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The WALLS thread!
- Thread starter Stratos
- Start date
what about dusclops and that sexy like, 600 defense with evolite
What happened to Celebi?!? O.O
With base 100 in all stats, access to instant recovery and a pretty useful ability, Celebi definitely deserves a mention here. Bold Nature with a defensive EV spread is recognisably better than the special variant and although Celebi's typing 'Psychic' isn't generally speaking the best for walling, 'Grass' is an underestimated yet useful type this gen. Celebi laugh's in the face of Pokemon like Rotom-W, Gyarados, Gastrodon, Breeloom but perhaps a better area in which it shines, is against common Choiced Sets that fail to harm it when locked in the wrong move. Some examples of this would be the following: Landorus, Terrakion, Politoed. However, although Celebi comes with it's own advantages it also has it's own draw backs. Tyranitar can easily smash this Pokemon with Crunch/Pursuit. Likewise defensive Celebi has a tough time against common threats such as Gengar, Dragonite, Infernape, Heatran, Tornadus, Toxicroak, Volcarona, Tentacruel(lol), but it does have a nice Thunderwave which the majority of the above would resent switching into. Leech Seed is another option which can be run over Thunderwave, which is generally better on a stall team with SR/Spikes support however in my opinion Thunderwave is the superior option for the average team.
Perhaps what puts people of using Celebi, is the fact that it can be turned into easy set up bait against Pokemon such as Subnite but the way I see it - every Pokemon has it's own draw backs. It's up to us (as Trainers lol) to exploit each individual Pokemon's advantages and thus built a team which effectively supports one another. Celebi is, generally speaking, one of the best OU walls by today's standards and therefore undoubtedly deserves a spot on many teams.
With base 100 in all stats, access to instant recovery and a pretty useful ability, Celebi definitely deserves a mention here. Bold Nature with a defensive EV spread is recognisably better than the special variant and although Celebi's typing 'Psychic' isn't generally speaking the best for walling, 'Grass' is an underestimated yet useful type this gen. Celebi laugh's in the face of Pokemon like Rotom-W, Gyarados, Gastrodon, Breeloom but perhaps a better area in which it shines, is against common Choiced Sets that fail to harm it when locked in the wrong move. Some examples of this would be the following: Landorus, Terrakion, Politoed. However, although Celebi comes with it's own advantages it also has it's own draw backs. Tyranitar can easily smash this Pokemon with Crunch/Pursuit. Likewise defensive Celebi has a tough time against common threats such as Gengar, Dragonite, Infernape, Heatran, Tornadus, Toxicroak, Volcarona, Tentacruel(lol), but it does have a nice Thunderwave which the majority of the above would resent switching into. Leech Seed is another option which can be run over Thunderwave, which is generally better on a stall team with SR/Spikes support however in my opinion Thunderwave is the superior option for the average team.
Perhaps what puts people of using Celebi, is the fact that it can be turned into easy set up bait against Pokemon such as Subnite but the way I see it - every Pokemon has it's own draw backs. It's up to us (as Trainers lol) to exploit each individual Pokemon's advantages and thus built a team which effectively supports one another. Celebi is, generally speaking, one of the best OU walls by today's standards and therefore undoubtedly deserves a spot on many teams.
I've tried running defensive Celebi on various stall teams and, while it looks good on paper, it never quite gets the job done. Being weak as fuck means that Scizor and Ttar walk all over it, which makes its ability to wall things like Rotom-W suddenly not so impressive. Another downside of being weak as fuck is that is that if you have a setup move and aren't weak to Grass, its walling capabilities go down the drain. It also has serious 4MSS. You need Recover and Giga Drain, but then you also want to take advantage of its various other vital/useful moves, like Perish Song, Heal Bell, Leech Seed, Thunder Wave, HP Fire, HP Ice, and U-turn. Without HP Fire, Spikers love you; without HP Ice, Dragons love you; without Perish Song, everything sets up on you; without Heal Bell, what are you really doing for your team... You get the picture. The only advantage Celebi has over Ferrothorn as a wall is not being burned by Scald. Considering he can set up hazards, hit back hard, and not be made into Pursuit-bait, that's just not enough.
