Gen 5 The UU Viability Ranking Thread

Not even commenting on the validity of your argument, all this does is prove my point. You compared the sets, not the uses of Beat Up which you really can't compare because they serve different functions. Weavile might be a better Pokemon than Ambipom but you can't say it's a better user of Beat Up because Weavile would spam it, Ambipom uses it selectively to bypass counters. I mean I honestly don't understand how proving Weavile is a better Pokemon proves anything regarding its usage of a coverage move.

But I have several bones to pick with the content of your argument anyways. Like how they use Beat Up differently, the two Pokemon play differently. First off, Weavile might have higher Attack, but Ambipom actually hits harder because it has access to Return which is significantly stronger than Weavile's STABs. Second, Normal isn't a terrible STAB in UU when you have high powered Dark and Fighting moves for coverage. Finally, the two Pokemon occupy similar but different team niches. They're both fast and frail attackers, but Weavile's best set is a late game cleaner that plows through weakened teams, Ambipom focuses on screwing up offense with Fake Out (much stronger than Ice Shard, and with flinch it plays differently) early and mid game. Objectively Weavile might be a better Pokemon, I haven't used either enough to pass judgement on that. But its silly to say that Ambipom sucks because Weavile is good, and its sillier to say Ambipom sucks because Weavile can use its coverage move as a gimmick STAB.
1st:
BTW I'm not a fan of comparing these 2 since weavile and Ambipom are certainly different in many aspects cuz fake out, swords dance, ice shard etc. but I feel this comparison necessary to get my previous point across
How can you argue Ambipom's case if you haven't really used it? In my experience w/ using Ambipom, it gives too many things excuses to come in, is forced out ridiculously easily and forces the user to make a prediction all too often to be truly good in its own right. It also, unlike other pokes has to run life orb to be any use at all, meaning it always hurts itself to attack. Banded could slightly help with a surprise factor but that' about it and silk scarf last resort, well... let's just say that using that set is about as close as you can get to shooting yourself in the foot in the uu metagme.
 
I personally think new should be moved up to s rank as it is the most versatile poke in you besides smeargle (who nobody really uses anyway) and has almost an infinite amount of sets that it can viably use. Yes it is a mono psychic and yes it's pursuit weak but it can mitagate those flaws with its perfect move pool and good stats along with many mind games such as is it bulky or is it baton pass is it a sweeper or a choice set you never know till it's on the field and all that is what I think makes mew s rank level
 
I personally think new should be moved up to s rank as it is the most versatile poke in you besides smeargle (who nobody really uses anyway) and has almost an infinite amount of sets that it can viably use. Yes it is a mono psychic and yes it's pursuit weak but it can mitagate those flaws with its perfect move pool and good stats along with many mind games such as is it bulky or is it baton pass is it a sweeper or a choice set you never know till it's on the field and all that is what I think makes mew s rank level
Yes mew has a large movepool but where's spore, where's quiver dance, where's spikes, psycho boost, dragon dance, etc? Its movepool somewhat forces it into the role of Jack of All Trades, Master of none. I tried to push mew for S once two but it faces too much competition in every viable role it has.
 
Though I think the discussion about Ambipom is simply a waste of time, I can definitely see both sides of the argument. However, ultimately (what, two intro words) I will probably not give two craps where Ambipom goes. Ambipom does act as an effective lure. For example, if it opts to run Seed bomb and Beat Up, it can severely hurt many potential counters. Yes, it relies on prediction, but often times that is the whole point of having an expansive move pool. For example, Victini having Grass Knot is great; however, it still relies on prediction. Because of this, I do feel as if Ambipom is extremely good against faster-frailer teams simply due to the power of technician-boosted, LO STAB Fake Out.

Am I the only one who thinks Roserade has the potential to be S?
 
