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Lower Tiers The UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter PK Gaming
- Start date
Electivire for D-Rank is a sham. Here's some calcs to prove that it is strong enough for C-Rank:
252+ Atk Life Orb Electivire Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 166-198 (44.38 - 52.94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Electivire Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Slowbro: 276-328 (70.22 - 83.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Electivire Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 213-255 (63.77 - 76.34%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Electivire Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 179-213 (41.33 - 49.19%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (switching in plus two-non minimum damage rolls means Rhyperior's gone)
Like Electivire 2HKOs or OHKOs everything in the tier, and once its Speed has been boosted, it's rather difficult to set up. Not arguing it should be put in A-Rank or even B-Rank, since it would need more defensive capabilities and be even stronger to pull that off. C-Rank perfectly suits Electivire.
And I could see Piloswine achieving B-Rank even. It's a great Hail Pokemon and a very reliable Stealth Rock setter. The only real thing that holds it back is that nasty Fighting- and Water-type Weakness, even if Eviolite mitigates it to a certain extent.
252+ Atk Life Orb Electivire Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 166-198 (44.38 - 52.94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Electivire Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Slowbro: 276-328 (70.22 - 83.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Electivire Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 213-255 (63.77 - 76.34%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Electivire Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 179-213 (41.33 - 49.19%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (switching in plus two-non minimum damage rolls means Rhyperior's gone)
Like Electivire 2HKOs or OHKOs everything in the tier, and once its Speed has been boosted, it's rather difficult to set up. Not arguing it should be put in A-Rank or even B-Rank, since it would need more defensive capabilities and be even stronger to pull that off. C-Rank perfectly suits Electivire.
And I could see Piloswine achieving B-Rank even. It's a great Hail Pokemon and a very reliable Stealth Rock setter. The only real thing that holds it back is that nasty Fighting- and Water-type Weakness, even if Eviolite mitigates it to a certain extent.
the way i read this is
electvire vs porygon2-evire can only 2hko about 70% of the time due to accuracy and without sr it can only 2hko like 20 or 30% maybe.
evire vs slowvro-cant even get a sure OHKO after spikes and sr with a stab move with absolute max attack bar band
evire vs gligar-one on one evire might actually lose haha because evire cant ohko with a x4 se move with lo and adamant max attack
electivire vs rhyperior-bar crits or something like that rhyperior always wins if at 100% health and evire is at full health too so rhyperior counters evire
keep evire d rank please!! and move mew down to like c rank yeah its overrated uh huh and is only as good as its team.
Most of these threats switch-in on Electivire, usually anticipating a Wild Charge (besides Slowbro). Any reasonable amount of smart play makes these predictions pretty easy. And switching is a thing too. Expecting Electivire to plough through them is just a poor usage of Electivire. It's not a sweeper, but more a wallbreaker, which is why it should be C-Rank. With a small amount of functional support, it can break teams enough to a point where something else can come in and pick up the pieces. D-Rank is typically reserved for shitmons anyways, and Electivire does not belong in that category. It's niche as the only physical Electric-type, besides Eelektross, is enough to warrant C-Rank, as its ability to OHKO specially-bulky Pokemon like Milotic and Togekiss (which neither Raikou or Zapdos can iirc) sets is apart from the likes of Raikou, Zapdos, and Rotom-H.
i just noticed there is no more e rank and if crappy little ferroseed gets c i dont see why not electvire should get c rank but in any case i still say predicting is always easier said than done and you can use a bunch of wall breakers other than evire that are much more reliable like victini!
NOMINATING ELECTIVIRE FOR C RANK (it's not as bad as I thought)
Electivire @ Life Orb
Trait: Motor Drive
EVs: 252 Atk / 44 SpA / 216 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Wild Charge
- Cross Chop
- Earthquake / Flamethrower
- Hidden Power Ice
The EVs assure electivire outspeeds Roserade and its fellow base 90s. Electivire's Wild Charge, when backed by life orb and stab, deals a large amount of damage to many pokemon that do not resist it. Even then, the opposing pokemon will have to deal with Electivire's impressive coverage moves. Cross Chop might ko Snorlax after Stealth Rock damage, 2HKOes Porygon2 and Rhyperior and threatens many steel-types. Earthquake is Electivire's strongest weapon against Darmanitan, Victini and Arcanine, OHKOing them on the switch. However, Flamethrower can be used to threaten Bronzong. Hidden Power Ice 2HKOes Gligar and many Flying-types.
