The UU Viability Ranking Thread

[Punchshroom]

The thing with Virizion is that its mediocre offenses emphasize the importance in boosting: an unboosted Virizion is pretty weak. Other setup sweepers boast more than 90/90/108 sweeper stats, usually by a longshot. Even though Virizion has good defensive typing, it doesn't have a great support movepool; Cobalion, while just as weak, has Stealth Rock and Volt Switch to aid the team. Thus, Virizion is stuck as a boosting sweeper, not that it's bad, but it kinda needs the boost. It does great against more defensive teams which are weak to its STAB combination, but against faster offensive teams that have fast/break-neck speed pokemon, Virizion may not be able to find time to boost and may not hit hard enough as a result.

 

[TPO3]

SD Heracross is more easily revenged than Virizion. Mew only has one STAB to choose from...and it cannot do much to Sableye or Cofag if it does not attack (Assuming it's the SD, Zen, Sucker, and Drain). The best SD Set is with Lum. A lot of physical sweepers keep Lum berry as an option, it allows it to dodge one potentially debilitating status.

Heracross might be more easily revenged, but while in, it does a hell of a lot more damage than Virizion does with its base 125 Attack, potentially guts, as well as a secondary STAB in Megahorn. Mew also might have only one STAB, but it has the potential to lure and KO pokemon that normally beat it (luring in special walls only to get smacked by +2 Zen Headbutt.) Mew also has priority in Sucker Punch which, while shaky on reliability, is very nice to have when you can OHKO things that would commonly revenge kill Mew, like Flygon or Yanmega. Virizion doesn't have this option, it just gets forced out repeatedly.

And if you didn't know, a lot of Set up sweepers are revenged by scarfed darm, etc....like Weavile, even at +2 and a LO, it can't exactly do much to a scarfed Darm. What exactly is your argument? They are called Revenge Killers for a reason.

You're missing the point. It's not that Virizion loses to common Scarfers, it's that Virizion is forced out by common scarfers in addition to several common pokemon which I listed in the above post. There are so many ways to force Virizion out due to its typing and it's lame physical bulk. Other physical sweepers (like Heracross and Mew!!) don't suffer from this.

Your argument about having an unSTAB Stone Edge is pretty not that great. You already have TWO STABs, Leaf Blade and Close Combat. Stone Edge is almost always used as coverage (Think, Heracross and Mienshao). Shaky Acc? Megahorn has 5% more acc.

Did you even read my last post? The part about the shaky accuracy is completely irrelevant, it's just another thing that's added to the problems Virizion already has. Instead you chose to pick out that minute part of my argument and use it as the entire basis of this paragraph. I'm not stupid, I realize that Stone Edge is for coverage purposes, which was the entire reason for that paragraph in my argument. You're forced to run Stone Edge which is /not/ that powerful when the only pokemon you're fast enough to outspeed and try to KO with it have a strong chance of surviving your hit. (See: SubRoost Zapdos, Physically Defensive Togekiss). The other Flying-types in the tier are completely irrelevant because they will outspeed you and KO you. Nobody is dumb enough to switch a Tornadus into something that potentially has Stone Edge because its so frail, and Crobat can come in at will anyways because unboosted Stone Edge to a Crobat that runs a MINIMUM of 136 HP doesn't even OHKO with Stealth Rock up. (At which point Crobat just spams roost)

If you think that's "a lot better," than opt to run Sludge Wave on Nidoqueen juxtaposed to another coverage move. The Power Difference between Epower and Sludge Wave is practically negligible.

...How the hell is this even relevant? I see absolutely zero correlation between me thinking Megahorn is 'a lot better' due to 5% more accuracy, and using Sludge Wave over Earth Power. I don't even know where the hell you are pulling this from. BTW, Sludge Wave is SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE that Earth Power because you are inviting Steel-types and Ground-types in for free, but more importantly, you let Ghost-types in for free, specifically Chandelure.

Also, Megahorn is a lot better better than Stone Edge because while having 5% more accuracy, after you factor in the fact that Heracross gets STAB while Virizion doesn't, Megahorn is almost twice as powerful.

Sorry if I seem angry/annoyed, I just feel as though you blatantly ignored the majority of my post.

Also, you're not supposed to be coming in to poke holes into teams, Virizion is best used as a late game sweeper since it has respectable speed, good bulk, and great physical movepool.

If you're going to argue that Virizion should be A-rank because it does work late-game when all its counters are removed, that's crap. You can argue the same thing about any other pokemon in the tier. (ie: SD Bisharp wrecking shit once you remove Gligar, anything with Substitute, and Fighting-types.) It's all about the amount of support you need to break the opposing team in such a way to allow you to sweep, how many opportunities you have to set up, and how consistently you can actually pull it off.