As a wall, you're right. However, Celebi has unpredictability on its side. It can run a variety of set from a wall to Nasty Plot. It's large move pool does admittedly gives it 4MSS, but it also increases the number of thing opponents need to be mindful of. If you don't reveal your moves, you can play mind games with your opponent, increasing the fairy's usefulness and longevity.
No doubt that Ferrothorn is THE wall of Gen V, but Celebi has a definite defensive niche.
No one here tried dusclops? With Eviolite, it obviously has incredible defence and sp.def, he also has some pretty useful moves such as Will O Wisp that can cripple the opponent, Pain Split to gain some life back, Taunt to shut down some pokemons and stops them from either setting up or inflicting statuses.. He also has Night Shade, it still deals a nice amount of damage I guess.
he dies too fast to SR/spike/toxic spikes, poison/burn and sandstorm/hail..
Milotic > Vaporeon as mixed wall
Especially, the resttalking set due to marvel scale and great SpDef . Many physical threats cries to this set since most moves are 3hko (only Outgare from CB haxorus and Seed Bomb from Breloom can 2hko her) and can still burn/damage/shuffle while sleeptalking.
in special side, only STAB Thunder and Leaf Storm can OHKO her and everything else is 2hko or 3hko.
it's also hard to set-up on her due to shuffling thru Dragon Tail...
Especially, the resttalking set due to marvel scale and great SpDef . Many physical threats cries to this set since most moves are 3hko (only Outgare from CB haxorus and Seed Bomb from Breloom can 2hko her) and can still burn/damage/shuffle while sleeptalking.
in special side, only STAB Thunder and Leaf Storm can OHKO her and everything else is 2hko or 3hko.
it's also hard to set-up on her due to shuffling thru Dragon Tail...
Has anyone tried Nidoqueen?
Nidoqueen (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Toxic Spikes
- Earth Power
- Flamethrower
- Ice Beam
It has nice resistances to Rock, Bug, and Fighting making it a a great pokemon to handle the likes of Terrakion, Breloom, Scizor, Lucario, Toxicroak, Conkelldur and other stuff like that. Not to mention it can handle Tyranitar lacking Ice Beam. Fun fact: Nidoqueen has an uninvested 112/104 offensive stats with Sheer Force. I know Xephyr already touched on this a little, but I thought I'd bring it up again.
Nidoqueen (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Toxic Spikes
- Earth Power
- Flamethrower
- Ice Beam
It has nice resistances to Rock, Bug, and Fighting making it a a great pokemon to handle the likes of Terrakion, Breloom, Scizor, Lucario, Toxicroak, Conkelldur and other stuff like that. Not to mention it can handle Tyranitar lacking Ice Beam. Fun fact: Nidoqueen has an uninvested 112/104 offensive stats with Sheer Force. I know Xephyr already touched on this a little, but I thought I'd bring it up again.
Once 5th gen DW pokes come out i expect this guy to rise a lot in usage:
@ lefties
252 HP / 252 Def
Impish
-Wish
-Waterfall
-Protect
-Toxic
This guy is one of the best physical walls around.It takes physical hits even better than Skarmory and only a little bit worse than Hippo.It also provides massive support in the form of huge wishes that bring to full life almost anything (267 HP).Finally this little fella has one of the most awesome abilites,Regenerator,which enables him to focus on healing its teammates instead of spending time to Protect and being potential setup fodder.
The downsides that he has are that he is very vulnerable to special attacks(any special super effective attack except hidden power ohkoes) and is a sitting duck for everything that can take a Waterfall and things that are immune or don't mind Toxic.
@ lefties252 HP / 252 Def
Impish
-Wish
-Waterfall
-Protect
-Toxic
This guy is one of the best physical walls around.It takes physical hits even better than Skarmory and only a little bit worse than Hippo.It also provides massive support in the form of huge wishes that bring to full life almost anything (267 HP).Finally this little fella has one of the most awesome abilites,Regenerator,which enables him to focus on healing its teammates instead of spending time to Protect and being potential setup fodder.
The downsides that he has are that he is very vulnerable to special attacks(any special super effective attack except hidden power ohkoes) and is a sitting duck for everything that can take a Waterfall and things that are immune or don't mind Toxic.
