Gen 6 The XY Ubers Viability Ranking Thread [Read Post #1000]

[Haruno]

So much wrong .-. I'll bash it later

Reserved. How the hell is the only thing you got right in your post about dialga

In gen 6, the rain nerf affected Kyogre's amount of support provided, for example scizor/forretress/ferrothorn's x4 weakness to fire isn't mitigated now, and sweepers like Kingra or Kabutops aren't viable now. While choiced sets are still really good, Kyogre isn't 'the pokemon that we must put in any team that is not using sun' anymore. For me Kyogre is A+.

First off, kyogre was never a mon you just slap on a team that doesn't have groudon. Hell in some cases it was actually preferred to have both. So again I don't see what you're trying to say. Has the rain nerf hurt kyogre and made (insert SS user here) not as useful? Most certainly though if its reason to make ogre an A+ rank or even an A rank is yet to be seen.

Arceus-Ghost lost his spinblocking niche and isn't as useful anymore, and considering the popularity of Ho-oh and Yveltal, considering that Lati@s isn't used anymore, I think Arceus-Ghost is B+ (or maybe A-, not sure of this, as steel lost its resistance to ghost).

This post made zero sense. Latis were powerless before ghostceus last gen, and they're even more powerless now though bringing up 5th gen into 6th gen is mostly irrelevant. Ghostceus doesn't fear ho oh.

+2 252 Atk Spooky Plate Arceus-Ghost Shadow Force vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 484-571 (116.3 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

so even a bulky ho oh has zero chance of surviving a force after a sd boost. As for yveltal, yes it resists ghostceus' stab which sucks but ghostceus who mostly runs an sd set now to great effect since ghost is now the new dragon, must be wary of carelessly coming in on ghostceus since it's outsped and for the sets of ghostceus packing stone edge.

+2 252 Atk Arceus-Ghost Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Yveltal: 430-508 (94.2 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

so ygod isn't exactly safe from ghostceus. But disregarding that, you had absolutely no substance to your post.

Yveltal is really versatile and is powerful, and gets near(?) flawless coverage between dark/flying/fighting. Depending on his sets, he can also check some of the most proeminent threats in the metagame. However, the SR weakness, the unability to brute force through some walls, prevents him being S-rank. A+ imo

Dark/fly gives him near perfect coverage bar mons with rare types (carbink, tytar, etc) Again your post lacks any substance and is determined to be as broad as possible which isn't a good way to post a rank. As for being unable to break through walls, who the hell cares? It has taunt. GG blissey, GG chansey, GG lugiass so I don't see your point there.
Is yveltal worthy of A/S rank? Possibly but your post has no solid reasoning whatsoever.

How not to talk about Ho-Oh in this meta, Ho-Oh is one of the most dominant force right now, but it still has the huge SR weakness. And no, defog isn't enough tho prevent SR. Still, if there's a pokemon in S-rank, Ho-Oh comes close, as he checks a shitload of threats in this meta thanks to his great stats (bulky specially and hitting hard physically), forcing some pokemon to use a rock-type attack just for him. Instant recovery is also really nice. A+(/S)

Nothing with any real substance in this post besides ho oh is sr weak and defog isn't enough to alleviate it, which is true. The rest of your post doesn't say much though, saying checks a shit load of threats doesn't mean anything. List examples of what it can do as opposed to just saying things.

And I disagree with Arceus-N being S-rank. Note that I won't talk about Wallceus because it's plain bad, use Hippowdon instead. The will-o-wisp buff really crippled Arceus, since every Giratinas and other Arceuses are using it. That forces him to use Lum Berry as an item. That is problematic, as he only has a base 120 attack (which is ok at best) and moves at 80 base power (this is low). Not only you're not OHKO'ing most Ubers that invest in HP, you can be crippled by a status or take a powerful attack, which can be painful despite Arceus's bulk.
Unlike what some of us may think, you need a free turn in order to setup, because, you're not switching in any reasonably powerful attack, such as, say, Palkia's Spacial Rend due to your bad typing.
Chances are, if you manage to pull up a sweep with Arceus, you could have done it with another pokemon as well.
It's not all dark for Arceus though, as extremespeed's priority is still useful to pick up some weakened threats, but you're not going to revenge a 70% health Mewtwo.
For me Arceus-Normal in definitely not S, it's A or mayyyybeee A+.

Don't try setting up with ekiller when you're against a WoM user? He's not forced to use a lum berry at all when you're using offense. You should be able to apply enough pressure where it won't be needed and instead opt to run an item like Life orb. Giras outright lose when you're at +2 so they're a non issue. Supportceus absolutely must win the speed tie with WoM in order to beat ekiller not to mention WoM has to hit so the odds are against you.

The rest of the post is just full of garbage. Arceus has solid 120/120/120 bulk which although it won't be able to switch into moves, it can certainly come in after a KO or whatnot and get a free set up turn in which it would proceed to sweep. Ekiller is the absolute best at being a lategame cleaner so I have no idea where your "any other mon could do what ekiller does" argument comes from (unless you're talking about bellydrum linoone which has far more problems than ekiller). You're not trying to use SD on turn 1 and trying to sweep, for some reason you seem to not use it as a late game cleaner.

Now on Groudon. That is a hard pokemon to rank. On one hand, losing eternal sunlight is a huge nerf to Groudon, on the other hand, he still sweeps like a truck. Still the sun helps to weaken Kyogre's power, and makes Ho-Oh what he is. The Rock Polish set is amazing now, using the moveset of RP/EQ/SE/Fire Punch (you don't need Dragon claw anymore), and you can actually attack directly for a huge amount of damage, and setting up later. The support set didn't change much, as he still checks the most powerful physical threats.
What holds him back is that his old checks are getting better or are used more (Lugia, Hippowdon, Arceus-Water), as well as the popularity of Yveltal and the buff to will-o-wisp. He doesn't shape the metagame as he did before. A (at least A-).

