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Lower Tiers The RU Viability Ranking Thread

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Swamp-Rocket said:
Disagree with this for a few reasons.

Dusknoir is the most physically bulky Ghost in RU, even if by a small marigin. Its probably the only one that stands a chance against both Kabutops and Cryogonal, as most are specified to blocking one of them. Even if it usually loses to Kabutops, its not like any of the other Ghosts can actually defeat it. For example, Golurk gets OHKOed by both (its not a spinblocker as much as a tank but w/e). It has a good (not great) bulk, Fire Punch, and Will-O-Wisp makes it a good check to Fighting-types and Escavalier. Unlike the others it can actually hurt Escavalier (I guess Golurk can too). Its also a lot bulkier than Spiritomb, and Spiritomb having no weaknesses is pretty irrelavent because it has only one resistance anyway. Its probably the only Ghost to do both, and although its not great at either, it has that going for it. Along with the fact Dusknoir is locked into D as it is, it doesn't deserve to be with Munchlax - while it slowly dies it can do a few disruptive things to the opponent.
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I'll concede I guess.

Dusknoir doesn't do its job very well but I guess it's alright. It sucks, sure, but a defensive spinblocker set (I wrote the analysis) can work, and also is good at taking on Fighting-types like Hitmonlee as well as random stuff. Will-O-Wisp+Pain Split is a little disruptive and can also take on most spinners with Fire Punch+EQ. iirc I also saw an LO TR set work well. It doesn't do its job well, but what you said should count Dusknoir as "Viable" and not "Atrocious"
 
Ok, ive made some recent updates to the ranks, and i also added quite a few Pokemon into Untested recently, most of which i mentioned in previous posts, so heres a summary of the changes i've made since the last update.

Added Cacturne to C rank
Added Glalie to D rank
Added Typhlosion to mid B rank
Added Sawsbuck to low B rank
Added Camerupt to untested
Added Muk to untested
Added Victreebel to untested
Added Weezing to untested
Added Dodrio to untested
Removed Metang from the ranks entirely
Click to expand...

While im at it, i'd also like to suggest adding Ferroseed to low B rank, despite previously being shaky on putting Ferro anywhere above C rank, i think this is actually pretty reasonable now. Ferroseed comes equipped with good mixed bulk with Eviolite factored in, a unique Grass/Steel typing which grants it several significant resistances, and a pretty cool support movepool that includes options such as Stealth Rock, Spikes, Thunder Wave, and Leech Seed. Ferroseed's bulk and typing allows it to check common Pokemon including but not limited to Kabutops, Omastar, Feraligatr, Crawdaunt (when running Seed Bomb), Cryogonal, Hidden Power Rock Lilligant, Aggron, and Outrage locked Druddigon, all while potentially setting up Spikes or spreading Paralysis or Leech Seed in the process. Despite Ferroseed's low base 50 Attack stat, its not as easy to switch in on as most people think, the combination of Thunder Wave and Leech Seed is usually enough to deter most Pokemon from coming in directly on Ferroseed, not to mention that Gyro Ball is almost always hitting foes for 150 BP thanks to its incredibly low Speed stat, somewhat making up for its low Attack stat. Lastly, Ferroseed poses a significant threat to all the relevant Rapid Spinners in the tier, coming in on Kabutops, Cryogonal, and Sandslash with near impunity and posing a significant threat in return with Gyro Ball and Leech Seed, as an added bonus, the Rapid Spinners get one eighth of their hp shaved off every time they try to spin on Ferroseed thanks to Iron Barbs, further deterring spinning.

(man if you told me i was gonna post this 6 months ago...)
 
I've used golem before, and I definitely think that it deserves a rank. Although golem is much less bulky than rhydon, explosion and sucker punch are pretty big assets. Sturdy allows it to get up SR vs pretty much everything, bar cincinno and faster taunt users, which apart from whimsicott all lose to golem anyway if they taunt first. Explosion allows golem to hit a lot of pokes very hard indeed, straight up 1HKO'ing Rotom-Mow for example as well as Hitmonchan and probably others as well. Sucker Punch is also pretty cool, allowing golem to revenge kill some weakened threats such as otr slowking and weakened lilligant etc.

