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Gen 6 The XY Ubers Viability Ranking Thread [Read Post #1000]

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Melee Mewtwo said:
Changed it to "They barely require support, if any, from the team and have immense utility to offer." because it was lost in translation.
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This justifies Ho-Oh being S-rank now, as in my opinion Defog really isn't all that much support, and the utility it provides / power it holds makes up for the small amount of support it needs.

Regarding the voting system, I'm down with basically any system as long as the people that make the final tiering placements give some sort of reasoning for their decisions. Also, I think that the more people that vote the better, so faint's suggestion is my favorite.
 
Isn't QC team + mods > 10 people?

Anyway yeah any is really fine so long as they give their reasoning, but I feel the ordering I gave represents my opinion and anyone else who wishes to agree with it with respect to preferred way of voting for rankings. I don't mind people such as myself not being involved in the ranking anyway.. much as I'd love to contribute, I'm not a good enough player to really give an accurate ranking (well I might be good enough but for now there's no way I could justify it so just ignore that).. nor are most other people who aren't in the QC team/are a mod. (People are stupid, so let's choose the rare few who have shown that they know what they're talking about)
 
Just to be clear, having known most of these guys for the better part of 5 years I have immense respect for the mods in the Ubers subforum and believe that they have excellent general knowledge about the Uber tier.

HOWEVER, half of the current Ubers mods have played little to no XY Ubers, and I think that the current QC team brings a lot of relevant experience to the table, and it also allows those mods that haven't played much XY Ubers to abstain rather than feel the need to vote on a metagame in which they have very little experience.

Also, I will say again that I believe Defog support is a greater opportunity cost than it appears to be. Arceus forms are generally the most reliable of Defoggers (although others are viable), and if we are going to hold being an Arceus form against Arceus-N it seems only fair that we consider the requirement of running a support Arceus form to be an equal if not greater opportunity cost. Furthermore, it can be relatively simple to put immense pressure on Defoggers, as they will often need to choose between Recovering and Defogging and an opposing Kyogre or Ho oh (among others) are often enough to prevent them from effectively getting enough free turns, which eventually weakens the Defogger or prevents it from doing its job. Defoggers can also be wrecked pretty easily by status or Mega-Gengar and other Taunters. People are generally prepared for defog and will try to make it as difficult as possible.
 
I nominate Xerneas for S rank. While we've learned to play around it and it's not the game breaker it was at the very start, Xerneas is still an overwhelming threat that will sweep entire teams in one turn. The Geomancy boost alone should bump up Xerneas.

Edit: I bump Kyogre down to high A rank. It doesn't provide the full rain team support that it once did and with assault vest it becomes easier to live Kyogre's hits.
 
I nominate Aegislash for A rank. It's one of the most reliable(probably the best) counter to Xerneas. Unlike other walls, it can actually do nice damage off its 150 base SpA and Atk( remember kyogre's SpA?). However it stills has issues with Ho-oh and other fire types.
 
Well aegilash this metagame..

It is good at countering xerneas (only beaten by the rare HP Fire Xerneas and even then not consistently by any means) and can then run other moves to deal with threats like mewtwo and fairyceus, as well as spreading toxic. It has clear weaknesses but it does its role very well and it does merit a high ranking, but I'm unsure whether A rank is really where it belongs.
 
Nominating Heatran for B+ rank. It's nice to have a Ho-oh check around when Ho-oh is running rampant. Also, with the new introduction of Fairy Types and Heatran 4x resisting them, it's a great counter to Arceus Fairy and Xerneas w/o focus blast. Also Aegislash is countered by Heatran which is nice if you have a Xerneas walled by Aegi. However, it longs for reliable recovery, and the old classic stallbreaker isn't that good this gen due to stall usage dropping because of defog and giant threats like Xerneas entering the scene. It also has trouble with Kyogre and other water types, as well as almost everything with a ground attack. However, Taunt and Toxic still work wonders in this gen, spreading toxic to Arceus forms, Xerneas, and more. Roar helps against set up sweepers, and as long as you get the water types out of the way, Heatran will be a solid member of your team.
 
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I would just like to say to that that heatran is a great pokemon on paper.. but pretty much godawful in practice, in my opinion.
 
