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Lower Tiers The RU Viability Ranking Thread

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I'll also throw in my responses.

Crawdaunt from my experiences is actually a pretty lethal Pokemon, because its STAB combo has great coverage that is only walled by Ferroseed and Poliwrath; Crawdaunt also hits like a damn nuke because of Adaptability, so it has 160 Power STABs coming off of an insane Attack stat making it a force to be reckoned with. Once it sets up there is almost nothing that can stop it from wrecking shit. I can see Low B looking pretty good because it's pretty good, but needs more support than an A or S-rank threat to bring out full potential (and with Sub you can use Alomomola as setup bait, sweet)

Dusknoir really needs to stay in Mid D. Adding on to what EonX said, I'll give a long description as to why Dusknoir doesn't do well in the current RU metagame. One of Dusknoir's main problems is that while 100 Attack might make Dusknoir look pretty decent at a glance, that stat is actually very deceptive; Dusknoir has a really weak STAB move with 60 Base Power, which is so weak that it can't even OHKO the frail Azelf without any Attack investment (I know Azelf isn't RU, but he's a good example because he's frail and is weak to Ghost), and none of its moves exceed 75 BP either except EQ, so Dusknoir will struggle to deal any damage. While Dusknoir's defenses are really good, it has pitiful HP (at least Dusclops in UU has far greater defenses with like 256 Defenses apiece, so it can actually wall well), so it's prone to getting 2HKO'd and stuff while Dusknoir lacks any reliable recovery outside of Pain Split, which is rather unreliable. Dusknoir is also really slow, so it has to take a lot of damage before doing what it needs to. Misdreavus and Spiritomb are much better defensively; Misdreavus as as much bulk as Dusknoir while having much better special bulk as well, while it can also support its team with Heal Bell and also have a decently powerful Shadow Ball. Spiritomb is also much better because of its lack of weaknesses, and it trades a Bug resistance for an immunity to Psychic moves as well as useful moves in Sucker Punch, Pursuit, and Foul Play. Offensively, Golurk has a much higher Attack and Iron Fist so it hits a lot harder, while Rotom has more Speed and better power. Dusknoir is simply outclassed and should stay in D; really TR teams are the only place for Dusknoir.

As for Butterfree, SV did a good job at explaining its place in RU.

SilentVerse said:
Nah, Butterfree imo is a Pokemon that's solidly C rank. Quiver Dance isn't outclassed at all really; Tinted Lens Bug Buzz gives Butterfree a huge niche over Lilligant, since it means that Butterfree has virtually perfect neutral coverage with just that move, as the only common Pokemon in RU that resist Tinted Lens Bug Buzz is like, Emboar and Moltres This means that Butterfree can actually be more difficult to wall than Lilligant in certain circumstances, as Lilligant will always have a slew of hard counters depending on its Hidden Power, while Butterfree is only walled by Emboar, Moltres, and stuff like Clefable, which Lilligant can have a lot of issues beating as well. While Butterfree is definitely a lot frailer and has a devastating weakness to Stealth Rock, the fact that it can run Substitute in the last slot does help make it harder to revenge kill, and the presence of weak defensive Pokemon like Uxie / Amoonguss / Tangrowth and its access to Sleep Powder gives it some nice set up opportunities. Granted, it does require quite a bit of support to work effectively, but it definitely has a solid niche in RU and can be very strong given the right support, so low / mid C rank is probably the best place for it.
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I'm not sure on Rotom, although I love the SubSplit set, works well with Spikes support from Scolipede.

Ninjask is another one I'm not sure about, I haven't used it so...
 
I guess I'll post since I used Klinklang a bit and have a strong opinion on it. Apparently my experiences with it were much different than everyone else's (it felt like a Top C / Low B Rank mon to me), but I'm going to support it staying in Mid B Rank. Klinklang is pretty good against hail because it resists Blizzard and Gear Grind is great vs Snover and SubProtect users, but against other teams, it was pretty useless for me. It definitely has a severe case of 4mss, and has way too many checks and counters to be considered as a near-A Rank threat. Most non-hail teams have at least 2 checks or a counter, but I'm not going to list them all because there's a lot. The biggest problems I ran into were Qwilfish and stuff like Emboar, because I didn't have time to set up both a Substitute and Shift Gear. I usually had to choose between one or the other, unless I ran Wild Charge over Substitute in which case I got screwed by status or something lol. I just haven't seen Klinklang be really effective, so I think that the highest it should be is Mid B.