Virizion is one of the best Physical Sweepers in the Meta right now (Using Swords Dance).

There are several physical threats that sweep better than SD Virizion. Examples are SD Mew, DD Kingdra. These two pokemon are higher-ranked because they require a lot less support either due to superior STAB combinations, having less exploitable weaknesses than Virizion, and because they can find multiple opportunities to set up and wreck stuff in a game. There are several other physical sweepers that do a much better job than Virizion (see: DD Scrafty, SD Weavile, SD Cobalion, and more.) but I'm not going to bother listing every single one because that would take hours.

Virizon also breaks down many common cores, such as Slowbro + Umbreon, or Blastoise + Special Wall.

If you're 'not poking holes', like you said in earlier, then why do you brag about how Virizion does such a great job at breaking down defensive cores, like in the quote above? IN addition, Heracross breaks both of these two cores down SIGNIFICANTLY better because of its offensively superior Bug-type STAB, its exceedingly superior base Attack stat (125 vs 90), and Guts. Which is why I recommended Heracross in the first place. It breaks down corse significantly better than Virizion does.

Work Up Virizon is just another all out attacker. It allows you to hit things like Swampert really hard, while not being walled by Snorlax. I didn't think there was an issue there.

Because Leaf Blade and Close Combat apparently don't hit these two hard enough. You didn't even explain why Virizion is a better option over any of the pokemon that I suggested in my previous post.

If Qwilfish is moving to A since Froslass got banned, so should Virizion. Froslass was a huge pain in Viz's side since it had to rely on Leaf Blade not getting haxed, and if it did, it HAS to hit a Stone Edge. This is not accounting for the fact that Froslass could threaten it out with STAB Ice Beam/Blizzard.

Qwilfish isn't A-rank because Froslass got banned, Qwilfish is A-rank because it's a great pokemon to use to answer physical Fire-types and Fighting-types which dominate this metagame. Qwilfish also provides paralysis support, which is huge when some of your most common switch-ins are Zapdos and Raikou, which again, dominate this metagame. Froslass getting banned just happens to be at the same time as Qwilfish getting pushed up a rank, although the fact that Qwilfish is now one of like three viable Spikers in the entire metagame certainly doesn't hurt it.

Also if you're going to post logs, post a log where the Virizion player has to actually try in order to win. His opponent let the Virizion come in completely for free, and then proceeded to let it set up to +2 completely for free. Not to mention the fact that he didn't run anything at all faster than base 100 speed. I'd win games too if I had team matchups that were that heavily in my favor.

 

[Magcargo]

I really don't care where virizion ends up at, but just to clarify, Qwilfish IS A-Rank beacuse frosslass got banned, not because Fire and Fighting-types dominate the metagame. Frosslass being banned is the main reason why PsYch071c moved it up. Here is the Original post

Qwilfish from B==> A rank. Any spiker that was slower than Froslass got 100% better when she got banned, and now Qwilfish is probably the best spiker in the tier. It's great typing, ability, movepool, and the ability to set up on some of the most dangerous pokemon in the tier make it an A-rank pokemon now that it no longer gives Froslass a free setup opportunity.

 

[Aecor]

The point about Sludge Wave over Epower was the base power...which is 5%...which is in relation to the acc between Stone Edge and Sludge Wave sir.

Weavile is also walled by a lot of Pokes, namely Defensive Arcanine, Hitmontop (Which people give too much hate to even though it checks Weavile pretty well).

And Giga Drain allows Virizion to gain back some HP, something that a lot of Pokes would like. If you didn't know, a lot of top dogs actually run Giga Drain on their Mew Sets for the sole purpose of trying to gain some HP while inflicting damage.

The rest of your "counter" arguments are really just a waste of my time. You fail to lack the point that Virizion makes when setting up. For example, what Raikou is going to sweep a healthy team when a Fatass Snorlax is laying in the wings?

And about Virizion having to set up. While yes, Virizion has to set up in order to do work, Virizion can also work as a special pivot switch. Also, with Virzion's list of Pokes it can switch into, it can often get that Swords Dance up. Basically all Defensive Bulky Waters, Specs Raikou not locked into Extrasensory, Umbreon, Defensive Cobalion, Defensive Zapdos that lacks HP Flying, SubSeed Shaymin, Spikes Roserade and a lot more. Just too lazy to list, but this is assuming Viz has Lum.

Also, isn't Kingdra only slightly more powerful? But with STABs that are a bit less accurate? Think about it: Unboosted 95/95 vs 90/90. Kingdra, if using the most reliable moves, go for Dragon Pulse + Surf, whereas Hydro/Draco are <100 acc. Outrage + Waterfall have basically the same BP as CC + Leaf Blade, and it is also walled by certain pokes, IE Emp, Slowking, etc etc. Kingdra can go Special or Physical or even Mixed (Offensive DD with Draco), Viz can do the same.

