Gen 6 The XY Ubers Viability Ranking Thread [Read Post #1000]

[NightJackal]

You completely missed the point of my post...that's like saying Ebelt Aromatherapy Xerneas is like Sylveon. Will-o-Wisp is used to lure Aegislash, a common switch-in to Gardevoir-Mega. What Mega-Gardevoir runs is [move]+3 Attacks, similar to Aromatherapy+3 Attacks Xerneas. Mega-Gengar may do that better, but does Mega-Gengar have that suprise factor, Fairy STAB, or the same unique typing as Mega-Gardevoir? One common move in two completely different Pokemon's movepool's outclassed does not make. You completely dismiss Xerneas's perfectly other viable sets and also severely underrate the value of Taunt. Taunt is a great disruptor move, from preventing SR to allowing a status-weak teammate to switch in for free. I don't think you understand what Clefable does...all you are doing is repeating that they deserve C-Rank with no real reasoning.

No shit it's the Ubers tier. Don't forget you dont have to use bog-standard Pokemon. It's clear you don't grasp how to use Mega-Gardevoir / Clefable. If you don't use them for their specific niches, they won't preform well.

Mega Gardevoir's unique typing is actually a problem as well with Destiny Bond.
What I said was a comparison between offensive sets... Obviously, Xerneas has more sets, but these sets are irrelevant. Do you want me to expand on Xerneas' ather sets? Chances are that you're gonna say "They perform a different role." So why refer to them? Plus, that is on more reason to say Gardevoir is outclassed. You said that among Gardevoir's niches is the surprise factor. Well, in that case, same goes for Xerneas. Geomancy might be super common, but it also has other tricks up its sleeve. Also, read through all of my post. Yeah, I don't use Gardy or Clefable, but I have faced them. I can't say much on the subject apart from what I've seen. And what I've seen makes me think that C-Rank is just fine for these two.
Look, I don't wanna pick a fight with you... In the long run, we won't agree. I'll just say Mega Gardevoir for C-Rank and be done with it.

 

[MMII]

Guys, I didn't mention Gardy in my last post but I'm grouping it with Drapion on the whole pass it through QC first.

Agrron is already planned for a drop but just hasn't yet cause, yeah, got a lot on the backburner that I'll catch up on.
Genesect is one of the better Scarf mons in this meta and still quite good. (not a zekrom or Kyogre but still)
Skarm still has a nice typing and spikes plus moves like Taunt, etc. (and if any spiker can get away with running Shed Shell it's him)

 

[Haruno]

Agrron is already planned for a drop but just hasn't yet cause, yeah, got a lot on the backburner that I'll catch up on.
Genesect is one of the better Scarf mons in this meta and still quite good. (not a zekrom or Kyogre but still)
Skarm still has a nice typing and spikes plus moves like Taunt, etc. (and if any spiker can get away with running Shed Shell it's him)

Eh aggron made no sense to me in the first place so I won't comment.

Gene took a major hit this generation thanks to losing resistances but ontop of that it lost targets as well since lati@s, dd ray, classictwo, and darkrai all has taken a hit (okay maybe not darkrai so much). The introduction of xerneas and yveltal doesn't help it's case either since the former often carries hp fire which deters gene from switching in and to make matters worse it also carries a boosting move that lets it outspeed gene and ohko easily. The later gives zero fucks about anything gene can do to it (unless it gets a freeze/para) and then proceed to get its life back via oblivion wing. I really don't believe the scarf set is really that viable this gen thanks to losing a lot of targets that were dominant last gen and we shouldn't give a rate based on how something placed in a previous gen. If there is a reason for gene's A- I believe it would be for its band set which orch had some success with but I'm sadly unable to comment on it.

I always felt like you liked/overrTed skarm but I really haven't seen it used or used it myself to actually comment. Though I don't really consider taunt a boon since all it really hits is ferro and opposing skarm, both of which are far less common this gen. Not to mention that thanks to the overcentralization of xerneas and yveltal along with other threats like blaze/sd groundceus, skarm has lost a significant amount of the things it checked last gen. Feel free to say otherwise though. I'd propose a drop from B+ to whatever ferros rank is and drop that by one.

 

[Blue Jay]

I do feel Genesect is too highly placed (as I always have, it's just so weak in this bulkier metagame, lost some resistances which are its only way to switch in and U-turn has far fewer targets), and I'm really not sure about Skarmory, I could also see that being placed slightly lower.

 

[orch]

If there is a reason for gene's A- I believe it would be for its band set which orch had some success with but I'm sadly unable to comment on it.

lol gud1. I've never used cb genesect before. Yeah, it's just really bad in this meta- the prevalence of gira-o, supportarc, bulky grounds, and ho-oh makes it really difficult to utilize scarf gene well. MMY is easy to revenge without relying on Gene, so it's not as important as it was in BW to revenge psychics. I honestly think that special gene probably would fare better in this meta, but there's no reason to, since mons like ogre and zekrom pull RK thing far better than Gene in this meta. Like I said before, this thing is C+ at best, it's just really shit at revenge killing. I guess it can use trollish boom to surprise some walls, but thats about as far as gene gimmick goes.