You're not sweeping like a truck because truck's dont sweep. That's a broom, lrn2analogy. Secondly groudon isn't sweeping with its lack of priority + lack of reliable recovery + lack luster speed without an RP boost which it has a far harder time achieving than other top tier threats like xerneas and arceus. Also kyogre realistically will never fight in sun so that's a moot point. Not to mention that ho oh does not need sun at all to function, it can utilize sun but it is perfectly capable of surviving without sun support. I really don't get what your point about RP is so I'll ignore it. Groudon is a soft check to most physical threats, and in some cases it outright loses to what its supposed to check. Groudon's checks were never limited to what you listed so.............................................................................. yay for logic

Xerneas can be checked too easily imo, but requires specific pokemons such as Ho-Oh, Spdef Kyogre, Scizor, Aegislash...The thing is that they check all sets from Xerneas, unlike for example Kyogre. Also thanks to the team preview any competent player will preserve his Xerneas counter (although this argument is also true for the opponent, just weaken the xerneas counter and 6-0). The scarf set I've never used myself, but it seems quite good. For the moment, A.

Checked too easily? The only mon that reliably switches into xern without fear is aegis. Ho oh fears rock slide, ogre fears thunder, zor fears hp fire, etc. The rest of your post makes no sense at all. Geomancy is pretty meh. Xern has a variety of nifty moves and can also function as a cleric among other things. Overall nothing in here is solid reasoning on why xern should be A nor does it seem like you even know how it's used properly.

I'm still not sure about Zekrom. Ok, he's powerful and all, decently bulky as well, but it's a pain to bring him into battle due to his lack of resistances (good luck bringing him in Ho-Oh's Sacred Fire), and a team with Groudon makes you sad, now that spamming Dragon-type attacks is much riskier. One of the few that can revenge MMX (need this weakened if he has a defense boost though) and MMY, Ho-Oh in sun (this is huge, but again, sun means Groudon), and one of the few dragon that forces Xerneas to use moonblast instead of geomancy due to the sheer power of Bolt Strike. B+, not sure

Resistances to elec/water/fly/fire/steel are still solid resistances to have. No idea why you say zekrom is switching into sacred fire nor why you say groudon makes krom sad since krom can overpower groudon since it still has access to a powerful draco meteor and band outrage 2hkos anyhow, not to mention groudon lacks reliable recovery. Being able to revenge mewtwo/x/y is just saying scarfs outspeed and can possibly ko which isn't exclusive to krom so I don't see why you say it. Ho oh will not stay in on a non burned krom under any circumstances, so don't see why you bring that up. Xern will never try setting up on krom.................... so again your post lacks any substance and just brings in random irrelevant examples that don't do a good job of proving a point.




Rest I can't be assed to respond to though I suggest learning the metagame more before you try to make claims about a mons ranking since from the sound of your post, you only look at a single set or at best two and then try to make some random analysis of a mon which isn't effective in the slightest.

 

[polop]

Ok so um, since Arceus Normal is a rather controversial matter, I'm going to try to present arguments for it being A and S. I really can't decide but I do believe I understand why different people want it in different locations.

Looking at the S-rank definition:

The titans of the game. They bear massive offensive and defensive capabilities. Pokemon in this tier are extremely diverse, capable of fulfilling multiple roles on both defensive and offensive ends. There is virtually zero opportunity cost in using these Pokemon. They require no support from the team and have immense utility to offer.

Ok just looking at Extremekiller we can see its got great offensive capability, bearing the ability to sweep teams easily and setup just as easily due to its innate bulk by virtue of being an Arceus. In terms of defensive capabilities, like Hack said it provides priority. While it is true that not every team needs priority, one of the greatest things it does while teambuilding is let you revenge kill without using some scarf pokemon that loses all momentum after it revenges something and reveals what its locked into. Extremekiller is not locked into a move which actually heavily reduces its opportunity cost. Its the strongest user of priority and probably the only thing that can pull of revenge killing without using a Choice Scarf, (another being Yveltal but point is not another Arceus form can do this (technically only Yveltal can KIND OF do this and not as well due to the fact it mostly goes special), which is why opportunity cost is reduced) and gives it some defensive capability.

I'm not going to go into Wallceus this gen because in my opinion its not very effective at all, Arceus Normal can use leftovers but its typing sucks defensively, its only defensive utility is being a revenge killer that isn't forced to use a Choice item (argue bandceus if you want but it tricks that away most of the time after its completed its revenge killing role for a team). What does Wallceus beat that another support arceus fails I ask you? The answer is essentially nothing.

Arceus-Normal needs support if you want it to sweep, but however its sole purpose isn't exactly sweeping all the time. It can be used in conjunction with something like a Mega Gengar to stop Support Arceus early on. It can be used with something like an Offensive Groudon to help its partner sweep. Support is mandatory if your trying to sweep with it but by no means is it limited to just a sweeping role, it can provide support to a team just because of how mundanely powerful ExtremeSpeed is and the fact its checks just happen to be support arcs that most teams hate and that it can bypass some of those Support Arceus's.

The fact Arceus-Normal can compress all these roles into one mon (Revenge killer + Sweeper / wall harming partner + Support Arceus remover) lets it provide great utility to a team. Simply put, this quite nicely matches most of the criteria that the S-rank definition provides, and pretty much explains why its been so high in usage. It couldn't do this last gen due to the fact that there were more checks to it, but now its able to turn a completely different boat now that its checks have somewhat dissapeared.

As compressible as Arceus-Normal is though, simply put, his typing sucks. You can't switch into any move unless its what, Shadow Ball??? And how many mons use that? Certainly the lack of weaknesses help it setup, but it pretty much strictly limits its defensive utility as it can really only come in after something's fallen. I mean it helps that his STAB boosts the power to give it the strongest priority in the game, but it simply doesn't outweigh the fact its going to be need to somewhat preserved to keep on doing its role through out a match, which limits its utility to much lower levels. Opportunity cost starts becoming an issue because this thing's longevity is smaller then any other Arceus's (yes it'll stay alive longer in a match because you refuse to bring it out, unlike other Arc's which are out there doing stuff). Like Ice Arceus, this is one of the few Arceus forms that do not frequently run Recover because they lack the defensive typing (and in Arc Norm's case, somewhat also because it needs greater coverage), it can run it but its going to miss out on some utility that it once provided.

In fact due to being unable to come in repeatedly through out the match unless it runs recover (in which case it needs support), it can't fulfill its roles at revenge killing unless it comes in after something died (it can't switch and stop something else and come in on its attack). Regardless its utility looks like it gets hindered to the point where it can run a myriad of multiple roles very mediocrely, allowing it to compress roles in a very unique fashion giving it a very decent role. Its only due to this strange 4mss (I wanna run SD + Recover + Espeed + EQ + Force / Claw really badly but can't) that it occasionally needs the support of its partners to do its job (for example, it won't stop Support Arceus if your opponent brought a skarmory or Physically Defensive Yveltal will it? The guys never going to switch in his support arceus!)

