Gen 5 The UU Viability Ranking Thread

Kabutops is easily one of the best rain sweepers in the tier, +2 stone edge with life orb is capable of OHKOing quite a few bulky water resists, though a number only after stealth rocks, including but not limited to shaymin, kingdra, blastoise, and qwilfish after intimidate. Suicune, and slowbro remain narrow 2HKOs, virizion and empoleon are both OHKO'd or a narrow miss of an OHKO by waterfall in the rain, depending on the spread. Aqua jet KOs 252/120 sableye to avoid priority WoW.

Other than that it OHKOs and outspeeds the entire tier as jolly, and up to base 105 + nature choice scarf users as adamant, without issue using waterfall, and has the defenses to stand up to most priority. Because it has the capacity to sweep the entire tier without ludicrous set up, perhaps it is worthy of A even. It does at least 80% to the best defensive water resists in the tier, that's really not asking for all that much in the way of wearing down if you ask me.

Rocks, rain, and a swords dance can clean sweep a lot of teams, lackcing rocks with a bit of wear on key counters a sweep is also very feasible. Failing that, just in the rain offensive presence is not lacking without a boost, and even out of the rain the strength of aqua jet is real.
Though Kabutops is insanely powerful and way too fast with an SD and rain up (down?), I think that needing these two things, which requires two turns of set-up and a safe switch in between, don't allow it into A-rank. It's not really that bulky and its typing lets it down more than it helps it, and its only real place is on a dedicated rain team. It really doesn't have the move slot to use Rain Dance because it really needs SD, its two STABs, and Aqua Jet.

Outside of this, it can serve as an spinner and a Stealth Rock setter, but lack of recovery (just like every spinner in UU) and inferior defenses to most other spinners or Stealth Rock users hurts it a lot. It has a niche, yes, but A is too high.
 
Remove Electivire from the list. It lacks significant power despite its wide coverage, not being able to OHKO much threats, and it is very frail, making it easy to revenge kill.

Ditto for Kokoloko. Everyone should plan ahead when seeing Ditto in Team Preview and hold on to their boosting sweepers until Ditto is removed. Substitute users also mess it up, and it is worn down by hazards throughout the match. Ditto can, however, revenge kill certain threats including boosting sweepers, and can sweep once it grabs boosts.

Cryogonal should be no higher than C for all the reasons Serene stated.
 

ScraftyIsTheBest

Get ready for the new me!
is a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I agree with adding Ditto to Kokoloko rank, as it's a very situational Pokemon, only being able to work against a couple of teams; it is very much a something or nothing Pokemon. It cannot revenge kill other Scarfed Pokemon, is as a revenge killer is usually outclassed by something more consistent such as Krookodile or Mienshao. With the Scarf set as MQJinx said, however, it does have a decent enough of a niche to warrant mentioning it here.

I also agree with Cryogonal being C-Rank, but definitely not higher. I've used it on my hail team, and it definitely has potential; it, along with Kabutops, is one of the two spinners capable of going offensive, so it doesn't kill that much momentum and can actually hurt things while spinning; it also beats Cofagrigus and Mismagius. Cryogonal also has nice special bulk and Recover, so it's pretty capable. What's bad about it though is that it has really bad physical bulk; it basically folds to any physical attacker because of this, and it has no useful resistances either. I do think it has potential though, so I think it's C-Rank material.

I think Kabutops should also be added here, somewhere in like at least C is fine, it's been explained before.

I might come back with a nom later, I'll have to think about it though.
 
Changing the subject a tad, has anyone here tried Braviary, perchance? It's got a UU analysis, but I can't seem to find it on the list. I would think that if something has a UU analysis, it probably at least deserves a look, no?
 

Psychotic

Banned deucer.
Me and RT. discussed all potential changes and decided on this:
Kabutops will be put into C Rank
In the words of RT: "Should be C, needs rain support, standalone spinner sucks, gets wrecked by electrics, fires, fighters, waters."

Cryogonal will be put into C Rank
Everyone seems to want this C rank, though neither of us necessarily agree, no one has argued anything but C so it will go there for now.

Hitmonlee will be put into kokoloko Rank
This thing needs way too much support, the only usable set is the Endure+Liechi Berry one, which is countered and set up on by a TON of stuff in the tier. It simply isn't effective in this metagame, it can't do shit until it is at 1 HP, and any opponent that knows about this set can easily shut it down.