Now on Skarm, I hate this thing. Seriously. It has such as a horrible 4mss. It wants to run whirlwind, roost, defog, sr, toxic, taunt, and brave bird/payback. But of course, you only can pick 4. If you decide to forgo brave bird/payback, then you become a huge gengar bait (HP fire gengar running around doesn't help the matter too). If you don't run taunt, then random stuff just set hazards until your defog runs out, or gives a free turn for a special wallbreaker to switch in. If you skip on toxic, then you lack any practical way of punishing switches other than phazing. There's just loads of flaws with this thing, and scizor is honestly better at defogging and checking multiple threats at once. Is there any reason to run skarmory on a serious team?

 

[Haruno]

Uh skarm needs rocky helm to beat kanga, Js. Ekiller starts to run overheat now so that's a moot point again (it's on the analysis lol). Skarm fails against the most prevalent physical attackers (ekiller, krom, blaze) and is outright deadweight against special attacks. It has a much harder time finding setup opportunities in the current meta since everything threatens it so goddamn much. God forbid your incredibly situational sturdy + counter bullshit.

 

[NightJackal]

Meh, Skarm really isn't good. It has the worst 4mss I've ever seen, Ubers is plainly too much for it. And with MegaGar on the loose, it has gotten even worse. I suggest a drop as well.

 

[realiti]

Meh, Skarm really isn't good. It has the worst 4mss I've ever seen, Ubers is plainly too much for it. And with MegaGar on the loose, it has gotten even worse. I suggest a drop as well.

I don't really get how it has 4MSS. All it needs is Hazard, Roost, Whirlwind,and Defog/Toxic/Brave Bird. Sure, missing those moves might be bad, but it's still managable. But yeah, Mega Gengar can easily get rid of Skarmory, or weaken it enough so something else can kill it. But to say it isn't good is just plain wrong, it's very viable, just not as good as titans like Kyogre and Ho-Oh. However, i still think a drop might be the better descision

 

[Blue Jay]

I don't think the 4MSS is especially bad. Roost and Whirlwind are obviously necessary, it generally wants to use Spikes or Defog since it finds free turns and those are a good way to use them (both don't fit on one set for obvious reasons). Stealth Rock should be easy enough to fit onto a team elsewhere. After that it picks between Toxic, Taunt and Brave Bird. Now these are certainly all moves it wants, but there is some redundancy between Toxic and Taunt (both can hamper walls, Taunt is better against support Pokemon, Toxic is better against offensive threats switching in) and Brave Bird has very few (albeit important) targets. And some of these things can be handled by teammates.

The bigger problem I see are the weaknesses of Skarmory's typing. While it's great in a lot of ways (Steel type that's immune to Ground can check Ground types, Extremekiller Arceus without Overheat, generally just a lot of resistances and immunities with few weaknesses), being a physical wall that cannot at all check some of the premier physical attackers such as Ho-Oh, Zekrom, Blaziken and potentially Mega Mewtwo X (you need Brave Bird for Taunt + 3 attacks and lose against Bulk Up either way) is lame. As is being a Steel type that cannot check Geomancy Xerneas at all (unless it is full health with Stealth Rock off the field, and even then you're sacrificing Skarmory to just to phaze Xerneas).

 

[NightJackal]

I don't think the 4MSS is especially bad. Roost and Whirlwind are obviously necessary, it generally wants to use Spikes or Defog since it finds free turns and those are a good way to use them (both don't fit on one set for obvious reasons). Stealth Rock should be easy enough to fit onto a team elsewhere. After that it picks between Toxic, Taunt and Brave Bird. Now these are certainly all moves it wants, but there is some redundancy between Toxic and Taunt (both can hamper walls, Taunt is better against support Pokemon, Toxic is better against offensive threats switching in) and Brave Bird has very few (albeit important) targets. And some of these things can be handled by teammates.

Spikes OR Defog, Brave Bird OR Taunt OR Toxic... basically five moves for two slots. And since Skarmory without hazards is almost pointless, at least in my opinion, you have to choose between Taunt OR Brave Bird OR Toxic OR Defog, and unlike other Pokemon, whatever you don't pick can really hurt Skarmory's effectiveness. Skarmory does have some viability, yes. However:
Reserved for Pokemon with large offensive or defensive capability. They are designed to serve specific roles for a team and may offer valuable utility. They often need certain amounts of support and/or suffer to a degree from opportunity cost.
That's B-Rank's definition. Skarmory doesn't really have large defensive capability-good, yes, large, I heavily doubt it. And it suffers from high opportunity cost. And there's always what you mentioned: it's a Steel type that can't check Xerneas. Plus. MegaGar laughs at it (not as bad as with Chansey, but you get the idea). C-Rank is more fitting.

