The UU Role Comparison Project

I've been using SubSalac Scolipede a lot lately and it is just monstrous. Swarm really helps to compensate for its low attack and 4x resistance to fighting and grass gives it some good opportunities to set up. The fact that it also absorbs T Spikes is another little bonus.
 

CoolStoryBrobat

The hero Smogon needs, but not the one it deserves
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Though it's kinda similar to my idea I had before, we could use the "standard" Pokemon in UU we've been doing comparisons to, and perhaps list the things they've had compared to them in the OP somewhere? Like for instance, we'd have Heracross listed and then a spoiler tag showing the Pokemon and sets that have been compared to it? Anyway I didn't just bump this thread for the sake of posting a suggestion...

Rotom-C as a Grass-type vs. Shaymin

VS


Rotom-C's Advantages

  • While being a grass-type means you resist Ground-type attacks, Rotom-C has access to Levitiate, which gives you an outright immunity to such attacks as well as Spikes/Toxic Spikes. Less damage in the long run, easier time to switch in on some foes.
  • Secondary Electric-typing helps it deal with some of Shaymin's flying-type checks better, such as Togekiss, Zapdos, and Crobat while giving a neutrality to Flying and adding no extra weaknesses
  • Access to Volt Switch for momentum
  • Somewhat higher SpA, Defense, and SpDef than Shaymin
  • Has status moves in Will-O-Wisp, Toxic, Thunder Wave, and even Trick to cripple foes and offer team support
  • Can run a wider range of sets from Scarf, Specs, Bulky, and even an Expert Belt set to throw opponents off, offering a little bit of unpredictability on top of the fact it's already rarely seen in UU
  • Leaf Storm hits harder and actually has slightly better accuracy than Seed Flare
  • It's a floating possessed lawn mower with a gigantic toothy grin, what better way to make kids do their chores?!
Rotom-C's Disadvantages

  • Significantly lower base HP than Shaymin, meaning the defenses won't help it take hits much better without investment
  • Has to rely on Hidden Power to beat out opposing grass-types, while Shaymin can run Psychic (for dealing with Roserade), or Air Slash to get around them
  • Needs to use Pain Split to regain HP, which isn't always the most reliable form of recovery compared to Shaymin's Synthesis, Natural Cure + Rest, or even Leech Seed
  • Leaf Storm's power drop really cuts (no pun intended) down on its ability to stay in, while Seed Flare inversely cuts down the staying power of whatever switch-in is thrown at Shaymin. (Well, it has a chance to anyway)
  • Much slower than Shaymin, base 86 Speed compared to base 100 is a pretty wide gap
  • Shaymin has the ability Natural Cure, which is a free buffer against status problems that would otherwise leave Rotom-C hanging
  • Shaymin also has Earth Power, which is its best bet against Steels/Fire-types switching in, while Rotom-C would most likely have to switch.
  • It can't even learn Cut. Thanks Smogon, for the misleading name of this forme. :\
 

Kitten Milk

[22:59:31] <KittenUU> 241 of which are fellacious
Natural Cure should probably be mentioned, as well as Earth Power ^

Also, interesting fact. Rotom-C doesn't actually stand for Rotom-Cut, it stands for Rotom-Carrot. The green around it represents the leaves of the carrot, whereas the wheels represent that carrots are a good snack and portable for long road trips. The design came out of a collaboration between a worldwide carrot company looking to draw kids to their products and Game Freak.

That said, carrots are pretty sharp too, so it should learn cut.
 

CoolStoryBrobat

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Natural Cure should probably be mentioned, as well as Earth Power ^

Also, interesting fact. Rotom-C doesn't actually stand for Rotom-Cut, it stands for Rotom-Carrot. The green around it represents the leaves of the carrot, whereas the wheels represent that carrots are a good snack and portable for long road trips. The design came out of a collaboration between a worldwide carrot company looking to draw kids to their products and Game Freak.

That said, carrots are pretty sharp too, so it should learn cut.
Oh yeah, very solid points actually. Rotom-Carrot is much healthier for one's eyesight. I'll go make the edits to my post right kwik.
 

Kitten Milk

[22:59:31] <KittenUU> 241 of which are fellacious
I've done a comparison like this before, but because of the upcoming Froslass suspect, I thought it would be very relevant.