let's not forget that electivire also has a underrated base 95 special attack which can be put to good use with this set:
Electivire @ Life Orb
Trait: Motor Drive
EVs: 92 Atk / 200 SpA / 216 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Grass
- Cross Chop
- Flamethrower / Ice Punch / Earthquake
Just leaving this here:
92 Atk Life Orb Electivire Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 177-208 (47.32 - 55.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
200 SpA Life Orb Electivire Hidden Power Grass vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 374-441 (94.68 - 111.64%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
92 Atk Life Orb Electivire Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 172-203 (51.49 - 60.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
200 SpA Life Orb Electivire Hidden Power Grass vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 338-400 (84.28 - 99.75%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
200 SpA Life Orb Electivire Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Togekiss: 213-252 (56.95 - 67.37%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (while Togekiss can't really do anything back)
92 Atk Life Orb Electivire Cross Chop vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Snorlax: 320-377 (69.41 - 81.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
92 Atk Life Orb Electivire Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 208-247 (64.59 - 76.7%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
92 Atk Life Orb Electivire Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raikou: 307-361 (95.63 - 112.46%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
However Electivire has many notable flaws, such as its not very good Speed stat, poor defenses and the inability to OHKO too many targets, hence why it heavily appreciates Stealth Rock and Spikes support. Don't use it without Accelgor or Crustle
Electivire @ Life Orb
Trait: Motor Drive
EVs: 252 Atk / 44 SpA / 216 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Wild Charge
- Cross Chop
- Earthquake / Flamethrower
- Hidden Power Ice
The EVs assure electivire outspeeds Roserade and its fellow base 90s. Electivire's Wild Charge, when backed by life orb and stab, deals a large amount of damage to many pokemon that do not resist it. Even then, the opposing pokemon will have to deal with Electivire's impressive coverage moves. Cross Chop might ko Snorlax after Stealth Rock damage, 2HKOes Porygon2 and Rhyperior and threatens many steel-types. Earthquake is Electivire's strongest weapon against Darmanitan, Victini and Arcanine, OHKOing them on the switch. However, Flamethrower can be used to threaten Bronzong. Hidden Power Ice 2HKOes Gligar and many Flying-types.
let's not forget that electivire also has a underrated base 95 special attack which can be put to good use with this set:
Electivire @ Life Orb
Trait: Motor Drive
EVs: 92 Atk / 200 SpA / 216 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Grass
- Cross Chop
- Flamethrower / Ice Punch / Earthquake
Just leaving this here:
92 Atk Life Orb Electivire Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 177-208 (47.32 - 55.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
200 SpA Life Orb Electivire Hidden Power Grass vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 374-441 (94.68 - 111.64%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
92 Atk Life Orb Electivire Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 172-203 (51.49 - 60.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
200 SpA Life Orb Electivire Hidden Power Grass vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 338-400 (84.28 - 99.75%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
200 SpA Life Orb Electivire Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Togekiss: 213-252 (56.95 - 67.37%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (while Togekiss can't really do anything back)
92 Atk Life Orb Electivire Cross Chop vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Snorlax: 320-377 (69.41 - 81.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
92 Atk Life Orb Electivire Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 208-247 (64.59 - 76.7%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
92 Atk Life Orb Electivire Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raikou: 307-361 (95.63 - 112.46%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
However Electivire has many notable flaws, such as its not very good Speed stat, poor defenses and the inability to OHKO too many targets, hence why it heavily appreciates Stealth Rock and Spikes support. Don't use it without Accelgor or Crustle
NOMINATING ELECTIVIRE FOR C RANK (it's not as bad as I thought)
Electivire @ Life Orb
Trait: Motor Drive
EVs: 252 Atk / 44 SpA / 216 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Wild Charge
- Cross Chop
- Earthquake / Flamethrower
- Hidden Power Ice
The EVs assure electivire outspeeds Roserade and its fellow base 90s. Electivire's Wild Charge, when backed by life orb and stab, deals a large amount of damage to many pokemon that do not resist it. Even then, the opposing pokemon will have to deal with Electivire's impressive coverage moves. Cross Chop might ko Snorlax after Stealth Rock damage, 2HKOes Porygon2 and Rhyperior and threatens many steel-types. Earthquake is Electivire's strongest weapon against Darmanitan, Victini and Arcanine, OHKOing them on the switch. However, Flamethrower can be used to threaten Bronzong. Hidden Power Ice 2HKOes Gligar and many Flying-types.
