The UU Role Comparison Project

Custap Crustle vs. Froslass
as Hyper Offensive Hazard Setters

----VS----


Crustle's Advantages:

  • Access to both Stealth Rock and Spikes
  • Hazard setting is not reliant on speed
  • Can beat opposing leads with Rock Blast & X-Scissor
  • High base Atk
Crustle's Disadvantages:

  • Lacks supporting moves like Destiny Bond, Thunder Wave, or Taunt
  • Reliant on getting brought down to Custap range
  • Can't spin block
  • Low base speed
I think Custap Berry Crustle is a really cool hazard setter, if used correctly it can almost guarantee Stealth Rocks and at least 1 layer of Spikes on the field. Here's the set I've most effectively used:
Crustle @ Custap Berry
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SDef
- X-Scissor
- Rock Blast
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock

EVs & IVs configured to make Crustle's defenses as low as possible to increase the likelihood of an attack bringing it down to 25% health. Crustle hits quite hard as well thanks to it's base 95 Atk stat.
 
Perhaps... Umbreon vs Togekiss as a Defensive Cleric?

vs.


Umbreon's Advantages:
  • Higher bulk in every way, giving it more staying power and being generally easier to switch in.
  • Not weak to Stealth Rock, meaning its bulk is not compromised as easily.
  • Isn't weak to the electric attacks of Zapdos and Raikou, nor the somewhat common Rock type attacks.
  • Walls many special attackers for days.
  • Can viably WishPass with an above-average base 95 HP, keeping its teammates healthy throughout the match.
  • Punishes status attempts with Synchronize.
  • Smashes physical attackers like Victini and Darmanitan with a powerful Foul Play due to their high attack.
Umbreon's Disadvantages:
  • Is vulnerable to Spikes.
  • Is weak to the common Bug and Fighting-type attacks, and can do little to Fighting types on the switch.
  • Foul Play's damage is reliant on the opponent, whereas Defensive Togekiss can set up and Air Slash whatever the hell it likes, doing good damage in the process.
  • Togekiss' ability is better, as it can flinch its way out of unfavorable situations.
  • Umbreon is predictable, as it typically runs one set with little variation; Togekiss, however, is quite variable and harder to predict.
  • Togekiss can run both physically and specially defensive sets, whereas Umbreon usually runs only specially defensive sets on account of having sub-optimal typing for the former.
 
Some things to change Shiruba:

-- Togekiss doesn't need to invest in offense to gain attacking prowess either, already hitting pretty well with Air Slash. The fact that it regularly carries Nasty Plot means that it is far more offensive than Umbreon and doesn't even need EVs to be an absolute offensive terror (whereas Foul Play doesn't exactly make Umbreon a terror). I would remove your third Umbreon bullet and add to "Umbreon's Disadvantages" that Togekiss is more powerful offensively. The fact that Togekiss is such an offensive threat to slow teams absolutely bears mentioning.

-- Next, I would remove the WishPass bullet on Advantages and unreliable recovery on Advantages. Both Togekiss and Umbreon have access to Baton Pass, Wish, and a reliable recovery move (Roost/Moonlight). Though Wish Togekiss and Moonlight Umbreon are both bad ideas, I would remove these bullets all the same, because these sets aren't bad per se, it's just that Roost/Wish are better for these Pokemon, respectively.

-- The last huge difference I see you missing is that Togekiss can run an excellent Defensive set and an excellent Special Defensive set (indeed, Defensive is most popular among top players), but Umbreon only runs Special Defense, and with good reason -- it's typing isn't great for the former.
 
Hmm, would it be a bad idea/irrelevant to mention that Umbreon has more HP to pass bigger wishes, or is the difference negligible?

Aside from that, edited, though Foul Play does do pretty excellent damage to Darmanitan [KOing after SR, iirc] and Victini, among others, I'm sure. I was thinking of removing the comment of Roost mitigating weakness as well, considering that Togekiss is somewhat slow, with Zapdos, Raikou, and a lot of Pokemon carrying Stone Edge being faster, and with Rhyperior being able to predict the Roost and Earthquake, making the advantage situational at best - especially since the defensive set doesn't usually carry Thunder Wave.
 