Yes mew has a large movepool but where's spore, where's quiver dance, where's spikes, psycho boost, dragon dance, etc? Its movepool somewhat forces it into the role of Jack of All Trades, Master of none. I tried to push mew for S once two but it faces too much competition in every viable role it has.
Also yes it has flaws but do does every poke in s tier not only that as with its move pool it's doesn't need all those moves with 3 viable boosting baton pass and a lot of great sweeping moves aka every ten and move tutor in the game along with good stats and you never know what set it is until
 

Ace Emerald

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How can you argue Ambipom's case if you haven't really used it? In my experience w/ using Ambipom, it gives too many things excuses to come in, is forced out ridiculously easily and forces the user to make a prediction all too often to be truly good in its own right. It also, unlike other pokes has to run life orb to be any use at all, meaning it always hurts itself to attack. Banded could slightly help with a surprise factor but that' about it and silk scarf last resort, well... let's just say that using that set is about as close as you can get to shooting yourself in the foot in the uu metagme.
Sorry but you edited that in while I was typing lol, can't see everything. I'm not hardcore arguing its case, I'm pointing out basic differences that can be found with a damage calculator, knowledge of the meta, and by reading the posts of those who do use it a lot. The statement "I haven't used it extensively" is just a disclaimer, acknowledging if someone like RT. disagreed I'd defer to him because he has extensive Ambipom experience. Nothing I stated needed extensive usage to be logically sound. The argument about coverage moves is just an argument about general Pokemon playing, the Attack difference can be seen clearly with a damage calculator, the STAB comment can be experienced through using any Normal STAB (Snorlax), and the last can be seen by playing against the two or just reading analyses.
 

ScraftyIsTheBest

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Ambipom honestly isn't as awful as the hatewagons say it is; I think the hate directed towards Ambipom comes from ladder scrubs who recklessly use Fake Out thinking it's "FREE DAMAGE WOOHOO!", when in all honesty it's not really a free damage route, and is actually a decent move against offense. Ambipom really just needs to run Fake Out/Return/Low Kick/Beat Up and it's all fine; you don't need to run U-turn in this meta, because with Team preview around, you're scouting nothing, mostly because you already know what your opponent has for Ambipom. Fake Out is a decent insurance against Scarf Pokemon and can stop that Scarfer from sweeping your team clean, or anything like that. Looking to the B-Rank definition, Ambipom does fit that kind of well:

ranks said:
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
Ambipom can't sweep teams very well; that's not its job, but it does fulfill it's own offensive niche in disrupting offense and having a legit shot against its own counters (bar Bronzong ofc). It's frail and provides no defensive synergy, but that hasn't stopped Weavile or Mienshao from having success in UU, eh?

As for Mew, I think it's fine where it's at in A. It does fill numerous roles, but it's got some exploitable weaknesses and although it's good at what it does, I find it surprisingly hard to fit Mew onto a team effectively. Fits well into A-Rank.

Also, I think Machamp should probably be C-Rank, because imo it doesn't have much going for it in UU atm. It's pretty outclassed by other, more rewarding Fighting-types as Machamp has to rely on a weaker STAB move than other Fighting-types and it suffers from a meta filled with Fighting-type counters to handle Hera/Shao, and in general it doesn't offer much over other Fighting-types other than No Guard DynamicPunch, which isn't that great. Idk, I haven't seen Machamp used too effectively as of late and I think it should drop, though that may be just me.
 
As I primarily run offensive teams without steel/rock/ghost pokemon, I can attest that ambipom is a major threat. Never thought I'd fear that monkey so much... I went so far as to test regenerator scarfed mienshao (over reckless) just to take fake outs and threaten back with HJK/uturn.

I agree that ambipom fits the B-rank, due to his advantages against offensive teams
 
Alright returning Ambipom's viability, I'm going to list a few inarguable facts about its performance in UU:

1st, even if you assume it will almost always have a max power beat up, Ambipom has a relatively large pool of counters in the UU tier compared with other physical threats. It also can't generate momentum without allowing that pool of counters to grow.