Froslass v. Roserade v. Qwilfish as Spikers

VS
VS


Because this is a little bit different than most comparisons, I think I'll just use a slightly different format, in which I first analyze things they all share and discount them, and then weigh each of their individual properties.

Shared Qualities:
- Access to Spikes (duh)
- Groundedness

Unique/Half-Shared Qualities:

Things shared by Roserade and Qwilfish will be coded BLUE
Things shared by Qwilfish and Froslass will be coded RED


Roserade: Strengths
Natural Cure
Very High SpA/A
High Physical or Special Bulk
Access to Toxic Spikes
85-95 Speed
Immune to Toxic
Absorbs TSpikes
Access to Leech Seed
Access to Synthesis and Rest
Access to Strong stab moves (Leaf Storm)
Access to Sleep Powder

Roserade: Weaknesses and Type/Hazards
Can not run certain combinations of moves.
Weak to Fire/Air/Psychic/Ice - 4 types
Immune to no types.
Resistant to Water/Fighting/Electric - 3 types
Super Resistant to Grass - 1 type
Neutral to 9 types
Neutral to Stealth Rocks
Immune to Toxic Spikes
Immune to Leech Seed




Qwilfish: Strengths
Intimidate
Moderately High SpA/A
Access to Thunder Wave
Access to Destiny Bond
Access to Pain Split
Access to Taunt
High Physical or Special Bulk *inherited* (lower than Roserade because bulk comes from Intimidate partly)
Access to Toxic Spikes
85-95 Speed
Immune to Toxic
Absorbs TSpikes
Access to Haze
Access to Explosion

Qwilfish: Weaknesses and Type/Hazards
Weak to Electric/Psychic/Ground - 3 types
Immune to no types.
Resistant to Fire/Water/Ice/Fighting/Poison/Bug/Steel - 7 types
Super Resistant to nothing - 0 types
Neutral to 7 types
Neutral to Stealth Rocks
Immune to Toxic Spikes


Froslass: Strengths
Cursed Body +5
Moderately High SpA/A
Access to Thunder Wave
Access to Destiny Bond
Access to Pain Split
Access to Taunt
Very High Speed

Froslass: Weaknesses and Type/Hazards
Weak to Rock/Ghost/Dark/Steel/Fire - 5 types
Immune to Fight/Normal - 2 types
Resistant to Ice/Poison/Bug - 3 types
Super Resistant to nothing - 0 types
Neutral to 7 types
Weak to Stealth Rocks
Not immune to Toxic Spikes
 
I think the effort is good but still I pffftt all over my keyboard. You really can't look at individual qualities, you have to consider Pokemon not just in their totality but in their position relative to the meta. Not only that but the weighting you have is really silly. Resisting poison is as good as resisting fire? I think the fact that according to this system Qwilfish and Roserade are nearly twice as good as Frosslass really shows how questionable this method is.

I mean it's a good notion, trying to take this from conjecture to fact but again, you really can't quantify Pokemon this way,
 

Kitten Milk

[22:59:31] <KittenUU> 241 of which are fellacious
Yeah, I recognize it, but I assume it would all balance out in the end. And in fact, the weighting issues you talk about actually harm froslass' rating - Qwilfish has very key resistances to Fire and Fighting for a physical wall, but I completely ignored that fact, whereas Froslass' resistances to Bug and Poison are nigh useless for the metagame.

I guess it comes down to the fact that I mislabled the whole things. It's really a comparison of Froslass v Qwilfish v Roserade in terms of their Utility/Versatility as spikers, not in terms of how good they are. It was intended more to be a starting point, but I now realize the whole point value thing is completely silly so I'll just get rid of all of that. I was just looking for an alternate way to judge and compare various pokemon rather than the circumstantial evidence normally used e.g. "kwilfrish is gud if you switch it in on a victini and it v-creates and stays in and you kikll with watarfall", but you're right, the parts of a pokemon don't make the whole.