let's not forget that electivire also has a underrated base 95 special attack which can be put to good use with this set:
Electivire @ Life Orb
Trait: Motor Drive
EVs: 92 Atk / 200 SpA / 216 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Grass
- Cross Chop
- Flamethrower / Ice Punch / Earthquake
Just leaving this here:
92 Atk Life Orb Electivire Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 177-208 (47.32 - 55.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
200 SpA Life Orb Electivire Hidden Power Grass vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 374-441 (94.68 - 111.64%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
92 Atk Life Orb Electivire Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 172-203 (51.49 - 60.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
200 SpA Life Orb Electivire Hidden Power Grass vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 338-400 (84.28 - 99.75%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
200 SpA Life Orb Electivire Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Togekiss: 213-252 (56.95 - 67.37%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (while Togekiss can't really do anything back)
92 Atk Life Orb Electivire Cross Chop vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Snorlax: 320-377 (69.41 - 81.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
92 Atk Life Orb Electivire Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 208-247 (64.59 - 76.7%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
92 Atk Life Orb Electivire Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raikou: 307-361 (95.63 - 112.46%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
However Electivire has many notable flaws, such as its not very good Speed stat, poor defenses and the inability to OHKO too many targets, hence why it heavily appreciates Stealth Rock and Spikes support. Don't use it without Accelgor or Crustle
While I appreciate the support for Electivire, I can't help but point out the huge flaw with running a Specially-based Electivire. We already have Raikou, Zapdos, and Rotom-H in UU, all of which are potent Electric-types. What distinguishes Electivire from the rest of said Electric-types is his Base 123 Attack stat. Hidden Power Ice on the first set you listed is completely unnecessary, as Ice Punch, which is slightly stronger, plays off of Electivire's higher Attack stat, and still 2HKOs Gligar. I'd also like to point out a correction, but Electivire actually has a base 95 Speed stat. This means that in a pinch, max-Speed Electivire may be able to tie and beat things like LO Darmanitan and Offensive Arcanine. The first set you listed also gave me an idea regarding the output of Fire Punch vs Flamethrower on Electivire. Keep note that Heracross and Bronzong are the only Pokemon that Electivire actually needs a Fire-type move for, as Earthquake, Ice Punch, and Cross Chop already hit the remainder of the Steel-, Ice-, and Grass-type Pokemon available to UU. I ran some calculations to see what it would hit harder:
Fire Punch on my +252 Atk / 252 Spe set:
252+ Atk Life Orb Electivire Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross: 283-335 (94.01 - 111.29%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Electivire Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 146-174 (43.19 - 51.47%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Flamethrower on your 44 SpA / +252 Spe set:
44 SpA Life Orb Electivire Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 187-221 (62.12 - 73.42%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
44 SpA Life Orb Electivire Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bronzong: 159-187 (47.04 - 55.32%) -- 74.22% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
So at the end of the day, the only advantage to running that mixed set over the pure Physical set I listed, is that when using Flamethrower, you get an advantage over one Pokemon, Bronzong. However, in order to do so, even in the case of Fire Punch, you still have to drop one of Electivire's better coverage options. Fun fact though, Heracross is already OHKOed by +252 Atk Wild Charge, but needs Stealth Rock in order to do so. Hasty nature can only 2HKO after Stealth Rock. So at the end of the day, the Fire-type move is really only good for Bronzong, which makes it useless for the most part. I personally believe that Electivire is best suited to take advantage of its large base Attack stat, as its the only reason you'd opt to use it over the likes of Raikou, Zapdos, or even Rotom-H. With the proper hazards support, from as you mentioned, Crustle or Accelgor, Electivire can blow past a ton of Pokemon.
For some reason people seemed to ignore my Piloswine nomination completely, so here it is again. I really think this thing needs to get ranked on here somewhere. It's great.
Well, I think Pilo could be in D ranked at the very least. Gligar has equally, if not better utility than Piloswine. Piloswine does boast a good attack stat, good typing, and priority; however, what Gligar lacks in offensive capabilities it makes up in Defensive Capabilities.
First, Pilo does not have any form of recovery. It lacks leftovers and roost. It sets up rocks about as reliable as Gligar; however, Gligar has further use in a game. Gligar can be worn down, but it can be replenished via Roost. Pilo can check Zapdos and Raikou, yay. Rhyperior does that too....but I think we're all forgetting that it is a ground type. It is meant to check Raikou. Sure, HP Ice beats Gligar and not Pilo, but Pilo can actually switch in on fighting and most scarfed-fire types, whereas Pilo will have a much, much harder time due to its average bulk.
Gligar has U-Turn which is something that is arguably better than Ice Shard. Ice Shard is hitting Flygon and revenging a select few Pokes, whereas Gligar can safely bring in something that is better adept at dishing out hits. Golurk, a fellow NU poke, at least has Dynamic Punch and can spin block. Piloswine can set up rocks about as reliably as any other Poke, lacks the raw power if it invests in bulk, and lacks any recovery.
If you opt to run a bulky stealth rocker, use Rhyperior or Gligar. If you want a powerful SRs, why not just use something like a bulky Nidoqueen? Um sir, Pilo is great, it has a niche, but not big enough to be C-ranked. Gligar can consistently be a problem whereas Pilo won't be.