Are people just band-wagon-ing because Kingdra is considered a "threat" in the UU meta?

 

[Punchshroom]

Comparing Kingdra to Virizion is iffy considering Kingdra has stronger attacks, speed boosting moves and a much better STAB combination.

Virizion seems okay but you said it yourself: it needs to boost. This means that even though it predicts the Crobat, Scarf Victini or Heracross switch-in and Stone Edges, chances are it won't do the trick. I can compare Virizion with Durant, a pokemon that also boosts to function, except Durant hits really damn hard even before the boost, and can equip Choice items without losing its effectiveness. As for Virizion's typing, it's a double-edged sword: it can hit a good amount of defensive cores for super effective damage, but since Grass + Fighting is resisted by Bug, Poison and most importantly Flying, Virizion's coverage move won't be enough to cover for this. Oh, and non-Life orb Virizion can fail to net a good amount of kills: it only OHKOes offensive Snorlax with Close Combat 25% of the time, only has a ~30% chance to OHKO Chandy with Stone Edge / +1 Hidden Power Rock after Stealth Rock, only OHKO 252 HP / 56 Def Togekiss ~35% of the time with +2 Stone Edge, nothing it has threatens Crobat enough on the switch even after SR, misses out on the 2HKO against OTR Cofagrigus with +2 Leaf Blade (much less defensive Cofag), doesn't 2HKO offensive / defensive Roserade with +0 / +1 Hidden Power Ice respectively, and others. Even with LO you fail to OHKO Flygon with any unboosted attack bar HP Ice, cannot setup on Bronzong of all things, and CM sets will pretty much lose to Togekiss every time, while SD sets have to worry about Scald. If Gligar starts running Aerial Ace to deal with Heracross, Virizion loses to it too. Sub-setup sets are a neat idea, but unlike Raikou and Chandelure (SubSplit), its STABs do not net great coverage by themselves, making it less revenge-killable but more easily walled.

Couple that with the fact that almost every common Scarfer carries a Fire- (Victini) or Flying-type move (Mienshao), while naturally faster pokemon know Flying- (Crobat), Ice- (Weavile and mixed Sharpedo) or Psychic-attacks (Azelf, Raikou), and Virizion could have a pretty tough time if it is outsped.

 

[Aecor]

Kingdra has comparable STABs, no? In either case, I think it should be A-ranked. Any Poke that was hampered by Froslass should be relooked, eg Xatu.

Do you guys think that Qwilfish will be the new Spiker of UU? Or would it be Roserade back in the old days of Deoxy-D?

 

[Trainer Au]

Kingdra has comparable STABs, no? In either case, I think it should be A-ranked. Any Poke that was hampered by Froslass should be relooked, eg Xatu.

Do you guys think that Qwilfish will be the new Spiker of UU? Or would it be Roserade back in the old days of Deoxy-D?

Kingdra has waay better stabs than viriz. Draco, Hydro, Waterfall, and Outrage compared to CC, Leaf Blade, Focus Blast, and Giga Drain. As you can tell, Kingdra wields stronger attacks. Kingdra's stabs are only resisted by Empoleon, and Ferroseed in UU (that I can think of), and viriz's stabs are resisted by Crobat (Quad resist), Roserade, Chandelure, and Victini. Remember, we are only talking about STAB attacks and what resists them both here. I am aware viriz has stone edge to cover these resists and kingdra's sets can be walled by Slowbro/king/Snorlax(resttalk) despite not resisting both stabs, but I was specifically comparing the stabs of the two.

Idk how much virizion was hampered by froslass, many froslass were used as suicide leads so that wouldn‘t affect viriz at all, except for spikes, but spikes was and still is a problem for a lot of pokemon. If they were using bulky lass then yes it could stick around and switch in, but ice beam shouldnt do TOO much (weren't you just praising viriz's good special bulk :P). Using Lass as a viriz switch is risky since edge will probably kill (leaf blade might do a bunch too).



The new spiker suicide lead will probably be custap crustle, it gets SR as well as spikes and in most situations it will get up SR and a layer of spikes.

Phone post so excuse the mistakes, also I usually calc things when talking about 1 mon vs another (like bulky lass vs viriz) but i cant on my phone so if i am wrong my bad haha.

 

[Trainer Au]

I posted twice, my bad, and I am pretty sure I can't delete posts on my phone >.<.

