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Lower Tiers The RU Viability Ranking Thread

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I agree with Dragonair and Musharna like I said before, but I disagree with moving Sigilyph up. While it's a powerful special attacker, its power is kinda lacking without CM boosts, and Sigilyph also has some exploitable weaknesses to things like Galvantula and Manectric, and being weak to Electric is actually kind of unforunate imo. Magic Guard is a neat ability but Sigilyph is still prone to things like Thunder Wave. I've never been particularly frightened of Sigilyph to the point where I needed an answer to my team; Sigilyph is an excellent Pokemon and is Top A without a doubt; but it's not dominant like the S-Rank threats.

I'm going to suggest Mandibuzz for Top C. It's a pretty underrated defensive Pokemon, and it has quite a bit going for it. It has a very good set of resistances, and outright phenomenal bulk, which means it walls many threats; this includes Sceptile, Mesprit, Sigilyph, Lilligant, Absol, Roselia, etc. Along with this, Mandibuzz also has reliable recovery in Roost, and as either a physical or special wall, Mandibuzz is a bitch to take down, and really does well defensively. Taunt and Whirlwind are also awesome, and Mandibuzz can be a great weapon against stall teams while it racks up hazards damage pretty well. Foul Play is also neat to catch incoming physical attackers that might want to take advantage of it. It has a great niche; and still has the notable flaw that it's always had: the Stealth Rock weakness, so Mandibuzz still needs support to do well. Despite this, I feel Mandibuzz is good enough to make it into Top C, especially now that hail, which prevented Mandibuzz from doing well, is now gone.
 
Dcae said:
My first nomination for a higher rank is Sandslash. Now before this turns into a circlejerk of Sandslash sucks dick etc etc, I'd like to point out that Sandslash is always so mistreated is a bad rep and the fact that Kabutops and Cryogonal are both incredibly good spinners. This overshadows Sandslash a lot. However, despite the aforementioned spinners, Sandslash has a few niches. The most important niche is its Rock resist. Thanks to its physical bulk and Rock resist, it puts a stop to many a physical Rock type attacker, such as Aerodactyl and Aggron. Most people fail to recognize it, but sometimes the combination of traits Sandslash has make it the only options for certain teams, such as a stall I played around with recently. With Wish support, it can even function as a decent physical wall. Obviously, I am not advocating for this Pokemon to sail up into B rank. I want this mon to be respected a bit more as the third best spinner in RU, and I think all this warrants it to be moved out of its age long shadow of bad rep and onto a new age where it doesnt get circlejerked to D rank. Mid C for this guy.
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It's in Low C rank though... and that pretty much fulfills Sandslash's niche in terms of rankings. The Rock resist is good for maintaining high HP whilst spinner on Stealth Rock and it does wall Aerodactyl, however iirc Choice Band Head Smash (Or maybe even Life Orb) 2HKOs Sandslash off of Aggron, so that point is moot. Sandslash is undoubtedly a great spinner for Stall, but on Balanced, Offense, Bulky Offense, Hyper-offense, VolTurn (the guy would kill momentum a lot) and pretty much every other play-style I didn't cover. Now I know that the hate is uncalled for; he is nowhere near the worst pokemon in RU, and I don't hate him at all, but he simply isn't good enough to be Mid C since the teams he is good on are very rare.
 
I don't think there's a reason to move Jynx up. The same arguments still hold for why it's in Top B Rank. I would quote one of my old posts but it's hard to find with the new search feature, but Jynx has way too many checks to be in A Rank. It is really frail on the physical side, which holds it back, and it has a major case of 4 moveslot syndrome which also hinders its effectiveness. I think Top B Rank suites it well.