Ditto will be put into kokoloko Rank
Ditto is the best pokemon to revenge kill speed-boosting setup sweepers in the game, but other than that it really doesn't do anything. Deserves kokoloko ranking.

Electivire and Eelektross will be removed from the rankings. These pokemon are not relevant at all, and using a different electric check is better in every situation.
 

Kingler12345

levi when we win ekans
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Nominating Cryogonal for B-rank.
It just hits really hard for a spinner, a lot better than the common UU standards( even CoolStoryBrobat 's specstoise) for spinners, beats cofag, beats golurk, OHKOes spdef zapdos and spdef roserade, and has good two move coverage, along with awesome special bulk, speed and reliable reccovery.
 
I think what's so good about Cryogonal is that it's the only spinner in the tier to beat Roserade one on one. Blastoise is forced out, Claydol is forced out, and Hitmontop loses one on one. I for one think this is a solid niche for a spinner to fill, as Roserade is one of the most popular Spike setters (if not the most popular). B-rank sounds pretty reasonable.
 

Psychotic

Banned deucer.
Cryogonal has WAY too many downsides to go to B. I have been testing it, and it has a ton of problems. Any physical attack, no matter how weak, wrecks it. It has to choose between running Speed, Special Attack and HP Ev's. If you run max Speed and Max Special Attack, you can't really switch in on any special attackers that you should be able to switch into, and you lose life really fast between being weak to Stealth Rock and Life Orb recoil. If you run max HP and Max Speed, ghost types can come in and stop you from spinning, since you aren't doing that much damage to anything. If you run Max HP and Max SpD, a lot of things that shouldn't outspeed you do, like Shaymin, Chandelure, Roserade, Zapdos and Flygon and again, it can't do much to anything. Each set has so many downsides that it isn't going higher than C, and personally I think it should be in Kokoloko. RT agrees with me on this.
 
Ambipom down a rank?

Besides the fact that it generally can't do anything to steels, ghosts or rocks, it has a measly attack, awful defenses and a pretty bad case of 4MSS. I'm not sure how it got moved up 2 ranks from koko rank but it really should only be in C or below. The fact that it really can't do anything useful other than spam fake out because of its shit attack, meh movepool and ability that only helps with fake out/low kick means that its also insanely predictable. It can't do much to UU's bulky metagame (even some special walls wall it pretty hard) and thus it's only really useful on hyper offense teams but is still beaten by sharpedo, yanmega, crobat, cobalion, OTR cofag, etc. You could run a banded set but locking yourself into return means something gets a free switch in. Now that Lass is gone it even loses his nice little beat up niche. TBH the last time I remember Ambipom killing something on my team was back in June when it finished off my weakened qwilfish with a return.

Icecream has my back on this
 
Last edited:

CoolStoryBrobat

The hero Smogon needs, but not the one it deserves
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Ambipom down a rank?

Besides the fact that it generally can't do anything to steels, ghosts or rocks, it has a measly attack, awful defenses and a pretty bad case of 4MSS. I'm not sure how it got moved up 2 ranks from koko rank but it really should only be in C or below. The fact that it really can't do anything useful other than spam fake out because of its shit attack, meh movepool and ability that only helps with fake out/low kick means that its also insanely predictable. It can't do much to UU's bulky metagame (even some special walls wall it pretty hard) and thus it's only really useful on hyper offense teams but is still beaten by sharpedo, yanmega, crobat, cobalion, OTR cofag, etc. You could run a banded set but locking yourself into return means something gets a free switch in. Now that Lass is gone it even loses his nice little beat up nice. TBH the last time I remember Ambipom killing something on my team was back in June when it finished off my weakened qwilfish with a return.

Icecream has my back on this
You just haven't been rocked by the mighty Seed Bomb Ambipom yet tho. Like I have

RIP Swampert :[

Nah but Ambi is pretty bad in general. I would make a more fruitful post if I weren't on my phone...usually you can get so much more for the price of what Ambi offers by using somethin else
 

Nas

Banned deucer.
Ambipom down a rank?