Imo, Golem is mostly outclassed by rhydon, which has much better bulk with eviolite, but Explosion, Sturdy and Sucker Punch are pretty cool assets. I don't think that golem is a bad poke, like dusknoir, but is for the most part outclassed, so should be c rank.
 
I might get alot of disagreement here, but I feel that Dusknoir should be Low C-Rank, even though he is locked into D-Rank. I understand that he may be outclassed by other ghost types, but he isn't a bad spinblocker. When I was a noob and was using dusknoir, the Horrible subpunch set was suprisingly good at spinblocking, since it beat both kabutops and sandslash. Even though he has Super low HP, it can be turned into an advantage since pain split will usually heal you back to full health. Dusknoir also has a few other utilities such as beating escavalier and to the lesser extent durant with fire punch and beating fighting types like hitmonlee. He also has the best overall physical bulk in ru.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the RU metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in RU. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

Dusknoir fits this description well. It has a notable niche in the metagame , which is to make quick work of kabutops (watch out for SD) and cryonagal, but has the notable flaw of not being useful in other situations, such as stopping special attackers. It also faces stiff competition with the other ghost types of RU.

Also, I don't see what niche golem has over crustle and rhydon.
 
Amoonguss is one of the best tanks in the RU meta, and I think he should be A rank
With Access to Spore, recovery, and a decent Special Attack, amoonguss is a fantastic Pokemon.
 
Magcargo 2 said:
Dusknoir fits this description well. It has a notable niche in the metagame , which is to make quick work of kabutops
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252 Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Dusknoir: 126-149 (42.85 - 50.68%) -- 57.03% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

152 Atk Dusknoir Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kabutops: 160-190 (61.06 - 72.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Tell me again how Dusknoir makes quick work of Kabutops? Better than 50% chance to be 2HKO'd after Rocks, can't 1HKO in return regardless, I don't see how you'r coming out on top especially considering most I'v seen don't run EQ over Shadow Punch and Seismic Toss. Best you can do is burn Kabutops, but then what did you accomplish? Sacrifice a team member to burn the other teams spinner that you'r supposed to beat??? If you call that coming out on top, more power to you but Kabutops is still alive to spin later on, meaning it still isn't useless.

Dusknoir needs to stay D-Rank, only reason I say keep it out of E-Rank is it's ability to function as a half way decent Trick Room setter by capitalizing on it's terrible speed and ability to usually taking 2 shots for something to kill it, allowing it to set TR then hit something as it dies. Other wise every time I face it I just can't be bothered by it, it takes 2 maybe 3 shots max maybe burn something if it gets lucky but otherwise it just does nothing but sit there and die slowly.
 
Hm. All very good points, and laying out how much damage Tops takes in the process puts it in perspective. Fair enough, I kinda got hyped up seeing someone say Dusknoir makes quick work of Kabutops, which isn't true but Kabutops doesn't really beat Dusknoir with any reliability either. Thanks for clearing that up Windsong.
 
Or you can just use Adamant Tops and OHKO 100% (80%) of the time with +2 Stone Edge. Tops also needs to be Adamant to OHKO Rotom with +2 Aqua Jet and Misdreavus with +2 Stone Edge (all after SR). Basically, if Tops really wants to beat spinblockers, it should be Adamant SD, and Dusknoir loses to that just as badly as any other spinblocker does.
 
First of all Kabutops is almost every time running Adamant, since needs it to beat spinblockers and using the extra Speed, of using Jolly, doesnt provide anything important (Aqua Jet Absol before the use Sucker Punch, and this isnt important). Also, Kabutops usually carry SD, and like Honko said there are any Spinblocker that can consitently survives from +2 Stone Edge / Aqua Jet (only Defensive Cofagrigus could survive from +2 SE even with SR, but needs to be full of help, and Cofa isnt ru anymore...). Finally this only I need to say:

252 +2 Atk Life Orb Kabutops (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 252 HP/252 Def Dusknoir (+Def) : 84,69% - 100%
Entry hazards damage: 36
After entry hazards: 285 - 330 (96,94% - 112,24%)
81,25% chance to OHKO

Even considering the acc from SE you has 65% chance to beat it. Dusknoir is simple an unrealiable answer to Kabutops. If you dont use full def you has no real chance. Dusknoir is good in D Rank, pretty bad pokemon in this metagame.
 