Ingrain makes you stay in, so it's essentially a dead Cradily when they switch something in to take it out. EQ is a better option IMO than your 2 listed moves in the 4th moveslot.
(@ the Cradily set)
(@ the Cradily set)
If I remember correctly Umbreon actually has 95 / 110 / 130 defenses, making it even better :D
Umbreon is garbage, dark-only typing is terrible. Scizor comes in for free and threatens with U-turn, leaving you with the choice of "let Umbreon die or let my opponent get momentum"; Terrakion can grab a Justified boost off a weak Payback and will proceed to smash your switch-in even harder than it already does; Breloom switches in with impunity and can start Subbing / Bulking Up; Lucario appreciates the free turns to Swords Dance / Nasty Plot in your face.
As for my own contribution to this thread, I've been using Hitmontop lately; it's great for spinning because it counters the most common SR user (Tyranitar) to hell and back. Intimidate is awesome, and in conjunction with fighting typing, gives a nice pivot into a Stone Edge from Terrakion / Landorus. Ghosts can't block it because of Foresight. It can also switch into Ferrothorn with little worry. Unfortunately it gets screwed by Skarmory, which is not cool since I'm trying to get rid of said metal bird's hazards. Overall though, Hitmontop is pretty good, I like him.
I would also like to mention Deoxys-D, who is bulky as fuck, has a cool fighting resist, counters CM Reuniclus with Taunt + Night Shade (much appreciated on stall teams), and Spikes on a shitload of mons, the most obvious exception being Scizor (which is why Heatran, preferably the SpD variant, is a good partner, since it counters said metal bug and sets up SR). Hell, he can even run a suicide SR + Spikes set reminiscent of his late cousin, Deoxys-S.
As for my own contribution to this thread, I've been using Hitmontop lately; it's great for spinning because it counters the most common SR user (Tyranitar) to hell and back. Intimidate is awesome, and in conjunction with fighting typing, gives a nice pivot into a Stone Edge from Terrakion / Landorus. Ghosts can't block it because of Foresight. It can also switch into Ferrothorn with little worry. Unfortunately it gets screwed by Skarmory, which is not cool since I'm trying to get rid of said metal bird's hazards. Overall though, Hitmontop is pretty good, I like him.
I would also like to mention Deoxys-D, who is bulky as fuck, has a cool fighting resist, counters CM Reuniclus with Taunt + Night Shade (much appreciated on stall teams), and Spikes on a shitload of mons, the most obvious exception being Scizor (which is why Heatran, preferably the SpD variant, is a good partner, since it counters said metal bug and sets up SR). Hell, he can even run a suicide SR + Spikes set reminiscent of his late cousin, Deoxys-S.
I have used Duslops extensively. His pain problem is the lack of leftovers, which pretty much means your forced to use him on a rain/sun team always with a rapid spinner. Then you also need another pokemon with heal bell or else your forced to use rest because it's status fodder, which kinda sucks.
It's bulk is mighty impressive though, it you need a quick fix to a lot of physical threats outside of Scrafty and Tyranitar, this pokemon is the man. I would not recommend you use him as a special wall though, there are better pokemon and he is trick fodder.
Not a bad pokemon, but not something you just just slap onto any team with that needs a spin blocker, that's which Jellicent is used soo much more often.
Eviolite Ferroseed is a really good wall in the lower tiers. It's basically a tiny Ferrothorn there, though it can't hit back as hard, meaning it needs to rely on Leech Seed for damage, it has more than enough defense to take any hit that isn't fire. It also provides a great defensive core with Alomomola, like Ferrothorn and Jellicent
The OP doesn't mention stall breaker mew(to my knowledge). I've been using it recently in OU, and I've found it to be an exceptional wall. By itself, it walls most of the physically attacking metagame, and can take out top tier threats like Dragonite with Ice Beam. It does struggle with Scizor, but Scizor isn't incredibly difficult to counter with another teammate.
If I remember correctly offense stats don't matter on a wall and Umbreon has all the tools it needs to be a good wall. The typing isn't that bad either.
Umbreon doesn't have all the tools he needs to be a good wall when you consider what threatens umber on to begin with. Offenses are also very important on a wall this generation. Walls need to be capable of doing something to harm that which they wall, otherwise they become setup fodder and lose you the game. It's why blessed isn't the most appealing pokemom to slap on teams if you want an all purpose stop to every special attacker out there.