First, Pilo does not have any form of recovery. It lacks leftovers and roost. It sets up rocks about as reliable as Gligar; however, Gligar has further use in a game. Gligar can be worn down, but it can be replenished via Roost. Pilo can check Zapdos and Raikou, yay. Rhyperior does that too....but I think we're all forgetting that it is a ground type. It is meant to check Raikou. Sure, HP Ice beats Gligar and not Pilo, but Pilo can actually switch in on fighting and most scarfed-fire types, whereas Pilo will have a much, much harder time due to its average bulk.
Gligar has U-Turn which is something that is arguably better than Ice Shard. Ice Shard is hitting Flygon and revenging a select few Pokes, whereas Gligar can safely bring in something that is better adept at dishing out hits. Golurk, a fellow NU poke, at least has Dynamic Punch and can spin block. Piloswine can set up rocks about as reliably as any other Poke, lacks the raw power if it invests in bulk, and lacks any recovery.
If you opt to run a bulky stealth rocker, use Rhyperior or Gligar. If you want a powerful SRs, why not just use something like a bulky Nidoqueen? Um sir, Pilo is great, it has a niche, but not big enough to be C-ranked. Gligar can consistently be a problem whereas Pilo won't be.
Update:
I know this might piss some of you off, but Piloswine will be put into D-rank for now. It has a niche in this metagame as being a 100% Electric type counter, but outside of that, it is not a good pokemon. It has 0 versatility(runs Ice Shard/Stealth Rock/EQ/Icicle Crash 100% of the time) meaning it is very easy to play around, and gets wrecked by fighting and bulky water types, two of the most common typings in the tier. No recovery is the nail in the coffin for this dude, as it is hard to even keep him healthy long enough to check Electric types if the opponent saves it until lategame.
Smeargle from C ==> B rank. With Froslass gone, Smeargle has turned into probably the second best hazard setter in the tier. With the main Taunt user in the tier gone, almost 100% of the time Smeargle gets up one layer of hazards and puts something to sleep. Still not A-Rank material, but it could be in the future.
Qwilfish from B==> A rank. Any spiker that was slower than Froslass got 100% better when she got banned, and now Qwilfish is probably the best spiker in the tier. It's great typing, ability, movepool, and the ability to set up on some of the most dangerous pokemon in the tier make it an A-rank pokemon now that it no longer gives Froslass a free setup opportunity.
I know this might piss some of you off, but Piloswine will be put into D-rank for now. It has a niche in this metagame as being a 100% Electric type counter, but outside of that, it is not a good pokemon. It has 0 versatility(runs Ice Shard/Stealth Rock/EQ/Icicle Crash 100% of the time) meaning it is very easy to play around, and gets wrecked by fighting and bulky water types, two of the most common typings in the tier. No recovery is the nail in the coffin for this dude, as it is hard to even keep him healthy long enough to check Electric types if the opponent saves it until lategame.
Smeargle from C ==> B rank. With Froslass gone, Smeargle has turned into probably the second best hazard setter in the tier. With the main Taunt user in the tier gone, almost 100% of the time Smeargle gets up one layer of hazards and puts something to sleep. Still not A-Rank material, but it could be in the future.
Qwilfish from B==> A rank. Any spiker that was slower than Froslass got 100% better when she got banned, and now Qwilfish is probably the best spiker in the tier. It's great typing, ability, movepool, and the ability to set up on some of the most dangerous pokemon in the tier make it an A-rank pokemon now that it no longer gives Froslass a free setup opportunity.
Nominating Xatu for B-rank
1) Xatu counters the likes of sableye, bronzong, almost any mew set, claydol, hitmontop and pretty much all shaymin sets.
2) It 4x resists the most common offensive type in the tier, fighting.
3) W/ u-turn, xatu is also a powerful momentum gainer.
4) It's insanely versatile. It can run physically defensive, specially defensive, LO offensive, trick scarf, offensive scarf, specs and even rocky helmet effectively. Thus, it's insanely hard to play around with as you can only guess what it's gonna do
5) Solid movepool containing t-wave, toxic, night shade, grass knot, trick, u-turn, roost and psyshock.
6) Now that froslass is gone, it shuts down an even greater precentage of hazard setters.
7) It has fucking magic bounce, hands down one of the best abilities in the game.
1) Xatu counters the likes of sableye, bronzong, almost any mew set, claydol, hitmontop and pretty much all shaymin sets.
2) It 4x resists the most common offensive type in the tier, fighting.
3) W/ u-turn, xatu is also a powerful momentum gainer.