I also disagree with all of Magcargo2's nominations. Feeling lazy atm and since some people have already posted and I discussed most of these mons in previous posts, I'm not going to elaborate much. tl;dr: Crawdaunt isn't too effective in this meta, Dusknoir is outclassed (I guess it could be top D if you're picky...), Butterfree is fine in low C, Rotom is really frail and has limited coverage so it should be moved down if anything, and Ferroseed is fine in mid B.
 
Because a lot of people seem to want Crawdaunt to Low B, I'm going to have to disagree. Crawdaunt, even with maximum speed, is still pretty slow. Even after a boost you are still slower than a lot of Pokemon, including Accelgor, Aerodactyl, Sceptile, Scolipede, Cinccino, Archeops, Galvantula, and pretty much anything with anything having a not terrible a speed stat with a Choice Scarf, all of whom can, other than Aerodactyl, outspeed and OHKO it after it boosts. Crawdaunt also comes with a rather mediocre bulk, especially on the special side where any neutral attack (or even resisted attacks like Fire Blast) are probably going to kill it. Some walls that it would otherwise be able to set up on can invest in speed and Taunt it to render it unable to set up (namely Qwilfish) But really, Crawduant isn't very good at the moment because its rather hard to set up and easy to stop due to its slowness, frailty, lack of resistances, and the resistances don't help it too much when Fire-types will 2HKO any Crawdaunt with their STAB alone, which isn't a very good quality for a sweeper. Keep that thing in High C.

I'm not going to go into Klinklang, but I have no idea what people see in it that makes it so great and I agree with Dittocrow completely (I also feel like its more of a Low B mon)
 
Yeah, some of my explanations were incorrect (Mainly because it was 1:00 when I was posting this), so I'll elaborate.

For Crawdaunt, what I should have stated was that it is the strongest DD user in the tier thanks to its sky high attack and adaptability. Most of the things that can outspeed and revenge kill it will lose to Crawdaunt if it has a Substitute up. I agree that Crawdaunt fragility and Low Speed prevents it from setting up at times, but its sheer power make it seem low B-Rank worthy imo, although High C-Rank is fine due to the reasons Dcae and Swamp Rocket have previously stated.

As for Dusknoir, SD Lum Kabutops cannot beat it even if Stealth Rock is on the foe's side of the field and Kabutops has an SD boost (LO Kabutops has a chance of beating Dusknoir if SR is up and Kabutops has Swords Dance boost). Dusknoir can then wear it down to the point where faster pokemon can revenge kill it. Don't get me wrong; I am not saying Dusknoir is good. I am just saying that it is just as viable as Flareon and vileplume.

I may have been giving Butterfree a bit less credit than it deserves, but it requires a gigantic amount of support to be successful. Once Sleep Clause is activated, literally anything that can tank a +1 Bug Buzz from Butterfree can be considered a check to it thanks to its horrible defenses and 4x weakness to Stealth Rock. However, I agree with all of Silentverse and Celever's points, so I guess Low C-Rank is fine.

Rotom-N is pretty amazing in the current metagame. The Subsplit set has the power to 2HKO most of the tier after Stealth Rock damage and Rotom-N can regain most of its health by using Pain Split on bulky special walls like Lanturn. The Choice Scarf set is pretty good too since it has the potential to cripple all of its counters with Trick (Except for Magneton). Rotom-N is also the best offensive spinblocker and has the ability to outspeed base 90s, like Dcae said. Despite its fragility and limited coverage, Rotom-N is an amazing pokemon and worthy of Mid A-Rank IMO.

Ferroseed is a pretty useful pokemon thanks to its wide array of support moves, especially Spikes. Ferroseed is a very unique Spiker since Kabutops cannot beat it unless it carries Superpower and the damage from Leech Seed, Iron Barbs and Life Orb will eventually wear Kabutops down to the point where it becomes dead weight. Ferroseed can also beat several top tier threats like Druddigon, Slowking lacking Fire Blast and Rotom-C. If Roselia is Top B-rank, then I see no reason why Ferroseed shouldn't be Top B-Rank.

Again, I apologize for the confusing info I previously stated.
 