Now looking at the A-rank definition:

Reserved for Pokemon with impressive offensive or defensive capability. These Pokemon are typically the first to be considered to fulfill certain roles and have very little opportunity cost. They require little support to function and may have significant utility.

Now since this thing fits both ranks I propose a simple solution:

my solution

Ban Normal Arceus for being a contradiction.

What did you expect a real solution to this?

 

[Bossness]

I am not really interested in this thread but I see something incorrect being started frequently: support arceus with will-o-wisp can beat extremekiller arceus. If arceus holds lum berry and uses swords dance on the turn support arceus switches in, it will always win against them. Also, if Arceus-Normal holds life orb and uses a Jolly nature, it 2hkos 252 hp arceus formes past burn if they lack a resistance to Extreme Speed, while Arceus-rock or Arceus-steel must hit Will-O-Wisp, win four speed ties (Life Orb Earthquake does more than 52% even after burn, so they must Recover twice after burning it in order to weaken it, before knocking it out with Judgment), and avoid getting critical hitted for those three turns... (.85)(0.5)^4(0.9375)^3. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[MMII]

polop , standard Yveltal's Sucker Punch is actually stronger than Jolly LO Ekiller's Espeed by about 14% (of ekiller's epseed). Clearly, I'll need to get Hugendugen to educate you about priority.

 

[cfdu1202]

First off, kyogre was never a mon you just slap on a team that doesn't have groudon. Hell in some cases it was actually preferred to have both. So again I don't see what you're trying to say. Has the rain nerf hurt kyogre and made (insert SS user here) not as useful? Most certainly though if its reason to make ogre an A+ rank or even an A rank is yet to be seen.

Come on, it was just a statement to the general usefulness of Kyogre that makes him hard not to use it in a team, that's why I put the apostrophes. It was obviously an exaggeration, but you cannot argue that Kyogre isn't defining the meta like he did before. His ranking must step down a bit, if we don't change the ranking method.

This post made zero sense. Latis were powerless before ghostceus last gen, and they're even more powerless now though bringing up 5th gen into 6th gen is mostly irrelevant. Ghostceus doesn't fear ho oh.

+2 252 Atk Spooky Plate Arceus-Ghost Shadow Force vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 484-571 (116.3 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

so even a bulky ho oh has zero chance of surviving a force after a sd boost. As for yveltal, yes it resists ghostceus' stab which sucks but ghostceus who mostly runs an sd set now to great effect since ghost is now the new dragon, must be wary of carelessly coming in on ghostceus since it's outsped and for the sets of ghostceus packing stone edge.

+2 252 Atk Arceus-Ghost Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Yveltal: 430-508 (94.2 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

so ygod isn't exactly safe from ghostceus. But disregarding that, you had absolutely no substance to your post.

lolwut did you even play last gen

I'm willing to give this one, maybe I underrated Arceus-Ghost, as the SD set became better. The thing is that why would you use SD arceus-ghost over extremekiller? OK, steels cannot wall arceus-ghost anymore, but he doesn't have priority (no, extremespeed on sd arceus-ghost is weak). He uses a 252/252+ spread, unlike extremekiller which can be bulkier. Not to mention his main stab is easy to play around (unless you use shadow claw)
Of course you can always use a particular move to get past your checks, and the unpredictability of Arceus-Ghost when you don't know which sets he is running is a strong argument in his favor.

Dark/fly gives him near perfect coverage bar mons with rare types (carbink, tytar, etc) Again your post lacks any substance and is determined to be as broad as possible which isn't a good way to post a rank. As for being unable to break through walls, who the hell cares? It has taunt. GG blissey, GG chansey, GG lugiass so I don't see your point there.
Is yveltal worthy of A/S rank? Possibly but your post has no solid reasoning whatsoever.

Yveltal is a very good pokemon, able to run a lot of sets very effectively. But Yveltal doesn't have any good boosting moves.
Some commonly used pokemon easily force Yveltal out. This holds him back. Look at S-rank Kyogre and Arceus-Ghost from last gen. Only a few pokemon, namely Zekrom and Latias for the former, Darkrai for the latter, could force them out of the battle. This isn't true for Yveltal, that's why he falls short of S-rank, unless we change the ranking methods, of course.

Nothing with any real substance in this post besides ho oh is sr weak and defog isn't enough to alleviate it, which is true. The rest of your post doesn't say much though, saying checks a shit load of threats doesn't mean anything. List examples of what it can do as opposed to just saying things.

Pros:
-Checking some of the top tier threats in the current metagame thanks to his typing and bulkyness
-Isn't taunt bait because of how hard he hits back
-Great offensive stabs, perfect coverage with EQ
-Great pressure on the opponent, Ho-Oh has an easier time weakening his counters than being weakened himself, mainly due to regenerator and substitute on certain sets
-Few things can switch into Ho-Oh
-Shapes the metagame to an extent, see how everyone use rock-type attacks now
-Benefits greatly from sun, put Groudon in your team and watch his power increase
-Sacred fire
Cons:
-huge SR weakness
-slow, unless you run tailwind/flame charge, which means Ho-Oh needs to take an attack before
-rain
---->no S for me

Don't try setting up with ekiller when you're against a WoM user? He's not forced to use a lum berry at all when you're using offense. You should be able to apply enough pressure where it won't be needed and instead opt to run an item like Life orb. Giras outright lose when you're at +2 so they're a non issue. Supportceus absolutely must win the speed tie with WoM in order to beat ekiller not to mention WoM has to hit so the odds are against you.

The rest of the post is just full of garbage. Arceus has solid 120/120/120 bulk which although it won't be able to switch into moves, it can certainly come in after a KO or whatnot and get a free set up turn in which it would proceed to sweep. Ekiller is the absolute best at being a lategame cleaner so I have no idea where your "any other mon could do what ekiller does" argument comes from (unless you're talking about bellydrum linoone which has far more problems than ekiller). You're not trying to use SD on turn 1 and trying to sweep, for some reason you seem to not use it as a late game cleaner.