Since everybody is disagreeing with me, I withdraw my arguement for dusknoir. However, I still believe that scyther should be low b-rank.

Anyway, Sandslash and primeape go down to D-rank. Sandslash is THE WORST spinner in RU (even worse than hitmonchan) and has no real niche over kabutops or cryonagal. The offesive spinner set is outclassed by kabutops while the defensive spinner set is often going to be worse than cryonagal because sandslash lacks reliable recovery. Sandslash also has poor special bulk and typing, leaving it vulnerable to most special attackers. It also has poor speed, meaning that faster pokes can easily take it out. Hitmonchan may not be a great rapid spinner, but has the niche of being able to spin against ghost types with forsight, making it a slightly better rapid spinner. In the end, sandslash will usually end up being trash.

Primeape also finds itself outclassed by the many other fighting types of RU. Primeape is one of the frailest fighting types in RU and unlike medicham, doesn't have a great ability to make up for it. It may be a fast fighting type, but its base 95 isn't that great and despite having lower speed, hitmonlee and sawk are better option for fast fighting types because they have higher attack and umberdon in hitmonlee's case. It is also wall by nidoqueen, one of the most used pokemon in RU.

So guys, what are you're thoughts. Are all of these pokemon trash, or am I messed up for trying to send them down to D-rank. Also, I agree with Molk that ferroseed should be low b-rank. Ferroseed is an amazing check to fraxture and druddigon, Has a gyro ball that hit harder than unboosted Archeop's rock slide and can setup Spikes and SR. Low B-Rank seems like a good fit for it.
 
Magcargo 2 said:
Since everybody is disagreeing with me, I withdraw my arguement for dusknoir. However, I still believe that scyther should be low b-rank.

Anyway, Sandslash and primeape go down to D-rank. Sandslash is THE WORST spinner in RU (even worse than hitmonchan) and has no real niche over kabutops or cryonagal. The offesive spinner set is outclassed by kabutops while the defensive spinner set is often going to be worse than cryonagal because sandslash lacks reliable recovery. Sandslash also has poor special bulk and typing, leaving it vulnerable to most special attackers. It also has poor speed, meaning that faster pokes can easily take it out. Hitmonchan may not be a great rapid spinner, but has the niche of being able to spin against ghost types with forsight, making it a slightly better rapid spinner. In the end, sandslash will usually end up being trash.
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You do not know what you are talking about.
Sandslash isn't bad, people use it wrong. They slap rapid spin on a swords dance set and expect it to work.
"(even worse than hitmonchan)" No. It isn't, it just isn't.
"The offesive spinner set is outclassed by kabutops while the defensive spinner set is often going to be worse than cryonagal because sandslash lacks reliable recovery." It may be out-classed offensively, but Cryogonal and its base 30 defense... man.. the defensiveness of that! Unless of course you meant special defense, but then what outclasses sandslash as a physically defensive spinner?
"Sandslash also has poor special bulk and typing, leaving it vulnerable to most special attackers."
Its funny, because you said that cryogonal was a great defensive spinner when it has far worse physical bulk than sandslash does special, and can't even take one physical hit. Especially after its weakness to stealth rocks, and sandslash's resistance. Note that I am not bad-mouthing cryogonal, as you will see later (also I absolutely love its design) but you compared the two of them, so I am doing the same.
"Hitmonchan may not be a great rapid spinner, but has the niche of being able to spin against ghost types with foresight, making it a slightly better rapid spinner." So hitmonchan is the best spinner in the tier because it has foresight. If it out-classes sandslash in the spinner role due to that one move, then why doesn't it out-class cryogonal or kabutops because of it?

