The Uber Metagame: a Fun "Change of Pace"

[Kir]

Note for posters: DO NOT DISCUSS WHETHER CERTAIN POKEMON SHOULD BE BANNED FROM UBERS.

The uber metagame has been seemingly forgotten in the transition to Platinum.

Hopefully this thread will encourage some of you to begin the “dive” into ubers. I will try and express why I believe it to be in the best interest of all of you to attempt this tier, that for whatever reason, is consistently frowned upon by much of the competitive community.

I will be honest. I have not played ubers myself for all that long, though in my short experience, I have learned a lot and have truly enjoyed Pokemon more than in the past when I played strictly OU. Allow me to explain.

The uber metagame is one that requires more strategy than OU, or even UU for that matter. This is because a player can ill afford to make a single mistake, lest they are put at a large disadvantage; such disadvantages are often impossible to overcome given the presence of such immensely powerful threats like Deoxys-A and Mewtwo. In the uber metagame, bar the occasional (yet inevitable) hax, the better player wins.

As alluded to earlier, many OU battlers can gain a lot of knowledge by simply "getting their feet wet" in ubers. There are new moves to learn, and obviously more threats to be aware of. From my experience, it seems that the tier is centralized around executing a strategy rather than slapping together 6 glass cannons and hoping to wreck stuff, or simply using ObiStall. Granted, many of the best OU teams are centered around executing a certain strategy, though not always. It is the things like these that drove me away from OU in the first place, though I will return someday.

Auto-rain and Auto-sun are unique to the uber metagame by way of Kyogre and Groudon respectively. This opens the door to so many various Pokemon like Kingdra or Exeggutor, or also to the rather common dual-weather Scarf-Palkia that boasts Surf and Fire Blast on the same set. There are so many viable options in these two aforementioned weather conditions, too many for me to rattle off without boring, you, the reader, which I hopefully haven’t done yet xD.

There is a whole new wrinkle to Baton Pass teams in ubers that cannot be ignored. Mew. Mew is the unquestioned elite Baton Passer in all of Pokemon; it can pass +2 in any stat or it can pass Bulk Up/Calm Mind (not to mention it has Taunt + Hypnosis). Couple this with maddog’s “signature” Lopunny or any other outstanding Baton Passer and you are on your way to a surprisingly successful team, though beware of pseudo-hazers. If you think getting Smeargle an Ingrain in OU is hard, try it in ubers… same goes for switching in Mr. Mime.

Though I am not against Stealth Rock in any way, I know there are plenty of Stealth Rock haters out there. In the fast-paced uber environment, Stealth Rock is still near omni-present, but remember that there are plenty more viable ways of stopping it in ubers as opposed to OU. I’m sure everyone recalls the Dual-Screen Taunt+SR Deoxys-s who recently had his reign of OU supremacy come to a halt… Use him in ubers! He is still an excellent choice as a lead Pokemon. There are other popular Deoxys-s sets such as the Counter + Mirror Coat + Taunt variant, but I will let you explore those options on your own. The point here though, is that Stealth Rock-less battles are much easier to come by in ubers. By the way, Deoxys-s is not the only way to stop the Rocks from going up, but again, you can explore this all for yourself.

And on a lesser note, to all of you Smogonites that miss your beloved Garchomp… he is there in ubers too and is still a fine choice. Check out this RMT if you don’t believe me. I’m sure ManiaclyRasist won’t mind me sticking this in here:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36631

EDIT: Don't comment in the link shown above. It was accidentally bumped. It is from February. Please don't bother with it lol. Should have mentioned this earlier.


There is another Pokemon world out there! Enjoy the ubers!

 

[chenman333]

The learning curve is actually a lot faster than you think, so most pokemon all run the same sets...so much so that I actually feel there isn't much variety. The pool of pokemon is quite limited to begin with, and then only the best of those of chosen. And you end up playing the same people over and over.

But it is quite fun at first. Nothing beats kicking ass with pokemon that DO kick so much ass. Because it is so fun using pokemon that are so destructively powerful, and just sweeping.

