teams, some of the most prominent teams in the metagame, and is overall pretty useful. I agree with moving it up.

I'd be totally cool with moving Rhydon up to Mid A as well. He's super bulky, and can check a lot of physical attackers while setting up SR very reliably for your team. Its high Attack and EdgeQuake also allow it to deal heavy damage. Everything else was explained pretty well imo.
 
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