4) It's insanely versatile. It can run physically defensive, specially defensive, LO offensive, trick scarf, offensive scarf, specs and even rocky helmet effectively. Thus, it's insanely hard to play around with as you can only guess what it's gonna do
5) Solid movepool containing t-wave, toxic, night shade, grass knot, trick, u-turn, roost and psyshock.
6) Now that froslass is gone, it shuts down an even greater precentage of hazard setters.
7) It has fucking magic bounce, hands down one of the best abilities in the game.
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Supporting Xatu for B-Rank, with Froslass gone it's a lot more effective at hazard bouncing. It's a pretty lackluster Pokemon on its own, but Magic Bounce is a great ability, and it has good support and offensive options alike, so it can support its team or you can run offensive Xatu for surprise factor. if your team dislikes hazards Xatu is a pretty good fit, and U-turn is also a great move, so Xatu is a hazard preventer that won't kill your momentum. B-Rank looks good.
And yay my Qwilfish nom finally happened.
Also Ditto should probably be placed in D-Rank; it has a niche but it's a pretty situational mon.
And yay my Qwilfish nom finally happened.
Also Ditto should probably be placed in D-Rank; it has a niche but it's a pretty situational mon.
I'd also like to see Xatu in B-Rank. Without Froslass, it actually blocks hazards, even from stuff like Nidoqueen. Like Scrafty said, it's pretty lackluster on its own, but there are several pokemon in UU that benefit nicely from it, such as Yanmega, Darmanitan, or even non-SR weak pokemon like we see in Reach's Porygon-Z team. Xatu can lure, it can be decent at sponging attacks (especially from Shaymin!), it has U-turn, instant recovery, and I think there's just too much going for it to stay in C-rank for much longer, especially with Froslass gone.
Also for Piloswine, if it gets ranked at all, I'd like to see it down in D-rank. It's just /too/ situational, imho. It can beat Zapdos and Raikou, as well as check Flygon, but past this it doesn't really have many uses in UU. It just doesn't counter or check a big enough portion of the metagame, IMHO, and there are several pokemon (ie: RD Kingdra, Azumaril, CB Heracross) that are going to get in and benefit pretty hard from forcing Piloswine to switch.
Also for Piloswine, if it gets ranked at all, I'd like to see it down in D-rank. It's just /too/ situational, imho. It can beat Zapdos and Raikou, as well as check Flygon, but past this it doesn't really have many uses in UU. It just doesn't counter or check a big enough portion of the metagame, IMHO, and there are several pokemon (ie: RD Kingdra, Azumaril, CB Heracross) that are going to get in and benefit pretty hard from forcing Piloswine to switch.
Pilo definitely isn't a bad Poke, I just feel like it lacks utility. Gligar, for example, is given a bunch of shit for being "set up fodder," where in actuality, U-Turn and instant recovery make Gligar not a a liability for teams. Pilo kind of doesn't do too much work if a team lacks an electric type.
I dont see the point in being against Piloswine being in C-Rank. If you think that it can only check electric types and Flygon but not much else you haven't really use it, or well imo. It's incredibly bulky and has base 100 atk with incredible STABs, there is really no reason to refute; because again if you do you really have used it.
If Pilowswine is being put into D-Rank, then I'd like to suggest a modification to D-Rank by splitting it into D+ and D- Ranks. It's not for the purpose that E-Rank had, but there's a wide spectrum in the D-Rank of semi-decent Pokemon that require just the extra push in support (ie, Electivire) and total garbage, see Claydol and Dusclops. This allows there to be a middle ground between the current C- and D-Ranks, since a lot of these rankings aren't true descriptors of what these Pokemon are capable of. Pilowswine is not as bad as you've made it out to be Psychotic, but it's still not nearly as good as we'd like it to be for the aforementioned reasons. However, I do believe that D-Ranking many of these Pokemon, especially alongside the ranks of Dusclops, Ambipom, and Claydol is too much of a low-blow to how that Pokemon performs. C-Rank is chock-full of "shitmons" too, specifically Ferroseed and Registeel, that only have one or two specific uses, and aren't any good.
Provided the changes are made, this is how I'd believe the new D+ and D--Ranks would look:
D+-Rank:
-Ambipom
-Ferroseed
-Electivire
-Pilowswine
-Registeel
D--Rank:
-Cryogonal
-Claydol
-Dusclops
-Riolu
Just sorta spitballing there, but I personally don't believe that neither Electivire or Pilowswine should be ranked alongside the typical shitmons in D-Tier if the likes of Ferroseed and Registeel can pull C-Ranks.