I think we should probably lock Sandslash in Low C again. That's the highest it should be. I used Sandslash + Alomomola and it still wasn't good. Yeah it can definitely get a spin or two off each game but aside from that it has terrible offensive presence and since it barely walls any relevant threats, it's kinda useless. Rock-types aren't all that common in RU, and the ones that are wreck Sandslash anyways. A ton of Pokemon beat Aerodactyl so that isn't really an accomplishment. Aggron 2HKOes the on-site spread with Head Smash and does 34.18 - 40.39% to 252 HP / 252 Def Sandslash; Heavy Slam 2HKOes any Sandslash spread. Rhydon has a chance to 3HKO Sandslash with Earthquake, as do many other physical attackers. This makes it way too reliant on Wish support which is already difficult because Alomomola and Sandslash get set up on by Grass-types. Sandslash simply struggles to stay alive and I would much rather use Kabutops or Cryogonal for spinning. I hope this ends people nomming Sandslash for a higher rank.

Speaking of Aerodactyl, I would like to nom it for Low B. Aerodactyl is incredibly easy to beat. There are usually multiple answers to it on every team, especially defensive teams, and it's just not a big threat in my opinion. I never even have to think about preparing for it because it's just checked by my Scarf user, defensive Water-type, priority user, or even Uxie. Also the lead set sucks :x.
 
DittoCrow said:
I think Magneton should stay in Top B. It's really easy to deal with, especially if it isn't running Eviolite because it's not the bulkiest mon around; it usually can't even switch into the offensive Steel-types without losing over 50%, and then it can't really switch in for the rest of the game. The item choice limits it too much. If it holds Eviolite, it lacks the power necessary to get OHKOs on stuff like Aggron, unless it runs Hidden Power Fighting which leaves Magneton more vulnerable to Escavalier. Choice Specs and Scarf lack Speed and power respectively, while both lack bulk (252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Megahorn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magneton: 173-204 (71.48 - 84.29%)). It's a really good support mon, but not really threatening to the point where I worry about it when building teams. I usually think of A Rank Pokemon as ones that can mostly be successful on their own. Magneton is usually paired with something like Fraxure because of its ability, not because it can just sweep through teams or wall a significant portion of the metagame.
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Bringing Magnet back up because it should be Low A. First off, because defensive sets are holding eviolite instead of leftovers, it is almost impossible for you to guess what Magnet it is based on the initial switch in, making it a great bluff. Second, if you don't need to trap steel types it has Analytic, which powers up its moves even when they switch, which magnet tends to force (I have even used analytic scarf Magnet to great effect). Next, Magneton makes Escavalier, one of the best mons in the meta, an automatic liability for your team, because if you kill anything with it it dies automatically, even though it is a great check to so much of the meta. Sure it isn't walling or sweeping a significant portion of the meta, (scarf can function as a cleaner, specs can be a wallbreaker) but its support is invaluable making stuff like Dragonair and Fraxure viable, while making stuff like Lilligant and CB Druddigon so much better, as it crushes their counters. As for not worrying about it while team building, I don't really worry about Mesprit while team building either, and it is mid A, Magneton, however means you must have a back up plan for Lilligant because it will plow through your team real quick if you don't. In summary, magnet has two great abilities, one that allows so many things to function in the current meta, great base stats for an NFE, a built in bluff with all of its sets, and pretty good typing. The support it provides is invaluable and should therefore be A rank.

I support Mandibuzz to low B, and I could go either way for Sandslash and Jynx.
 