 

[Aecor]

Man, Custap Crustle is just a nuisance to play around. The best way to deal with it is to slap like 48 EV's on a Togekiss and Flinch it lol

 

[Warb]

Imo, Custap Crustle is not that hard to play around.
Both Blastoise and Hitmontop can easily take it on, because there is generally not that much Crustle can do to either of them: Rock Blast's base power is meh, X-scissor is only slightly better but still won't break through common physical walls who can double as spinners. If Crustle carries EQ instead of X-scissor, then even Claydol can handle it easily.
Not only that, but you can always lead of with something that carries Taunt and U-turn (Crobat, Azelf, I guess Xatu counts as well), threatening with the Taunt first turn, then U-turn out into your bulky Water and then OHKO it with a Water STAB.
What made the UU spinners so horrible is the fact that the most common spikers (Roserade and Froslass at that time) had a very easy matchup against said spinners and thus were able to maintain the hazards for a long time. Crustle on the other hand actually loses vs the UU spinners (just as a reminder: Blastoise is still top 5 in usage, which doesn't help Crustle all that much)

 

[Trainer Au]

Imo, Custap Crustle is not that hard to play around.
Both Blastoise and Hitmontop can easily take it on, because there is generally not that much Crustle can do to either of them: Rock Blast's base power is meh, X-scissor is only slightly better but still won't break through common physical walls who can double as spinners. If Crustle carries EQ instead of X-scissor, then even Claydol can handle it easily.
Not only that, but you can always lead of with something that carries Taunt and U-turn (Crobat, Azelf, I guess Xatu counts as well), threatening with the Taunt first turn, then U-turn out into your bulky Water and then OHKO it with a Water STAB.
What made the UU spinners so horrible is the fact that the most common spikers (Roserade and Froslass at that time) had a very easy matchup against said spinners and thus were able to maintain the hazards for a long time. Crustle on the other hand actually loses vs the UU spinners (just as a reminder: Blastoise is still top 5 in usage, which doesn't help Crustle all that much)

The thing that sucks is that the anti-leads for crustle are pretty obvious, since stoise and top easily beat it they are obvious leads for your opponent, same goes with taunters.

I guess you could say that you can anti-lead the crustle user's anti-lead but that doesn't hold much water (don't know if i used that expression right).

 

[Aecor]

Crustle is great if you have two ghosts really. I feel like Custap leads are so bland. A dedicated Suicide Lead is just upsetting morally ;(

 

[Moose V]

Something that isn't on the list that I actually think is very threatening is Linoone

I think that UU in particular is pretty susceptible to Linoone and, with hazards up, it can OHKO pretty much everything in the tier bar a couple relatively uncommon steel types. I'm not gonna go crazy and say it should be A rank or anything, because it needs a pretty good amount of support, but it's definitely worth at least adding to the list. I'd nominate it for either C or D rank.

While I'm here I'd also like to nominate Aggron for C rank. It may not seem like much at first, but I've recently been using banded aggron and holy crap it's way too powerful. Take a look at these calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 243-286 (61.83 - 72.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 168-198 (50.29 - 59.28%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 144-169 (47.36 - 55.59%) -- 17.58% 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Claydol: 171-201 (52.77 - 62.03%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 157-186 (46.44 - 55.02%) -- 70.31% chance to 2HKO after SR
252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 212-250 (62.72 - 73.96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 190-225 (43.87 - 51.96%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 330-388 (83.75 - 98.47%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 198-234 (62.06 - 73.35%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I could list more, but I think you get the point.

Basically, if you aren't a defensive wall that resists head smash, you're getting popped. Aggron can pretty freely spam head smash, but also gets nice coverage moves for the few things that can actually take a head smash or two (EQ/aqua tail for Rhyp, Fire punch for bronzong, heavy slam for hitmontop, etc.) The fact that aggron takes absolutely no recoil damage from a base 150 move is just the icing on the cake. The only thing that holds aggron back is its crappy speed stat. It can get around this, however, as, with its insane defense stat many things give aggron a free siwtch-in: Crobat, Umbreon, non EQ lax, yanmega, and ambipom just to name a few. I think aggron's defnitely worth the C-rank in terms of viabilty, especially if put on a TR team.

EDIT: fun fact, Aggron does at least 62% MIN to everything in the S and A ranks except swampert.

 

[Mazz]

Aggron is a poor man's Rhyperior. Without Sturdy, the number of Fighting- and Water-types in this tier just shit all over it. It's decent on a Trick Room team, but having used it myself before in the past, it's nothing spectacular. D-Rank would suit Aggron perfectly fine.

Linoone needs too much support to really get going I've found, since any priority move dumps all over it once Sitrus Berry is gone. The thought of a +6 Extremespeed is terrifying yes, but there's absolutely nothing in this tier it can reasonably set up on. Bronzong and Registeel actually do well to crush Linoone's hopes and dreams, as they're only 3HKOed once Linoone is set up, and both have status moves and attacks that will cut Linoone's stay extremely short. I wouldn't even bother ranking Linoone, simply because I don't see how it sets up in this tier and that it's still easy enough to deal with once set up.