Hmmmmmm, thinking about it for a little bit does anyone think that Lanturn could afford to move down to low B rank, or do you guys think mid B rank is fine? Of course, Lanturn is a pretty cool defensive Water-type and pivot, having quite a bit of bulk going for it, as well as quite a few nice resistances, Heal Bell, and access to a slow Volt Switch to help get teammates in easily, but idk, i oftentimes find myself regretting using Lanturn in the end because of a few flaws. For one thing, While Lanturn might be able to check and counter various threats, including the dreaded Moltres, its lack of reliable recovery means it'll end up getting quickly worn down as the match goes on, especially if its switching in and out a lot because of Volt Switch and hazards are up, oftentimes meaning Lanturn might end up KO'd before the threats its there to check and counter are eliminated or weakened. This is especially troubling against Hail Teams, as even though Lanturn can take repeated Blizzards, the hail damage cancels out Lanturn's leftovers, making it even easier to wear down (i've even beaten Lanturn with things like Subsplit Rotom-F because of this before >_>). Lanturn can use Restalk to get around this to some extent, but then it struggles heavily with four moveslot syndrome, and has trouble using Volt Switch effectively as switching resets the sleep counter, reducing its utility as a pivot at a bit. Lanturn also struggles with being somewhat weak, base 76 Special Attack isn't anything special, and because Lanturn often can't afford to invest that much, i often find it has trouble doing enough damage when it really needs to, and can even be exploited by dangerous Pokemon such as Sceptile and Lilligant! such as when its a last Pokemon or if it needs to damage a switchin, crippling things with Thunder Wave and Scald burns help out a little bit with this though. Its also important to note that while Lanturn indeed provides a nice check to Electric-types such as Manectric, one of the most threatening and common Electric-types in the tier (Rotom-C) can simply Eliminate Lanturn with a Leaf Storm, making using it as your only check to Electric-types a bit more risky, especially with the lack of an offensive presence and all. All in all, Lanturn is still a cool Pokemon when its needed, but i don't feel like its as good in the current metagame because of its flaws, and i often find myself using other Pokemon before it unless i absolutely need Lanturn's combination of resistances, so i think it might fit better in Low B rank, feel free to disagree though :s.
 
lol I thought Lanturn was C rank, she deserves to go that low IMO. She has good H but lackluster offensive, defensive and speed stats. I have found anturn effective on one type of team -- rain, and that is because of the electric immunity and ability to spam 100% STAB Thunder but even then I found it lackluster. I want to propose Lanturn to Top C since I can see it would have uses but it is still really ineffective in this metagame, especially a metagame overgrown with grass types (hehe geddit?) which resist the only attacks a Lanturn wold logically use (besides Signal beam I suppose... that could be a pretty neat lure actually) and hit lanturn back with their SE STAB. Not to mention HP Ground is getting more popular as of late.
 
Magcargo 2 said:
As for Dusknoir, SD Lum Kabutops cannot beat it even if Stealth Rock is on the foe's side of the field and Kabutops has an SD boost (LO Kabutops has a chance of beating Dusknoir if SR is up and Kabutops has Swords Dance boost). Dusknoir can then wear it down to the point where faster pokemon can revenge kill it. Don't get me wrong; I am not saying Dusknoir is good. I am just saying that it is just as viable as Flareon and vileplume.
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Not to rub it in, but even though Spiritomb succumbs to SDTops, can't it wear down Tops with Sucker Punch in the same manner Dusknoir tanks a hit and strikes back? (While Tops' Aqua Jet negates Sucker Punch, it is at risk of +2 Foul Play which can KO it outright, so Tops has to be careful about spamming Aqua Jet.) They both achieve the same goal: land chip damage on Tops so a faster sweeper (that isn't wrecked by Aqua Jet) can kill Tops to prevent/delay the Spin. It has already been mentioned, but everything Dusknoir does, something already can accomplish or even do it better.
 
Yeah I'd be cool with dropping Lanturn to Low B tbh. It has those really nice qualities such as the resistances, bulk, and the ability to support its team. That said, Lanturn does have plenty of flaws. As said, its lack of reliable recovery means it has a lot of issues regarding being worn down over time. The other thing that makes Lanturn worse in this meta imo is that being the ultimate Moltres check is not that important in this meta because Moltres is imo worse in Queenless meta (because its typing is a lot more of a crutch against it). Lanturn is also weak as shit so it's massive setup fodder; it's bait for Lilligant and Sceptile, two very scary Pokemon in the tier, while it gets set up on by plenty of setup mons such as SubCM Mesprit (Most Lanturns I've faced, I've used as bait for Mesprit to set up a Sub and at least three CMs, lol). RD is cool but there are other cool mons out there such as Rotom-C and Mesprit to set up Rain. I'd support dropping it down.
 
ninetimesnine said:
I don't play RU but move Durant to S rank, it rapes in UU.
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Not that I necessarily oppose Durant to S rank, but viability in one tier has little implication about viability in another tier. That comment was really unrelated and useless. I would like to hear some Durant discussion, however, so thanks for that.
 
