The Smogon "Suspect Test" Ladder is in full effect! "mark 2"

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Jumpman16

Jumpman16

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Ok, let's try this again. The last thread was utterly derailed by people who honestly don't understand what we're doing here. Allow us to be more clear.

chaos said:
...nobody understands that its a TEST. The discussion thread should be about experiences with testing the new metagame, not theorymon on why Garchomp should/should not be banned. Etc.
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Nobody has banned anything yet, lol. Over a dozen posts in the old thread were to the effect of "wow y ban garchomp, it's not that hard 2 stop" even after I explicitly warned people not to post stuff like that, and the sad part is that I am not even exaggerating (most of those posts were deleted). Right now, the Suspect Ladder is deviod of Garchomp and Deoxys-S, because both pokemon are Suspects. I have defined suspect as:


Any Pokémon, move or clause that respectively may benefit competitive standard or uber battle if moved or implemented elsewhere.


This statement applies to Pokémon, moves like Double Team and Stealth Rock, and Clauses like Species Clause and Evasion Clause. The Suspect Pokémon right now, by both popular and astute observation are: Garchomp, Deoxys-S, Manaphy, Mew, Darkrai, Latios and Latias. Right now, we are first analyzing the removal of Garchomp and Deoxys-S from standard play. We will play a "Suspect-Free" metagame for around a month, to see if any other pokemon reveal themselves as Suspects in this time period. After that, we are going to let those of you who achieve a certain rating (with a certain deviation) vote after these month-long tests on whether or not you feel the Suspect belongs where it does.

So, after determining what other Suspects there are besides, the aim of the Suspect Test Ladder is simple and is outlined in my Order of Operations thread and pasted below for convenience:


Stage 1: Analysis of a single Suspect in August 2008's standard metagame (since Garchomp and Deoxys-S are definitely suspects, this is all the wording that's needed)

Stage 2: Our assessment of Uber or OU for any Suspect's impact on a suspect-free August 2008 metagame, following the respective Suspect's completion of Stage 1.

Stage 3: Analysis of all the Suspects in July 2008's standard metagame with the knowledge of which are considered Uber and OU in the Suspect-free August-2008 metagame.


It's really straightforward when you think about it, or at the very least read my posts. Anyway, again, this threads serves to document your experiences with the Suspect Test Ladder. There is no way any of us can know if x pokemon is a Suspect until a considerable amount of time played on a "Suspect-free" ladder, so any such suggestions will have to be at least backed up with experience. I have seen that pokemon like Jirachi and Raikou have had an easier time sweeping without the threat of a pokemon with 130 base attack and a STAB EQ, with a Scarf or not ever looming. We still need quite a bit of time to determine whether this makes either of them Suspects, though. At the very least, this may necessitate the reconsideration of—and "remind" "us" of—Blissey with Seismic Toss as an option, but we will have to wait and see.

So finally, this thread isn't for theorymon, though: it is for questions, concerns, and comments about the Suspect Test process and experience you may have, after you have read this post and my threads in Policy Review about the process and how we will be better able to determine what is "uber" and what is not shortly.
 
I hope no one messes up a perfectly fine thread like last time :/

Anyway, time for my status report ;)

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  • Stall teams. Are they still as powerful when this ladder first came out? This is actually debatable but from my own experience, I will have to say no. Magnezone is now on almost every team because of 2 reasons. Garchomp can no longer threaten it and Salamence (who it combos perfectly with) has replaced garchomp on every team. Magnezone takes apart the opponent's spiker like Skarmory or Forretress, as well as their big bulky Pokemon such as Jirachi.
  • Speaking of Jirachi, Jabba told me of an awesome Jirachi set rhat I am now seeing a lot more then before. Calm Mind / Grass Knot / Thunderbolt / Psychic is now getting a lot more common without Garchomp. Magnezone and Dugtrio seem to be getting more popular to stop this
  • Starmie is also much more common, being able to take on Stall / Offensive teams. Starmie actually was able to take care of Garchomp to an extent thanks to being able to get rid of its Yache Berry. However, it is much more common
  • A few more Pokemon like Nidoqueen are becoming very common, mainly for the fact that they do not need to worry about Garchomp countering it. In fact, Nidoqueen is the perfect counter for Lucario (the other main offensive sweeper). Nidoqueen also seems to take care of Magnezone fairly well.
So that is my status report as of now, definitely will update when I see more changes in the metagame.
 