Thanks a ton though lovelace, I can get sort of caught up in my own agenda and go over the top sometimes ^^. Editing out point values now :3
 
I'd think that it'd be helpful to mention potential sets in what they can do. For example, a defensive spiker Roserade probably won't be hitting very hard, whereas a more offensive one is definitely more fragile. Roserade cannot be both at the same time, however, as investment makes a big difference, which makes the analyses slightly misleading - though mentioning Roserade's versatility in comparison to the others [not as predictable] might be warranted. Roserade's awful physical defence allows it to drop to a well-aimed loogie, so its resistance to the super-common fighting type attacks means little tbh, while Qwilfish's paltry special defence [and their shared terrible HP] allow them both to meet the same fate.

Criticism aside, looks good! Having their qualities laid out like that is pretty darn helpful.

e: jfc did i seriously say "meat the same fate" wtf
 
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Kay, gonna do a crazy comparison here.

Dusclops as a defensive Ghost-type vs. Cofagrigus

vs.


Dusclops's Advantages

Greater bulk: Dusclops's bulk is much greater than that of Cofagrigus's, which means it can take better hits, especially on the special side. This means that Dusclops can take a barrage of special hits that Cofagrigus can only dream of taking; it can wall the things Cofagrigus can, but also some stronger special attackers such as Zapdos and Specs Kingdra

Pressure: While Cofagrigus's Mummy is a great ability that can neuter threats such as Azumarill and Sharpedo, Dusclops's Pressure still has its uses. This allows Dusclops to stall out the opponent's PP quickly with the mechanics, and its bulk allows it to do this better. Dusclops is very capable of quickly draining away the PP of low PP moves such as Stone Edge, Blizzard, and Fire Blast

Curse: While Cofagrigus gets this move as well, Dusclops's stronger bulk allows it to make greater use of the move, to stall out between this and Pain Split. This is very helpful to place common stallbreakers, such as BU+Rest Scrafty and NP+Heal bell Togekiss on a permanent timer so that they cannot plow through your team very easily, while also wearing down numerous opponents to keep on the stalling pressure. This is also cool to stop the rare Baton Pass teams from accomplishing too much.

Dusclops's Disadvantages

Lack of offensive presence: Cofagrigus has a decent 95 Special Attack to work with, and a usable Shadow Ball to deal decent loads of damage with. Dusclops has low offensive stats, and is forced to rely on Night Shade/Seismic Toss to deal legitimate damage. Although this isn't a superb difference, as the two of them really only use an attacking move to not be Taunt bait.

Lack of Haze: Cofagrigus can entirely reset stat boosts from Pokemon such as SubCM Raikou, and can thus not be as much setup fodder. Dusclops's lack of this move is hurtful, and as such, it can often lead to setup turns, although Curse means they get placed on a timer anyways.

Knock Off: With Knock Off, Cofagrigus is capable of removing Choice Band, LO, etc from the opponent, so it can weaken them or strip them of their passive recovery. Dusclops does not get to do this, unfortunately.
 

Kitten Milk

[22:59:31] <KittenUU> 241 of which are fellacious
In Dusclops v Cofagrigus, the lost item slot needs to be mentioned, but other than that it looks pretty good.
 
How 'bout some more Cofagrigus?

vs.

Cofagrigus vs Beheeyem as Offensive Trick Roomers

Beheeyem's Advantages:

Much Higher SpA stat: Beheeyem has a gret SpA stat than Cofagrigus (125 to 95) meaning it doesn't have to get up a NP to do significant damage

Larger movepool: OTR Cofagrigus is incredibly predictable as it always carries NP/Trick Room/Shadow Ball/HP Fighting while Beheeyem can run moves such as Thunderbolt, Energy Ball, Recover and has some more interesting (if gimicky) moves in power swap, guard swap and miracle eye.

Better ability: While Mummy is nice for robbing mons of their abilities, Analytic is far more useful on a slow offensive pokemon. While it may seem pointless to run it on a mon that's meant to be used in Trick Room, it is able to give it use outside of Trick Room, meaning Beheeyem can set up whenever the situation is adavantagous.

Cofagrigus' Adavantages:

Better bulk: While Beheeyem's 75/75/95 defensives are by no means bad, they pale in comparison to Cofagrigus' 58/145/105 defenses, meaning Cofag has an easier time setting up.