Provided the changes are made, this is how I'd believe the new D+ and D--Ranks would look:
D+-Rank:
-Ambipom
-Ferroseed
-Electivire
-Pilowswine
-Registeel
D--Rank:
-Cryogonal
-Claydol
-Dusclops
-Riolu
Just sorta spitballing there, but I personally don't believe that neither Electivire or Pilowswine should be ranked alongside the typical shitmons in D-Tier if the likes of Ferroseed and Registeel can pull C-Ranks.
Actually Dusclops isn't that bad (and its definitely better than Ambipom and Claydol). Dusclops is a pretty good wall, boasting impressive 284 / 591 / 444 defenses after the Eviolite boost. From my experience, Dusclops was able to counter the things that it should counter (Machamp, Mienshao, Snorlax etc.) unlike Gligar. Curse is a pretty useful move that Dusclops has access to, as it basically forces the foe to switch out, and unlike other curse users, Dusclops has the bulk to take one or two hits after its used Curse. It also has the ability to spinblock, which is a plus. If it were up to me, I would move it up to mid C-Rank because of these pros, but it should be at the very least, Top D-Rank.
Edit: I also Support moving Xatu up to B-Rank. Its very good in the current metagame and can beat nearly every common hazard setter in the tier.
Edit: I also Support moving Xatu up to B-Rank. Its very good in the current metagame and can beat nearly every common hazard setter in the tier.
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I'm wondering if Virizion is good enough to go from B --> A.
Virizion is truly amazing in UU, and the versatility she possesses is amazing. Calm Mind, Swords Dance, fully defensive, Expert Belt and ability to use any of the choice items fairly effectively means you can never know what she will use on you when you are facing her, and the power that she has behind all of the sets is just fantastic. She has great defensive AND offensive typing, and thankfully she gets both Stone Edge and Hidden Power Rock to fix the main cracks in her offensive STAB combination. I think she is definitely good enough to get into A rank. Your thoughts?
Virizion is truly amazing in UU, and the versatility she possesses is amazing. Calm Mind, Swords Dance, fully defensive, Expert Belt and ability to use any of the choice items fairly effectively means you can never know what she will use on you when you are facing her, and the power that she has behind all of the sets is just fantastic. She has great defensive AND offensive typing, and thankfully she gets both Stone Edge and Hidden Power Rock to fix the main cracks in her offensive STAB combination. I think she is definitely good enough to get into A rank. Your thoughts?
I think it's kind of a waste of time to put the D rank into subranks. I mean, just because I see something in D+ doesn't make me feel as if it's any less garbage than D-. I'll still use Claydol no matter what anyone says, I'm peaking the ladder with or without Claydol D:
Virizion should be A-ranked. With the banning of Froslass, base 108 speed is seemingly faster than it once was. A huge threat was taken out from its list. The only Poke that really threaten it are: Strong Physical Scarfers (Darmanitan and Victini), and Crobat. Virizion has really good special defense and special defensive typing. With Grass, it can resist the common Scald, a godsend to Physical Sweepers. I haven't seen too many Lum Swords Dances set until recently, but I have been using this set for about 6-7 months now (before it was discovered, I'm too Hipster yo), and it really just destroys stall teams. The only hard counter IMO is physically defensive Amoongus and Crobat. It can be used as a special Pivot, much like how Snorlax is used.
The Calm Mind set is actually really good if you get 1 boost up; however, the reliance of Focus Blast is what deters me from praising this set. The Work Up set works in the similar fashion, as the moves can be easily predicted around. The Expert Belt set works like the Mixed Set; however, the base 90s in Offensive stats are kind of underwhelming, imo.
The only downside of Virizion is that you really need a turn to set up before you can start doing work. Other than that, I think Virizion should be A-ranked because it basically destroys stall teams after a boost and can sweep unprepared teams with ease.
Virizion should be A-ranked. With the banning of Froslass, base 108 speed is seemingly faster than it once was. A huge threat was taken out from its list. The only Poke that really threaten it are: Strong Physical Scarfers (Darmanitan and Victini), and Crobat. Virizion has really good special defense and special defensive typing. With Grass, it can resist the common Scald, a godsend to Physical Sweepers. I haven't seen too many Lum Swords Dances set until recently, but I have been using this set for about 6-7 months now (before it was discovered, I'm too Hipster yo), and it really just destroys stall teams. The only hard counter IMO is physically defensive Amoongus and Crobat. It can be used as a special Pivot, much like how Snorlax is used.
The Calm Mind set is actually really good if you get 1 boost up; however, the reliance of Focus Blast is what deters me from praising this set. The Work Up set works in the similar fashion, as the moves can be easily predicted around. The Expert Belt set works like the Mixed Set; however, the base 90s in Offensive stats are kind of underwhelming, imo.
The only downside of Virizion is that you really need a turn to set up before you can start doing work. Other than that, I think Virizion should be A-ranked because it basically destroys stall teams after a boost and can sweep unprepared teams with ease.