TPO3

Never practice; Always perform.
Hmm, would it be a bad idea/irrelevant to mention that Umbreon has more HP to pass bigger wishes, or is the difference negligible?

Aside from that, edited.
The difference is negligible for a couple of reasons:

1) the difference in max HP is Umbreon's 394 to Togekiss's 374, so you're only passing 10 extra HP

2) Togekiss doesn't really even use WishPassing sets anyways. It has bad enough 4 moveslot syndrome, and its defensive capabilities are hindered by the fact that its weak to Stealth Rock. Most Wish passers are defensive behemoths, like Umbreon or (before it was banned) Chansey.
 
Sooooo tell it to me straight - Togekiss is outclassed as a viable WishPasser, yes? I've never seen the set while battling, and it's not on a Smogon analysis [aside from OO] so I'd think so?

[I'm also wondering if I should just not mention Toxic Spikes, as I don't see them very often due to the amount of viable, grounded Poison-types, Steel-types, Flying-types, and Pokemon with Levitate, and spikers tend to run only regular Spikes for this reason - I think I've seen them, like, once]
 

CoolStoryBrobat

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I think you could also afford to mention that Togekiss usually can't afford to run Protect if it runs Wish...due to 4MSS. I mean I rocked a set that had Wish, Air Slash, T-Wave, and Heal Bell and I kinda had a 60% chance of getting a safe Wish against a slow/paralyzed foe, but Protect is more reliable in the long run, but Togekiss really doesn't have room for it on a cleric set. I mean, you COULD run it but you'll be wishing you had Nasty Plot or Thunder wave or something.
 
Yeah, I think "viably run wishpass" sums it up in a somewhat vague yet correct way - after all, you don't really want a wall of text explaining all of the little details - that's what an analysis is for. [my comparison for Shaymin/Roserade isn't concise enough imo, though I'm not sure what to remove]. Togekiss could technically run it but there are other things it'd prefer to do, really. Thanks, Brobat.
 
---Snorlax -------- Zweilous
[PIMG]143[/PIMG] VS [PIMG]664[/PIMG]

for special defensive wall and Rest-Talking para-shuffler.

Similarities:
Good special bulk
Fire and Ghost resistances (lol Chandelure)
High attack
Access to paralysis and shuffling

Benefits to Snorlax:
Better overall bulk (497/213/330 vs 348/266/393)
Ice resistance
Neutral to Bug and Dragon
100% Accurate
Leftovers recovery
Can damage while paralyzing (Body Slam)

Benefits to Zweilous
Damage while shuffling (the strongest Dragon Tail in the game)
More reliable paralysis (Thunder Wave)
Grass, Water and Electric resistance with Psychic immunity
Higher Attack (309 vs 256)
Better STABs
Higher Speed (152 vs 96)

Snorlax is a more reliable special wall overall with superior longevity, fewer weaknesses and no chance to miss. That said, Zweilous can be a viable alternative with its impressive set of resistances and ability to deal heavy damage with Dragon Tail. They are probably both better off being used offensively though.
 
Hmmm... I can't help but think that Zweilous' Dragon Tail is iffy given that Dragon Tail's already imperfect accuracy is decreased with Hustle [though the extra damage is nice, there are some times when you really need to phase, and a miss can really cost you] - though, at the same time, the accuracy is still better than a Whirlwind against Wonder Skin Venomoth, which is nice [lord that thing is annoying]. Still, though, it's an interesting idea... Might have to look into Zweilous...
 
Just wanna point out that Zweilous does have access to Roar and as it isn't a Physical Attack the Accuracy is left intact. So Snorlax doesn't have him beat with reliable Phazing since Zweilous can fall back on Roar if you can't afford an untimely miss.
 
Trueee and I did find that out later from looking at the analysis, but at the same time he mentioned Zweilous having better STABs in the plural, which I guess would imply Crunch in the last slot alongside Dragon Tail? Perhaps it'd be better worth noting that as opposed to the STABs if you're not running moves based off of them both?
 