 

[PyroDudeX]

Hmm, not much variety. People are going to obviously use a Darkrai or Sleep Talk lead.

 

[Veedrock]

Hmm, not much variety. People are going to obviously use a Darkrai or Sleep Talk lead.

You could use Absol (Magic Coat) or Scarfed Deoxys-E (Superpower!). Takes Darkrai leads out no problem (unless of course you've played that opponent before and they know what you're plotting).


I've haven't played much of ubers but did indeed try to get into it. In my short existance there, I found it very unforgiving. I like it but you can't do practically anything. They say it takes more strategy but oftentimes it just requires you to pick who to sacrifice. You can't make any "safe" switches like you can in other metagames. Don't get me wrong, I like it just fine, but it's exaggerated by those that like it (which is to be expected of course). It takes a lot to get into it, often playing a dozen games before you even come close to a good match because it's so hard to build a good team. There's so few options. I don't find it as interesting as OU (haven't played UU yet).

On a side note, I won my very first match against a notorious uber player :D

 

[Matthew]

My warstory is a great representation of the Uber metagame.

Though I like this thread, Ubers doesn't get enough light. Any questions comments or converns can be directed and me if you would like

 

[PyroDudeX]

You could use Absol (Magic Coat) or Scarfed Deoxys-E (Superpower!). Takes Darkrai leads out no problem (unless of course you've played that opponent before and they know what you're plotting).


I've haven't played much of ubers but did indeed try to get into it. In my short existance there, I found it very unforgiving. I like it but you can't do practically anything. They say it takes more strategy but oftentimes it just requires you to pick who to sacrifice. You can't make any "safe" switches like you can in other metagames. Don't get me wrong, I like it just fine, but it's exaggerated by those that like it (which is to be expected of course). It takes a lot to get into it, often playing a dozen games before you even come close to a good match because it's so hard to build a good team. There's so few options. I don't find it as interesting as OU (haven't played UU yet).

On a side note, I won my very first match against a notorious uber player :D

UU is the shitz. But yeah its mainly countering Lati@s and Darkrai and Mewtwo IMO. The 4 most over played ubers

 

[reachzero]

I find the relative predictability of Ubers to be one of its strengths. As I've said before, it's rather like chess, where you know your opponents pieces, and have a pretty fair idea of what he or she will try to do with them. On the other hand, you get thrown a curveball once in a while (I just got destroyed by a special Bronzong that that I was totally unprepared for, for example), and it makes an even bigger impact than the same surprise would in OU. Since the topic is Ubers, I should mention how incredibly underrated Double Dance Groudon is (i.e. Groudon with Swords Dance/Rock Polish/Earthquake/Dragon Claw). If it manages to set up, on Forretress or Scizor for example, your opponent is in for a world of hurt.

 

[Veedrock]

UU is the shitz. But yeah its mainly countering Lati@s and Darkrai and Mewtwo IMO. The 4 most over played ubers

Where...are you getting your information?

| 1 | Kyogre | 4076 |
| 2 | Rayquaza | 4017 |
| 3 | Groudon | 3824 |
| 4 | Darkrai | 3240 |


Darkrai is number 4 exactly. Mewtwo is 6. Latias isn't even seen until 14 (and when teams only have 6 pokemon with few uber options, that's pretty high), and Latios isn't even top 20. (not to mention that if Lati@s was in the top usage, chances are that they wouldn't be tested).

...fact > "fact" next time.

 

[Colonel M]

So yeah, Ubers is a metagame that I've played for a while. So I know a few things here and there.

One thing that you must understand about Ubers is that the selection of Pokemon is still very big. Basically, there aren't any restrictions in the first place (except Arceus). Movesets actually are bigger on some Uber Pokemon (look at Mewtwo, Palkia, and Dialga for good examples). Ubers is very fast-paced. In other words, it's all about predicting, reaction, and others.

If you've played OU, I won't lie: it's not hard to pick this up. Hyper-offensive teams work very well here with the mass users of Calm Mind. Then there's the nasty mixed Pokemon such as Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina-O that can crush people under pressure. Many OU Pokemon are viable in Ubers too. Metagross, Tyranitar, Scizor, and many others appear here and there. And yes, your best friend Blissey does too.