Besides the fact that it generally can't do anything to steels, ghosts or rocks, it has a measly attack, awful defenses and a pretty bad case of 4MSS. I'm not sure how it got moved up 2 ranks from koko rank but it really should only be in C or below. The fact that it really can't do anything useful other than spam fake out because of its shit attack, meh movepool and ability that only helps with fake out/low kick means that its also insanely predictable. It can't do much to UU's bulky metagame (even some special walls wall it pretty hard) and thus it's only really useful on hyper offense teams but is still beaten by sharpedo, yanmega, crobat, cobalion, OTR cofag, etc. You could run a banded set but locking yourself into return means something gets a free switch in. Now that Lass is gone it even loses his nice little beat up niche. TBH the last time I remember Ambipom killing something on my team was back in June when it finished off my weakened qwilfish with a return.

Icecream has my back on this
It would be nice if you were less vague and actually showed support for the claims you're making.

First of all, how does Ambipom have a bad case of 4MSS? Fake Out / Return / Low Kick / Beat Up has great coverage, and there's really nothing else in Ambipom's movepool that would be beneficial over any of those moves. Again, I don't know where you got the idea that it can't do anything to Steel-, Ghost-, and Rock-types. Chandelure is OHKOed by Beat Up and Cofagrigus takes upwards of 70+, meaning you actually beat it one on one. (not that you should have to, since the switch is generally fairly obvious) As far as Steels go, all of the Steel-types in the tier bar Bronzong are 2HKOed by Low Kick, and Ambi outspeeds all of them. And yeah, there's only one Rock-type in UU lol.

I'm not going to reply to the rest of your post because it demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge about the meta and how to play Ambipom. But for the record, the only pokemon that completely wall Ambipom are Gligar, Sableye, Bronzong, and Hitmontop. That's hardly the entirety of "UU's bulky metagame."
 
It would be nice if you were less vague and actually showed support for the claims you're making.

First of all, how does Ambipom have a bad case of 4MSS? Fake Out / Return / Low Kick / Beat Up has great coverage, and there's really nothing else in Ambipom's movepool that would be beneficial over any of those moves. Again, I don't know where you got the idea that it can't do anything to Steel-, Ghost-, and Rock-types. Chandelure is OHKOed by Beat Up and Cofagrigus takes upwards of 70+, meaning you actually beat it one on one. (not that you should have to, since the switch is generally fairly obvious) As far as Steels go, all of the Steel-types in the tier bar Bronzong are 2HKOed by Low Kick, and Ambi outspeeds all of them. And yeah, there's only one Rock-type in UU lol.

I'm not going to reply to the rest of your post because it demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge about the meta and how to play Ambipom. But for the record, the only pokemon that completely wall Ambipom are Gligar, Sableye, Bronzong, and Hitmontop. That's hardly the entirety of "UU's bulky metagame."
C'mon RT. don't be rude, you're better than that

for the 4MSS thing, it also likes to run u-turn for momentum, taunt to stop rocks and seed bomb for Rhyperior. It also likes to run shadow claw since beat up's power is significantly dampened when Amb's teammates die and is therefore only reliable early on in the game. The reason I was perhaps overly "vague" is that I'd rather not spend a lot of time throwing in calcs and comparing Ambipom's matchups against various UU pokes etc.

As for things that wall it, umbreon, suicune, rhyperior, slowbro, qwilfish, arcanine, dusclops, milotic, swampert and even blastoise could be added to the list. I think that's fairly significant when you consider how so few things wall something like Virizion, another fast offensive B-ranked poke.

also, one more thing I wanna point out:
I can't properly damage calc beat up but,
252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Cofagrigus: 112-133 (35.1 - 41.69%)
Thus even if ambipom has teammates all with base 120 attack and they are all still alive, beat up's base power will only be 108 rounding up so it will do maximum 41.69 x 108/70 = 64% to a Cofag with no defense investment. Therefore there is absolutely no way Ambipom's doing 70%+ to cofag. Feel free to ask me about my logic behind these calcs.
 

Nas

Banned deucer.
Assuming the average base Atk of your team is 100:

(100/10 +5)(1.5)(6) = 135 base power
a b c

a is the calc for the base power of each beat up hit, b is factoring in technician, and c is the total number of hits. So with that, you 2HKO Slowbro, Cofagrigus, and even Cresselia.

You can't compare Virizion and Ambipom, the former doesn't have the ability to completely smash offense like Ambipom can. There are very few matchups where Ambipom is going to be useless, it excels against the dominating playstyle in UU and does well against Balance as well. It's capabilities are a perfect fit for B rank.
 