And, in spite of all that you said, you didn't even mention the fact that it can sweep pretty reliably with swords dance. Not every kabutops uses rapid spin, not every hitmonchan uses rapid spin, no hitmonlee use rapid spin and not every sandslash uses rapid spin! In the D rank decription it explains "are only capable of doing their specific task". Thus why hitmonchan is there because it only spins. But then you have sandslash, who sweeps with swords dance. On two different sets, maybe, but either way it has 2 specific tasks it can do and it does perfectly well at both, keeping it a C rank. Maybe a low C, maybe a mid C, but either way a C.

Note on the other two things you said:
I really need to test out primeape some time, its stats and typing look really nice to me.

If your team has trouble with Cinccino, have you ever tried rocky helmet ferroseed? It kills cinccino by switching in to it, since 4 rounds of iron barbs and rocky helmet kills cinccino by itself. It also completely works with the hazard setter role, I just thought I would note that since it is the only pokemon in RU OR NU that can do such a thing. (and it has to survive 4 rounds in case some anonymous weak pokemon has the right ability as well).
 
imo when I used Primeape it was actually pretty useful as a scouter and Defiant was a pretty cool surprise to some teams although Vital Spirit is often more useful. Anywways, I think Primeape can have an interesting place on teams, and it sports very cool speed for a Scarfer, and an interesting support movepool including Encore. I think Primeape is capable of maintaining a C-rank, because it's really not that bad.
 
Ok, I withdraw my arguements for those two. However, ferroseed and scyther should both go to low B-Rank. Scyther has amazing speed, usable bulk with eviolite and a great scouting move in U-Turn. Scyther can tank attacks like rotom-c's life orb thunderbolt and sceptile's HP rock if SR isn't in play. Like moltres, it is 4x weak to rock, but spinning is very easy in RU.
Ferroseed on the other hand, can wall pokemon like cinncino, druddigon, crawdaunt etc. thanks to its incredible typing. While it does give it a fire and fighting weakness, it give it key resistences to grass, electric and water, three common attacking types in RU. It doesn't have offensive presence whatsoever, but thanks to its low speed, gyro ball has enough power to break substitutes from sceptile and golurk. Ferroseed can also set both spikes and SR, making it a good team supporter.

EDIT: Shouldn't gorebyss and huntail be ranked?
 
I'm going to nominate kangaskhan for low A rank(maybe even mid).

Kangaskhan is really, really good in this metagame, thanks to a combination of bulk, speed and ability. Because of its good natural bulk, it can survive hits such as absol sucker punch after one round of LO and sr damage, as well as kabutops aqua jet after 2 rounds of sr(although it's going to need drain punch not to die to LO recoil afterwards). It can also tank scarf rotom-c leaf storm and any of nidoqueen's moves bar focus blast with sr up, which is pretty damn impressive, and no other offensive normal type can hope to do this iirc. Kanga can also tank a LO hurricane / fire blast from moltres at full health. It also has great speed in RU, outspeeding Lilligant and tying with Moltres, and kanga also has decently powerful priority in the form of fake out, which is brilliant for checking substitute pokes such as LO rotom, as well as breaking focus sashes on smeargle, which kanga can stop from doing anything at all which is cool. Fake Out can also be used to finish off weakened pokes, as well as add another layer of damage to a poke at the price of 10% of your health since fake out always flinches. Kanga can also run sucker punch, and with fake out plus sucker punch many frail threats can be quickly ko'd without kanga taking any damage what so ever. Kangaskhan also has the ability scrappy, which is huge for any normal type, as ghost types such as spiritomb / rotom can't switch in on kangaskhan like they would for say zangoose, as return hits both of them for massive damage. This makes it much easier to spam your STAB move, which is great for any offensive pokemon.

Kangaskhan is not without its flaws however. It doesn't hit nearly as hard as zangoose after toxic orb boost, or tauros. It also isn't massively fast like sceptile or cincinno. However, kanga's unique combination of bulk, scrappy, and powerful priority makes it a solid low a rank mon imo, maybe even mid a.
 