I'm saying that a lot of people overestimate Arceus bulk, which is very good indeed for an offensive pokemon, but acts like he's invincible or something.

On what basis can you say that? the only thing that Arceus has over most of the lategame cleaners is priority.
Lategame cleaners need their checks removed, and Arceus isn't an exception.
I don't wanna argue about Arceus-N anymore

You're not sweeping like a truck because truck's dont sweep. That's a broom, lrn2analogy. Secondly groudon isn't sweeping with its lack of priority + lack of reliable recovery + lack luster speed without an RP boost which it has a far harder time achieving than other top tier threats like xerneas and arceus. Also kyogre realistically will never fight in sun so that's a moot point. Not to mention that ho oh does not need sun at all to function, it can utilize sun but it is perfectly capable of surviving without sun support. I really don't get what your point about RP is so I'll ignore it. Groudon is a soft check to most physical threats, and in some cases it outright loses to what its supposed to check. Groudon's checks were never limited to what you listed so.............................................................................. yay for logic

Hitting like a truck, is that better? stop picking on my english
since when a sweeper need to have priority or recovery? especially when you're boosting your speed
Groudon's sun is a viable method to stop Kyogre's rampage since several generations. Obviously you aren't switching Groudon directly on Kyogre.
Defensive Groudon stayed more or less the same, but offensive Groudon just wrecks things this gen. Some of Groudon's checks got better, but Giratina-O, as well as Lati@s aren't used as much.
Groudon is a soft check to physical threats, but check nonetheless. That's why people pack two physical sweepers to get past Groudon. Groudon is played as a tank and not as a wall, if you rely on Groudon to fully stop several physical threats than you have to think about your teambuilding process.
I listed some pokes that can switch in on Groudon, they obviously aren't the only ones

Checked too easily? The only mon that reliably switches into xern without fear is aegis. Ho oh fears rock slide, ogre fears thunder, zor fears hp fire, etc. The rest of your post makes no sense at all. Geomancy is pretty meh. Xern has a variety of nifty moves and can also function as a cleric among other things. Overall nothing in here is solid reasoning on why xern should be A nor does it seem like you even know how it's used properly.

Ok, apologies for omitting the cleric set. But aside from this Arceus-fairy supports the team better.
You have a total of four moveslots. You cannot deal with all of your checks. If you choose move A, than X checks you. Choose B, and Y checks you.
Imo people are so prepared facing the geomancy set that it's hard to sweep with it. Choiced sets suffer from the same problem of any other scarfers that don't pack U-turn, as you are a sitting duck after killing something. Nothing aside his typing distinguishes Xerneas from other scarfers. The all-out attacker is great though.

Resistances to elec/water/fly/fire/steel are still solid resistances to have. No idea why you say zekrom is switching into sacred fire nor why you say groudon makes krom sad since krom can overpower groudon since it still has access to a powerful draco meteor and band outrage 2hkos anyhow, not to mention groudon lacks reliable recovery. Being able to revenge mewtwo/x/y is just saying scarfs outspeed and can possibly ko which isn't exclusive to krom so I don't see why you say it. Ho oh will not stay in on a non burned krom under any circumstances, so don't see why you bring that up. Xern will never try setting up on krom.................... so again your post lacks any substance and just brings in random irrelevant examples that don't do a good job of proving a point.

Thanks for listing me all his resistances, but Zekrom simply cannot take most of those attacks. Water attacks from specsogre are simply too powerful, and defensive kyogres use scald. Those who use flying-type attacks have another stab that Zekrom cannot take. electric moves are more often than not a coverage move, same as fire-type attacks. All this to say that it's hard bringing Zekrom in the battle.
Actually very few scarfers can OHKO a decently healthy Mewtwo/MMX/MMY if he's at +1 defense/spdefense. In fact, Zekrom needs MMX to be weakened (bolt strike max out at 58%). The other one able to do that is ScarfKyogre.

Rest I can't be assed to respond to though I suggest learning the metagame more before you try to make claims about a mons ranking since from the sound of your post, you only look at a single set or at best two and then try to make some random analysis of a mon which isn't effective in the slightest.

Indeed maybe I need more battles to be able to rank a pokemon, but I just used my general knowledge about the metagame. And the ranking I'm attributing to a pokemon is just what I feel about it, I tried to be as objective as possible. Posting other pokemon's rank later

On a side note, 'lrn2analogy', 'full of garbage' etc. I personally don't care, but please change your expression, because some may find the tone of your expression offensive. It's not only about your answer to my post, but your posts in general.


Some of us said we must change the ranking definition, and I agree with them, because I don't see how all the requirements for S-rank are fulfilled by any pokemon (unless we want to leave S-rank empty, it's fine too)

 

[MMII]

An initial vote was done to decide the fate of Kyogre, Arceus-normal, Yveltal, Xereneas, and Ho-Oh which were the pokemon with the most discussion and the most likely to have a place in S rank.

Votes

<Hugendugen> anyway I'd be tempted to put S: Kyogre, Xerneas, Ho-oh ; A+: Yveltal, Arceus
<JibaNOTHERE> S: kyogre, ho-oh A+: yveltal xerneas arc-n
<Melee_Mewtwo> S: Kyogre, Xerneas A+ yveltal, Ho-Oh (abstain on Arc-N, just not S)
<Furai> S: ogre, yveltal A+: ho-oh, arceus normal A: xerneas

Arceus-Normal - S
Kyogre - A+
Yveltal - A+
Xerneas - A+
Ho-Oh - S

• Kyogre has 4 votes for S rank so its pretty clear where he will go
• Yveltal has 4 votes for A+ so likewise easy to place
• Ho-Oh has 3 votes S and 2 for A+ so it sneaks his way into a premier position
• Arceus-Normal has 3 votes A+, one for S and one "not S" so since A+ has the majority and satisfies the demands of the 5th dick that will be it's placement
• Xerneas has 2 votes S, 2 votes A+ and one for A so it will be placed in A+ since it's the mean

Again, this list may be changed at any moment so if you want to present new arguments, they may result in a change. (at the same time don't keep harping on the same dead horse)

 

[Pancham]

This list looks perfect right now. I do have nominations, though. However, I'm not so sure if you're allowed to post whatever mons you feel like? Not sure. :$

However, before I get into nominations and what have you, I do feel as though people have a great misrepresentation of Ho-Oh, and the Ubers tier as a whole for that matter. Ho-Oh is extremely difficult to check, and even more hard to counter. The very use of Ho-Oh almost guarantees you a kill, maybe even more if your opponent doesn't have a clear way to take-down this beast. Ho-Oh is the sole reason as to why Heatran is a common pokemon in the metagame, and why Rock-Arceus is one of the most used Arceus-types. Ho-Oh is also the very reason you absolutely have to have a Stealth Rock user that has the ability to last the entire length of the battle, meaning it killed the suicide leads' purpose in the battle. (Defog is mostly the cause of this; however, you'd be a dolt to not run Defog if Ho-Oh is occupying a slot on your team, which it should be.) I honestly cannot think of one reason as to why Ho-Oh shouldn't be on any given Ubers team. It's literally that good. Ho-Oh should be the premier S-tier mon in Ubers this gen.