I recommend trying it. And if you need help learning, just ask me. You'll be surprised how fast you can pick up on this.

 

[Druggedfox]

I love this thread. Ubers is a great metagame, and I agree that the better player usually does win. Ubers isn't hard to get the hang of mostly because there's not enough good players out there. The move sets are generally limited to one or two sets per pokemon (that you commonly see) so the rest is based off of strategy and prediction. I've played ubers a lot and placed number 1 (and taught some of the other number 1 players) and it is by far my favorite metagame when there are actually people on the ladder. In OU a good team determines a lot, but you can never prepare for everything. In ubers you know exactly what's coming at you, and if you lose it's because you got outplayed, or your team is flat out unusable. If anyone actually has a problem learning the uber tier, there's a plethora of players who'd be willing to help (and qualified to help as well). It's such a great and overlooked metagame... this is an awesome thread

Nice one 8 ball~~

 

[Kir]

The learning curve is actually a lot faster than you think, so most pokemon all run the same sets...so much so that I actually feel there isn't much variety. The pool of pokemon is quite limited to begin with, and then only the best of those of chosen.

There is more variety than many people believe. Lets look at the 4 most common Pokemon that Veedrock mentioned:

Kyogre - 7 sets on Smogon analysis
Rayquaza - 5
Groudon - 7
Darkrai - 6

And lets not forget that many of these different sets have different counters too. Generally speaking, Lugia is a fine counter to Groudon. However, if the Groudon is the ParaDancer (Twave, Swords Dance, Earthquake, Stone Edge) and hits Lugia on the switch with a Thunderwave, Groudon Swords Dances, survives Ice Beam with relative ease, and then ohkos Lugia with Stone Edge.

This is one of many examples.

Also, remember that you can use non uber Pokemon in uber battles. Tyranitar, Scizor, Blissey, and Kingdra are some good examples of standards that function well in ubers.

Reachzero, nice chess analogy ;)

EDIT: Darn, Colonel M beat me to most of this...

 

[PyroDudeX]

Where...are you getting your information?

From my personal experience playing Ubers.

 

[Matthew]

From my personal experience playing Ubers.

YOur information is WAY off. If I had to pick from personal experience it would have to be Kyogre, Groudon, Palkia and... Darkrai. If you see a mewtwo that often you need to play some better people, Mewtwo has it's uses... the main one (now being) is the Dual Screen explosion set.

 

[Veedrock]

I forgot to point out that I never ran into Lati@s and ran into Mewtwo once (and he wasn't a great player; it was probably more for nostalgia).

Personal experience has no bearing on statistics. I was actually just flinched 14/16 times; doesn't mean the flinch rate is 87.5%.


Anyways, has anybody considered petitioning for an Uber tutor system? I'm not recommending it for first time battlers (have some time requirement or something), but it would help build activity in the ladder and improve the quality of those non-regular uber players. I'm not suggesting it be on a large scale either (since the players know the basics of pokemon); maybe like a 1 week trial (at least 3 meetings) to gain personal, hands-on experience with the metagame and learn the ins-and-outs of the world of ubers.

I'd sign up for it in an instant.

 

[Matthew]

Most regular tutors are also skilled in UU and Ubers

 

[Smiller]

I never tried Ubers because I am having enough trouble in OU and am trying to figure the metagame out before I try any others. I know there is still something I need to get, but I do not know what... I am always having trouble with this kind of thing... But I think that the second metagame I am going to try out in UU, since I use so many UU Pokemon already in my daily teams.

 

[Darkmalice]

YOur information is WAY off. If I had to pick from personal experience it would have to be Kyogre, Groudon, Palkia and... Darkrai. If you see a mewtwo that often you need to play some better people, Mewtwo has it's uses... the main one (now being) is the Dual Screen explosion set.

I haven't seen any DS Mewtwo. Most still seem to be the standard Taunt + CM Mewtwo.

Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, Darkrai, Palkia and Dialga are the 6 most common pokes I see. Most common OU poke in ubers is Scizor, who is pretty common. I think it should be Blissey though; she's better in ubers than OU thanks to so many special threats.

 

[Jibaku]

Well for once a thread about the uber metagame pops up

The uber metagame unfortunately hasn't moved a whole lot during the past few months, but I can smell progress. The once famed Deoxys-S and Deoxys-A leads are shooting downwards at meteor like speed, and are now replaced by Scarf Darkrai leads. However, as great as it is at the moment, it's holding on by a single thread. Its previous purpose was to destroy the Deoxys leads, which are vanishing, and now its main purpose as a lead now is to induce a quick sleep.

That quick sleep is what Scarfrai leads are handing on a thread with. Soon, people will abuse Lum Berry random things and end Darkrai's leading reign. I've started to do this with Lum Berry Scizor, which was/is pretty effective at decimating Darkrai leads (and has the added bonus of smacking Deoxys-A leads as long as they don't have Counter).

But enough about leads

As for variety...uhhh...this isn't quite the most interesting topic to work with. Apparently the uber metagame suffers from people running the same sets over and over again it becomes ridiculous (Specs Kyogre and Scarf Palkia being the main ones), and thus reduces the amount variety that could be harnessed by some of these Pokemon's massive movepools. Sure they can be the best sets...but would it hurt to try something different? Because I'm certain they can't be the best set forever. So I'd like to redirect all of you who just skipped posts to read reachzero's post.

This is a Palkia set I've been using with some great results

Palkia @ Lustrous Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 6 SAtk
Hasty Nature (+Spd, -Def)
- Aqua Tail
- Spacial Rend
- Outrage
- Fire Blast

Alright apparently due to the commoness of Scarf Palkia people start sending in their Blisseys to wall the living daylight out of it. That or some Steel to take Spacial Rends. This set says no.

With only 6 Special Attack EVs, coupled with Lustrous Orb, Spacial Rend coming from this Palkia will appear to do the same amount of damage as a standard Scarfkia's Spacial Rend, and thus often fakes people out into thinking that it is a Scarfer. Whatever they send in to take the Spacial Rend can eat a 339 Atk Lustrous Orb Aqua Tail in the rain.

For the record, after Stealth Rock is down, and Blissey swaps into Spacial Rend, Aqua Tail kills her. This way Blissey won't be able to press Softboiled on the next turn to scout for Aqua Tail, because she'd be dead by then. That would probably be the only reason Aqua Tail goes there instead of Surf, but it can be worth it.

Outrage beats down Kyogres. Granted, it's not a safe approach, but with 336 Special Attack Thunder isn't going to cut Kyogre. Outrage provides an alternate weapon against Blissey in the sun as well. Speaking of sunlight...well there's Fire Blast to cut Steels down.

As darknessmalice mentioned, Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, Dialga, Palkia and Darkrai are the most common Pokemon in the uber metagame at the moment. For me, though, I haven't seen a lot of Rayquazas lately, and I don't know why. I'm just guessing that Rayquaza's main force is that it takes advantage of choiced moves and sets up, and if people are starting to be more cautious about it, Rayquaza's time to set up becomes more limited. That can be both good or bad. Good in the fact that the metagame's finally shifting, bad in the fact that I love Rayquaza and if he can't find time to set up I'm sad :(

One thing I can't help not mentioning is that due to the hyperoffensiveness of this metagame hax is likely to be deadlier that it has ever been in the previous metagames.

Speaking of hyperoffensiveness, people have started to use different spreads

Rock Polish Groudons I see nowadays run a whole bunch of Speed. I don't know how much exactly, but they often outran my Giratina-O, who is uncomfortably sitting at 254 Speed.

At one point I got ticked off at a person whose Rayquaza survived my Palkia's Spacial Rend.

However, I feel as if the metagame will eventually go back to the beginning. Right now, many teams use Palkia to stop Kyogre. But Palkia isn't going to stop CM/Thunder/Ice Beam/Surf Kyogre. There are holes in the metagame that can be exploited, and my goal is to find them all.