<BlueJay> Since QC is now involved in ranking stuff, for the 5 S rank candidates, I vote A+ for Ho-Oh, Ygod and Ekiller
<BlueJay> Abstain for Ogre and Xerneas (still kinda disinclined to put stuff in S but I feel they're the best candidates)

Fireburn: my votes are S - Arc-Norm/Ho-Oh/Kyogre and A+ Xern/Yveltal

<Hugendugen> anyway I'd be tempted to put S: Kyogre, Xerneas, Ho-oh ; A+: Yveltal, Arceus

<Melee_Mewtwo> S: Kyogre, Xerneas A+ yveltal, Ho-Oh (abstain on Arc-N, just not S)

<Sweep> ho-oh A+, Arceus Normal A, Kyogre A+, Yveltal A+, Xerneas A

<Furai> S: ogre, yveltal A+: ho-oh, arceus normal, xerneas

shrang said:
Kyogre: S
Arc N: High A
Xerneas: Mid to High A
Ho-oh: High A to S
Yveltal: S
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Donkey said:
kyogre: s
arc norm: a
xerneas: a
ho-oh: a
yveltal: a
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trickroom said:
Kyogre: S, still strong and lack of permanent rain doesn't affect most variants, and the defensive set even likes the lack of 100% accurate Thunders. Specs still 2HKOes almost everything, we don't even have the lati twins now, and Palkia using Assault Vest shows how defining Kyogre is.

Arceus N: A. Arceus-N lacks initial power, doesn't give team support in terms of synergy but still a great sweeper. Stopped easily by burns and some checks, but it's combination of bulk and STAB ExtremeSpeed does make it unique.

Xerneas: A. Strong, versatile, and Fairy Aura is gay, but then Geomancy is a one-time use. The other sets are awesome, I like RestTalk Xerneas. The thing is Xerneas isn't as immediately threatening as Kyogre or Ho-Oh. I will place it at high A.

Ho-Oh: A, SR weakness is huge. Not good enough for S, one of the biggest threats, but still requires support. Defog is common now, people will expect for it, there are ways to harass the opponent, and pressure them. Defog doesn't work 100% of the time.

Yveltal: A. Strong Sucker, beast bird from hell. Gay Dark Pulse Flinch and the surprising power from the offensive sets, easy A but I won't give it S rank because it's weak to SR, and many common moves: Thunder, Ice Beam, Moonblast and Stone Edge.

You can ignore my post cause I just played a little bit of XY Ubers. I actually think Mega Blaziken is more threatening than Ho-Oh, it doesn't even need support as it's neutral to SR, and just one free turn, and mr.Chicken will KO almost anything. What are the things which can stop chicken? Talonflame? Azumaril? You will use Ho-Oh > Talonflame, Azumaril I am not sure, but it's so slow and isn't that bulky. Giratina forms are rare now, and a +2 Knock Off still does considerable damage.

Mega Chicken does take up a mega slot though so that sucks. No S for chicken. Outrunning Scarf Yveltal at just +1, that is boss. Voting Groudon for A rank, somewhere mid A, I don't think Groudon deserves to be so low as B, it can still run so many sets and supports Ho-OH.
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Hack He Must said:
Arceus-N: S
Kyogre: S
Yveltal: A+
Ho-oh: A+
Xerneas: A+

All are excellent mons, changed my mind about Kyogre- losing two big checks in Latis makes restricts teambuilding further. Scarf is one the best scarfer, Specs is probably the best wallbreaker, sdef is still very useful. Can't we just put up Gengar at A+ while we're at it? I don't think anyone disagrees.

Also I agree with TR about Blaze in a way, but that's for up another time I guess.
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  • Kyogre - 8 S, 1 A+, and an abstain. Kyogre remains S rank
  • Xerneas - 2 S, 3 A+, 3 A, 1 in between A and A+, and one abstain means that Xerneas will not be placed until further discussion leads to a stronger agreement.
  • Yveltal - 2 S, 6 A+, and 2 A means that Yveltal will remain in high A rank.
  • Arceus-Normal - 2 S, 4 A+, 3 A, and one anti-S. There's a general consensus that Arceus-N should not be placed in S with there being an hesitation between high A rank and mid A rank. For the sake of simplicity (and the fact his list isn't permanent) I'm going to keep it in high A rank seeing as it has the majority. (pleases 5/10 of those who voted)
  • Ho-Oh - 2 S, 5 A+, 2 A, and one in between high A and S means that Ho-Oh will be moved to high A rank.

~Keep the discussion going~
 
Ok now we have the deer somewhere between A and A+.