 

[realiti]

Spikes OR Defog, Brave Bird OR Taunt OR Toxic... basically five moves for two slots. And since Skarmory without hazards is almost pointless, at least in my opinion, you have to choose between Taunt OR Brave Bird OR Toxic OR Defog, and unlike other Pokemon, whatever you don't pick can really hurt Skarmory's effectiveness. Skarmory does have some viability, yes. However:
Reserved for Pokemon with large offensive or defensive capability. They are designed to serve specific roles for a team and may offer valuable utility. They often need certain amounts of support and/or suffer to a degree from opportunity cost.
That's B-Rank's definition. Skarmory doesn't really have large defensive capability-good, yes, large, I heavily doubt it. And it suffers from high opportunity cost. And there's always what you mentioned: it's a Steel type that can't check Xerneas. Plus. MegaGar laughs at it (not as bad as with Chansey, but you get the idea). C-Rank is more fitting.

Are you going to look at skarmory's good side? It counters EKiller, Lando-T, Groudon, Excadrill. Steel/Flying is unique typing that helps it take on big threats. Skarm could drop to B-, buf not C-

 

[Haruno]

Are you going to look at skarmory's good side? It counters EKiller, Lando-T, Groudon, Excadrill. Steel/Flying is unique typing that helps it take on big threats. Skarm could drop to B-, buf not C-

Ekiller carries overheat according to the analysis so skarm fails there. Sd ghostceus overpowers it while sd groundceus is somewhat checked though.
lando-t k, though it won't stay in anyhow and will either uturn or set up rocks so technically skarm doesnt stop landoge from doing its job nor does skarm have the ability to stop sd landoge outside of whirlwind/counter.
Groudon ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh this is really matchup dependant and groudon could be running a set that lets it plow through skarm though those are uncommon I assume. LO stone edge = gg though after a sd boost
Exca is non existent.

Let's look at more prevalent physical threats shall we?
Zekrom: easy ohko with bolt miss
blaziken: easy reduce to sturdy with flare blitz
mmx: taunt = gg

Needless to say special attackers bulldoze through it. Overall I think skarm is far too specialized in order to be that effective in the current metagame.

 

[Blue Jay]

Spikes OR Defog, Brave Bird OR Taunt OR Toxic... basically five moves for two slots. And since Skarmory without hazards is almost pointless, at least in my opinion, you have to choose between Taunt OR Brave Bird OR Toxic OR Defog, and unlike other Pokemon, whatever you don't pick can really hurt Skarmory's effectiveness. Skarmory does have some viability, yes. However:
Reserved for Pokemon with large offensive or defensive capability. They are designed to serve specific roles for a team and may offer valuable utility. They often need certain amounts of support and/or suffer to a degree from opportunity cost.
That's B-Rank's definition. Skarmory doesn't really have large defensive capability-good, yes, large, I heavily doubt it. And it suffers from high opportunity cost. And there's always what you mentioned: it's a Steel type that can't check Xerneas. Plus. MegaGar laughs at it (not as bad as with Chansey, but you get the idea). C-Rank is more fitting.

I feel you're overstating a lot of its flaws. If it has Brave Bird it 2HKOs Mega Gengar, which only 2HKOs in return, meaning it can play mindgames with Mega Gengar (without Taunting Skarmory can set Spikes or heal off most the damage, but if Gengar Taunts and is attacked it has to use Destiny Bond to kill Skarmory, which is just the same as it does with most Pokemon). It can also run Shed Shell against Mega Gengar if it likes. Outside of Mega Gengar, Brave Bird's utility extends only to Mega Mewtwo X, meaning that it's hardly an absolute must. Defog alongside Spikes is quite absurd; why you would opt for both on one set is beyond me. Taunt's utility is not enormous; due to Skarmory's poor Speed it can only really Taunt the likes of the pink blobs and Ferrothorn (or the likes of support Arceus on the switch). Toxic has less utility with every Toxic user on Skarmory's team (and considering it has no place in offensive teams there's a good chance that there will be other status users). I strongly disagree that Skarmory's effectiveness is severely compromised by its 4MSS; its alternative options have about as much utility as good options do on most Pokemon. The opportunity cost also puzzles me; it is not a Mega Evolution or an Arceus forme, so its use does not really restrict its team options (apart from building synergistically around it, as is important with most Pokemon and not really considered an opportunity cost). Again, I feel that the integral flaw that is its weakness against major physical attackers (Blaziken, Ho-Oh and Zekrom) is far greater than those you highlight, which are overstated or can be mitigated through effective teambuilding.