One thing I'd change is Xerneas in A+ when it's mostly outclassed by Fairy-Arceus, with Geomancy and Aromatherapy being the only things it can really do better. Xerneas is forced to run mxied sets, including on its Choice Scarf set, due to its lack of coverage and inability to distinguish itself from Fairy-Arceus on the special side. Geomancy is probably Xerneas' worst set, at this point. As, many people are finding that a one time set-up is not enough to warrant a slot on a team, unless you have perfect support for Xerneas. Geomancy Xerneas is also quite easy to prevent setting up, and even if it does, is still easy countered by Aegislash, who is a very potent threat in this tier. This being said, Xerneas for Mid to Low-A for me.

I'd like to nominate Aegislash for Mid-A, or Low-A at worst.. It has fantastic typing coupled with amazing bulk. Offers stellar offensive capabilities, even while being unboosted, due to its base 150 offensive stats. It counters some of the biggest threats in the tier including Xerneas, Mewtwo, some Arceus-types, including Fairy and Rock, among others. It has a pretty great movepool, having priority in Shadow Sneak, STAB Iron Head and then Rock Slide and Sacred Sword for whatever your team needs help against. Aegi is a great lure for Ho-Oh, and OHKOs it after SR. Aegislash also forms a great defensive core with Yveltal, as they cover each others checks quite perfectly.

Blaziken, imo, should be nowhere near A. It's far too easy to counter, and absolutely hates the sight of the best pokemon in the current metagame Ho-Oh. It also doesn't like other common threats including Scarf Kyogre, Giratina-A/O, and, one of my favorite anti-meta pokemon, Carbink. Blaziken should be Mid-B, as even after a speed boost, and sometimes an SD, it has trouble sweeping with these major defensive threats around.

Also nominating Arceus-Fairy for High A, a sit counters many possible Xerneas sets, is one of the, if not the, best users of Defog in the tier, as it counters popular threats in Dragon-types, Yveltal, and sometimes even Xerneas. It has a far better movepool than that of Xerneas, and can easily beat Xerneas' most notable threat, Aegislash, who people also use to counter Fairy-Arceus, with Earth Power. Though, Fairy-Arceus does not like taking its Gyro Balls or Iron Heads too much, it cans till utilize Calm Mind to a much effect due to its coverage being far superior, and having Recover.

Rock-Arceus should be somewhere in A, but I can't really place my thumb in which part. It is the best counter to Ho-Oh at this point, it can shrug off anything Ho-Oh throws at it with Recover, then Defog your enemies' hazards away while forcing Ho-Oh to switch with its Rock-type Judgment, which OHKOs. Its use isn't only for Ho-Oh, however, as it can also counter Rayquaza to an extent, Lugia, Yveltal, and other common flying-types.

My last nomination for today will probably be Mewtwo for Low-A. Mewtwo had trouble finding a team slot on many teams, and performing well in that slot, in BW, and gained nothing to help this issue in XY. Mega-Mewtwo Y is by far worse than regular Mewtwo, and even further, a waste of your Mega Stone. Mega-Mewtwo X is somewhat of an improvement, although this too is also very easy to counter, mostly due to Mewtwo's lack of a physical movepool, which only offers a few good coverage moves, including Stone Edge and Earthquake (I believe that's it?), and poor STABs in Psycho Cut / Zen Headbutt and Low Kick / Brick Break. Both of these formes, however, are easily countered by popular Arceus-types in Fairy and Ghost, as well as the new threats of Physically Defensive Yveltal and Aegislash. If we were to make a distinction between Mewtwo and Mega-Mewtwo X, I'd put Mewtwo in Low-A and Mega-Mewtwo X in Mid-A.

 

[Bossness]

An initial vote was done to decide the fate of Kyogre, Arceus-normal, Yveltal, Xereneas, and Ho-Oh which were the pokemon with the most discussion and the most likely to have a place in S rank.

Votes

<Hugendugen> anyway I'd be tempted to put S: Kyogre, Xerneas, Ho-oh ; A+: Yveltal, Arceus
<JibaNOTHERE> S: kyogre, ho-oh A+: yveltal xerneas arc-n
<Melee_Mewtwo> S: Kyogre, Xerneas A+ yveltal, Ho-Oh (abstain on Arc-N, just not S)
<Furai> S: ogre, yveltal A+: ho-oh, arceus normal A: xerneas

• Kyogre has 4 votes for S rank so its pretty clear where he will go
• Yveltal has 4 votes for A+ so likewise easy to place
• Ho-Oh has 3 votes S and 2 for A+ so it sneaks his way into a premier position
• Arceus-Normal has 3 votes A+, one for S and one "not S" so since A+ has the majority and satisfies the demands of the 5th dick that will be it's placement
• Xerneas has 2 votes S, 2 votes A+ and one for A so it will be placed in A+ since it's the mean (mode? idk you get it)

Again, this list may be changed at any moment so if you want to present new arguments, they may result in a change. (at the same time don't keep harping on the same dead horse)

Why do we need a discussion thread if the rankings given to pokemon are determined by the votes of ONLY five people? That is an extremely small sample size, which is not even representative of the entire ubers community. Why not rather take a consensus? It's as if everyone here who took his or her time to state his or her opinion don't even exist. Don't their opinions matter? Honestly, with only five people given the right to vote, this thread will have extremely biased rankings, and if that is indeed the case, there is no point in discussing anything in this thread. Lastly, what makes these five voters "qualified" for voting?