Okay I got another one. Weezing vs. Cofagrigus as a Physical Wall?

vs.


Weezing's Advantages
-Levitate grants Weezing an Immunity to Spikes making it harder to wear down with Hazards not to mention the handy Ground Immunity it has
-Poison-typing means Weezing will not be crippled by Toxic
-Cofagrigus loses to SD variants of Heracross as they use it as set-up fodder while CB Hera can simply 2HKO it with Night Slash. Weezing however may carry Flamethrower and isn't weak to any of Hera's coverage Moves so he will always beat it
-Weezing has access to Clear Smog so he can eliminate boosts even after being Taunted. However as it doesn't go through Substitute common users of the Move such as Kingdra become more of a threat
-a Grass resistance means Weezing fares better against some specific threats, such as SD Virizion

Weezing's Disadvantages
-inferior bulk all around. Weezing's Special Defense in particular is severely lacking, Base 70 as opposed to Cofagrigus's respectable 105 Base
-Weezing lacks the tools needed to sweep through Teams unlike Cofagrigus who is known for his potent Offensive Trick Room Set
-Bulky Psychic-types, most notably Victini check Weezing with ease whereas Cofagrigus can hit back hard with STAB Shadow Ball, Chandelure is another concern especially since it may get a Flash Fire boost if it comes in on Flamethrower or Will-O-Wisp
-although Levitate is an amazing Ability, Cofagrigus boasts Mummy which is very helpful for Physical threats that depend on their Abilities such as Azumarill, Sharpedo and Moxie Sweepers
 

CoolStoryBrobat

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I think it's also worth a mention that Weezing gets checked by just about every single bulky psychic-type that Cofagrigus can at least hit back with Shadow Ball. And you also gotta mention Weezing's got Clear Smog. Even though Cofag has Haze, Clear Smog at least isn't affected by Taunt. Minor stuff, but worthy of a mention imo
 
Wow I can't believe I forgot about Clear Smog, thanks brobat I'll add that. Although I feel Haze is generally better since it actually goes through Subs. Eh. Still an option.
 
Oh good catch- I completely forgot about Roar. One of the main selling points of Zweilous is that meaty Dragon Tail but Roar is definitely viable. I mentioned plural STABs as Crunch could be a good option for whittling down bulky ghosts. On the subject of bulky ghosts that's one thing I really like about using Dragon Tail- you can switch into Cofagrigus et al and get off a nice chunk of damage, whereas parashuffler lax can only whirlwind them out.

Also yeah Brobat I think it's a really good idea to cover as much as we can think of. I would also mention that Clear Smog doesn't break through subs and that Weezing's grass resistance gives him an advantage against things like SD Virizion. Mummy is also a huge asset against stuff like Azumarill, Shed Skin Scrafty, Moxie sweepers, etc.

Anyways I got another one:

---Qwilfish -------- Slowbro
[PIMG]211[/PIMG]VS[PIMG]80[/PIMG]

for physical wall that checks Fighting and Fire.

Similarities:
Good physical bulk (334/273/146 and 393/348/196 respectively)
Resistances to Fighting and Fire

Benefits to Slowbro:
Regenerator
Reliable recovery (Slack Off)
Better bulk
Powerful Scald (100 base SpAtk)
Good secondary STAB (Psychich/Psyshock)
Calm Mind
Neutral to Ground

Benefits to Qwilfish:
Intimidate
Spikes/Toxic Spikes
Absorbs Toxic Spikes
Resistance to Bug (lol Heracross)
Haze
Destiny Bond
Pain Split