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Lanturn: The HP Ground argument is pretty useless considering Lanturn doesn't even get 3HKOed by Scarf Manectric's HP Grass. That said, I do agree with Molk on its move down to Low B. As someone who has used Lanturn pretty consistently over the past year or so, I can attest to its effectiveness lowering as Grass-types have become more popular. Lanturn's biggest calling card is its ability to fit onto offensive teams despite the defensive approach due to Volt Switch which allows it to build momentum or keep from forfeiting momentum (something very few other defensive Pokemon can do) However, with the shift to more of a bulky offense metagame and physical Fire-types such as Emboar and Entei being preferred (generally) over the special Fire-types like Moltres and Typhlosion, Lanturn's viability has taken a pretty big blow. Add to this that Qwilfish and Alomomola have really risen as of late due to (Toxic) Spikes and Wish support respectively. Lanturn is still a cool Pokemon though. It's a solid support Pokemon and one of the few that can viably run a status move AND Heal Bell on the same set without suffering from major 4MSS, but its lack of offensive presence and inability to take many physical hits really shows in this metagame.

Durant: Hmmmm, Durant's kind of a mixed bag. I find it really hard to justify it moving up to S rank when the 2 most common Scarfers utterly destroy it (Rotom-C and Emboar) There's also the issue of it absolutely needing an HC boost to be a consistent threat due to Hustle dropping the base accuracy of all of its moves to 80% at best (equal to Stone Edge's accuracy...) Finally, it just misses out on Tauros (who commonly carries Fire Blast) and is outsped by Sceptile and Aerodactyl as well (who typically run Focus Blast and Fire Blast respectively) While I won't deny that it absolutely wrecks shit with a boost and leaves you helpless (for the most part) if you lack something faster than it, I just find it really difficult to justify it moving up to S rank when some of the most common/most effective Pokemon handle it with relative ease, thus limiting the amount of damage it can do in one match. It's certainly a Top A threat, but I just don't think it's quite good enough for S rank status.
 
I am inclined to agree with everyone about Lanturn so far, it just doesn't have the stats to be both a team supporter while having the offensive presence to prevent set up (try the specs set though, its super fun).

As for Durant I also agree that it should stay high A after some thought, because although it has an amazing speed stat, trolling Galvantula, and gets quite a few set up chances due to its excellent typing and nice 58/112 physical defense. It has major 4mss struggling to get past all of Steelix, Emoar, Poliwrath, and Moltres, while still being revengable by all scarfers. I just thought it deserved some discussion :).
 
Hi guys, I don't post here ever but I've been playing a lot of RU lately and I think there is one Pokemon here that is way to low.

I'd like to nominate Eelektross for Low B rank. It has a really good matchup against Hail teams, with Giga Drain to break Walreins Subs and heal up in the process. Flamethrower for Rotom-F/Glaceon/Snover/Escavelier. Volt Switch or Thunderbolt to either get momentum ot hit Slowking really hard.

Eel also has Superpower to OHKO Aggron and hit normal types hard! In RU there are only a few really safe switchins to Eelektross. Druddigon, Uxie, and Gallade are pretty safe, but nearly everything else can't switch into an Expert Belt set. Eel has found its way onto a lot of my teams now because of well it wrecks common cores and hail teams. That alone is enough to warrant Low B imo.
 
I'll respond to the two proposals I have yet to.

Durant: I agree with the consensus here. Durant is undeniably a really scary mon, which definitely warrants it a spot among the best of the A-Rank mons. However, it has some pretty big flaws that prevent it from being S-Rank. Firstly, it's so hard to get a Hone Claws boost, because Durant is so frail, especially on the special side, which means it can die while setting up. Fire-type moves are also becoming common in this meta, and Durant hates Fire-type moves. Plus, if Durant doesn't set up, it misses a lot. One miss could easily cost Durant its life, because it is so frail; if it can't land a hit, it's fucked. Durant also has major 4MSS, so it won't fit all of its moves in. Don't get me wrong, Durant is very solid; but an S-Rank threat has to be more than solid; they have to be dominant, and Durant isn't.

Eelektross: I'd be cool with Low B for Eel. Eelektross has awesome coverage and no weaknesses, so it has a lot of things going for it. Raseri hit spot on about what Eel has going for it, and a slow Volt Switch is also really awesome, so Eelektross is a great pivot; its slow Volt Switch is awesome to make things like Zangoose grab a Toxic Boost and proceed to destroy everything. Eelektross can also be a great bulky sweeper with Coil, and although Golurk walls it it's still pretty effective. Definitely move it up imo.
 
Because my last two post had rather ridiculous content and proposals (Except the Rotom proposal, that was pretty reasonable), I am going to add more reasonable content and make more reasonable proposals.