 

[Moose V]

Aggron is a poor man's Rhyperior. Without Sturdy, the number of Fighting- and Water-types in this tier just shit all over it. It's decent on a Trick Room team, but having used it myself before in the past, it's nothing spectacular. D-Rank would suit Aggron perfectly fine.

Linoone needs too much support to really get going I've found, since any priority move dumps all over it once Sitrus Berry is gone. The thought of a +6 Extremespeed is terrifying yes, but there's absolutely nothing in this tier it can reasonably set up on. Bronzong and Registeel actually do well to crush Linoone's hopes and dreams, as they're only 3HKOed once Linoone is set up, and both have status moves and attacks that will cut Linoone's stay extremely short. I wouldn't even bother ranking Linoone, simply because I don't see how it sets up in this tier and that it's still easy enough to deal with once set up.

I have a few bones to pick with your first point about Aggron.

1) Aggron's role in no way should be compared to Rhyperior's, at least most not those of most Rhyperiors. Ryperior is mainly used defensively to check a few threats in the UU metagame, set up rocks and maybe phaze a little. Most Aggrons are built to hit surprisingly hard and score quick KOs. Banded Aggron is IMO ten times better than Banded Rhyperior as well. Locking oneself in on earthquake, which Banded Rhyperior often is forced to do, is absolutely awful as pretty much every team is guaranteed to have a ground immunity. Head Smash also scores a few crucial 2HKOs on things that Stone Edge only 3HKOs like Suicune or Gligar. In addition, Aggron, unlike Rhyp doesn't really have to predict, it would still perform amazingly if it only carried head smash.

2) Did you look at my calcs? Aggron shits on bulky waters, not the other way around. It can 2HKO every one of them with Head Smash bar Swampert so they can't switch into Aggron while they can with Rhyperior. As for fighting types, yes, they can force Aggron out, but again none of them can safely come in on Aggron.

3) Aggron can do essentially 60% to Gligar with a neutral physical move. The only other 2 pokes in UU who can do this are Banded Victini, which is about to be banned, and banded Darm which is pretty much nonexistent and gets worn down very easily. How is this nothing "spectacular"?

4) On top of this, Aggron can run a sturdy, metal burst custap berry set fairly effectively and isn't all that one-dimensional.

5) Since Rhyperior is the only Rock type in the tier and it rarely goes on offense, most UU teams simply don't prepare for such offensive pressure in the form of a rock-type move. Rock is also one of the best offensive types out there, hitting more types super effectively than hit not very effectively (I believe rock is the only type that does this).

Forgive me if some of these points are a little poorly illustrated right now because I'm pretty tired.

 

[Mazz]

I have a few bones to pick with your first point about Aggron.

1) Aggron's role in no way should be compared to Rhyperior's, at least most not those of most Rhyperiors. Ryperior is mainly used defensively to check a few threats in the UU metagame, set up rocks and maybe phaze a little. Most Aggrons are built to hit surprisingly hard and score quick KOs. Banded Aggron is IMO ten times better than Banded Rhyperior as well. Locking oneself in on earthquake, which Banded Rhyperior often is forced to do, is absolutely awful as pretty much every team is guaranteed to have a ground immunity. Head Smash also scores a few crucial 2HKOs on things that Stone Edge only 3HKOs like Suicune or Gligar. In addition, Aggron, unlike Rhyp doesn't really have to predict, it would still perform amazingly if it only carried head smash.

2) Did you look at my calcs? Aggron shits on bulky waters, not the other way around. It can 2HKO every one of them with Head Smash bar Swampert so they can't switch into Aggron while they can with Rhyperior. As for fighting types, yes, they can force Aggron out, but again none of them can safely come in on Aggron.

3) Aggron can do essentially 60% to Gligar with a neutral physical move. The only other 2 pokes in UU who can do this are Banded Victini, which is about to be banned, and banded Darm which is pretty much nonexistent and gets worn down very easily. How is this nothing "spectacular"?

4) On top of this, Aggron can run a sturdy, metal burst custap berry set fairly effectively and isn't all that one-dimensional.

5) Since Rhyperior is the only Rock type in the tier and it rarely goes on offense, most UU teams simply don't prepare for such offensive pressure in the form of a rock-type move. Rock is also one of the best offensive types out there, hitting more types super effectively than hit not very effectively (I believe rock is the only type that does this).

Forgive me if some of these points are a little poorly illustrated right now because I'm pretty tired.

Alright, I'll bite.