I second both Scyther and Ferroseed for low B-Rank.

Bulky SD Scyther is incredible. It has great bulk that with Eviolite allow it to take even super effective moves! Scyther can as a result set up SD a lot, and after some boosts, it can definitely sweep if Steels and Rhydon are out of the way. Speaking of which, SD+U-turn can hurt and also allows Scyther to keep up momentum. This also dishes some real good pain on Slowking, Uxie, and Mesprit. The SR weakness is crippling, but let's face it; spinning is really easy, and as it is with Moltres, Scyther has great synergy with the premier spinner of RU, Kabutops, and as Cherub said, Scyther and Kabutops together in Team Preview look pretty amazing. Low B-Rank imo.

Ferroseed, despite facing competition from the mostly superior Roselia, is a good Spiker that can do as well as things like Scolipede/Roselia when it comes down to it. Ferroseed has a really useful defensive typing, and a good ability in Iron Barbs as well. This makes Ferroseed a good switch-in to Cinccino, wearing it down really fast with Iron Barb and Life Orb damage. Ferroseed also holds the dubious honor shared only with Quagsire and Poliwrath in hard countering Crawdaunt. This thing also switches in nicely into Druddigon and Fraxure, among many others. While Steelix and Escavalier are generally better choices at countering Cinc and the Dragons, Ferroseed still has its place. Ferroseed has access to the ever useful Spikes, and can do it pretty well. It hard walls Kabutops while Iron Barbs+Life Orb will chip away at Kabu's HP as it spins. Cryogonal and Sandslash are also hard pressed to beat the seed, and Gyro Ball is strong and beats Cryo while because of a shitty Speed stat, it will almost always pack 150 Power, making up for the low Speed stat. SR, T-Wave, and Leech Seed are all pretty good support options as well and can benefit some teams. In a nutshell, while Roselia is better because of greater Special Defense and being a better check to things like Omastar, Sceptile, and Galvantula, Ferroseed is still a pretty solid low B-Rank Pokemon.

I'm not too sure if Kanga deserves A. She's pretty strong yeah and Scrappy is cool too. She's also quite bulky. However, I never actually used Kanga, so I oughtta go and test her out before I can say anything about her.

EDIT: I do believe Gorebyss and Huntail deserve a place on the listing. Shell Smash, although they do receive competition from Omastar and Carracosta in this regard, is enough to justify their place on the list.
 
Sorry for the double post.

Anyways, I'm going to nominate Victreebel for C-Rank. I've actually used this thing on a sun team (along with Charizard and Mesprit, and the likes), but from experiences, with the sun support, Victreebel is such a vicious sun sweeper. Growth boosted Leaf Blade and Sludge Bomb hurt (and also break some common defensive cores like TanKing, mind), and Weather Ball is also really good, providing an attack in the sun so Ferroseed, Escavalier, Steelix, or just any Steel in general doesn't wall you. Victreebel is pretty darn fast under sun and its typing gives it resistance to common priority such as Aqua Jet and Mach Punch, despite its fraility. Although Victreebel is pretty worthless outside of Sun, and is slow otherwise and frail. Still, with sun support. Victreebel has potential to wreck and deserves to be at least C-Rank.

Mesprit, Bouffalant, and Braviary are all Top B-Rank imo. Mesprit has great stats all around, has a wide movepool, and can do a lot from CM sets to support, and her balanced overall stats and versatility are enough to make her worth using over her competition imo. Bouffalant is a great switch-in to common threats such as Sceptile, Lilligant, and Rotom-C and get an Attack boost plus its high Attack allowing it to hit really hard to blow holes in teams. Braviary is all about raw power, not to mention he has great STAB in Brave Bird plus good coverage move in Superpower. Defiant is incredibly useful as well so if Qwilfish tries to foolishly come in, yeah, Braviary becomes even more powerful. These are all worthy of Top B-Rank.
 
Durant is OHKO and 2HKO all metagame except Poliwrath and it's A?