S Rank
They bear massive offensive and defensive capabilities. Pokemon in this tier are extremely diverse, capable of fulfilling multiple roles on both defensive and offensive ends. There is virtually zero opportunity cost in using these Pokemon. They barely require support, if any, from the team and have immense utility to offer.

A Rank
Reserved for Pokemon with impressive offensive or defensive capability. These Pokemon are typically the first to be considered to fulfill certain roles and have very little opportunity cost. They require little support to function and may have significant utility.


Massive or impressive offence and defence?
131/131/99 aren't massive but with Geomancy / Calm mind plus Fairy aura his STAB Moonblast is something to be prepared to take.
126/95/98 are a good overall bulk, he lacks a recovery move (unboosted unstabbed horn leech is just weak) but with Aromatherapy you can use him like a cleric.
I'd say impressive just cause of Geomancy (+2/+2/+2 is simply wrong).

Multiple or certain role?
- Geomancy sweeper
- Defensive (rest-talk) cleric
- Mixed attacker (scarfed)
3 completly different roles for me is multiple.

Virtually zero or very little opportunity cost?
It really can fit in any team, you don't have to worry about being outclassed by anything, closest mon to him is Fairy Arceus that usually do other stuff (CM sweeper, support).
So zero opportunity cost.

Barely or little support needed?
Aegislash, Scizor, Ho-oh, Lugia are checks at least so you need to get rid of them or you have to switch out Xerneas.
He won't enjoy any hazard since a weakened deer dies to priority.
He does require a little (and maybe something more than a little) support to work.

Immense or significant utility?
Now we're picking again on Xerneas' sets:
Geomancy, once its checks and counters are gone, will end the game on its own.
Aromatherapy is one of the best teamsupporting move to have this gen, now that t-wave, toxic and wow are everywhere.
Just those two worth the immense.

4/5 S-Rank.

I've said at page 2 that for me Xerneas worth A-Rank, just cause there are some (common) mons that can completly stops him.
But now that I looked into every single ranking aspects I can see that he deserve S-Ranking.
 
Melee Mewtwo Although it may be too late for this, I was wondering whether both the ubers moderators and QC team could form their own "personal" viability list and send it to you in a PM. From there, you can decide what the best place to put a Pokemon is. It seems as if this would save a large amount of time and effort from the uber staff and community.
 
Magcargo 2 said:
Melee Mewtwo Although it may be too late for this, I was wondering whether both the ubers moderators and QC team could form their own "personal" viability list and send it to you in a PM. From there, you can decide what the best place to put a Pokemon is. It seems as if this would save a large amount of time and effort from the uber staff and community.
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Can we not let Melee Mewtwo have the final say in a mon's placing? Thank you.
 
It does take more time and effort to build the list from scratch but it ends up giving us a list that more closely reflects the general viewpoint on viability and encourages participation in something they pt together themselves. Sure we could just use the mods to start off with a placeholder list but then suggested changes are arguing against the status quo which is harder to justify.
 
It seems better to actually have a rough skeleton of a viability list starting with the actual ubers and then moving down the tiers. Also effffffs around 170 posts and 2 weeks worth of bitching and we still only have four mons placed
 
Haruno said:
It seems better to actually have a rough skeleton of a viability list starting with the actual ubers and then moving down the tiers. Also effffffs around 170 posts and 2 weeks worth of bitching and we still only have four mons placed
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Agreeing with this. There's really no point of debating and creating a solid placement now for every Pokemon and sticking with it, seeing as the metagame will change (and a fluid process here would reflect that). We should just get a skeleton based on mods/qc members/etc. and move things from there.
 
These aren't solid placements, discussion was caught up over the S rank mons which has mostly been settled so it should speed up but if it doesn't I can switch to a placeholder thing. (maybe have people post there own initial list and go for some kind of merge)
 
The only way we'll get a guaranteed placement without going through pages worth of shit is to have a unanimous agreement but considering what's happened so far, that isn't likely. So it seems better if you post an initial skeleton for the viability rankings and let us bash it from there
 
I think people need to avoid having their personal attachment to certain Pokemon affect their decision to place said Pokemon in certain tier.

Nominating Palkia for A-rank.

Reserved for Pokemon with impressive offensive or defensive capability. These Pokemon are typically the first to be considered to fulfill certain roles and have very little opportunity cost. They require little support to function and may have significant utility.