Slowbro is the more reliable option here with better bulk, healing, and offense. On the other hand Qwilfish has a sizeable cult following and not completely without merit. While Qwilfish is not as dependable as a dedicated wall he is far superior as a general support Pokemon, being able to "pass" Intimidates to other walls, provide Spikes to aid a sweep, absorb Toxic Spikes, and heavily dent or kill troublesome mons with Pain Split and Destiny Bond. Qwilfish is also somewhat anti-meta, being able to comfortably wall Heracross whereas Slowbro fears Megahorn. Don't get too caught up in the hype though as Qwilfish does have major flaws. Most notably is his very poor offensive presence, dealing very little with Waterfall without even a chance to burn. His other STAB doesn't offer much coverage and is equally weak. Switching over to special for Hydro Pump does off a light boost in power but at the cost of great reliability. One must be very careful not to let the enemy gain free turns off of Qwilfish. On the defensive side Qwilfish also suffers, needing to get an Intimidate off in order to match Slowbro's bulk, something which can be a liability in the face of Substitute or Defiant users. Without Regenerator or reliable redcovery Qwilfish gets worn down extremely easily, relying on strategic Pain Splits if anything. His ground weakness also lets him down making it difficult to wall common threats such as Rhyperior, Flygon, and Darmanitan who would all be handled easily by Slowbro. Overall Qwilfish is an extremely viable Poke but unlike the user friendly Slowbro, Qwilfish must be played precisely and deliberately.
 
Also yeah Brobat I think it's a really good idea to cover as much as we can think of. I would also mention that Clear Smog doesn't break through subs and that Weezing's grass resistance gives him an advantage against things like SD Virizion. Mummy is also a huge asset against stuff like Azumarill, Shed Skin Scrafty, Moxie sweepers, etc.
.
Well I included that part about Subs last night but wow I left out some important stuff, makes me worry about that first comparison I made between Galvantula and Zapdos -.- anyway I'll include those and try to think of some more, thanks guys.
 
I have finally found another comparison.

Overall Fire Type

Darmanitan Victini
vs


Darmanitan Advantages


  • A significantly higher base Atk stat
  • Access to Sheer Force which boost its Atk power to insane level allowing it to dent alot of pokemon easily.
  • Has access to Superpower which lets it hit rock types harder instead of using Brick Break
  • It also can use Earthquake giving it better coverage
  • Can continue to sweep with his most powerful STAB move Flare Blitz which Victini can't because Victini loses speed after V-Create (However it should be noted Victini can learn Flare Blitz)
Darmanitan Disadvantages



  • Has significantly less bulk than Victini which allow it to get killed very easily, though it should be noted Darmanitan has a better Hp stat than Victini by 5 base Hp.
  • Darmanitian cannot run a choice band set like Victini thanks to it speed stat.
  • Darmanitan cannot run a special attack set thanks to it horrible special attack stat
  • Victini can run more sets than Darmanitian.
  • Victini Choice Band set lets it hit harder than all of Darmanitian set thank to V-Create
  • Darmanitian can run s Choice Band set, but Victini's is better thanks to more speed.
  • Gets wore down faster than Vicitini thanks to Flare Blitz Recoil
Hmm i like this one better than my first one
 
This is pretty nit-picky but I don't see how Darm's extra 5 Base HP is notable since Victini is still much bulkier all around as Darm's Defenses are pitiful. You should also mention that Darm lacks Electric-type coverage Moves and his Grass Knot is pathetic so he has a harder time with Bulky Waters than Victini. Another thing I think is worth mentioning is that Darm can do something Victini only wishes he can do: sweep with his most powerful STAB Move. Flare Blitz causes Darm to take recoil but it doesn't lower his Speed so he can cleanup more easily with a Scarf. Aside from that I think everything's covered.
 

CoolStoryBrobat

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I think you missed a few other important details...Darmanitan actually CAN run a Choice Band set pretty effectively. Granted it's not as fast as Victini, base 95 Speed is still pretty good, and with Darmanitan's ridiculous Atk stat + Sheer Force, it's an incredibly good wallbreaker against anything that isn't a bulky water. The only thing is the SR weakness + Flare Blitz often means Darmanitan's going to be dying rather quickly, which is why people prefer to run LO (less dmg output but you can at least switch moves) or Victini itself.