EDIT: 252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Thunder Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 210-248 (54.68 - 64.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Blue Eon said:
Durant is OHKO and 2HKO all metagame except Poliwrath and it's A?
Click to expand...

1) Not true
2) Hustle makes many moves miss, having you use a stone miss - minus more accuracy for coverage.
Using swarm pushes an amount of the 2HKOs to 3HKOs, but I use swarm anyway.
 
Being able to 1/2HKO the metagame is not enough to make a pokemon S. Hustle's accuracy issue is pretty huge, as it makes Durant a very unreliable wall-breaker, as it has an 20% chance to miss a move with iron head / superpower / x-scissor, with rock slide's accuracy being even lower than that. To fix this reliability issue, you need to use Hone Claws, which although it does boost accuracy and its attack stat, this requires a turn of set-up, which durant often can't acquire due to its awful special defense. Another issue is that it is quite easy to revenge kill-any strong special attack can kill durant, with even resisted hits dealing heavy damage. Durant also doesn't 1HKO or 2HKO the whole metagame-it can't 1HKO moltres, aggron, slowking and nidoqueen all in the same set if running Hone Claws i.e. it can't run rock slide / superpower / x-scissor / iron head all on the same set. It's also pretty much straight up walled by poliwrath and qwilfish unless you run thunder fang(which means you miss out on something else important).

TL;DR: Unreliable without Hone Claws, doesn't 1 or 2HKO the entire metagame, and is relatively easy to revenge kill since anything with a decently powerful special move can 1HKO Durant. That's no to say durant is bad-it does do extremely well against a vast majority of the metagame, and after a HC can wall-break extremely easily, and it also has excellent speed for a sweeper and can tank most common priority moves very easily. But due to the flaws listed above, Durant should stay where it is atm.

Also despite Durant's high attack with Hustle, its moves have fairly low BP which means that it has around the same power output as primeape with Close Combat.
 
Ok, i've updated the ranks once again, i might be making some more changes in the next few hours ago, but here are the changes i've officially made so far.

Updates said:
Added Scyther to low B rank

Added Ferroseed to low B rank

Added Duosion to Untested

Added Golem to Untested

Added Gorebyss to Untested

Added Golduck to Untested

Added Leafeon to Untested

Added Musharna to top B rank

Added Victreebel to C rank
Click to expand...

I'll post with some of my comments on the ranks and my opinions on some of the current proposed changes i havent implemented just yet in a bit, i would've added this to my original, unedited post, but i accidentally hit the post button before i finished the whole thing, lol.
 
I would add Duosion to either high D, or low C rank.
I have found a place for him on my teams. Trick room teams that are uncannily weak to grass and electric, and hail teams very occasionally. That is pretty much it, and most of the time it gets replaced on those teams over team. However on my massive success of a hail room team (yeah right lol) it was an mvp!
"Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the RU metagame, but are decent enough to justify their use on some teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that."

This appears to fit Duosion very well. It is good at setting up trick room, and tanking a few hits as it does so. However, Musharna gives it competition with a higher HP stat and leftovers recovery!
 
I don't think golem deserves a spot on the list. Rhydon is a better pokemon overall because of its higher stats. Even though Golem can run an effective lead set, crustle is a better lead because it has access to spikes. All golem has over crustle are explosion and sucker punch. If it is added, I would say D-Rank is the appropriate tier for. It has a small niche of being able to setup SR and sucker punch before it dies, but it is outclassed/useless in other areas.
 
Magcargo 2 said:
I don't think golem deserves a spot on the list. Rhydon is a better pokemon overall because of its higher stats. Even though Golem can run an effective lead set, crustle is a better lead because it has access to spikes. All golem has over crustle are explosion and sucker punch. If it is added, I would say D-Rank is the appropriate tier for. It has a small niche of being able to setup SR and sucker punch before it dies, but it is outclassed/useless in other areas.
Click to expand...

"C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the RU metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in RU. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon."

I would argue that Golem fits under this category, facing lots of competition. I don't think it belongs in D rank because it can run an effective lead set in RU.
 
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