2nd, about half (probably more) of the pokes on any given team can act as an Ambipom checks since its low overall attack stat and pitiful defenses means it loses to a massive amount of the tier in a 1 v 1 situation.

3rd, also because of those pitiful defenses, Ambipom has an incredibly difficult time coming in unless after a teammate has died.

4th, mono-Normal is, overall, generally not helpful to team synergy due to its lack of resists. It means that having Ambipom on a team somewhat prevents you from using other normal types that have much better viability like Lax and Togekiss without compromising the synergy of that team.

5th, it gives a great many of pokes a free chance to switch in on the fake out, most noticeably Bronzong and Rhyperior, which then get up rocks for free.

It's very hard for Ambipom to do its job in this meta and against the 50% of teams that are more defense-based, it's essentially dead weight.
 
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TPO3

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Alright returning Ambipom's viability, I'm going to list a few inarguable facts about its performance in UU:
It's very hard for Ambipom to do its job in this meta and against the 50% of teams that are more defense-based, it's essentially dead weight.
I agree with most of what you're saying here Moose, and I also agree that Ambipom should be C-rank. However, I do want to address the statement I quoted above. In UU, Offense and Defense are not split 50-50. I think it's a pretty well known fact that offense is the dominating playstyle of UU atm which is why this is such an interesting case. If you look at the mons in B-rank, there is more than one or two pokemon in there that have better matchups against Bulky and Standard Offense but do poorly against more Defensively-based teams. (Cinccino and Rotom-H for example.) In this aspect alone, Ambipom is no different. It doesn't have the greatest matchup against Stall (even though with the right moves you could technically change that), but it does great against offense teams with its high speec, STAB Technician Fake Out and STAB Return. Even off of base 100 Attack, STAB Return is going to hurt a lot of frail offensive pokemon. Just wanted to address that. Overall I do think Ambipom does not have enough defenses, does kind of have 4MSS, and doesn't have enough raw power or versatility like some of the other B-rank pokemon do (ie: Suicune, Meloetta, Honchkrow), but I don't want Ambipom to get moved down because it loses to the 50% of teams that are defensively-based when in reality, Offense is the clearly more popular playstyle. (not better, just more popular.)
 
I agree with most of what you're saying here Moose, and I also agree that Ambipom should be C-rank. However, I do want to address the statement I quoted above. In UU, Offense and Defense are not split 50-50. I think it's a pretty well known fact that offense is the dominating playstyle of UU atm which is why this is such an interesting case. If you look at the mons in B-rank, there is more than one or two pokemon in there that have better matchups against Bulky and Standard Offense but do poorly against more Defensively-based teams. (Cinccino and Rotom-H for example.) In this aspect alone, Ambipom is no different. It doesn't have the greatest matchup against Stall (even though with the right moves you could technically change that), but it does great against offense teams with its high speec, STAB Technician Fake Out and STAB Return. Even off of base 100 Attack, STAB Return is going to hurt a lot of frail offensive pokemon. Just wanted to address that. Overall I do think Ambipom does not have enough defenses, does kind of have 4MSS, and doesn't have enough raw power or versatility like some of the other B-rank pokemon do (ie: Suicune, Meloetta, Honchkrow), but I don't want Ambipom to get moved down because it loses to the 50% of teams that are defensively-based when in reality, Offense is the clearly more popular playstyle. (not better, just more popular.)
I obviously say that in incredibly generalized terms and I'm glad you caught that. For Ambipom's purposes, I consider balanced teams part of defensive teams since even most balanced teams will shrug off Ambipom with little problem. Only 44% of UU teams are thus truly offensive so I think my ratio is still justified.
 