On a personal note, the fact that you, Smodrone, get to vote while I don't feels wrong. You get what I am saying? Sorry if I sounded mean; I am simply starting why I disagree with having only five. Don't hurt me.

 

[MMII]

Why do we need a discussion thread if the rankings given to pokemon are determined by the votes of ONLY five people? That is an extremely small sample size, which is not even representative of the entire ubers community. Why not rather take a consensus? It's as if everyone here who took his or her time to state his or her opinion don't even exist. Don't their opinions matter? Honestly, with only five people given the right to vote, this thread will have extremely biased rankings, and if that is indeed the case, there is no point in discussing anything in this thread. Lastly, what makes these five voters "qualified" for voting?

On a personal note, the fact that you, Smodrone, get to vote while I don't feels wrong. You get what I am saying? Sorry if I sounded mean; I am simply starting why I disagree with having only five. Don't hurt me.

These are all excellent points. The idea behind the ubers mods votes was that (as the people supposed to be trusted with modding the forum) they would read the arguments and vote in response. So basically, the arguments are there to convince the mods. (afaik, the other metagame viability threads are managed similarly by a small group or single person that makes changes in responses to the arguments) It's not perfectly fair but he viability list is never set in stone, there can always be quick corrections (unlike suspect testing). The appeal was to keep things manageable (its a lot easier to poll 5 guys than the forums) but still not leave it all on one person to decide. If you have other systems you want to suggest, I'm open to the ideas. Just keep in mind that doing a full open vote (or any subjectively large one) is really impractical for a thread like this.

Edit:
(*jibaku suggesting qc team votes earlier*)
<Hugendugen> it's not a terrible idea to expand it to the QC team
<Hugendugen> something like sending out a forum PM and saying that we'll go with whatever has the most votes in fore example 2 days

How does this sound?

 

[Disaster Area]

Well.. people are stupid.

There's a very small group of people who aren't voiced or above in the ubers room who I would trust to actually have a sensible opinion over this (have you seen most people's posts in this thread?)

Edit:

Liking what's being suggested MM2 at the bottom of that post.

 

[blitzlefan]

This list looks perfect right now. I do have nominations, though. However, I'm not so sure if you're allowed to post whatever mons you feel like? Not sure. :$

One thing I'd change is Xerneas in A+ when it's mostly outclassed by Fairy-Arceus, with Geomancy and Aromatherapy being the only things it can really do better. Xerneas is forced to run mxied sets, including on its Choice Scarf set, due to its lack of coverage and inability to distinguish itself from Fairy-Arceus on the special side. Geomancy is probably Xerneas' worst set, at this point. As, many people are finding that a one time set-up is not enough to warrant a slot on a team, unless you have perfect support for Xerneas. Geomancy Xerneas is also quite easy to prevent setting up, and even if it does, is still easy countered by Aegislash, who is a very potent threat in this tier. This being said, Xerneas for Mid to Low-A for me.

I'd like to nominate Aegislash for Mid-A, or Low-A at worst.. It has fantastic typing coupled with amazing bulk. Offers stellar offensive capabilities, even while being unboosted, due to its base 150 offensive stats. It counters some of the biggest threats in the tier including Xerneas, some Arceus-formes, among others. It has a pretty great movepool, having priority in Shadow Sneak, STAB Iron Head and then Rock Slide and Sacred Sword for whatever your team needs help against. Aegi is a great lure for Ho-Oh, and OHKOs it after SR. Aegislash also forms a great defensive core with Yveltal, as they cover each others checks quite perfectly.

Blaziken, imo, should be nowhere near A. It's far too easy to counter, and absolutely hates the sight of the best pokemon in the current metagame Ho-Oh. It also doesn't like other common threats including Scarf Kyogre, Giratina-A/O, and, one of my favorite anti-meta pokemon, Carbink. Blaziken should be Mid-B, as even after a speed boost, and even SD, it has trouble sweeping with these major defensive threats around.

Also nominating Arceus-Fairy for A+, a sit counters many possible Xerneas sets, is one of the, if not the, best users of Defog in the tier, as it counters popular threats in Dragon-types, Yveltal, and sometimes even Xerneas. It has a far better movepool than that of Xerneas, and can easily beat Xerneas' most notable threat, Aegislash, who people also use to counter Fairy-Arceus, with Earth Power. Though, Fairy-Arceus does not like taking its Gyro Balls or Iron Heads too much, it cans till utilize Calm Mind to a much effect due to its coverage being far superior, and having Recover.

Rock-Arceus should be somewhere in A, but I can't really place my thumb in which part. It is the best counter to Ho-Oh at this point, it can shrug off anything Ho-Oh throws at it with Recover, then Defog your enemies' hazards away while forcing Ho-Oh to switch with its Rock-type Judgment, which OHKOs. Its use isn't only for Ho-Oh, however, as it can also counter Rayquaza to an extent, Lugia, Yveltal, and other common flying-types.

Uhhhhh... I'd like to (politely) disagree with a couple of the points you make. Geomancy is not Xerneas' worst set in my opinion - it's strong and centralizing to the point that the set's checks have become more prominent, which is why it seems bad. Although it does need to be reserved until late-game to sweep, until it's counters are gone (not unlike other top-tier sweepers like Arceus-Normal), Aegislash isn't too hard to wear down since it lacks recovery, and I'd like to argue further that Aegislash loses a lot of momentum. Xerneas is able to distinguish itself from Arceus-Fairy simply through the pressure placed on the opponent to avoid using Dragon-type moves, especially from choice-locked Dragons such as Choice Specs Kyurem-W, since one free turn is all it needs (boosting much faster than Arceus-Fairy), and after boosting cannot be revenge killed outside of priority (generally Bullet Punch from Scizor or Lucario). It also offers Aromatherapy support, a stronger Fairy-STAB move (through greater Special Attack, ability to go Modest, and Fairy Aura) can smash Chansey with Close Combat, lure Ho-Oh with Rock Slide, etc. That's why I think that Xerneas in A+ is appropriate.

I personally think that Aegislash should be ranked much lower than A, probably around B or B+. It just doesn't hit that hard - base 150 is decent , but in order to check Xerneas and other attackers to its full potential, Aegislash can't run a boosting item and often doesn't run max Attack (for example, with a Sassy nature iirc). As mentioned earlier, I think it loses a lot of momentum, has common weaknesses to Ground, Dark, and Fire (Groudon, Yveltal, and Ho-Oh), and utilizes moves with a mediocre base power outside of a full powered Gyro Ball (Shadow Ball, Sacred Sword, etc.).