I'd like to support Mandibuzz to either top C rank or low B rank after testing it for the past few days. As mentioned by Scraftyisthebest and dcae, Mandibuzz is actually quite an underrated defensive Pokemon in the current metagame, and from my experience can still have a lot of utility as a defensive Pokemon on a stall team despite her Stealth Rock weakness. Mandibuzz is capable of checking quite a few relevant threats in the current metagame such as Uxie, Mesprit, Sigilyph, Lilligant, Sceptile, Specs Slowking, Tangrowth, Amoonguss, Accelgor, and more. Easily switching in on them and either phazing them out, crippling them with taunt, or wearing them down with either Brave Bird or Foul Play, eventually defeating them, all while roosting off any damage done. Even outside of these Pokemon, Mandibuzz is really, really hard to immediately KO, and i've often found that her pure bulk can clutch me games since my opponent has no way to immediately break through Mandibuzz before she can Roost of the damage or kill them off with Foul Play. Speaking of Foul Play, its quite a nice buff for Mandibuzz, and imo one of the reasons that she's underrated at the moment, she used to have quite a few problems with her lack of power, but now that she can use her opponent's attack stat against them, she has a lot more utility and can clutch more games imo. Her fast taunt is a pretty nice utility to have as well, as it lets her cripple defensive Pokemon and pretty much stop them from setting up hazards/recovering/wishpassing/setting up as long as vulture is on the field (really useful vs last mon set up sweepers). Of course, Mandibuzz is still a pretty flawed Pokemon. That Stealth Rock weakness is quite annoying, as it cuts into her bulk a bit and makes her easier to wear down, meaning she requires Rapid Spin support to function to her full potential imo. Also, i kinda feel like Mandibuzz is limited to full stall teams (if anyone else has had positive experiences with her outside of stall feel free to post and say so), and that i don't think her unique kind of utility/bulk would really be useful outside of them. Even Pokemon like Alomomola that are often associated with stall teams can be used outside of stall imo. For example, Alomomola makes a great pivot and wishpasser on bulky offense. I don't really think i'd have an easy time fitting Mandibuzz onto a team that wasn't pure stall. Still though, i think Mandibuzz is viable enough at the moment to deserve a higher ranking, although i'll have to test/read a little more before i can decide whether she's more of a C or a B.
 
Doesn't matter that it can bluff if its moves are extremely predictable and have limited coverage. It's either going to be an Electric move (Thunderbolt or Volt Switch) or Flash Cannon. If you switch in an immunity and Magneton is choiced, it's screwed. Analytic defeats the purpose of Magneton's main role on teams; I probably wouldn't use it on a serious team. The Analytic set on its own probably wouldn't make A Rank either so I think the only sets in question are ones with Magnet Pull. Mesprit is prepared for while you're preparing for Psychic-types, who are some of the top threats in RU. You don't really need to prepare for Electrics (let alone Steels) because they're usually already covered when beating a major type, and Magneton's Steel typing actually makes it even easier to beat. I agree with you that it helps Dragons and Lilligant a lot by killing Steels but what it does outside of that is barely anything. Opposing Steel-types aren't always the answer to these Pokemon either so Magneton is sort of situational. I don't really find it to be an auto-loss if Magneton KOes my Escavalier, if that makes sense. I can understand that Magneton's support makes Pokemon more viable and opens up movepools (Lilligant can run HP Rock without worries) so I guess it can really go either way.
 
Ok, time to talk about stuff:

Sandslash: It's fine in Low C tbh. The only reason I would use it over Kabutops or Cryogonal is if I needed the resistance to Rock-type moves and an Electric immunity. It has good synergy with the stuff it typically spins for, but DC highlighted the big issues Sandslash has.

Jynx: Again, something that should stay where it is imo. Sure, it has plenty of viable sets and moves, but it suffers from a major case of 4MSS. Sure, it does put a lot of Sleep Talk users (Entei, Emboar, etc.) in a bad spot with its Psychic STAB, but Scarf Emboar outspeeds and OHKOes with p. much any move it uses out of Sleep Talk while Entei can tank one Psychic move and KO back with p. much anything. It's definitely a threat that you have to be careful around, but there are plenty of checks to it and its 4MSS hurts pretty badly. Gallade has bad 4MSS too, but it at least has some bulk to go defensive and a SR resistance.

Aerodactyl: Kinda have to agree with this. While it has amazing Speed, the ubiquity of Scarf Rotom-C makes it a heavy liability against a lot of offensive teams since it's forced to either give Rotom-C's team momentum or get itself OHKOed. The rise of Substitute users such as Gallade and Sceptile and priority users like Kabutops and Absol also hurts pretty badly since they can bypass Aero's high Speed. Like DC said, I don't commonly find myself preparing for it as my check(s) to Aggron can generally handle Aero.

Will test out Mandibuzz to form an opinion on it.
 