The typing is bad, but that isn't his issues. It's the movepool. As a wall, he does nothing to threaten a majority of the Pokemon who switch into him. He can't do anything to other walls and is setup fodder for offensive pokemom. If I see an Umbreon, my chesto rest volcorona is going to come in everytime and laugh its ass off. Or my hydration Lapras. Or my psycho shift sigilyph. Or my calm mind reuniclus because you're faster than me and payback does no damage. Or my sword's dance scizor. Or my taunt mandibuzz. Or my taunt deoxys-d. Or my quiver dance intimidate Masqueran from the dirt of the lowest tier imaginable beneath nu.
This isn't to say that Umbreon can't do anything at all. He has his applications, such as being able to check CM Lati@s. But there isn't much point in carrying around a wall who stops few things and has to run from everything else in a tier. You won't even be able to build a core around it because it loses to too many things.
The typing is bad, but that isn't his issues. It's the movepool. As a wall, he does nothing to threaten a majority of the Pokemon who switch into him. He can't do anything to other walls and is setup fodder for offensive pokemom. If I see an Umbreon, my chesto rest volcorona is going to come in everytime and laugh its ass off. Or my hydration Lapras. Or my psycho shift sigilyph. Or my calm mind reuniclus because you're faster than me and payback does no damage. Or my sword's dance scizor. Or my taunt mandibuzz. Or my taunt deoxys-d. Or my quiver dance intimidate Masqueran from the dirt of the lowest tier imaginable beneath nu.
This isn't to say that Umbreon can't do anything at all. He has his applications, such as being able to check CM Lati@s. But there isn't much point in carrying around a wall who stops few things and has to run from everything else in a tier. You won't even be able to build a core around it because it loses to too many things.
I am not really sure this goes here , but im busy developing a walling combo for OU wich imo is really good. I was trying to find uncommon pokemon/sets or combos that can work. This was made to wall the most prominent physical attacks in OU to no end, namely : Breloom, Terrakion, Tyranitar,Cloyster,Gliscor,Haxorus,Scrafty,Scizor among others. The combo is like this :
Relaxed Steelix @ leftovers
Ability : Sheer force
EV's 252 hp, 252 def, 4 atk
Moves : Stealth rock, dragon tail, ice fang , gyro ball/eq
Set explaining :
Steelix was a defensive behemoth back in GCS, but a lot has changed since then. New very powerful fighting moves, but also in increase in much more powerful pokemon on both sides of the spectrum. Steelix reaches 354 hp and and 548 defense with this set. Stealth rock is obvious, dragon tail is for phazing, a sheer force ice fang even with no atk evs is a 2ko on dragonite with ms broken and on gliscor, both of who fail to 2ko you back. Gyro ball is just a hard hitting attack against stuff like terrakion.
Some damage calcs :
Dragonite Adamant with 252 atk's +2 Outrage vs Steelix : 26.8% - 31.6%
Dragonite Adamant with 252 atk's +1 Earthquake vs Steelix : 44.6% - 53.1% ( never a 2ko with leftovers).
Scizors choice band superpower vs Steelix : 52.5% - 62.1% ( never a 2ko with leftovers and the atk drops)
Impish Gyarados @ leftovers
Ability : Intimidate
EV's : 252 hp , 252 def , 4 atk
Moves : Rest , sleep talk , waterfall, roar
Set explaining :
Your standard resttalk gyarados, the other part of this walling combo. Gyara reaches 394 and 282 defense on this set but 423 defense when factoring in Intimidate.
Combo explaining :
Gyarados only has 2 weaknesses, rock and electric. Steelix is immune to electric and resists rock attacks 4x ( se from terrakion does pathetic damage and cc does pathetic damage vs gyara and he is then -1def-1spdef so he will likely be switching again).Gyarados using resttalk means he can absorb wow and scalds as if they are nothing.
Steelix weaknesses are fire,ground,water and fighting ( all 2x). Gyarados is immune to ground , and resists fire,water and fighting 2x. He is also immune to toxic and twave, something his team or even gyarados greatly aprecciates.