Can I just ask what exactly counters Mega Blaziken? Even Ho-Oh gets KO'd after Stealth Rock by a +2 Low Kick, and if unboosted, can just Baton Pass its Speed boosts to another attacker that can beat Ho-Oh. Scarf Kyogre doesn't count as a counter, as it can't switch in on Low Kick (it gets 2HKO'd) and is outsped after a turn and possibly OHKO'd if at +2. Giratina and Giratina-O are both hit hard by Knock Off (though sadly it doesn't get the boost), and both are fairly bad in the current metagame, and can't KO in return unless they run Earthquake. Mega Blaziken is actually one of the most threatening Pokemon right now in my opinion, I'd venture to state that it has no counters and deserves much better than B.

I haven't used Arceus-Fairy much, but if you're talking about a Calm Mind set, then Calm Mind / Judgment / Earth Power / Recover is walled by Ho-Oh, though with enough boosts can probably overcome it, and the movepool argument isn't that effective seeing as Arceus-Fairy only has room for one coverage move on a Calm Mind set, while Xerneas has room for two on a Geomancy set. I'm not too sure where this belong though.

 

[Haruno]

These are all excellent points. The idea behind the ubers mods votes was that (as the people supposed to be trusted with modding the forum) they would read the arguments and vote in response. So basically, the arguments are there to convince the mods. (afaik, the other metagame viability threads are managed similarly by a small group or single person that makes changes in responses to the arguments) It's not perfectly fair but he viability list is never set in stone, there can always be quick corrections (unlike suspect testing). The appeal was to keep things manageable (its a lot easier to poll 5 guys than the forums) but still not leave it all on one person to decide. If you have other systems you want to suggest, I'm open to the ideas. Just keep in mind that doing a full open vote (or any subjectively large one) is really impractical for a thread like this.

Edit:
(*jibaku suggesting qc team votes earlier*)
<Hugendugen> it's not a terrible idea to expand it to the QC team
<Hugendugen> something like sending out a forum PM and saying that we'll go with whatever has the most votes in fore example 2 days

How does this sound?

Wasn't that very reasoning why the "wiser" members of ou were laughing their asses off when people went through 70 pages of butthurt about mega kanga's ban when they already knew the ou council was going to straight out ignore the topic and just ban it anyways? .-. doesn't seem that effective to use the same failed logic that the ou is a clusterfuck for. It'd at least help if we had solid reasoning from the ubers council (which you didn't even acquire all votes from .-.) on said placement on a mon.

Can I just ask what exactly counters Mega Blaziken? Even Ho-Oh gets KO'd after Stealth Rock by a +2 Low Kick, and if unboosted, can just Baton Pass its Speed boosts to another attacker that can beat Ho-Oh. Scarf Kyogre doesn't count as a counter, as it can't switch in on Low Kick (it gets 2HKO'd) and is outsped after a turn and possibly OHKO'd if at +2. Giratina and Giratina-O are both hit hard by Knock Off (though sadly it doesn't get the boost), and both are fairly bad in the current metagame, and can't KO in return unless they run Earthquake. Mega Blaziken is actually one of the most threatening Pokemon right now in my opinion, I'd venture to state that it has no counters and deserves much better than B.

Mother fucking talonflame/azumarill. You're welcome.

 

[MMII]

Wasn't that very reasoning why the "wiser" members of ou were laughing their asses off when people went through 70 pages of butthurt about mega kanga's ban when they already knew the ou council was going to straight out ignore the topic and just ban it anyways? .-. doesn't seem that effective to use the same failed logic that the ou is a clusterfuck for. It'd at least help if we had solid reasoning from the ubers council (which you didn't even acquire all votes from .-.) on said placement on a mon.


Mother fucking talonflame/azumarill. You're welcome.

It's not the ubers council, its just the ubers mods cept tmon (which you can find the full list of 5 int he rules thread :p). Ubers councils vote would be pointlesss cause half of it is inactive and this is just a viability thread. Also, the mods did read the posts. Again, we can expand from the guys who watch the forums (mods) to a bigger pool of the guys trusted to handle our analyses (qc team), would that work? Also, I can post logs of the discussion (I think i can still find it all) I just didn't bother cause it was already discussed int he thread and this was just deciding the results of that discussion.

Seriously, though, I'm open to any suggestions. (as long as it's not over the top to execute, it IS just a viability list :p)

 

[Krauersaut]

S Rank
The titans of the game. They bear massive offensive and defensive capabilities. Pokemon in this tier are extremely diverse, capable of fulfilling multiple roles on both defensive and offensive ends. There is virtually zero opportunity cost in using these Pokemon. They require no support from the team and have immense utility to offer.

• 
  (Ho-Oh)
• 
  (Kyogre)

*coughs gently*

They require no support from the team.

(Ho-Oh)

*facepalm*

EDIT: My bad, the same thing that I've been getting at has been said several times. Sorry, I'm kind of new to Smogon, haven't been following all the threads :P
If I was to say where Ho-Oh should be, I would put him/her/it around mid-a to high-a, because Ho-Oh absolutely requires a Giratina or Arceus variant to defog for it to have a chance in doing what it does best, whatever that so may be in your opinion. It does sport extreme versatility, but without the proper setup and the right team, it's just a flaming turkey.

 

[Jimmyftw]

An initial vote was done to decide the fate of Kyogre, Arceus-normal, Yveltal, Xereneas, and Ho-Oh which were the pokemon with the most discussion and the most likely to have a place in S rank.