Assuming the average base Atk of your team is 100:

(100/10 +5)(1.5)(6) = 135 base power
a b c

a is the calc for the base power of each beat up hit, b is factoring in technician, and c is the total number of hits. So with that, you 2HKO Slowbro, Cofagrigus, and even Cresselia.

You can't compare Virizion and Ambipom, the former doesn't have the ability to completely smash offense like Ambipom can. There are very few matchups where Ambipom is going to be useless, it excels against the dominating playstyle in UU and does well against Balance as well. It's capabilities are a perfect fit for B rank.
Ambipom loses technician on the first hit (mummy). Thus, (15 x 1.5) + 17 x 5 = 108 rounding up

Also going off of shadow claw's damage output again, which is 24-28% on Cresselia, even a base 135 super effective move has like a >10% chance to 2HKO.


The primary reason I think that Ambipom should stay out of B is that with no shortage of counters, there's a very high chance that on every team you face your opponent is going to have something that can come in on Ambipom and force it out again and again
 
Last edited:

alexwolf

lurks in the shadows
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Beat Up is based solely on the user's Base Attack in 5th gen, unlike 4th gen where it depended on all the non statused or fainted Pokemon.

Moose V said:
As for things that wall it, umbreon, suicune, rhyperior, slowbro, qwilfish, arcanine, dusclops, milotic, swampert and even blastoise could be added to the list.
Umbreon is always 2HKOed by Low Kick with SR up, Slowbro is 2HKOed by Beat Up with SR up as long as you have 4 or more alive and non statused Pokemon, Dusclops is 2HKOed by Beat Up after SR with 5 or more alive and non statused Pokemon, Swampert, Blastoise, and Rhyperior are 3HKOed and have no recovery so they do not wall they just check it, leaving Qwilifish, defensive Arcanine, RestTalk Suicune, and physically defensive Milotic as the Pokemon that do indeed wall Ambipom from those your list.
 

CoolStoryBrobat

The hero Smogon needs, but not the one it deserves
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Let's also not forget Ambipom learns Ice Punch. Because screw you Gligar.

Nah but I kinda don't see it constantly wrecking against Offensive teams. The big deal with Ambipom is that if it fails to KO a bulky Pokemon, or even a sweeper, most likely your Ambipom will be crippled, statused, or at least in KO range for a scarfer to come in and do what it needs to ensure Ambipom's off the field. And let's not even begin to touch base on Life Orb recoil, which is the preferred item most of the time. I think I've had one battle ever where Ambipom actually lasted somewhere near the endgame, and that was probably the most potent scenario I can give to its longevity.

Eh, maybe the people I faced sucked at using Ambipom? Maybe they shouldn't be using Fake Out on my Crobat? Maybe they don't realize that I usually see the Fake Out coming a mile away and capitalize on it...

Some Ambipom sets have caught me off-guard, and a Choice Band one that didn't run Fake Out actually threw me for a loop. But I feel like Ambipom's just held back by its frailty, the support it needs to net key KOs, especially in the early game (Which is when a lot of people often send Ambipom in), and no defensive synergy at all whatsoever aside from making a choiced Chandelure think twice about going for Shadow Ball. Most of the time you gotta either sack something to bring in Ambipom, bring it in on a setup move that doesn't involve boosting Speed for a healthy sweeper, or use slow U-Turn/Volt Switch support every time. And then once again in the case of the latter, Life Orb recoil + possible hazards just make this guy suffer even more. Frail Pokes like Weavile and Mienshao are also known for being big threats to offensive teams, especially Weavile, ESPECIALLY if it gets a Swords Dance in. But eh, that's my full 2 cents on Ambipom. Regardless of whether RT. feels this thing is a beast (Maybe he's the only person who uses it effectively? Maybe there's "Levels" to using Ambipom that a ton of players have not yet grasped?), I can't really say the community is benefiting much from thinking it's a solid B-Rank Pokemon...
 

Ace Emerald

Minimal effort with maximum profit
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Top Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Also doesn't Weavile completely outclass Ambipom if you wanna rely on beat up?
Just because they sometimes use the same move doesn't mean they play similarly. A Weavile Beat Up set would attempt to sweep using it, either by flinch hax or because with a full party its the strongest physical dark move we have. Ambipom uses it to bypass certain checks/counters. Not remotely the same purpose.
 