Keep in mind that Sandslash was in D Rank up until about a month ago. Nothing really changed for it or made it better. You're right, I would never consider Sandslash on an RU team unless there was a very specific need for SR, Rapid Spin, and a Rock-type switch-in. Also there really is no "big three" for spinners since only two are actually good. Plus I would consider Hitmonchan before Sandslash for spinning. I'd even argue that Sandslash fits fine with other Low C mons. They're not totally uncompetitive—that's what D Rank is, which is why Sandslash was moved out of it in the first place. Stuff like Volbeat and Whimsicott can be useful on certain teams while the other mons are mostly outclassed or gimmicks. Sandslash is definitely outclassed, but can be useful for teams that need the 3 roles I mentioned above.
 
While I don't inherently agree with Aerodactyl to Low B, I could see it being Mid B. If there is one team that an Aerodactyl that is actually being used correctly can do well against, its offensive teams that depend on Scarf Emboar as a revenge killer. imo, anything that is faster than Choice Scarf Emboar is in one of the best positions speed-wise in the tier, just like Swellow (outspeeding Adamant Scarf Braviary is also a nice plus). I will admit it can be rather easy to wall, but sometimes it can put me under a lot of pressure when I figure out I don't have anything that can outspeed it. With moves like Fire Blast and Aqua Tail in its arsenal, it can do quite a bit of damage to some typical Pokemon that walls its STAB, or serve as a back-up/singular revenge killer/cleaner that doesn't have to be forced into being locked into move, as it has enough speed to do so in RU. However, it is fairly easy to wall as DittoCrow mentioned, and its fraility and Stealth Rock weakness are also annoying, especially when it needs a super effective attack to hit stuff for very much damage, while stall can potentially wreck it. Low B is a bit too low for a Pokemon with such a valuable speed stat, but Mid B would be better imo

It is a bit hard to give a definite opinion since 90% of the Aerodactyls on the ladder seem to be sash leads, but when actually used in a not crappy role, it can do decently.

Oh yeah and can someone explain why Swanna is all the way in Top C? I've never seen one, and it doesn't even have an analysis. It's not very bulky, not very strong, and is rather dependent on rain, while getting wrecked by most top threats. (Slowking, Sceptile, Druddigon, Rotom-C, and more do a lot to it.)
 
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Alright, going to make a few updates now

Updates said:
Aerodactyl down from top B Rank ---> mid B rank
Mandibuzz up from mid C rank ----> top C rank
Dragonair up from mid C rank ----> top C rank

Pokemon in need of more discussion:

Musharna
Swanna
Sandslash
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All 3 of the changes i've made today could be taken further up and down respectively, but i'd like some more discussion on all of them first to determine whether i should do that or not
 
I think Swanna is in its place or maybe it could be mid-C, but I think C is very accurate for Swanna. It doesn't have bad stats and it can do very well with a ground type, but it is very dependant on rain to deal top tier damage and to have Hurricane hit and if you try to have a ser that doesn't depend on rain by giving it Brave bird, its durability will take a massive hit as after a string brave bird hit it will be taken out by any decently powered neutral move. The weather can also be a bane, as Swanna can then be hit by perfectly accurate thunders, which probably even the non-stab weaker variants will take out even a bulky Swanna (if anyone uses one). Swanna is blessed with very strong STAB moves and a nice dual STAB, but it is dependant on team support from a ground type and can't really take a hit. So, in conclusion, I would suggest either Swanba doesn't move from where it is, or it moves down to mid-C.
 
You are over-hyping Kangaskhan a lot. With stall becoming a more prominent play-style lots of physical walls will be showing up everywhere, and he can't do anything to them. You said he smashes Steels with Earthquake?
252 Atk Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Steelix: 78-92 (22.03 - 25.98%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
Terrible damage.
252 Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 91-108 (26.53 - 31.48%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Durant: 86-102 (33.33 - 39.53%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So by steels you meant Magneton and Klinklang, correct?