Finally, the learning curve for the metagame might not be so hard, but utilizing certain Pokemon can still be very tough. For instance, if your expectation is for Giratina-O to sweep whole teams and switch into stuff easily with its 150 / 100 / 100 HP / Defenses, you're insane unless you have proper set up beforehand.

Now if only Maniac will post here...

 

[pi face]

Doesn't Surf on the Rain kill all steels anyway ?_? Expect Jirachi which is still taking ~70%+ from it, and no one uses him anymore besides me I guess.

Anyway, I do play ubers ocasionaly and it's a fun tier.

 

[reachzero]

The hard thing about innovating on the Ubers ladder is that the Ubers metagame punishes one mistake pretty badly. If you're testing an unexpected pokemon in OU (Toxicroak or Drapion, for example), even if it fails you only lose that pokemon, maybe one or two others if something like a Gyarados sets up on you. If you test an unexpected pokemon is Ubers, you're taking a much bigger risk. I've seen three or four Deoxys-Ds since I began playing Ubers. I use Double Dance Groudon, so I would just let Deoxys-D set up its Stealth Rock and Spikes while I Rock Polished...then SDed, then SD again on the switch. Before you know it, it's 6-0, gg. Ubers is a very unforgiving metagame, so even the more creative player has to be careful with his/her creativity.

 

[Jibaku]

Doesn't Surf on the Rain kill all steels anyway ?_? Expect Jirachi which is still taking ~70%+ from it, and no one uses him anymore besides me I guess.

It's for Blissey mainly. Everything else takes more damage from Surf. I've also busted through Calm Mind Mewtwo and Tyranitar with this. I mean you could throw an Outrage at Blissey, but that's unsafe for the most part.

I remembered a particular famous uber user (not going to mention his name) used Quagsire in ubers. Luckily my Kyogre had CM/Ice Beam so it went down.

Creativity in ubers is a high risk/high reward thing. So when you try to be creative, be sure to address the risks first and see whether using such will end up hurting your team instead. However, if your creativity came in successfully, it's your turn to unforgivingly punish the opponent's predictability.

 

[chenman333]

Yes it is true that most of the pokemon have a lot of sets, very few of them are actually used. *cough* Specs Kyogre, DDQuaza, ScarfPalkia *cough* There are a lot of available sets for pokemon, but some are just so good (Specs Kyogre for example) that unless you need to use a set for a specific reason, you are always going to use that set.

 

[Matthew]

I've noticed that Giratina is not "the best physical wall" any more. Lugia surpassed him with her superior speed, that can out pace a Jolly Rayquaza. Giratina mostly can be found on stall teams because of hist ghost typing.

 

[-Mind-]

It's kind of sad many people doesn't play the metagame, before someone come on uberladder i must wait around 20 min usually.

 

[never_again]

I've noticed that Giratina is not "the best physical wall" any more. Lugia surpassed him with her superior speed, that can out pace a Jolly Rayquaza. Giratina mostly can be found on stall teams because of hist ghost typing.

The problem isnt that Giratina is a slow wall.
Its that it cant handle Rayquaza, the premier physical attacker, at all, even if it werent Jolly
It also cant take Special Dragon attacks, like Dialga/Palkia, Latias, even Rayquaza can launch Draco Meteors at it.

Lugia also manhandles Garchomp. Other than that, they're about the same against the other physical threats (they both suck against TTar, they both take on Scizor/Metagross pretty well) Lugia also gets Roost.

Lugia's only disadvantage over Giratina, that I would say is really relevant is that its Stealth Rock weak. Otherwise, Lugia can switch into Palkia and Dialga all day, as I think Thunder is a 3HKO without SR and with leftovers, which is ridiculous(that is, Timid Dialga/Palkia w/ 399 SpAtk)

Giratina does handle RP Groudon relatively well though.

Anyways, I havent played in a while because as you know, I never change teams, I just make new ones every couple of years. So right now, my old teams are defunct and Im too lazy to make a new team, but I'll get around to it someday