Could I take an opportunity to big-up Magneton please? This monster is technically the strongest special attacker in the tier if one takes Analytic into account, and although his meh speed and weaknesses to common fighting-, fire-, and ground-type attacks prevent from fulfilling the role of a special sweeper in the same way that raikou, roserade and co. can, his whopping twelve resistances and one immunity grant him plenty of opportunity to switch in on choice-locked attackers and then annihilate opposing pokes as they switch in with his powerful STAB volt-switch. Provided he is used sensibly, he can be extremely dangerous, as even Umbreon and Snorlax take around 35-40% damage from switching into a Specs'd volt-switch, let alone a thunderbolt (FUN FACT: both Umbreon and Snorlax are 2HKO'd by Thunder, a testimony to how incredibly powerful Specs Magneton is). Imo, he is one of the best offensive pivots in the UU metagame, as anything that attempts to switch in WILL die.

TL;DR
Not a special attacker: too easy to revenge kill.
Awesome pivot: volt-switch kills shit.
Should be B-Rank

Here's a video of him in action (apologies for any horrendous misplays on my part, of which there were many): http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uucurrent-55806456
 
B rank is too high for Magneton. Yeah it has 12 resistances and an immunity (to an uncommon attacking type) but it doesn't have the defense or even speed to utilize those resistances. It doesn't have the opportunities to switch in and even if it does get it, it could very well be 2hko'd by even some of the stronger resists. It does great damage when it gets in, it's just getting it in that's the problem. Not to mention, UU is infested with fighting and fire types, and Earthquake is everywhere.
 

SJCrew

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Am I missing something about Zapdos staying S-rank while Raikou isn't? I don't think Zapdos has a single set that's better than Raikou's Sub CM. Raikou's Specs is probably better too, but admittedly, I don't fool around with that much (Zapdos's HP Flying is pretty cool).
 
Am I missing something about Zapdos staying S-rank while Raikou isn't? I don't think Zapdos has a single set that's better than Raikou's Sub CM. Raikou's Specs is probably better too, but admittedly, I don't fool around with that much (Zapdos's HP Flying is pretty cool).
Probably the reasons would be due to the following, based off the S-rank definitions
-Versatility: Zapdos can do a variety of sets, both offensively and defensively (although I haven't seen the agility sweep set used as listed in the analysis) while raikou is more limited to specs and SubCM (I don't care what anyone says, raikou should never run a scarf as you fail to 1HKO heracross with extrasensory, which is a major failure for any scarfer)
-Walling: Subroost Zapdos should be enough said here, I think. Raikou can set up a fast sub, but its physical bulk and lack of resistances rather hurt it in keeping said sub intact.
-Being walled by: To be fair, Raikou can come out on top here by using CM, but it does need significant help to do so if any bulky ground types/snorlax/weird niche checks stand in its way. Raikou also does not appreciate aggressive play that results in someone repeatedly breaking its subs rather than switching in fear. Zapdos can deal with this sort of thing better due to roost, not so much can raikou.

I think the biggest issue for raikou is that to some degree, its more predictable, resulting in more generic checks being able to be switched into it (e.g snorlax/rhyperior) whereas its more difficult to do this against zapdos without being certain of its set (zapdos can better run HP grass against rhyperior, although snorlax is still reasonably safe depending on what sets are being run on each pokemon).
 
I don't know if Zapdos is better than Raikou, but personally I appreciate Zapdos' fighting resist (which unfortunately comes with a rock weakness) and its Electric/Fire/Grass coverage. With only 2 move coverage, Sub CM Raikou needs more stuff out of the way (eg HP Ice needs Rhyperior and Swampert out of the way. HP Grass needs Roserade and Shaymin out of the way) whereas I find Zapdos can deal super effective damage to large portions of many teams right off the bat.