The fact is that the meta-game is quite unkind to Kangaskhan, and since you must have tested him against the ladder you would have run into a lot of Galvantula, a Pokemon that isn't really a threat you need kangaskhan to cover. Obviously he's not out-classed at the double priority at all, however it pretty much only works to shut down the frailest of RU such as the afore-mentioned Galvantula or Cinccino without lots of support. It will need hazard support to KO most of the tier and in RU you will pretty much require a Life Orb, Choice Band or Dark/Normal Gem to do enough damage to anything in the tier due to the general bulkiness of it, which hurts Kangaskhan's bulkiness immensely. I think Low A rank is far too high and when you mentioned Kangaskhan I immediately thought "C Rank". After thinking it through more I think it may be able to hold up in Low-B rank but no higher.
 
Celever I completely disagree. Okay, so it gets walled by Steelix... so do a lot of other Pokemon. Escavalier and Durant? While that is annoying, Kangaskhan shouldn't be dealing with those Pokemon. Kanga is a Pokemon that works very well against a lot of frailer Pokemon, including Gallade, Sceptile, Sigilph, and pretty much anything that is fast and offensive. Fake Out and Sucker Punch do any revenge killing business, and Silk Scarf Double Edge is a 2HKO on a lot of Pokemon because of its base power. 105/80/80 makes it semi-bulky and means it can take a hit or two if it needs to, unlike something like Cinncino who would struggle a lot more with a bulky meta game as it kills or gets killed. 90 base speed is also good in this meta, and Scrappy means Ghosts lose against it. Not being able to hurt 3 Pokemon isn't exactly awful considering it does very well another chunk of it.

I also really hate the assumption that he "played against a bunch of Galvantulas" to discredit his argument Because you have no way of knowing what he actually played against. I've seen Kangaskhan do a lot against more offensive teams, a play style that it is a big threat to. Even against balance I wouldn't call it dead weight

Despite what I just said I think it is a Top B still, although im definitely not opposed to Low A, Kanga is good.
 
Just wanted to let everyone know that i'll be updating this tommorow if there are any more proposals made, and i actually have a proposal of my own to go along with it.

So anyways, after using it quite a bit and even making a post about it in the np thread, i think Duosion might deserve a spot in Top C rank. The little guy is pretty damn underrated imo, and while he recieves competition from other Psychic-types such as Sigilyph, Uxie, Musharna etc, he has his own advantages that help him stand out and he's clutched me quite a few games to be honest, some of which couldnt've been won if i was using any of the other three Pokemon mentioned in its place. For one thing, Duosion, like its evolution Reuniclus in OU, makes an exceptionally good stallbreaker, having Magic Guard to ignore passive damage and setting up all over the majority of defensive Pokemon, while the cell's access to reliable recovery prevents it from ever being broken through. Not even teams with Spiritomb are safe from Duosion assuming the defensive set, as its immune to Will-O-Wisp, doesn't take much from Foul Play, and can KO with Hidden Power Fire after a few boosts. Sigilyph gives Duosion a bit of competition as a stallbreaker and Psychic-type because of its higher Speed stat and ability to effectively hold items other than Eviolite, but i feel Duosion's greater bulk, lower Speed that prevents it from being crippled nearly as much from being paralyzed as sigi, and lack of weaknesses to Rock- Electric- and Ice-type moves makes it harder to take down overall and makes it a better check to certain Pokemon such as Hitmonlee) give the cell a definite niche over the aztec bird. Actually, thinking about it a little bit, Duosion could be seen as an effective middle ground between Sigilyph and Musharna, the blob can stallbreak just as well as Sigilyph and has the coveted Magic Guard just like it, but Duosion plays much more like Musharna on the battlefield, taking hits, recovering off the damage, and eventually securing a sweep with Calm Mind. Calm Mind Duosion has advantages over both. Outside of Calm Mind, Duosion can pull off Trick Room decently well too, although it has to choose between power and significant bulk when doing so which can be a bit annoying :x. Still though, the combination of low Speed, Great Special Attack, and Magic Guard mean its certainly viable in this role (Focus Sash Trick Room+Endeavor Duosion could be effective as well for a guarenteed Trick Room+Endeavor, even without hail to finish the opponent off like on quantum of Solosis). Overall, from personal experience with Duosion, i feel that despite the competition from other Psychic-types, its probably deserving of top C rank, does anyone else have an opinion?
 