You also might wanna add the fact that Darmanitan also isn't completely wrecked by Pursuit users, namely Snorlax. While Sucker Punch does destroy both Darmanitan and Victini, Darmanitan has a better time against Snorlax due to both having Superpower (clean kill) and not being Pursuit weak, in the event a Snorlax with some Def EVs switches in on a Scarf V-Create and uses Pursuit, Victini more often than not is going to have to switch out and thus be killed. Darmanitan gets off free.

tl;dr- Darm's main STAB kills it off quickly due to recoil and SR weakness, but it isn't Pursuit weak and isn't prone to easy revenge killing due to a lack of stat drops
 
Victini also has that element of surprise in the sense that it totally screws over its usual counters if it runs a special set, which is quite good outside of surprise factor as well, and Blue Flare doesn't give Victini stat drops like V-Create does - though it has 130 as opposed to 180 BP.

In addition, I wouldn't consider Superpower to be a selling point of Darmanitan to hit rock types, really, when the only truly notable one I can think of is Rhyperior, which gets Solid Rock AND takes physical hits like a champ, while having Earthquake/Rock Blast/Stone Edge to hit back super-effectively [for the KO, given Darmi's low defenses and Rhyperior's high Attack]. Victini's Grass Knot seems better for that too imo, especially since Victini lures Rhyperior to take its V-Create due to the latter's massive HP, defense, and Fire resistance. Superpower also causes stat drops, which means one cannot really spam it.

Victini is also infinitely superior in the looks department. Come on. Darmanitan is freakin' hideous.
 
Vs.


Porygon-Z vs. Chandelure for Role as Choice Specs Poke

Similarities:

  • Monster High Sp. Attack
  • Access to Trick
  • Great Coverage
  • Both are susceptible to all entry hazards
  • Both pokes look cooler as shiny :-D
Advantages of Porygon-Z

  • Not Stealth Rock Weak
  • Not Pursuit Weak
  • Priority Moves like Sucker Punch and Aqua Jet aren't SE.
  • Adaptability boosts STAB Tri-Attack ignoring pokes that resist Normal Typing.
  • STAB Adaptability Tri-Attack has a nifty 20% Chance to paralyze, freeze or burn.
  • Can 2HKO the most Sp Def of pokes (barring Snorlax and Umbreon, but can come close to 2HKO after SR damage).
  • Only 1 weakness
  • Higher Speed than Chandelure and can run Modest and still be faster than neutral-natured non choice scarf Heracross and promptly OHKO with Tri-Attack.
  • Many coverage moves at its disposal to fit Porygon-Z's needs (i.e. Psychic, Signal Beam, Thunder(bolt), Blizzard, etc..)
Disadvantages of Porygon-Z

  • Fighting Weakness and only one immunity doesn't grant too many switch-in opportunities.
  • Lack of dual STAB forces Porygon-Z to rely on Tri-Attack and coverage moves.
  • While it is not Pursuit weak, Snorlax can easily KO with Choice Band Body Slam/Return. With 80/70/75 defenses, it won't be taking any hits anytime soon.
Overall, I'd personally classify Porygon-Z as a Med-Risk, High Reward poke if used correctly. It can tear down the walls that Chandelure would have trouble breaking through (Porygon2 and Snorlax). However, the ability for Porygon-Z to switch in is very limiting. Chandelure has immunities to Fire (if running Flash Fire), Fighting and Normal and resists Bug, Steel, Grass and Ice, which allows for multiple switch-ins. No matter the choice, both are great users of Choice Specs and won't disappoint!
 

CoolStoryBrobat

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is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
hey guys, while reading this thread, something hit me--seeing how this thing gets a good amount of activity, I can see this is gonna be a huge thread soon...is there any way we could consolidate our data for future accessibility or something? Otherwise we'd have to do a ton of searching, and it may not even bring up what you had in mind when you find it.
 
hey guys, while reading this thread, something hit me--seeing how this thing gets a good amount of activity, I can see this is gonna be a huge thread soon...is there any way we could consolidate our data for future accessibility or something? Otherwise we'd have to do a ton of searching, and it may not even bring up what you had in mind when you find it.
I was thinking of this, too, but I was also thinking that putting every single pairing into the OP would make the OP way too large, on account of the fact that something can and will be used for comparison multiple times, and that even the same two Pokemon can be compared for different reasons...

Do you have a solution, perchance?
 

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