I'm not convinced predictability is a factor. Zapdos has more things it can run, but can it really turn a surprise into an advantage? If someone moves Umbreon in on my Zapdos expecting LO offense, and I end up behind a sub, does the surprise give me any advantage I wouldn't otherwise have? It CAN (eg. Snorlax moves in expecting to eat a TBolt, ends up taking a toxic and getting sub-roost stalled) but I don't think it happens often enough that I can really give Zapdos points for unpredictability. Nailing Rhyperior IMO is not a surprise-kill. I always assume Zapdos has HP Grass, in much the same way I always assume Victini to have Grass Knot. If I were to use Rhyperior against Zapdos at all, I would move Rhyperior in on an expected TBolt and switch right out to a better matchup (just so that better Zapdos counter has to eat a HP Grass instead of a TBolt). To me, losing Rhyperior to Zapdos is a misplay (or an intentional sac), not a surprise kill.

An example of turning a surprise into an advantage would actually be Specs Raikou when your opponent expects sub/CM. Two common counters, Umbreon and Snorlax, would not appreciate eating specs Aura Sphere. The problem with that is that this has to occur on the very first move Raikou makes, as its set is revealed the first time it attacks.
 

Monte Cristo

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My response to this ambipom shit

If you know me, you know I hate ambipom, and think it's generally stupid, so here's some calcs to back up Moose since his calc is failing to work with beat up

252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 153-182 (42.03 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Beat Up vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 143-169 (44.82 - 52.97%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO (assuming 108 damage from calculations) (assuming you're willing to keep your entire team perfectly healthy just to use 1 move, which generally means, you'll be making shit plays to keep 1 move at a base power which barely manages to 2HKO one things checks, come on people, the amount of support this move needs to be consistently USABLE is ridiculous)
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Qwilfish: 107-126 (32.03 - 37.72%) -- 0.37% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 152-179 (38.67 - 45.54%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 101-121 (26.37 - 31.59%) -- possible 4HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 25.74 - 30.23%
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 31.28 - 37.43%
252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 36.74 - 43.09%
252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 36.54 - 43.65%
252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 27.22 - 32.92%
252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 28.46 - 33.52%
252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 29.2 - 34.65%
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 29.6 - 35.19%
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 30.02 - 35.27%
252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 30.76 - 36.39%
252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 39.26 - 46.42%
252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Return vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Togekiss: 37.53 - 44.23%
252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 37.96 - 44.44%
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Return vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 42.47 - 50.73%
252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Druddigon: 39.1 - 46.08%

And those calcs bar the Cofagrigus calc are all with 135 BP Beat Up (cofag calc because of mummy which in that case it's 108 BP if we're assuming mummy works that way) and generally perfect conditions for ambipom, and oh look, it has a assload of COUNTERS, not even just checks, but an assload of non niche counters, no pokemon in the UU tier can boast this much of full on non niche counters, which honestly makes using ambipom very hard seeing as, well, there's so much that can stop it! (druddi and quag are NOT niche purely for beating ambi people, they're good pokes if you damn gave them a try) not to mention the amount of CHECKS it has, don't even get me started on that.

Overall ambipom requires too much support (in the case of beat up) and is generally too easily stopped for it to imo be considered a A rank tier threat.

but that's just some food for thought for you guys that are boasting that ambipom has 3 checks, and 3 counters, which is FAR from close to true, and for the people that are saying that ambipom has an assload of pokemon that can stop it.
 
Okay, ambipom isnt a wall breaker. He's an offense fucker. Impressive calcs, but irrelevant for Ambi's job. So what if Cress can't 1HKO Kingdra, it's job isn't to be an offensive power house.

No one is saying Ambi is a complete game breaking monster. What is being said is that it has a niche at fucking over offense due to its high speed and Fake Out along with a strong STAB. I've been saying for a long time that Ambi doesn't deserve the hate that it gets. Also, Beat Up does nt activate Mummy, meaning it sits at 135 bp
 
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Monte Cristo

Banned deucer.
Okay, ambipom isnt a wall breaker. He's an offense fucker. Impressive calcs, but irrelevant for Ambi's job. So what if Cress can't 1HKO Kingdra, it's job isn't to be an offensive power house.