More Utility: Ghost typing gives Cofag the ability to spin block as well as being totally immune to Fighting and resistant to Bug, along with being able to learn support moves like Haze and WoW

Slower Speed: This can be considered both a disavantage and an advantage, but I'll call it and advantage since this is trick room. The lower speed gives guarantees that it can outspeed every mon in UU in TR besides Dusclops (lol). Though Beheeyem is still slower than every mon with 0 IV's and a neg nature, things like TR Snorlax and Slowbro will still outspeed it.

I think Beheeyem could be a hidden gem, as I have seen a ton of OTR Cofags lately, Beheeyem seems like it could do the job just as well, if not better, as well as having a surprise factor and not many people will know what to do against it.
 
Beheeyem's a cool idea, I think I'll try it out for myself. Slowking is another option, it can run Nasty-Room as well.
 
It's also noteworthy that Analytic activates even if the opponent switches out, so Beheeyem is much harder to switch into than Cofagrigus, as the initial power, movepool, and Analytic mean that if the opponent tries to switch into something, they're not going to be able to do so without taking a buttload of damage.

I'll probably edit this with another role comparison later, if I think of one.
 
Sorry for double posting, but here's another comparison.

Registeel as a defensive Steel-type vs. Bronzong

vs.


Registeel's Advantages

Greater Bulk:
Registeel has better bulk on Bronzong on both sides, which means Registeel is sturdier than Bronzong, and hence can take more hits. It can as a result wall some things such as Raikou, Shaymin, and Roserade more effeciently than Bronzong, while still providing team support in Stealth Rock.

Thunder Wave: This move can be incredibly annoying; while they both invite dangerous Pokemon such as Darmanitan and Heracross in for absolutely free, Registeel can invite them and cripple the opponent with Thunder Wave, which is greatly helpful for much slower teams that would like the paralysis support. This can also be rage inducing, and if they get full paralysis then you can wear them down even more in the process.

Clear Body: This prevents anyone from lowering Registeel's stats, and as a result, it can keep its defenses rock solid 100% of the time. What does this mean, you say? This means Registeel can more efficiently wall Shaymin, as Seed Flare won't cut its hard Special Defense in half and can continue to endure repeated onslaughts from it. It also prevents stuff like Crunch from lowering its defense if you'd like to come in on those.

More resistances: This means Registeel can endure Megahorns, Shadow Balls, and Crunches better than Bronzong. This can allow Registeel some more switch-in opportunities.

Registeel's Disadvantages

Lack of offensive presence:
While Bronzong has a decently powerful Gyro Ball to work with, it's still okay in terms of power. Registeel has to rely on Seismic Toss to deal legitimate damage, and this can often lead to Registeel being setup bait at times.

Lack of Levitate: This means that Registeel gets murdered by Ground-types such as Nidoking and Krookodile, while Bronzong is capable of taking anything from them. This is a great disadvantage that Registeel wishes it had. In addition, this means Registeel gets worn down more quickly, as Spikes damage will be hurting it multiple times.

Fighting-type weakness: Registeel has a massive Fighting-type weakness, which is a very bad thing in a tier packed to the brim with Fighting-types. Bronzong does not have this weakness, and can take some hits from Pokemon such as Scarf Mienshao decently.
 

CoolStoryBrobat

The hero Smogon needs, but not the one it deserves
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Sorry for double posting, but here's another comparison.

Registeel as a defensive Steel-type vs. Bronzong

vs.


Registeel's Advantages

Greater Bulk:
Registeel has better bulk on Bronzong on both sides, which means Registeel is sturdier than Bronzong, and hence can take more hits. It can as a result wall some things such as Raikou, Shaymin, and Roserade more effeciently than Bronzong, while still providing team support in Stealth Rock.

Thunder Wave: This move can be incredibly annoying; while they both invite dangerous Pokemon such as Darmanitan and Heracross in for absolutely free, Registeel can invite them and cripple the opponent with Thunder Wave, which is greatly helpful for much slower teams that would like the paralysis support. This can also be rage inducing, and if they get full paralysis then you can wear them down even more in the process.

Clear Body: This prevents anyone from lowering Registeel's stats, and as a result, it can keep its defenses rock solid 100% of the time. What does this mean, you say? This means Registeel can more efficiently wall Shaymin, as Seed Flare won't cut its hard Special Defense in half and can continue to endure repeated onslaughts from it. It also prevents stuff like Crunch from lowering its defense if you'd like to come in on those.