I propose that Cacturne is moved up to Low B-Rank as, it has many unique that make it worthy of an upgrade. Cacturne has an amazing typing, being immune to Water and Psychic, as well as resisting Electric, Dark, Ghost, Grass and Ground. This allows Cacturne to set up Spikes against foes such as Rotom, Slowking and Alomomola It also has a powerful Sucker Punch to migate its low speed and revenge kill pokemon such as the Sigilyph, weakened Cinncino and Aerodactyl. Because of the mind games that Cacturne plays with Sucker Punch, as well as the aforementioned resistances, it can often find time to set up a Substitute. While Carturne does indeed have Abysmal Speed and Defenses, it amazing power, typing and access to Spikes make him worthy of LoW B-Rank.

I also propose that Gallade is moved up to Low S-Rank. Gallade has many unique traits going for it that make it worthy of S-Rank. First off, Gallade has an amazing base 125 attack stat, which is the second highest attack out of any fighting type in RU. Unlike other fighting-types, Gallade has the ability to beat every Ghost and Psychic-type not named Spiritomb thanks to Night Slash (it is actually powerful enough to 2HKO Uxie after an SD boost). Unlike other physical sweepers, Gallade also has the ability to act as a wall thanks to its unique support movepool, including options such as Wish Taunt and Will-o-Wisp. Despite being countered by the omnipresent Spiritomb, I think that Gallade's positive traits warrant it a spot in S-Rank.
 
Ok, time to cover stuff...again:

Eelektross: Didn't really use this much at all until about a day or two ago when its revamp got posted in C&C. Gotta say, it's pretty neat. It's really odd as an Electric-type as it has bulk, good power, but really low Speed. While this does leave it open to slower powerhouses such as Aggron and Gallade, this gives it great utility with a slow Volt Switch and makes it a really solid choice on VoltTurn teams. It doesn't have the Speed you commonly find on such teams, but it still has strong offensive presence and Volt Switch to keep momentum. Cool with the move to Low B.

Cacturne: This is something I really do want to try out, but I just haven't had the time to lately. I'll get back to you guys on this one.

Gallade: One of my favorite Pokemon atm, and I totally back this move. Gallade is one of the most versatile offensive Pokemon in the current metagame, but it can do much more than go on the offensive; it can wall quite effectively thanks to its unique typing and high base 115 Special Defense. Gallade's current offensive sets are really cool and you can pretty much fit one of them on your team depending on what type of team it is. Offensive SD is a fantastic addition to p. much any offensive team in need of a sweeper that can wallbreak as well if needed. Bulky SD is one of the most flexible sets in the game right now. It can tank hits, hit back hard, and sweep all in one set! Choice Band is a brutal wallbreaker capable of maiming p. much anything it touches with the right move while Bulk Up is a huge obstacle for Stall teams to overcome thanks to its initial special bulk and boosted physical bulk and power. There's also another set currently not on-site that I've been using and I've absolutely loved it. If you're curious about it, check in C&C ^.^ Gallade is also one of the best offensive responses to Hail teams as it has the special bulk to handle Scarfed Blizzards from Rotom-F and Glaceon and proceed to KO them with its Fighting STAB. Definitely back Low S.
 
Alright, guess its time to make a few changes, although there are some Pokemon i'm completely unsure about that i won't change the rank for yet, but remember that they're all still up for discussion even if i didn't make the change yet!

Changes Made said:
Lanturn down from mid B rank ----> low B rank
Eelektross up from top C rank ----> low B rank
Cacturne up from top C rank ----> low B rank

Changes in need of more discussion:

Gallade (strongly considering this at the moment, definitely a big threat)
Ferroseed
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I might edit this with a proposal of my own later, but i need to get my thoughts together
 
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WTF why did Cacturne move up immediately? That thing is not B rank. If you want swords dance Sucker Punch use Absol, I see no reason to use Cacturne defensively since this is a tier full of grass types so I assumed Cacturne was top C because it was a mix of the two, but that does not warrant B rank at all.

I am also against gallade, it can be used as a tank, defensive, set-up sweeper and that is p much it and on top of the the former 2 sets aren't that good... I can see people using it to great success but not S.
 
I used an offensive special cacturne and, as crazy as it sounds, it actually worked pretty well. Although you do miss Sucker Punch at times, in a general sense, it's a pretty massive middle finger to Slowking (although most of them have started to run fire blast; in the event you ever see specs slowking, if you can traipse around fire blast you instantly get a free turn) and it also fares well against a lot of mons used on hail teams; some (walrein, escavalier, slowking, qwilfish) cannot switch in to cacturne's STABs without risking a KO. Cacturne is also really good at luring Escavalier - pretty much nobody expects special at all; when cacturne suddenly OHKOes some cocksure Esca with HP Fire after it takes a dark pulse or spikes damage, the result is always pleasing.