Molk said:
Just wanted to let everyone know that i'll be updating this tommorow if there are any more proposals made, and i actually have a proposal of my own to go along with it.

So anyways, after using it quite a bit and even making a post about it in the np thread, i think Duosion might deserve a spot in Top C rank. The little guy is pretty damn underrated imo, and while he recieves competition from other Psychic-types such as Sigilyph, Uxie, Musharna etc, he has his own advantages that help him stand out and he's clutched me quite a few games to be honest, some of which couldnt've been won if i was using any of the other three Pokemon mentioned in its place. For one thing, Duosion, like its evolution Reuniclus in OU, makes an exceptionally good stallbreaker, having Magic Guard to ignore passive damage and setting up all over the majority of defensive Pokemon, while the cell's access to reliable recovery prevents it from ever being broken through. Not even teams with Spiritomb are safe from Duosion assuming the defensive set, as its immune to Will-O-Wisp, doesn't take much from Foul Play, and can KO with Hidden Power Fire after a few boosts. Sigilyph gives Duosion a bit of competition as a stallbreaker and Psychic-type because of its higher Speed stat and ability to effectively hold items other than Eviolite, but i feel Duosion's greater bulk, lower Speed that prevents it from being crippled nearly as much from being paralyzed as sigi, and lack of weaknesses to Rock- Electric- and Ice-type moves makes it harder to take down overall and makes it a better check to certain Pokemon such as Hitmonlee) give the cell a definite niche over the aztec bird. Actually, thinking about it a little bit, Duosion could be seen as an effective middle ground between Sigilyph and Musharna, the blob can stallbreak just as well as Sigilyph and has the coveted Magic Guard just like it, but Duosion plays much more like Musharna on the battlefield, taking hits, recovering off the damage, and eventually securing a sweep with Calm Mind. Calm Mind Duosion has advantages over both. Outside of Calm Mind, Duosion can pull off Trick Room decently well too, although it has to choose between power and significant bulk when doing so which can be a bit annoying :x. Still though, the combination of low Speed, Great Special Attack, and Magic Guard mean its certainly viable in this role (Focus Sash Trick Room+Endeavor Duosion could be effective as well for a guarenteed Trick Room+Endeavor, even without hail to finish the opponent off like on quantum of Solosis). Overall, from personal experience with Duosion, i feel that despite the competition from other Psychic-types, its probably deserving of top C rank, does anyone else have an opinion?
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I totaly agree with your post, Duosion is extremely deadly and after a few calm minds and can do a game ending sweep if the opponent's Ghost and dark types were dealt with. You can then run an HP of your choice to deal with what you have trouble, like having HP ice to deal with Sigilyph, Golurk and Druddigon, so Duosion is an extremely versatile sweeper as he has a lot of possibilities, but you have to know that he will inevitably be walled by one or the other RU threat, so a high C rank is adequate for it.
 
Don't have a lot to say about Duosion as I have very limited experience with it, but I'm going to take this time to make a suggestion of my own.

After having played around with it and even mentioning an offensive set in the np thread a few days ago, I'm going to push Murkrow for at least Top C Rank. Murkrow's Prankster ability has always been a neat tool for it and the addition of Foul Play to its movepool has only helped it as it can now pose as an even more annoying defensive threat. Prankster allows it to act as an emergency hinderance to pretty much any offensive threat that gets out of hand and it does have some neat resistances and immunities due to its typing. Immunities to Psychic- and Ground-types moves is good while a resistance to Dark-, Ghost-, and Grass-type moves doesn't hurt either. Now, I've spent time talking about Murkrow as more of a defensive threat, but it can be an offensive threat as well thanks to another ability and good Speed. Insomnia combined with a solid base 91 Speed stat allows Murkrow to deal with many defensive sleep inducers in RU while also making opposing Lilligant think twice about opening up with Sleep Powder, thus possibly allowing you to immediately switch-in your check or revenge killer if it can handle a possible HP Rock. Otherwise, Murkrow has good enough base 85 offenses on top of a powerful STAB move in Brave Bird. Sucker Punch makes revenge killing Murkrow a harder task than it might seem as its good Speed also means that it outspeed most other priority users in the tier (Entei and Weak Armor-boosted Kabutops are the only two common ones to outspeed Krow) while every other possible revenge killer has to tank a Sucker Punch before they can attack. It seems Steel-types would give Murkrow serious problems, but Heat Wave makes this a non-issue as Ferroseed, Escavalier, and Tangrowth are presented with issues. Murkrow is not without problems though. Offensive sets struggle to find ways to come in due to general frailty while Prankster sets struggle with special attackers that can manage paralysis such as Slowking, Eelektross, and Tangrowth. However, Murkrow has enough versatility and use that it should be moved up to at least Top C Rank imo.
 