I'm going to support Virizion for A rank 100%, Imo its one of the best sd users atm. Grass/ Fighting is a good typing and it has Decent bulk to live a few weak hits ank ko in Return (Depending on poke) Its 108 speed is really fast since froslass got banned. It can also use calm mind and work up sets but imo Sd is the best atm. Can really tear apart teams if their scarfer goes down.
About the Electivire talk, Its a meh pokemon at best imo. The imunity is way too predictable and stuff like sub cm Raikou can sub on the switch and Get 2 free hits on it or a cm even. It doesnt have the best bulk either... It can work don't get me wrong but it doesn't do anything truely great.
About the Electivire talk, Its a meh pokemon at best imo. The imunity is way too predictable and stuff like sub cm Raikou can sub on the switch and Get 2 free hits on it or a cm even. It doesnt have the best bulk either... It can work don't get me wrong but it doesn't do anything truely great.
I really can't see why Virizion is justified in moving up to A-rank. Under the right circumstances it can be threatening, but it needs an incredible amount of support to pull this off, moreso that other A-Rank Pokemon, imo.
The Calm Mind set needing to rely on Focus Blast is really off-putting for me. Its most powerful and reliable STAB attack is Giga Drain, which is much weaker than the other Calm Minders you see in the tier (See: Suicune's Hydro Pump and even Scald + burn chance, Meloetta's Hyper Voice and Psychic/Psyshock, Raikou's Thunderbolt.) Also, no matter which Hidden Power you choose, you're going to miss out on coverage against something. With HP Rock you miss out on beating Offensive Roserade, Air Slash Shaymin, while with Ice you lose to Chandelure.
The Swords Dance set seems really good on paper, but in practice it has left me wanting every single time. Base 90 Attack with a neutral nature really isn't that powerful when you've got things like SD Heracross, Mew, and Weavile in the tier to use. It's also not cool that a large portion of the pokemon you would attempt to switch-in on and set up on (read as: Bulky Waters) have the potential to burn you, pretty much forcing you to run Lum Berry while the other pokemon that I just listed can run things like Leftovers + Guts, Life Orb, or Focus Sash instead. It just puts Virizion at a further disadvantage to other Swords Dancers. SD Virizion's Coverage isn't all the greatest either. Leaf Blade + Close Combat leaves you totally walled by Flying-types and Chandelure, which pretty much forces you to run Stone Edge as your coverage option. Non-STAB Stone Edge, in addition to its shaky accuracy, is not powerful when coming off of base 90 Attack that isn't backed up by Life orb. The Flying-types you're supposed to eliminate, like Togekiss or Zapdos are going to survive a hit and either Air Slash, HP Flying, or Heat Wave you for the KO.
There are also SEVERAL fast pokemon that will offensively check you no matter what set you use. Common scarfers (Darmanitan, Mienshao, Meloetta, Chandelure), Flying-types (Crobat, Tornadus, Yanmega) PLUS Weavile and Azelf really just make it difficult for any Virizion to not just find the time to set up, but also to exploit it and actually pull off a sweep.
Also, can somebody explain Work Up Virizion to me? I don't see the point in it, but this may be due to me never using it/having played a good one. I just feel like other mixed attackers in the tier are superior to Work Up Virizion. (see: Work Up Meloetta, Return Pory-Z, Mixed Victini, Abomasnow, etc.)
So yeah, I feel like Virizion is fine where it is in B-Rank.
The Calm Mind set needing to rely on Focus Blast is really off-putting for me. Its most powerful and reliable STAB attack is Giga Drain, which is much weaker than the other Calm Minders you see in the tier (See: Suicune's Hydro Pump and even Scald + burn chance, Meloetta's Hyper Voice and Psychic/Psyshock, Raikou's Thunderbolt.) Also, no matter which Hidden Power you choose, you're going to miss out on coverage against something. With HP Rock you miss out on beating Offensive Roserade, Air Slash Shaymin, while with Ice you lose to Chandelure.
The Swords Dance set seems really good on paper, but in practice it has left me wanting every single time. Base 90 Attack with a neutral nature really isn't that powerful when you've got things like SD Heracross, Mew, and Weavile in the tier to use. It's also not cool that a large portion of the pokemon you would attempt to switch-in on and set up on (read as: Bulky Waters) have the potential to burn you, pretty much forcing you to run Lum Berry while the other pokemon that I just listed can run things like Leftovers + Guts, Life Orb, or Focus Sash instead. It just puts Virizion at a further disadvantage to other Swords Dancers. SD Virizion's Coverage isn't all the greatest either. Leaf Blade + Close Combat leaves you totally walled by Flying-types and Chandelure, which pretty much forces you to run Stone Edge as your coverage option. Non-STAB Stone Edge, in addition to its shaky accuracy, is not powerful when coming off of base 90 Attack that isn't backed up by Life orb. The Flying-types you're supposed to eliminate, like Togekiss or Zapdos are going to survive a hit and either Air Slash, HP Flying, or Heat Wave you for the KO.