Water Absorb is nice on occasion, too; outside of Slowking, it can be abused a bit against qwilfish (but paralysis really hurts cacturne).

EDIT: to be clearer, I ran a cacturne with a set of Dark Pulse / Giga Drain / HP Fire / Spikes; max speed / SpA modest was the spread that it ran and leftovers its item
 
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Celever said:
WTF why did Cacturne move up immediately? That thing is not B rank. If you want swords dance Sucker Punch use Absol, I see no reason to use Cacturne defensively since this is a tier full of grass types so I assumed Cacturne was top C because it was a mix of the two, but that does not warrant B rank at all.
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Uhhh you seem to have forgotten that the Shaqtus gets Spikes? Cacturne is actually a pretty good offensive spiker in the current metagame despite its fraility, being able to stack Spikes on forced switches caused by Sucker Punch, using its various resistances to switch in and grab free turns to set up Spikes, Pokemon such as Qwilfish and Lanturn are helpless to stop Cacturne from setting up spikes for example, and even threatening both of the spinners with Sucker Punch and Seed Bomb respectively, preserving its hazards its even completely immune to both of Slowking's STABs, which is a big plus (although Fire Blast still hurts) Regarding Swords Dance, Absol doesn't really pull it off that well in this meta imo, its too frail to really set up on anything. Also I'm not sure where you are getting defensive from, who would use a defensive set on a mon with 70/60/60 bulk? Either way, Cacturne definitely is not bad and fits well in that tier imo.
 
Celever said:
I am also against gallade, it can be used as a tank, defensive, set-up sweeper and that is p much it and on top of the the former 2 sets aren't that good... I can see people using it to great success but not S.
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I presume that when you say former two, you mean CB and Bulk Up. I'll admit those two aren't Gallade's best sets by a long shot, but just about every other S rank mon has a set or two that isn't nearly as effective as its main sets. SubCM Uxie, SubCM Entei, SpDef Druddigon, physical Sceptile, and Utility Rotom-C just to name a few. All of those Pokemon are S rank because of other, more effective sets, but they can still run those less effective sets to good success with the right support. Same with Gallade. Its best sets (imo) are Bulky SD, SpDef, and Sub+3 Attacks (not on-site, but check C&C for that one) but that doesn't mean it can't run Bulk Up or CB when given a little extra support. Offensive SD is very solid (better than BU and CB), but not as effective as Bulky SD imo since most teams have something that can take a single hit and take advantage of CC defense drops. The only thing that can switch into AND take out Gallade somewhat reliably is Spiritomb (Moltres gets wrecked by Psychic STAB) but even it has to look out for Will-O-Wisp from the SpDef set. I think a lot of the bad rap on Gallade is due to Shadow Sneak. When I did its analysis a year ago (give or take a little) it was a really solid move on Gallade since the metagame was much faster, but now its slower and more of a bulky offense driven meta which means Night Slash really gives Gallade a chance to shine. Through my experience, I truly believe that Gallade is worthy of S rank status and is arguably the 4th best Pokemon in the tier right now behind Slowking, Entei, and Druddigon.
 
Hmm, I am also not sure about Cacturne, as a Spiker, it is pretty much outclassed by everyone available in the tier (Qwilfish, Smeargle, Roselia, and Scolipede), while as a swords dancer/sucker puncher it is outclassed by Absol. As for a special attacking set, it does have a nice base 115 special attack, but I would much rather use Tangrowth as a slow grass type special attacker, as it has huge physical defense, regenerator, and sleep powder over it's Cactus rival. Cacturne also faces huge competition from Shiftry with the same typing, Nature Power, and better speed meaning it doesn't have to rely on sucker punch as much as Cacturne. The biggest niche Cacturne has is an offensive spike setter with priority to pick stuff off, I think high C fit Cacturne better, because although it is a pretty good mon, it faces a lot of competition for all of it's roles. I can see this either way tbh.

Gallade to S: yes please.

Edit: I might even consider Gallade for mid S, considering it has so many viable sets that do different things, but Gallade does them all well. Aside from the listed sets on smogon, Gallade can be a cool scarf user, a physical trick room setter that doesn't suck (lol Dusknoir) and more, allowing Gallade to play mind games with the opponent.
 