I think Murkrow is fine at Low C (which I think it is at) if only because of its immense frailty. It's not really that much of a defensive threat, its mostly just annoying because even with an Eviolite its defenses are honestly pretty average (wheras without it they are awful), while Dark/Flying doesn't offer much in the way of resistances (almost everything can at least hit it neutrally, and it has a lot of weaknesses). To put it in perspective...

252 Atk Choice Band Escavalier (+Atk) Megahorn vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Murkrow (+Def) : 80.56% - 94.75% (2 hits to KO)

Yes, I know Escavalier is very powerful. But the fact that Murkrow is sporting an Eviolite and maximum defenses and yet still only barely avoids a OHKO (doesn't if Stealth Rock is up) goes to show that Murkrow has fairly little bulk no matter what. It's only real defensive moves are Thunder Wave, Taunt, and Roost as well, so in most cases I'd probably pick something else that has resistances against more of the metagame. Even though a priority Roost helps, LO Sigilyph can 2HKO even the bulkiest of Murkrow with Air Slash after Stealth Rock. While the aforementioned Roost helps, there are far stronger moves out there that Murkrow may have to try and handle, and may fail as a result of getting plowed through.

Unfortunately, I don't really think its much in the way of offenses either. You know how when I wanted Rapidash to be lowered because it died pretty much immediately? Murkrow dies even faster than Rapidash, sporting a lower HP, pitiful defenses that ensure its death if you touch it, not really that great of offensive stats. It also has such bad defenses that its kind of embarrasing.

0 Atk Alomomola Waterfall vs 0 HP/0 Def Murkrow: 51.72% - 60.92% (2 hits to KO)

When you get 2HKOed by an Alomomola without hazard support you got a problem on your hands. Sucker Punch also fails to OHKO quite a few Pokemon because 85 attack isn't that good - Murkrow will really only KO something if its weak to the move in question, although Brave Bird may actually kill stuff. Unfortunately, Brave Bird chips off about half of Murkrow's health because that is how bad its HP is, which may leave you scratching your head about where its HP went. Absol's Sucker Punch is also an insane amount more powerful than Murkrow's so then it can actually kill stuff with it - even Accelgor can sometimes survive Sucker Punch if there aren't any hazards and that thing has no physical bulk at all, wheras Absol will always KO with quite a bit to spare. Maybe its just me, but something that is that hard to switch in that offers not nearly enough power to make up for it isn't worth a more reliable option, or something that has a much higher reward such as Zangoose (Murkrow makes Zangoose look bulky x_x). It's fun but its not too difficult to deal with.

Overall, I feel Murkrow is a rather mediocre offensive and defensive Pokemon and should remain in Low C. It has its niches but they aren't too amazing.
 
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Can someone explain to me why Hitmonlee is mid B? I don't want to embarrass myself and make a case for at least B+ maybe A-
 
Hitmonlee is B+ -_- Good thing you didn't make your case yet.

That said, Hitmonlee is likely not A- due to its inability to even touch bulky Psychics and Ghosts due to Sucker Punch being ineffective against them. It also only has one chance to sweep which it can do well (although it can occasionally force it to hold back on using its item too early or waste it) but it needs support to do so, mainly Pursuit support. Even then, between its frail defenses and use of Close Combat, priority can take it out pretty quickly mid-sweep or even pre-sweep. Also, if Hitmonlee isn't abusing Unburden at the moment, you're essentially using a Gallade without all the neat toys like Will-o-Wisp, Swords Dance, Drain Punch, Trick, etc...so yeah, one chance to not prove to be inferior to an already existing Fighting-type in the tier.
 