Votes

<Hugendugen> anyway I'd be tempted to put S: Kyogre, Xerneas, Ho-oh ; A+: Yveltal, Arceus
<JibaNOTHERE> S: kyogre, ho-oh A+: yveltal xerneas arc-n
<Melee_Mewtwo> S: Kyogre, Xerneas A+ yveltal, Ho-Oh (abstain on Arc-N, just not S)
<Furai> S: ogre, yveltal A+: ho-oh, arceus normal A: xerneas

• Kyogre has 4 votes for S rank so its pretty clear where he will go
• Yveltal has 4 votes for A+ so likewise easy to place
• Ho-Oh has 3 votes S and 2 for A+ so it sneaks his way into a premier position
• Arceus-Normal has 3 votes A+, one for S and one "not S" so since A+ has the majority and satisfies the demands of the 5th dick that will be it's placement
• Xerneas has 2 votes S, 2 votes A+ and one for A so it will be placed in A+ since it's the mean

Again, this list may be changed at any moment so if you want to present new arguments, they may result in a change. (at the same time don't keep harping on the same dead horse)

I don't believe (this is my opinion, so don't take offense lol) that the Uber moderators give enough consideration to the argument presented in this thread and is more bias toward their own opinions. One notable evidence supporting this claim is that experienced players who posted in this thread such as Kebabe, Hack He Must, and Fireburn all agree that Arceus-Normal should be S-Rank whereas the Uber moderators listed it as A+. What I am also concern about is the fact that the Uber moderators did not provide reasonings for their decisions and a small sample size of five people is used in making a viability list.

 

[shrang]

*coughs gently*

They require no support from the team.

(Ho-Oh)
*facepalm*

EDIT: My bad, the same thing that I've been getting at has been said several times. Sorry, I'm kind of new to Smogon, haven't been following all the threads :P
If I was to say where Ho-Oh should be, I would put him/her/it around mid-a to high-a, because Ho-Oh absolutely requires a Giratina or Arceus variant to defog for it to have a chance in doing what it does best, whatever that so may be in your opinion. It does sport extreme versatility, but without the proper setup and the right team, it's just a flaming turkey.

lol that used to say "Little to no support from the team"

 

[Donkey]

*coughs gently*

They require no support from the team.

(Ho-Oh)
*facepalm*

EDIT: My bad, the same thing that I've been getting at has been said several times. Sorry, I'm kind of new to Smogon, haven't been following all the threads :P
If I was to say where Ho-Oh should be, I would put him/her/it around mid-a to high-a, because Ho-Oh absolutely requires a Giratina or Arceus variant to defog for it to have a chance in doing what it does best, whatever that so may be in your opinion. It does sport extreme versatility, but without the proper setup and the right team, it's just a flaming turkey.

remove that edit bro

ur rite

 

[effyouzion]

I don't believe (this is my opinion, so don't take offense lol) that the Uber moderators give enough consideration to the argument presented in this thread and is more bias toward their own opinions. One notable evidence supporting this claim is that experienced players who posted in this thread such as Kebabe, Hack He Must, and Fireburn all agree that Arceus-Normal should be S-Rank whereas the Uber moderators listed it as A+. What I am also concern about is the fact that the Uber moderators did not provide reasonings for their decisions and a small sample size of five people is used in making a viability list.

Agree with this. I feel like there's no point in a discussion thread if that's how it's gonna be handled. Then again, why should I care? If people think Arceus isn't s-rank, I might as well let them. Makes it easier for me.

 

[Magcargo]

I don't really see how Arceus-N is S-Rank. I won't deny that its threatening, but from my experience, its definitely not as threatening as Ho-oh and Kyogre. Taking a look at both Ho-oh and Kyogre, you can see that both are capable of fulfilling multiple roles, both offensively and defensive, have excellent typings, and have powerful STAB attacks that do not require set up to be threatening. Arceus-N does not have this advantage. It only has one really good set (Wallceus isn't great compared to other Arceus forms) and requires setup to actually be threatening. A Base 80 Power STAB attack coming off of base 120 Base attack without a boosting item is fairly underwhelming by Ubers standards and gives Arceus-N limited utility early game. Its coverage moves aren't exactly very threatening either without a boost. One of Arceus's biggest flaws is that it is extremely predictable. From my experience facing Arceus-N, I knew exactly what moves, item, and set it was using due to the fact that it is so one dimensional and thus, I knew exactly how to counter it. These are flaws that no other Pokemon in S-Rank in any other viability ranking threads have, which leads me to believe Arceus-N is a solid A+ Pokemon in the metagame.

 

[Disaster Area]

Back to MM2's point over the initial decisions, I think expanding to the QC team (and asking them to provide a couple of lines of reasoning, or more if they want to, as to why they wish to place it there) and yeah give them a fixed amount of time like 2 days for all responses to be made.

That sounds like we'd achieve a larger more meaningful sample size from still reliably high quality players, without being too big to be inefficient or emcompass people who don't know what they're talking about properly, but big enough for people to feel that a fair number of people are getting involved in the process.

 

[MMII]

Okay, so I'm going to sidetrack this thread temporarily to address this voting issue. (which was put in the OPs since the beginning of the thread and I don't hear any complaints until after the results but ignoring that...) You have 3 days (or shorter if there is a landslide) to suggest a new system or support one already suggested. (ie not keep harping on it and the results when anik already amply covered the issues) I'm not going to do an open vote so find something else that makes sense and isn't overly complex. So far we have:

Sticking with the mods (this is a thread in the ubers forums which they mod)

or

<Hugendugen> it's not a terrible idea to expand it to the QC team
<Hugendugen> something like sending out a forum PM and saying that we'll go with whatever has the most votes in fore example 2 days
(trusted with the analyses, should be competent enough to read arguments)

or

<faint> i literally think having each mod pick 1 person
<faint> that they trust
<faint> for a total of 10
<faint> is the best way to do it
(same idea as the first just bigger)

 

[Disaster Area]

Imo Hugendugen's suggestion>faint's suggestion>current system.

That's my opinion.

 

[orch]

I don't really have issue with uber mods deciding mons, BUT they should provide their reasoning. I'd like them to explain how they think that a given pokemon fits in the given tier best. That would allow us to debate and determine the best position afterwards, rather than being given no place to start with. However, I do see other people's concern about uber mods' competency, especially with Ho-Oh's S ranking. +1 piex's ordering.

 

[ZoroDark]

Honestly I'm with Krauersaut/Donkey on this one. You can't simply put Ho-Oh in a tier with one of the requirements being "needs no support from other mons". Either change it back to "needs little to no support", or move Ho-Oh down to A+.

Rapid Spin, but mainly Defog is "little support" in my book, considering Arceus learns it and there's always some kind of Arceus that fits well into your team. Ho-Oh always has pretty great synergy with Giratina-O who is an excellent defogger too. So I'd go with the former option.

 

[MMII]

Changed it to "They barely require support, if any, from the team and have immense utility to offer." because it was lost in translation.