I think it would be a good idea to let us know what rating must be achieved to be able to vote; it'll let those of us who don't play Shoddy 24/7 have an idea of what we need to shoot for.
 
Just tossing in my 2 cents:

- Starts of a battle are boring. Taunt, Hypnosis or Stealth Rock, can't go wrong. Seriously, Stealth Rock is getting out of hand.
- Salamence and Dragonite are suddenly a lot more powerful. However, its easier to counter either of those as it is to counter Garchomp.
- Stuff like Calm Mind Jirachi seems to pop up left and right to better results now.
- Flygon is a crap Garchomp "replacement".
- More and more Pokemon in the base 90/95 speed seem to pop up. Houndoom, PorygonZ, those kind of Pokemon. Particulary scarfed.
- I haven't seen many Bronzong as compared to regular OU. Not that I mind.
- Lucario is evil. Evil I tell you.

So yeah, my opinion won't weigh heavily, since my rating is only mediocre. But just my few cents.
All in all, I do enjoy this play much more.
 
Those "suicide leads" that lay Stealth Rock and die (can't effectively set up screens anymore, since Deoxys is gone) don't usually cause me any type of trouble, as SR really hasn't been that bothersome to me, and my lead is equipped to deal with most of the Baton Passers that like to come in afterwards, at least before Deoxys was banned.

I will say this, though. It no longer seems as if I'm battling the same exact team every time I play. I didn't make a new team, though. I just stuck with 5 of the same pokemon I was using before, tweaked a few EVs and movesets here and there, and seem to be doing ok.
 
What I noticed right off the bat is the ability to run slower balanced teams rather than having to sacrifice a bit of defense in order to pack a couple slots that could outspeed Chomp. I believe this allows for much more creativity. I've been all over the map with the teams I've been making, but each one of them seems to be able to compete remarkably well. So far it seems like almost every type of team is viable. Stall, Balanced, Offensive. You can really do whatever you want with almost whatever Pokemon you want.

Steel type sweepers also gained a huge boost, most notably Life Orb Heatran and Calm Mind Jirachi. Before they could barely get anywhere before being forced to switch out by Chomp. Now they can run wild over teams unprepared for them without the threat of Chomp coming in for a free turn.

I think Stall got one of the biggest boosts. Stall was extremely viable before, but as anyone that runs stall knows, if SD Yache Chomp comes out before Tspikes are down, you WILL lose a Pokemon. There are still general problem Pokemon for most stall teams (Stone Edge Lucario comes to mind - most well built stall teams opt not to use Gliscor) and the simple fact is most people don't have the patience to play stall, so I don't really see it becoming an overwhelming strategy.

Also I've seen a large increase in Curseperts (hell I've started to use it on most of my new teams). However I don't really see why no Chomp/D-S would cause that other than it being a pretty solid partner for steel type sweepers like Jirachi.

That's it for now!
 
Lou Cypher said:
- Starts of a battle are boring. Taunt, Hypnosis or Stealth Rock, can't go wrong. Seriously, Stealth Rock is getting out of hand.
Click to expand...


This was already happening before the suspect test ladder was created. Bronzong, Azelf, Deoxys & a few more set-up leads were already ridiculously common anyways. Removing Garchomp and Deoxys from the game hasn't made Taunt, Hypnosis and Stealth Rock more popular leading moves. The metagame had shifted that direction over the last couple of months anyways.
 
Well, I'd say the newly-common indirect leads are a product of just too many people running leads with setup moves, and Stealth Rock and Taunt just being the most effective setup moves for a lead as well as good ways to screw with enemy setup leads. A simple, fast offensive Pokemon shuts many screw-around leads right down, so I think the flood of such leads is due to there simply not being that many offensive starters - it doesn't have much to do with the removal of Garchomp or Deoxys-E, I think.
 
KD24 said:
  • Starmie is also much more common, being able to take on Stall / Offensive teams. Starmie actually was able to take care of Garchomp to an extent thanks to being able to get rid of its Yache Berry. However, it is much more common
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Starmie is more common without Garchomp? That's really strange <_<
 
Well, Starmie now takes hits much better, as it doesn't need to run 269 sp attack anymore...just enough to kill the things it counters, leaving more room for HP and defenses. I donno 'bout you, but I'm liking my Bulky-star.
 
i myself have been using a stall team on ladder, and have noticed it has been far more successful now that Yache Chomp + Sand Veil cannot rip through me. I have also noticed the increase in Magnezones being used, and have opted to began using Shed Shell on my Skarmory
 
I've been seeing a lot more variety in pokemon than I have before. While previously a team was essentially garchomp/steel/steel/ice beamer/filler/filler now I'm seeing random stuff like Alakazam, Nidoqueen (previously mentioned) and even Rhyperior.