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alright, going to make some small updates!

Updates said:
Duosion up from mid C rank ---> top C rank
Swanna down from top C rank ---> mid C rank (might move it back up after testing it some more if it works out)

Pokemon in need of more discussion:

Murkrow
Kangaskhan
Hitmonlee
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Might propose some things here later, so be sure to keep an eye out!
 
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I can't agree with moving Hitmonlee up tbh. The main problem with Hitmonlee is that it is relatively helpless against Psychic and Ghost-type Pokemon such as Uxie and Spiritomb; with such things like Tomb and Mesprit/Uxie being common sights, Hitmonlee absolutely needs Pursuit support to thrive; also it only has one round to be able to sweep because Unburden only activates once, so it needs it counters out. Hitmonlee is definitely really good and is a great sweeper that can do well; that warrants it Top B-Rank. But the difference between A and B is the support; and Hitmonlee does need a bit more support than an A-Rank mon to bring out its full potential. Top B is fine though because it fits in well there.
 
That is the risk of Unburden. It only activates once, which means it is generally a do-or-die Pokemon. And considering that Hitmonlee does not even have a coverage move to hit most Psychic and Ghosts with, it is not doing much without support. However, Sceptile has good enough coverage to hit the threats it needs to, with access to Leaf Blade, Acrobatics, Drain Punch, Earthquake, and Rock Slide to choose from, and it is already blazing fast as is, so it is not necessarily crippled if the Unburden is wasted - only Acrobatics is crippled. Hitmonlee just isn't getting past its counters. There's also Drifblim, but that thing needs support to deal with Stealth Rock, shit like Sucker Punch Spiritomb, and also gets crippled if it wastes the Unburden. And since Hitmonlee is rarely ever seen without Unburden, it essentially is a risk-reward Pokemon. It should stay in Top B.
 
There's also another problem for Hitmonlee outside of its inability to get past Psychic- and Ghost-types; Gallade. Not only can Gallade actually emergency check Hitmonlee (have legit done this before) but it also gives direct competition to Hitmonlee for the sweeping role. While Lee is much harder to kill once it gets going, Gallade is much more self sufficient as it wields Night Slash, a move that lets it get past every Ghost- and Psychic-type in the tier bar Spiritomb. This means Gallade requires so much less support as it can often times handle the bane of most other Fighting-types on its own thanks to Night Slash. Lee is certainly a threat to sweep and if you lose your Ghost- and/or Psychic-type, you're pretty much screwed. But Lee absolutely needs Pursuit support and it only gets one shot to sweep. The support can definitely be worth it, but because it only gets one shot at sweeping, that's ultimately why I think it should stay in Top B.
 
I looked at D Rank today and I was kinda surprised that Natu was the lowest-ranked mon on the list. It does have a niche and I've seen it work on some teams like VoltTurn and dual screens so it should probably be with the other Mid D Rank mons.

Gabite should also be moved to Low C. It is actually pretty powerful with a Choice Band and Outrage / Earthquake can be hard to switch in to. I don't think it belongs in D Rank tbh.

For the untested mons, I would put Rotom-F in Mid or Low C, Arbok, Leafeon, and Relicanth in Low C, and Torkoal in Low C or Top D. I'd remove Golduck altogether since I don't really see a reason to use it.

If anyone wants more of an explanation for something above then feel free to ask.
 
DittoCrow said:
I looked at D Rank today and I was kinda surprised that Natu was the lowest-ranked mon on the list. It does have a niche and I've seen it work on some teams like VoltTurn and dual screens so it should probably be with the other Mid D Rank mons.
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Relating to this I believe that D should only be split into High and Low. Putting 3 ranks in D pretty much means everyone will never even try to nominate something as low as Low D, as it would (usually) be considered unviable and be a somewhat pointless nom.

I have a nomination up and coming but I need to get my reasoning together.
 
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