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[17:55] <%dcae> Molk whats your opinion of gallade to Low C/Mid C
[17:55] <%dcae> um
[17:55] <%dcae> Low S/Mid S
[17:55] <@Molk> lol C
[17:55] <%dcae> lol
[17:55] <@Molk> uhhhhhh i'm strongly considering it at the moment
[17:55] <@Molk> on one hand it should really be
[17:55] <+Dracoyoshi8> d rank imo
[17:55] <@Molk> harder to get a pokemon to move up to S
[17:55] <@Molk> and i dont think it should end up too overcrowded
[17:55] <@Molk> but on the other hand
[17:56] <@Molk> from my experience it may very well legitimately deserve it
[17:56] <Swamp-Rocket> there are 6 s ranks atm right?
[17:56] <%myzozoa> who makes you watch gardevoir r34
[17:56] <%dcae> yea
[17:56] <%dcae> the new set ive been running
[17:56] <@dtc> i find gallade pretty damn hard to switch into
[17:56] <%dcae> 3 attakcs LO
[17:56] <%myzozoa> too many d's
[17:56] <%dcae> it 2HKOs everything except spiritomb
[17:56] <+Dracoyoshi8> myzozoa: i search gallade
[17:56] <%dcae> after 2 spikes
[17:56] <@dtc> it's a pretty scary threat, but it does have issues switching in
[17:57] <+Dracoyoshi8> and see garde
[17:57] <%dcae> idk dtc
[17:57] <@dtc> i'd probably say mid S
[17:57] <+Dracoyoshi8> :p
[17:57] <%dcae> it can switch in ez on weak special moves
[17:57] <%dcae> due to titanic SpD
[17:57] <@Molk> 7 s ranks at the momenty
[17:57] <Swamp-Rocket> i've actually thought it should have been s a while ago
[17:57] <%dcae> but yea im thinking mid S fits it
[17:57] <@dtc> i wouldnt switch into special attacks
[17:57] <Swamp-Rocket> but i didn't ever post it
[17:57] <@Molk> slowking/drudd/entei/escav/rotom-c/sceptile/uxie
[17:57] <%dcae> tbh i dont feel rotom c deserves it
[17:58] <Swamp-Rocket> tbh i actually don't feel like uxie deserves it for some reason
[17:58] <@dtc> the special bulk is nice for making it harder to revenge gallade though
[17:58] <%dcae> it just isnt up to the domination of the other mons
[17:58] <%dcae> idk about uxie it has a lot of shit it can do
[17:58] <%dcae> and effectively
[17:58] <@Molk> uxie is there for
[17:58] <%dcae> but rotom C is realy the odd one out
[17:58] <%dcae> IMO
[17:58] <@Molk> the huge amount of support options and bulk it has
[17:58] <%dcae> yea uxie is fine a
[17:58] <%dcae> S*
[17:58] <@Molk> as well for the possible ability to sweep
[17:58] <@Molk> i'd be fine with moving rotom-c down although

[17:58] <@Molk> i'd be fine with moving rotom-c down although
[17:58] <@Molk> i really like it as a mon
[17:59] <@Molk> and its infuriating to face at times
[17:59] <Swamp-Rocket> tbh me too
[17:59] <%breh> molk
[17:59] <Swamp-Rocket> gallade and rotom-c could trade spots
[17:59] <%dcae> im logging in fine
[17:59] <%breh> out of curiosity why is sceptile top
[17:59] <Swamp-Rocket> its mid
[17:59] <@dtc> i don't think rotom-c is that great molk
[17:59] <@dtc> top A sounds fine for it

[18:00] <%dcae> so heres my overall opinion
[18:00] <%dcae> drop rotom c to top a
[18:00] <Swamp-Rocket> also the special version on its own
[18:00] <%dcae> drop uxie to low s
[18:00] <Swamp-Rocket> is very solid
[18:00] <%dcae> and boost gallade to mid s
[18:01] <%dcae> because gallade is just that good
[18:01] <%dcae> opinions?
[18:01] <Swamp-Rocket> i would agree with that
[18:01] <@Molk> i'd agree with that
[18:01] <@Molk> although gallade might be better off in low we'll see

[18:08] <Swamp-Rocket> EDIT: Yeah I forgot to say, I'm saying Low C for now, Mid C if it gets more support.

So as summarized in the logs, my proposed moves are Rotom-C to drop down to Top A rank, Uxie to Low S, and Gallade to Mid S. My reasoning for Gallade can be found in the last post. Now, for Rotom-C, I believe that compared to the other S rank mons, it just isn't at the same level. It can run a couple sets pretty effectively, but it just isn't at the level of of the other mons. The others either define RU or a certain playstyle, and while Rotom-C is huge for Volturn teams, I just don't feel it is an S rank mon by the definition. When you look at it, it really fits the A rank definition more, because Rotom-C has flaws that prevent it from being ultra dominant.

Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the RU metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively, but still perform less consistently than the average S rank Pokemon. A rank Pokemon have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.
Click to expand...

Those flaws include not being able to do much against bulkier mons, ie Druddigon, due to its Special Attack being barely above par, and it really lacks of coverage. This prevents it from being extremely good. However, it's still a top mon, which is why Top A is the fit for it.

Uxie is a more arguable decision. Uxie has an incredible amount of good sets, mostly support. To name some, there is the standard Rocks setter, Dual Screens, and SubCM. Despite pro bulk, I feel Uxie just lacks offensive presence to go with its support sets. Thus, it ends up as set-up bait for certain mons. Personally speaking, I always use Mesprit as an Stealth Rock setter over Uxie purely because Mesprit can use 105 stats to actually dish out the hurt to opponents mons. It can even beat standard offensive Escavalier with the correct set. This is one major downfall of Uxie's. Another one is that with the omnipresence of Spiritomb in this meta and Pursuit users in general, SubCM isn't that effective anymore. Overall, Uxie is still an amazing support mon, but it just isn't mid S material anymore.
 
I'll respond here.

Gallade: I'm hopping on the bandwagon here and supporting this for S-Rank (any spot in S is fine by me). This thing is pretty fucking amazing in this meta, both variants of SD as well as BU are very threatening sets, and it's a very versatile offensive threat overall (seriously it can also run an amazing SpD set, sweet!). This thing doesn't have a large number of counters in the tier bar maybe Spiritomb, and Gallade is pretty much the reason hail teams have to run Spiritomb on their team to be able to succeed (and on other slower teams too). I think this thing is a top threat and is S-Rank for sure.

Rotom-C: I can agree here. While Rotom-C definitely has an honor shared with Emboar as one of the two premier Scarfers (and hence revenge killers) in the tier, there are some flaws that hold Rotom-C back. Rotom-C has some nice versatility, and can revenge kill, wallbreak, or support its team with WoW, T-Wave, and Rain Dance, and Volt Switch makes it a nice pivot, but its lacking coverage is kind of a detriment; Rotom-C is walled pretty easily by threats such as Druddigon and Ferroseed, while it kinda lacks power when you need it. It's still nice as a revenge killer and an excellent game plan against Smeargle teams (if you're weak to them), but I can see the arguments for Top A; although keeping it in Low S is something I'm not opposed to either.

Uxie: I'm not opposed to this one. I often find it relatively easy to take advantage of Uxie's presence because of its terrible offensive presence (seriously this thing is so weak), and I've often used it as setup fodder for mons such as Mesprit and Klinklang (I usually get a Sub up and grab as many boosts as I want, lol). Uxie is really hindered by the presence of Pursuit trappers in this metagame; Absol, Spiritomb, and Escavalier are very prominent in this meta, and a Pursuit weakness plus the meh damage output is pretty bad. I also usually prefer Mesprit as a Psychic-type because it hits harder (plus it's much more adorable :), and is my fave mon). Either way, Dcae basically hit it spot on, so I'm definitely not opposed to this.

My proposal for now is to drop Sandslash to Mid or Low D-Rank. I'm sorry Sandslash users, but this Pokemon is simply terribly mediocre in this metagame. It very rarely gets a chance to spin; and most times I've never seen a Sandslash accomplish much of anything, and its chances to spin are very low. Sandslash loses to most spinblockers one-on-one, denying it the spin. If you run SD+Lum to beat them, you're losing the bulk, taking more damage, and still denied the spin. Even if Sandslash does beat spinblockers, it will often be too weak and it's too slow to spin; and many teams have a way to threaten Sandslash and stop it from spinning; and if it does spin, you can still preserve the hazard setter to come back in and set up hazards later. Sure, you can use Pursuit support; but that's not a good thing in Sandslash's case; the other two spinners, Kabutops and Cryogonal, have a much better chance at spinning because they actually beat various spinblockers one-on-one, and have enough Speed or bulk to be able to spin. Even Hitmonchan at least has Foresight, even though it's still a sucky spinner. The D-Rank definition implies that its Pokemon offer a very low reward in comparison to higher ranked Pokemon; and Sandslash fits that to a T: the effort needed to make it into something decent is simply too much, and it offers a low reward in comparison to Kabutops and Cryogonal.
 
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