Just because a Pokemon is typically used defensively, doesn't mean that's all it can do. That's where the brilliance behind CB Rhyperior lies. It's epected to be defensive, then shits all over a team. Aggron is nothing but a one-trick pony. Sure, you have a point. Aggron hits hard, but it can only do so with one move. Rhyperior has 30 more base Attack, STAB EdgeQuake, Megahorn, and one of the best defensive abilities in the game, Solid Rock. You thought switching into Aggron was hard? Everything in UU is 2HKOed by CB Rhyperior, with only two Pokemon needing SR for that to happen. Aggron cannot for the life of it touch Swampert nor Bronzong, whereas Rhyperior brings both to their knees. Have you even used an Aggron before? They're horrid. They cannot take a hit from anything with a base Special Attack stat over 60. Wanna see a calculation? Have at this:

0 SpA Blastoise Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Aggron: 228-270 (80.85 - 95.74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 235-277 (64.91 - 76.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not only does this mean that Aggron is both outsped and outfucked by Blastoise, but it can't do shit in return. So yes, Blastoise can fully switch into Aggron and still beat it. Not only that, but the odds of Head Smash actually 2HKOing Blastoise is horrendous, as its accuracy is comparable to that of Stone Edge, and Aggron lacks a secondary STAB attack that equals the damage output of its Rock-type STAB to fall back on. Blastoise isn't even the bulkiest Water-type in this tier either, so this means that Suicune is also capable of accomplishing the same thing. Slowbro cannot switch in due to being slower, but it also packs Regenerator to stall Head Smash out. 2HKOing Gligar with a neutral move is really nothing to be impressed about when that said neutral move is basically the only one in its arsenal. This is one of the reasons why Rhyperior carries Ice Punch. Curious as to what that does?

252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 268-316 (80.23 - 94.61%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Gligar is dropped like a sack of shit from a non-STAB physical attack stat. Not just 2HKOed, but dropped dead thanks to Stealth Rock or any previous damage. Aggron's Aqua Tail can't even sport damage like that.

Sturdy Custap lead hey? Last time I checked, Rhyperior was single-handedly the best Stealth Rock user in UU, and one of the most commonly used defensive Pokemon despite its two 4x weaknesses. Besides, Crustle does the Custap lead set better, as it has access to both Stealth Rock and Spikes, whereas Aggron can only hope to fire off a Heavy Slam over base 120 damage. It'll be hard-pressed to do this however, as opposing Bronzong and Rhyperior make up for many of the leads in UU. Because they both happen to be more than half Aggron's weight, and you cannot run Heavy Metal on this set, it only gets a base damage of 40 on Heavy Slam. And I don't know about you, but I typically have a Steel-type on all my teams, as well as a Flygon or Rhyperior. In fact most decent teams have one or multiple of these options, and don't have to sweat that much about a Head Smash coming from one of the worst Pokemon available to UU.

Regardless of what Aggron is capable of doing, you have to realize that it has to somehow make its way into a match. Aggron cannot for the life of it switch into any of the common attackers in the tier. Its defensive typing is a huge letdown, being 4x weak to the most common type in the tier. Rhyperior at least has Solid Rock and a base 115 HP stat to help cushion the blow. If Aggron finds its way into a match, it now has to worry about being outsped and hoping that its 80 accuracy deathmove doesn't let it down. If Head Smash had better accuracy, I'd support Aggron for C-Rank. Because that's the only element that makes it a real threat. But until the day that either changes, Aggron gets a better move, or UU loses some of its reserve on Fighting-types (which won't be happening), Aggron cannot be seen as a true threat in this metagame. It's too easily beaten by so much. D-Rank to stay.

 

[Warb]

The thing that sucks is that the anti-leads for crustle are pretty obvious, since stoise and top easily beat it they are obvious leads for your opponent, same goes with taunters.

I guess you could say that you can anti-lead the crustle user's anti-lead but that doesn't hold much water (don't know if i used that expression right).

Yes, but if Crustle doesn't lead off, it might not get the chance to get up anything besides maybe rocks. The point I'm trying to make is: Just because Froslass is gone doesn't necessarily mean that Crustle becomes better by default since it is one of those Pokes who actually make the UU spinners quite good in contrast to Froslass or Roserade.

Crustle is great if you have two ghosts really. I feel like Custap leads are so bland. A dedicated Suicide Lead is just upsetting morally ;(

But wouldn't running two ghosts + Crustle make a team tremendously weak to water? Especially to those of the offensive variety (unless you ran Frillish :x)

 

[LightningLuxray]

Hi everyone! I'm quite new to this whole Viability Ranking thing, but I thought it sounded really cool, and would like to give my input. While I may not be the most knowledgeable about the tier, I've been playing it for quite some time, so I am defiantly not inexperienced. Also before I start, I would just like to say thanks to whoever created the "rules" that classify each Pokemon into each rank. It really helped me decide where Pokemon should go, and made me realize this list is almost perfect. However, there is one major thing that has been bothering me. That is Gligar's ranking.