HP Grass is also the standard now. I haven't seen an electric pokemon use HP Ice in quite a while. It's a good thing too, because Swampert is more popular now that the top dragons can't beat him. DD mence does like 49% max to it.
 
For those who have playing the metagame without Garchomp and Deoxys -E, do you think that Aero might get more popular?

I mean, he deals with all the suicide leads you guys are talking about.
 
Linkrocks1972 said:
For those who have playing the metagame without Garchomp and Deoxys -E, do you think that Aero might get more popular?

I mean, he deals with all the suicide leads you guys are talking about.
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Last I checked, Aerodactyl is one of the suicide leads. It can't blow up, but neither can Deoxys, and it's considered a suicide lead iirc. (EDIT: Not to say that he has no other purpose, I just found it funny that a suicide lead was considered to counter other suicide leads.)

I've also noticed that there's a lot more variety in teams now. I recently finished a battle with an Ampharos lead, of all things. How much of this is due to no Garchomp/Deoxys to consider and how much is just us collectively messing around with a bunch of new options is open to debate.
 
I'm also having to reiterate what has been said that Nidoqueen is seeing a sudden surge in popularity. My best guess is before Garchomp/Deoxys prescence in the game just made it impossible to really give up a slot for it. However now that people are being able to build more balanced teams they're beginning to discover Nidoqueen. Whether its due to it being one of the few things able to threaten the dreaded E-Speed Lucario or its well-rounded offensive/support options I can't say however.
 
Nothing really deals with a suicide lead other than ttar, and even then they'll get SR up 100% of the time. Stopping to spin against an offensive team (as indicated by suicide lead) simply isn't possible in most cases.

Anyways, I can only confirm much of what has been said:

- Things that Garchomp used to fuck over are more common to varying degrees are more common, magnezone is getting a much bigger boost in popularity for this reason, as chomp used to fuck him over AND he counters a lot of the now more common steels.
- Slower scarfers show up more
- Lucario and Salamence seem to be the top two pokemon vying to become the next best thing to chomp, though Sala has more variety of sets from my experience, lucario is almost always running SD/ES.
- Huge upsurge in Lucario popularity leads to more Gliscor around, which in combination with the more common Salamence makes ice moves every bit as handy as they were with chomp around.

SR is something that will be tested later, petrie. They plan to iron out issues currently present before looking for new ones to open.
 
First off, it seems like it would be more productive to test Garchomp and Deoxys seperately, as they are both leave a very large impact when removed, it may be difficult to seperate what changes are caused by garchomp and what are caused by deoxys. For instance, I think the rise of starmie is caused partially by the removal of Deoxys, who could switch in relatively safely and OHKO starmie if it is EV'd properly.

Also, I see a large rise of Tentacruel now, and an enviroment being far more centralized over Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes, each of whom have relatively quick set-ups and large effects. I, personally, am running Tentacruel now, as it's much harder to kill with no garchomp and it can both TSpike and Rapid spin. Also on this subject, many good players have stealth rock suicide leads now, showing the brokenness of stealth rock. I think that these are big because of a less aggressive enviroment causing more switches, and because Salamence, who is somewhat replacing Garchomp, is weak to Stealth rock.

Tcruel has also found a special niche in hail teams, walling what hits them Super effective. Hail teams are growing in popularity due to the decline in sandstorm teams, who miss garchomp.

Fake out+Focus sash Infernape and Weavile are both growing in popularity as leads now, but I don't believe this has to do with the removal of garchomp and deoxys, as it is also happening on the standard ladder. Also, it seems to be done more by worse players than by good ones

Lucario and Salamence are both growing to replae Garchomp, but that's already been talked about.

Also, Lucario being a big threat now, Gliscor is running rampant on the suspect test ladder (This is worsened by the fact that HP ice has virtually disappeared, so he fears death by that less). Seriously, it''s everywhere. Many of the best player's stall teams do opt to use Donphan over Gliscor as a pseudo-counter to lucario, due to its ability to rapid spin. Gliscor and Donphan block usage of Metagross somewhat, who is one of the best resistors of Toxic spikes and SR. These T-Spikes inreases the number of Heracross, who gets a guts bonus from T-Spikes (Heracross being another reason gliscor is growing). Heracross plus the removal of Garchomp has caused a large drop in the number of Cresselia, who was primarily used as a Garchomp answer and fears Heracross megahorn.