Although the reduced utility of the Choice Scarf set hurts Palkia as it is no longer the premier revenge killer as it was last generation, Palkia has gained a new niche as the best Assault Vest user in the tier this generation. With Latias missing its Soul Dew and Ferrethorn falling off in usage, Palkia is oftentimes the first choice for a Kyogre counter. This satisfy the condition "These Pokemon are typically the first to be considered to fulfill certain roles and have very little opportunity cost."

Moreover, Palkia is an extremely difficult Pokemon to switch into as with the correct move, it can 2HKO the majority of the Uber tier save for the pink blobs. Palkia also requires virtually no support at all and faces little to no opportunity cost. Palkia's speed stat sits at a very good base 100, outspeeding the many base 90's and 95's as well as the two new base 99's, Yveltal and Xerneas. Palkia is also quite diverse, being able to run Assault Vest, Lustrous Orb, Rest, Spec, Scarf and Mixed set all effectively.

Although, the lack of permanent weather may be detriment to Palkia, Palkia is also somewhat helped by this change. Permanent rain in generation 5 meant that Palkia was hard press to get pass some Pokemon such as Arceus-Grass and Jirachi. With rain not being permanent anymore, Palkia can pressure the aforementioned Pokemon more effectively.
 
Haruno said:
The only way we'll get a guaranteed placement without going through pages worth of shit is to have a unanimous agreement but considering what's happened so far, that isn't likely. So it seems better if you post an initial skeleton for the viability rankings and let us bash it from there
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I agree with this. Melee or someone should make an initial placement first. We really need an initial list because yhe earlier we have a list, the more beginners can understand the metagame. Sure, everyone will have their opinion of different things, but among competitive players, there shouldn't be too much of a difference. I mean, some may argue Zekrom for A, another one for maybe B+, but no competitive players will argue it for C. The initial list may not be ideal, but that is why we have to discuss about it.
 
While we're waiting for the QC team i'll nominate Arceus-Electric for high B rank. One of the better arceus forms right now, Electro man retains its ability as an offensive check to Kyogre while also checking Ho-oh and Zekrom, two of the more potent physical threats in the gen VI meta. Groudon's (slightly) decreased effectiveness is also a nice boost for arceus-electric, as it has a little less chance of having to eat multiple earthquakes now. Ice beam is a great move to punish mons such as Landorus-t, which has been gaining in usage somewhat due to intimidate. It can also check Yveltal if you want to make it more specially bulky; bolt-beam coverage is still nice. It suffers from 4mss and of course, opportunity cost, which is probably the biggest factor keeping it from A rank. All in all a solid B pokemon.
 
ChrisTehAwesome said:
While we're waiting for the QC team i'll nominate Arceus-Electric for high B rank. One of the better arceus forms right now, Electro man retains its ability as an offensive check to Kyogre while also checking Ho-oh and Zekrom, two of the more potent physical threats in the gen VI meta. Groudon's (slightly) decreased effectiveness is also a nice boost for arceus-electric, as it has a little less chance of having to eat multiple earthquakes now. Ice beam is a great move to punish mons such as Landorus-t, which has been gaining in usage somewhat due to intimidate. It can also check Yveltal if you want to make it more specially bulky; bolt-beam coverage is still nice. It suffers from 4mss and of course, opportunity cost, which is probably the biggest factor keeping it from A rank. All in all a solid B pokemon.
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I don't really see how it suffers from 4mss. Calm Mind, Judgment, Ice Beam, and Recover are all it really needs. Also, it's immune to paralysis this gen, meaning it's easier to use. I'm nominating Him to A/A-.
 
Cobalt314 said:
I don't really see how it suffers from 4mss. Calm Mind, Judgment, Ice Beam, and Recover are all it really needs. Also, it's immune to paralysis this gen, meaning it's easier to use. I'm nominating Him to A/A-.
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I only meant in terms of moves common on support arceus, such as will-o-wisp or defog. It needs both attacks + cm to reliably check kyogre or ho-oh wIthout being set up bait
 
ChrisTehAwesome said:
I only meant in terms of moves common on support arceus, such as will-o-wisp or defog. It needs both attacks + cm to reliably check kyogre or ho-oh wIthout being set up bait
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But Electceus isn't really a reliable support Arceus type. Its main selling point is its Calm Mind set, which it runs with tremendous effect. The support Arceus role should go to another type, such as Grass or Rock.

However, I may not be accurately interpreting your comment. If I'm not, please forgive me and let me know.
 
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