Gligar is by no means a C rank Pokemon. First, lets look at the requirements for B rank. "Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche." True, Gligar can only stop physical threats that don't carry an ice move. However, it's "niche" is walling basically every single physical attackers bar a few banded Pokes or ones with Ice moves. However, after checking through all of UU, the only physical attacker that run an ice coverage moves are Cobalian, Mienshio, Snorlax, Machamp, Rhyperior, Scrafty, and Swampert. While this may seem like a lot, it truly isn't, as most of these Pokemon either aren't seen very often (Machamp/Cobalian), almost never run the ice coverage move (Mienshio, Snorlax, Rhyperior, and Swampert) , rarely run physical sets, or have a combination of the three. This means Gligar can easily wall some top threats, including, but not limited to, Heracross, Flygon, Bisharp, Crobat, Swords Dance Virizion, and basically all the Pokemon who "commonly" run ice coverage moves. Not only that, but when combined with a Pokemon like Umbreon, it creates a near-unstoppable core that can wear down the opponent with proper team support. "Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category." Gligar has a SMALL flaw that keeps him from doing his job, however, as I've proven before, it really isn't as massive as a flaw as people have been making it out to be. Gligar can also be set-up bait, however, a STAB EQ coming from a decent 75 base attack is not bad, meaning a lot of Pokemon actually have trouble setting up on Gligar. Also, if you're argument against Gligar is that he is outclassed, this argument is invalid, as outclassed Pokemon can still be placed in B rank.

Overall, with reliably recovery, Immunity, a small weakness that can be covered with team support, the ability to gain momentum with U-turn, the ability to set up Stealth Rocks, and the ability to Toxic stall all make Gligar a great B rank Pokemon. If you have any arguments against Gligar being B, I would love to hear them, as I am open to discussion. However, I don't really see a reason why he should be C, as his walling capabilities are stellar.

 

[Demoness]

@LightningLuxray

the only physical attacker that run an ice coverage moves are Cobalian, Mienshio, Snorlax, Machamp, Rhyperior, Scrafty, and Swampert.

Uh, you are forgetting Weavile in this list entirely.

While this may seem like a lot, it truly isn't, as most of these Pokemon either aren't seen very often (Machamp/Cobalian), almost never run the ice coverage move (Mienshio, Snorlax, Rhyperior, and Swampert) , rarely run physical sets, or have a combination of the three.

First off, you literally just listed all the Pokemon here as physical attackers, and now you're saying that they rarely run physical sets? Secondley, most Mienshao sets run HP Ice, especially Life Orb, Cobalion commonly runs HP Ice, and is used quite a bit. Defensive Swampert can burn Gligar with Scald, and Choice Band can either Ice Punch Gligar and horribly cripple it, or Waterfall and outdamage the HP gained by Roost.

This means Gligar can easily wall some top threats, including, but not limited to, Heracross, Flygon, Bisharp, Crobat, Swords Dance Virizion, and basically all the Pokemon who "commonly" run ice coverage moves.

Gligar is insane set-up fodder for any SD Hearcross unless it runs Aerial Ace, which leaves Gligar with either no U-turn to help keep momentum, or Toxic to actually do something to flying-types. Also, Gligar does not wall Crobat; Crobat walls Gligar because Gligar cannot use anything that can damage Crobat with any power. The rest I can't argue really, but Choice Band Flygon can 2HKO with Outrage after2 SR switch-ins and like 7% extra damage, which is not hard to achieve.

Gligar can also be set-up bait, however, a STAB EQ coming from a decent 75 base attack is not bad, meaning a lot of Pokemon actually have trouble setting up on Gligar.

uh, Earthquake is actually piss weak, and a large number of Pokemon can take these Earthquakes easily and set-up. Togekiss, Heracross, Kingdra, and Mew are just a few Pokemon that can tank Gligar's EQ and set-up on it with ease.

 

[silenced]

While I have no objections with gligar being low C-rank, and not moving up whatsoever, I've always wondered why in the scenario of SD heracross vs gligar, when the gligar player sees heracross using SD, it does not just simply use U-turn to swap out safely to a pokemon which is faster than heracross and as a result, force out heracross (Since gligar do not run speed investment, and as a result should always move second to get the next switch in without getting hit by heracross).

Unless I've missed something...