No one is saying Ambi is a complete game breaking monster. What is being said is that it has a niche at fucking over offense due to its high speed and Fake Out along with a strong STAB. I've been saying for a long time that Ambi doesn't deserve the hate that it gets. Also, Beat Up does nt activate Mummy, meaning it sits at 135 bp
Ambi doesn't deserve it's hate yeah, even more hate than claydol jesus, I think it's because of those outdated smog articles of what USED to be the metagame (very bulky offense, before the tornadus, melo, muskateer etc drops mainly) influencing people reading up to the current meta, it deserves hoenstly C+ at worst, I thought it was still A rank, sorry, I jsut wanted it to be B rank, which it is now, apologies.

Thinking of saying that quagsire deserves to be rank, but I'm hard pressed to nominate it, I'm between B or C rank rn.
 

ScraftyIsTheBest

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Hmm, I'm not so sure on where I'd put Quagsire. I do think it deserves a place on the list, it's somewhere in like C at best though. Unaware is a pretty cool ability imo that allows it to decently check Scrafty, Moxie Heracross/Krookodile, and the like. Its physical bulk is also alright, so it can take physical hits rather well, and reliable recovery is kind of cool too. What I don't like about it though is that it gets wrecked by Shaymin and Roserade, and is relatively helpless against them as they destroy it. Its special bulk also isn't that great, but it does do alright against SubCM HP Ice Raikou. It has to compete with other bulky Waters and Grounds though, so C is probably the highest it should be. Either way, I don't know where I'd put it, but yeah just my thoughts.

That reminds me, I think Poliwrath should be on the list somewhere, C at best imo, but it's a decent physical wall that can phaze.
 
Quag is bad. Unaware is cool, but if he's your method of dealing with Moxie sweepers, you're doing life wrong. He checks some stuff well but I'd almost always rather Swampert, even with his lack of recovery. I'd put him below c tbh.

Wrath is a good mon, I'd say c rank. He's got useful typing and a great ability which let's it fuck Crocune which can sweep like a motherfucker if you aren't prepared.
 
Ok Krook just came in and killed off that Pokemon that was weak anyway, now Quag comes in and:
+2 252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 121-144 (30.78 - 36.64%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Ok Krook just came in and killed off that Pokemon that was weak anyway, now Swampert comes in and:
+2 252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 234-276 (58.35 - 68.82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

oh dear.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 419-495 (104.48 - 123.44%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 316-372 (78.8 - 92.76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 218-257 (55.47 - 65.39%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Ok so Honchkrow actually beats both of these Pokemon in 2HKOs, but if you sack something, send in Quag and burn it then
252+ Atk Life Orb burned Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 109-129 (27.73 - 32.82%) -- possible 4HKO

Now recover back the health and congratulations you stopped the Honchkrow.
 
When you have Swampert, how does Krook get to +2? I could see +1 but not +2. Also, Scald only has a 100% chance to burn when the opponent uses it on you, so don't expect Quag to burn.
 
When you have Swampert, how does Krook get to +2?
Ok just imagine that it does though, at +1:
+1 252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 175-207 (43.64 - 51.62%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So Quagsire still takes it better and it has Recover to boot.

I could see +1 but not +2. Also, Scald only has a 100% chance to burn when the opponent uses it on you, so don't expect Quag to burn.
Not entirely sure whether serious or joking here, but I'm going to pray that this is a joke.
 
Yes, the burn part was a joke, but you can't count on it burning. And if it doesn't burn, Quag is still getting 2 hitted by BB. Yeah, Honch is taking a shit load of damage, but it's still accomplished taking out up to three pokemon based on your example. And in most situations Swampert is better for his ability to switch into more offensive threats and be able to threaten with Earthquakes. I'm not saying Quag doesn't have a niche, but in most situations I'd rather Pert.
 

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