More resistances: This means Registeel can endure Megahorns, Shadow Balls, and Crunches better than Bronzong. This can allow Registeel some more switch-in opportunities.

Registeel's Disadvantages

Lack of offensive presence:
While Bronzong has a decently powerful Gyro Ball to work with, it's still okay in terms of power. Registeel has to rely on Seismic Toss to deal legitimate damage, and this can often lead to Registeel being setup bait at times.

Lack of Levitate: This means that Registeel gets murdered by Ground-types such as Nidoking and Krookodile, while Bronzong is capable of taking anything from them. This is a great disadvantage that Registeel wishes it had. In addition, this means Registeel gets worn down more quickly, as Spikes damage will be hurting it multiple times.

Fighting-type weakness: Registeel has a massive Fighting-type weakness, which is a very bad thing in a tier packed to the brim with Fighting-types. Bronzong does not have this weakness, and can take some hits from Pokemon such as Scarf Mienshao decently.
I like this one, but I think it should also be listed that Bronzong's got a lot more versatility in general thanks to its movepool. Bronzong could (Not 100% viably by all means, but still possibly) run: A Dual Screens set, a Calm Mind set, and even sets with Choice Band/Specs thanks to having moves like Earthquake, Zen Headbutt, Psychic, Hidden Power, Explosion, and Trick in its movepool. The most offensive a Registeel can get is by running a Curse set, which...still ain't all that great, lol. I know the focus of your post was as a defensive steel-type and I just listed a ton of ways for Bronzong to go on offense, but Dual Screens is definitely worth a mention imo.
 

CoolStoryBrobat

The hero Smogon needs, but not the one it deserves
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Sorry for both double posting and necro-ing this thread, but after posting a certain RMT, I figure I may as well leave this here for general consideration:

Gurdurr Vs. Scrafty as Bulk Up Sweepers



Gurdurr's Advantages
  • Useful priority in STAB Mach Punch, can kill off weakened attackers without having to worry about tanking an extra hit
  • Incredibly bulky when holding the Eviolite, it actually has 374/311/327 Defenses with an Eviolite attached, compared to Scrafty's 334/297/361 Defenses, meaning it's got a good bit more HP and can tank some physical hits more easily.
  • Pure Fighting-typing allows Gurdurr to comfortably set up against the Fighting-types who normally scare Scrafty out even if it's at +1, such as Heracross and Mienshao.
  • It has the option of running Ice Punch in order to dispatch threats such as Zapdos, Crobat, Shaymin, and Gligar more effectively without having to fish for more boosts than necessary.
  • Guts allows it to punish status-inflicting Pokemon by making Gurdurr go absolute clutch, especially if it's netted some prior boosts. It also discourages Pokemon from trying to go for such moves in some situations. It also means Gurdurr doesn't have to waste turns trying to hope for its ability to come in and save it from status, which can't always be 100% reliable.
Gurdurr's Disadvantages
  • It lacks the secondary Dark-typing Scrafty has, meaning its more reliable coverage move, Payback, doesn't hit as hard as a STAB Crunch, forcing it to NEED boosts before attempting to deal with most Psychic/Ghost-type checks. It also means Gurdurr is prone to Psychic-type attacks instead of Fighting.
  • Holding an Eviolite forces Gurdurr to forgo any form of passive recovery outside of using boosted Drain Punches to recover HP, which isn't going to break even with the damage it takes unless it's got enough boosts to the point it can sweep. This also makes it more susceptible to status and entry hazards, the latter especially if it's pHazed while attempting to sweep.
  • Gurdurr lacks any means of curing itself of status problems unlike Scrafty, who has the Shed Skin + Rest combo. If Gurdurr is Toxic'd, it's put on a timer and is going to have its sweep cut inevitably short. If it's burned or regular poisoned, it can at least use Drain Punch to try and outstall the passive damage, which can sometimes cause it to fail to avoid some 2HKOes. Paralysis however makes for a happy Gurdurr. : D
  • It is extremely slow. EXTREMELY slow, even moreso than Scrafty. Even the slowest of walls have no issue setting up on Gurdurr if it can't kill them right away
 

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