Another big thing is that Magnezone is everywhere for it's ability to trap and shred Fortress and Skarmory, two big spikers. This is why they're not growing as fast as Tentacruel is, I believe. This may mean an increase of Heatran, as they're one of the few durable steels who aren't slaughtered by magnezone. Although now that there's no Garchomp, a durable (generally levitating) steel may be less nessecary. Steels seem more open to sweeping now, as the ones that don't levitate are much less likely to get raped by Garhomp. I was swept by a Jirachi a bit ago (it took me by suprise). Agiligross is growing in popularity, even though it is walled by Gliscor and Donphan, because of Garchomp's removal. It also resists T-Spikes and SR well, which I honest believe is another reason that grounded steels are growing in use.

Roserade is growing in popularity as a TSpikes absorber and placer, because of TSpikes expansion. I can't honestly say I know what this will mean for our metagame, but if roserade gets more used, swamperts may be replaced somewhat by tentacruels, to reduce grass weakness and absorb roserade's toxic spikes. I do, however, find this unlikely, as Swampert can wall the big dragons fairly effectively as of late. Especially since Salamence only deals it 49% max as seds said earlier.

It occurs to me, due to this growth in poison types (Nidos, Roserade, Tcruel, etc.), Psychic types may become more popular due to this as well as the drop in TTar use (caused by less sandstorm teams), and Starmie might drop a move for psychic. If this is the case, then pursuit users (Heracross, Metagross, Weavile) would jump in usage. The first two would actually make the gliscor problem even worse, but the 3rd would be good. Of course, now I'm predicting thoerymon for months ahead, so it's rather pointless. It's just interesting to see that Garchomp leaving would cause MORE weaviles.
 
The only problem I see with this is defining "benefit" when we haven't defined what we want in a metagame. We can make a subjective vote on whether removing the Suspects "benefits" the metagame but it makes more sense to have a definition of what we want in a metagame.
 
Shigen said:
... Psychic types may become more popular due to this as well as the drop in TTar use (caused by less sandstorm teams)...
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Just because there are fewer teams set up around SS, doesn't mean TTar is dropping in popularity. With all the suicide leads, I've been seeing a lot of TTar leads used recently to counter them.

Again, I think some of the changes people are talking about have more to do with the rapid shift of the metagame towards the fast suicide leads, and not necessarily to do with Garchomp and Deoxys being tested. We should be careful to try to separate the causes and the effects instead of assuming they are automatically related.
 
Just because there are fewer teams set up around SS, doesn't mean TTar is dropping in popularity. With all the suicide leads, I've been seeing a lot of TTar leads used recently to counter them.

Again, I think some of the changes people are talking about have more to do with the rapid shift of the metagame towards the fast suicide leads, and not necessarily to do with Garchomp and Deoxys being tested. We should be careful to try to separate the causes and the effects instead of assuming they are automatically related.
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I, personally, have seen less of them, but alright. And I do agree with trying to seperate what causes what. That's why I believe that Garchomp and Deoxys should be tested seperately. Also, we should primarily focus on changes that happen only in the suspect test, not the standard ladder. This would help us discern what caused it.
 
Shigen said:
I, personally, have seen less of them, but alright. And I do agree with trying to seperate what causes what. That's why I believe that Garchomp and Deoxys should be tested seperately. Also, we should primarily focus on changes that happen only in the suspect test, not the standard ladder. This would help us discern what caused it.
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Agreed. 100%.
 
Wait, why are we testing suspects individually? What if it turns out that, say, Deoxys-S keeps XYZ in check, then wouldn't we want to keep Deoxys? Perhaps with no Scarf Garchomp, Deoxys use will go down. I didn't even think he was that suspect.

I also don't see why we are testing Ubers in this "suspect free" metagame for inclusion in a Suspect Intcluded metagame. What if the combined force of them is too much for the metagame? Ideally, any one Pokémon that would begin to tip the metagame that way would be banned though.

I'm strongly in favor of taking Garchomp only out this month. We've had a Deoxys-less metagame (pre 08), a Deoxys-S and Chomp metagame (current), so let's see what happens without Garchomp in play for Deoxys.
 
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