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

U-Turn is literally one of the top reasons Gligar is worth using imo...and yeah, if it does carry U-Turn then Sd Hera can be revenged easily....not sure why tf you would Toxic a Heracross but eh. From what I've felt in my time using Gligar, it works best as a pivot for that defensive momentum, sponging most neutral/resisted hits and either setting up, healing, or U-Turning into your own threat. While Gligar's physical Defense is massive, you obviously SHOULDN'T expect it to wall every physical attacker in UU. No wall can pull that off and Gligar's no damn exception. However take advantage of Gligar's base 80-something speed (I'm on my phone, too lazy to check) and utilize it to escape from bulky attackers and walls who usually setup on it or threaten it. Imo this is the best way to use Gligar and though I'll probably be outspoken forever, I still would support it in B-Rank for this

 

[Aecor]

I could see Gligar being C or B ranked...truthfully I don't care enough since Gligar isn't like game breaking. It's not like arguing Mienshao for A or S ranked where it becomes more pressing, so either or is fine.

 

[Iminyourcloset]

So Gligar's on topic right now.
Hm. I've never been too determined on where Gligar should be. I once before argued with some dude about it staying C-Rank, but after bringing one of my older teams back to life, I realize how pretty useful Gligar is. (Sorry dude I argued with some pages ago, please forgive <3)
I think the main thing is how people play with Gligar.
I know, I know, people can say that about any pokemon, but specifically with Gligar, the options you have are the "good" options (like U-turn), and the "nubby" options (like, idk, running Acrobatics or something), with little in between (bar possibly Aerial Ace cuz fuck Hera).

Gligar does either really well or really badly in a team. Keep in mind, it's a great physical wall, with a good typing/ability/moves/stats, but what I think happens is that people don't support it enough (as in teambuilding, not like supporting it for w/e rank) and expect it to just take every hit known to man.

This is relatable to how I used to feel about Slowbro:
"good, but it just doesn't work for me." the main problem was, I was expecting Slowbro to tank Heracross Megahorns and Mienshao U-turns, plus stray Thunderbolts, kind of like how newer Gligar users expect it to take Waterfalls and Ice Punches, as well has Chandelure Fire Blasts left and right, which it simply can't. It's meant to wall significant portions of the metagame, (which it does,) as well as set SR, then wall some more, then Roost, possibly U-turning out to gain some momentum.

Gligar isn't that amazing in the sense that it can't just stall out entire teams like some A- or S-Rank 'mons can claim to. However, we're not talking about A-Rank or S-rank. B-rank is for those underneath those two, pokemon who can do only do so much, but what they do is enough. This is really the perfect place for Gligar now that I'm more aware of its capabilities.

However, I will admit there is a reason for Gligar-haters:
Gligar will never be able to take a special attack unless it's Ground- or Electric-type.
Even with U-turn, it can easily become set-up fodder and give your opponent momentum.
It has little viable in versatility (Although IMO that doesn't matter- See Umbreon)
typical BlablablaGligarsuckshere'swhyblablabla stuff that you can find yourself.

Yet, in the end, I think Gligar would be good for a promotion to B-rank. If everyone else seems to disagree, oh well; Discuss and see if my mind changes.
So um, I think that's it. pretty much reiterating some points above me + putting in some of my opinion.

 

[psVoltage]

Idk were to stand on the Gligar thing but i recently found a Volt switch/ Uturn defensive core of Gligar and Lanturn. I really have to say Gligar is far from useless, Its job is to tank physical hits bar SE ones and taunt, uturn, toxic or whatever you use. Imo its not a terrible pokemon tho, has always done what i needed it to do.

 

[Psychotic]

Xatu from C rank ==> B rank. With Froslass gone this thing now shuts down pretty much every spiker bar Crustle, who is not very common and somewhat easy to deal with. This thing is now an excellent choice for a team that can't afford to run a spinner but needs hazards off the field.

Aggron will be put into D rank. It can be good with a lot of team support, and it sometimes wrecks teams, but it also gets wrecked by a ton of stuff because of its typing. It has a decent enough niche to get mentioned on this list though.

Gligar's weakness is that everything in the tier sets up on it, even stuff that it is supposed to wall. SD Cobalion, Banded Flygon, LO Honchkrow, Darmanitan, etc. all break through it with a bit of prior damage, and without Leftovers recovery, most of the time it is weakened a bit. Scarf Fighting types and Scarfgon are pretty much the only things I have seen it consistently wall. It's main niche is as a bulky pivot for Volt-Turn teams that sets up SR and takes a few hits, and outside of that it is kinda mediocre. Again, I'll talk a few other people about this and get their opinions, but for now it is C-rank material imo.

Also stop comparing things like SD Heracross to SD Virizion. They fill different roles, and they are both utterly different pokemon. Don't try to compare how one poke fills a role better than another, unless they share the same role.