There are also SEVERAL fast pokemon that will offensively check you no matter what set you use. Common scarfers (Darmanitan, Mienshao, Meloetta, Chandelure), Flying-types (Crobat, Tornadus, Yanmega) PLUS Weavile and Azelf really just make it difficult for any Virizion to not just find the time to set up, but also to exploit it and actually pull off a sweep.
Also, can somebody explain Work Up Virizion to me? I don't see the point in it, but this may be due to me never using it/having played a good one. I just feel like other mixed attackers in the tier are superior to Work Up Virizion. (see: Work Up Meloetta, Return Pory-Z, Mixed Victini, Abomasnow, etc.)
So yeah, I feel like Virizion is fine where it is in B-Rank.
SD Heracross is more easily revenged than Virizion. Mew only has one STAB to choose from...and it cannot do much to Sableye or Cofag if it does not attack (Assuming it's the SD, Zen, Sucker, and Drain). The best SD Set is with Lum. A lot of physical sweepers keep Lum berry as an option, it allows it to dodge one potentially debilitating status.
And if you didn't know, a lot of Set up sweepers are revenged by scarfed darm, etc....like Weavile, even at +2 and a LO, it can't exactly do much to a scarfed Darm. What exactly is your argument? They are called Revenge Killers for a reason.
Your argument about having an unSTAB Stone Edge is pretty not that great. You already have TWO STABs, Leaf Blade and Close Combat. Stone Edge is almost always used as coverage (Think, Heracross and Mienshao). Shaky Acc? Megahorn has 5% more acc. If you think that's "a lot better," than opt to run Sludge Wave on Nidoqueen juxtaposed to another coverage move. The Power Difference between Epower and Sludge Wave is practically negligible.
Virizon also breaks down many common cores, such as Slowbro + Umbreon, or Blastoise + Special Wall.
Work Up Virizon is just another all out attacker. It allows you to hit things like Swampert really hard, while not being walled by Snorlax. I didn't think there was an issue there.
Also, you're not supposed to be coming in to poke holes into teams, Virizion is best used as a late game sweeper since it has respectable speed, good bulk, and great physical movepool.
Virizion is one of the best Physical Sweepers in the Meta right now (Using Swords Dance).
If Qwilfish is moving to A since Froslass got banned, so should Virizion. Froslass was a huge pain in Viz's side since it had to rely on Leaf Blade not getting haxed, and if it did, it HAS to hit a Stone Edge. This is not accounting for the fact that Froslass could threaten it out with STAB Ice Beam/Blizzard.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-46069689
A good player getting swept by Virizion once you get to +2.
Leaf Blade on Rhyperior, CC on Emp, Stone Edge on Moth. GG. Viz for A!
And if you didn't know, a lot of Set up sweepers are revenged by scarfed darm, etc....like Weavile, even at +2 and a LO, it can't exactly do much to a scarfed Darm. What exactly is your argument? They are called Revenge Killers for a reason.
Your argument about having an unSTAB Stone Edge is pretty not that great. You already have TWO STABs, Leaf Blade and Close Combat. Stone Edge is almost always used as coverage (Think, Heracross and Mienshao). Shaky Acc? Megahorn has 5% more acc. If you think that's "a lot better," than opt to run Sludge Wave on Nidoqueen juxtaposed to another coverage move. The Power Difference between Epower and Sludge Wave is practically negligible.
Virizon also breaks down many common cores, such as Slowbro + Umbreon, or Blastoise + Special Wall.
Work Up Virizon is just another all out attacker. It allows you to hit things like Swampert really hard, while not being walled by Snorlax. I didn't think there was an issue there.
Also, you're not supposed to be coming in to poke holes into teams, Virizion is best used as a late game sweeper since it has respectable speed, good bulk, and great physical movepool.
Virizion is one of the best Physical Sweepers in the Meta right now (Using Swords Dance).
If Qwilfish is moving to A since Froslass got banned, so should Virizion. Froslass was a huge pain in Viz's side since it had to rely on Leaf Blade not getting haxed, and if it did, it HAS to hit a Stone Edge. This is not accounting for the fact that Froslass could threaten it out with STAB Ice Beam/Blizzard.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-46069689
A good player getting swept by Virizion once you get to +2.
Leaf Blade on Rhyperior, CC on Emp, Stone Edge on Moth. GG. Viz for A!
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