The key to this combo however, is to play mindgames with your opponent due the use of steelix physical bulk and intimidate. For example, after gyardos intimidates breloom his attacks do:
Adamant breloom's focus punch (252atk) -1 against steelix: 44.1% - 52.5% ( not a 2ko with leftovers)
Same brelooms seeb bomb @ -1 vs steelix : 11.9% - 14.1%.
He cant do much except switching out, if he sword dances he risks being roared or dragon tailed out. If he stays in and attacks , his attacks do nothing because steelix and gyara complement each other niceley , and every gyarados switch comes with intimidate.
I havent tested it out much, but on paper this sounds promising. I hope people get the idea even tough my explanation is a little bad.Someone interested here to help me out with this?
Relaxed Steelix @ leftovers
Ability : Sheer force
EV's 252 hp, 252 def, 4 atk
Moves : Stealth rock, dragon tail, ice fang , gyro ball/eq
Set explaining :
Steelix was a defensive behemoth back in GCS, but a lot has changed since then. New very powerful fighting moves, but also in increase in much more powerful pokemon on both sides of the spectrum. Steelix reaches 354 hp and and 548 defense with this set. Stealth rock is obvious, dragon tail is for phazing, a sheer force ice fang even with no atk evs is a 2ko on dragonite with ms broken and on gliscor, both of who fail to 2ko you back. Gyro ball is just a hard hitting attack against stuff like terrakion.
Some damage calcs :
Dragonite Adamant with 252 atk's +2 Outrage vs Steelix : 26.8% - 31.6%
Dragonite Adamant with 252 atk's +1 Earthquake vs Steelix : 44.6% - 53.1% ( never a 2ko with leftovers).
Scizors choice band superpower vs Steelix : 52.5% - 62.1% ( never a 2ko with leftovers and the atk drops)
Impish Gyarados @ leftovers
Ability : Intimidate
EV's : 252 hp , 252 def , 4 atk
Moves : Rest , sleep talk , waterfall, roar
Set explaining :
Your standard resttalk gyarados, the other part of this walling combo. Gyara reaches 394 and 282 defense on this set but 423 defense when factoring in Intimidate.
Combo explaining :
Gyarados only has 2 weaknesses, rock and electric. Steelix is immune to electric and resists rock attacks 4x ( se from terrakion does pathetic damage and cc does pathetic damage vs gyara and he is then -1def-1spdef so he will likely be switching again).Gyarados using resttalk means he can absorb wow and scalds as if they are nothing.
Steelix weaknesses are fire,ground,water and fighting ( all 2x). Gyarados is immune to ground , and resists fire,water and fighting 2x. He is also immune to toxic and twave, something his team or even gyarados greatly aprecciates.
The key to this combo however, is to play mindgames with your opponent due the use of steelix physical bulk and intimidate. For example, after gyardos intimidates breloom his attacks do:
Adamant breloom's focus punch (252atk) -1 against steelix: 44.1% - 52.5% ( not a 2ko with leftovers)
Same brelooms seeb bomb @ -1 vs steelix : 11.9% - 14.1%.
He cant do much except switching out, if he sword dances he risks being roared or dragon tailed out. If he stays in and attacks , his attacks do nothing because steelix and gyara complement each other niceley , and every gyarados switch comes with intimidate.
I havent tested it out much, but on paper this sounds promising. I hope people get the idea even tough my explanation is a little bad.Someone interested here to help me out with this?
The problem with Steelix is its paper Special Defense. With that set, Magnezone comes in on three of its movees and does 61% - 72.3% with HP Fire. A strong spuer effective Special attack wipes it out. In fact, that entire core is beaten by Magnezone.
Its a physical walling set , so your comment is invalid. You dont use skarmory to battle magnezone either.
It is valid. Getting trapped by mag is going to be inevitable if you're actually going to use it against a team with one. Also, don't forget about some mixed mons or mons that can attack from both sides. With weak SDef like Steelix, it will take near perfect prediction to use it, otherwise you're toast. Take Mence for example. As far as you know, that Outrage you're switching into could be a Draco Meteor or Fire Blast that will wreck Steelix.
What about heatran in OU, it can stop people powering up with roar, and can stand against dragon moves. It is a very hard pokemon to take down if you dont have the right man power.