Psychotic

Banned deucer.
The main reason Ambipom outclasses Weavile as a Beat Up user is that it actually lures in the mons(ghosts) that Beat Up hits, whereas no ghost is going to ever switch directly into a Weavile. This is what makes Ambipom so effective: It lures in most things that most people assume wall it, like Cofagrigus and Rhyperior, and wrecks them with its amazing coverage.
 
Just because they sometimes use the same move doesn't mean they play similarly. A Weavile Beat Up set would attempt to sweep using it, either by flinch hax or because with a full party its the strongest physical dark move we have. Ambipom uses it to bypass certain checks/counters. Not remotely the same purpose.
If one poke can sweep with a move while another uses it to hurt some counters, doesn't that make the second poke an overall inferior user of said move?

Back to the main point of Ambipom's usability in general,

I think we can agree that generally Beat up is fairly unreliable unless it's very early game, no? Also if Ambipom has coverage for Rhyperior, then it misses the ability to taunt or gain momentum and lacks coverage for something else and the same can be said against many different potential counters. The fact that most times it enevitably won't be able to touch something on the other team and just continually be forced out is a huge hindrance to it.
 
Last edited:

Ace Emerald

Minimal effort with maximum profit
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Top Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
If one poke can sweep with a move while another uses it to hurt some counters, doesn't that make the second poke an overall inferior user of said move?
Uh no. Just different users. I don't think anyone would say Victini is a bad user of Grass Knot just because it uses it to get by checks and counters and not sweep with it. Weavile and Ambipom use Beat Up for completely different purposes, you can compare the effectiveness of the sets as a whole but you can't say Weavile is "a better user of Beat Up" because it uses it so differently.
 
Uh no. Just different users. I don't think anyone would say Victini is a bad user of Grass Knot just because it uses it to get by checks and counters and not sweep with it. Weavile and Ambipom use Beat Up for completely different purposes, you can compare the effectiveness of the sets as a whole but you can't say Weavile is "a better user of Beat Up" because it uses it so differently.
Everything that's a Weavile counter is an Ambipom counter (and a better ambipom counter) with the exception of Swampert if and only if Ambipom's running seed bomb. Ambipom has so many more counters than Weavile, inferior speed, inferior attack and inferior STAB. Even though Ambipom might hit one of its potential counters hard, that same thing was never even considered a counter from Weavile's point of view


Also the only other physical threats that get away with such a low base attack are set up pokes and Victini and Victini has a base 180 stab attack to make up for it



BTW I'm not a fan of comparing these 2 since weavile and Ambipom are certainly different in many aspects cuz fake out, swords dance, ice shard etc. but I feel this comparison necessary to get my previous point across
 
Last edited:

Ace Emerald

Minimal effort with maximum profit
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Top Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Everything that's a Weavile counter is an Ambipom counter with the exception of Swampert if and only if Ambipom's running seed bomb. Ambipom has so many more counters than Weavile, inferior speed, inferior attack and inferior STAB. Even though Ambipom might hit one of its potential counters hard, that same thing was never even considered a counter from Weavile's point of view
Not even commenting on the validity of your argument, all this does is prove my point. You compared the sets, not the uses of Beat Up which you really can't compare because they serve different functions. Weavile might be a better Pokemon than Ambipom but you can't say it's a better user of Beat Up because Weavile would spam it, Ambipom uses it selectively to bypass counters. I mean I honestly don't understand how proving Weavile is a better Pokemon proves anything regarding its usage of a coverage move.

But I have several bones to pick with the content of your argument anyways. Like how they use Beat Up differently, the two Pokemon play differently. First off, Weavile might have higher Attack, but Ambipom actually hits harder because it has access to Return which is significantly stronger than Weavile's STABs. Second, Normal isn't a terrible STAB in UU when you have high powered Dark and Fighting moves for coverage. Finally, the two Pokemon occupy similar but different team niches. They're both fast and frail attackers, but Weavile's best set is a late game cleaner that plows through weakened teams, Ambipom focuses on screwing up offense with Fake Out (much stronger than Ice Shard, and with flinch it plays differently) early and mid game. Objectively Weavile might be a better Pokemon, I haven't used either enough to pass judgement on that. But its silly to say that Ambipom sucks because Weavile is good, and its sillier to say Ambipom sucks because Weavile can use its coverage move as a gimmick STAB.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 2)

Top