That is not to say that I am defending its current ranking, and if you thought so you misinterpreted my original post. B- sounds a lot more appropriate; its utility in checking threats is not great, but support options like Spikes or Defog help to compensate this. It is in many ways an inferior Klefki that finds a niche in checking different threats than Klefki.

 

[NightJackal]

I feel you're overstating a lot of its flaws. If it has Brave Bird it 2HKOs Mega Gengar, which only 2HKOs in return, meaning it can play mindgames with Mega Gengar (without Taunting Skarmory can set Spikes or heal off most the damage, but if Gengar Taunts and is attacked it has to use Destiny Bond to kill Skarmory, which is just the same as it does with most Pokemon). It can also run Shed Shell against Mega Gengar if it likes. Outside of Mega Gengar, Brave Bird's utility extends only to Mega Mewtwo X, meaning that it's hardly an absolute must. Defog alongside Spikes is quite absurd; why you would opt for both on one set is beyond me. Taunt's utility is not enormous; due to Skarmory's poor Speed it can only really Taunt the likes of the pink blobs and Ferrothorn (or the likes of support Arceus on the switch). Toxic has less utility with every Toxic user on Skarmory's team (and considering it has no place in offensive teams there's a good chance that there will be other status users). I strongly disagree that Skarmory's effectiveness is severely compromised by its 4MSS; its alternative options have about as much utility as good options do on most Pokemon. The opportunity cost also puzzles me; it is not a Mega Evolution or an Arceus forme, so its use does not really restrict its team options (apart from building synergistically around it, as is important with most Pokemon and not really considered an opportunity cost). Again, I feel that the integral flaw that is its weakness against major physical attackers (Blaziken, Ho-Oh and Zekrom) is far greater than those you highlight, which are overstated or can be mitigated through effective teambuilding.

That is not to say that I am defending its current ranking, and if you thought so you misinterpreted my original post. B- sounds a lot more appropriate; its utility in checking threats is not great, but support options like Spikes or Defog help to compensate this. It is in many ways an inferior Klefki that finds a niche in checking different threats than Klefki.

Point taken. However, Mega Gengar can also play mindgames with it just as effectively. And without Brave Bird MegaGar is free to get the kill. Defog alongside Spikes isn't very good, I'll admit, but then you're once again at that spot where you have to pick 5 moves for two slots. Let's drop Taunt, since you say its utility is not enormous. So you have Spikes or Defog and Brave Bird or Toxic, right? Now, every special attacker in existence with a hint of bulk takes Skarm for a ride through hell, so I'm not gonna stand at this. Haruno already said that most physical attackers can easily take care of it as well. Even is 4mss isn't as bad as I think (and I admit I think it's pretty bad), it still has numerous flaws.
And no, Skarm isn't an inferior Klefki, because Klefki is a swagplayer that can't check or counter anything if it's unlucky and should die in a hole.

Overall I think skarm is far too specialized in order to be that effective in the current metagame.

That pretty much sums it up.

 

[Haruno]

Great so now that we got all that covered

Skarm for C rank
Gene for B/+/- rank
Aggron for C- rank.

make it happen plz

 

[Tesung]

I think that a+ is too high for lando t. While it is undeniably a good mon in ubers, it doesn't check enough things to justify that, nor does it exploit free turns well enough. Just look at how
It matches up with the rest of a/s rank.
Gengar: can't switch in, trapped by icy wind gar
Kyogre: lol
Mewtwo:loses to any set with an ice move, which is most, beats mmx if no ice punch
Xerneas: loses to any set
Arceus normal: checks it, but loses if it switches in
Blaziken: checks well, needs to be very physically defensive to do so, loses in sun, switches in once. Impressive considering how strong blaziken is
Ho-oh : checks it, needs to be physically defensive to switch in well, hates switching into sacred fire
Palkia: loses
Ygod: loses
Ghosty: loses
Darkrai: loses
Deo a: loses
Deo s: let's it get hazards
Dialga: checks very well, can't switch in
Groudon: checks amazingly well, can struggle defensive sets with toxic/lava plume
Scizor: a wash IMO, toxic mega Zor stalls it out
Zekrom: amazing check, struggles with mixed sets with Draco
Arceus electric: loses
Arceus water :loses
Arceus fairy: loses
Genesect:loses

As you can see, it loses to far
Too many too threats. It does check a lot of hard to check mons, which is why it still deserves a. Sr, u turn, and hazard resilience help too.
However, losing to nearly all special attackers and nearly all arceus forms are too big of liabilities for A+
:)

 

[Reviver]

• Lando T cannot even check Ekiller properly.
• Only advantage over Groudon is typing and better check to Blaziken.
• No phazing
• No phazing
• No phazing
• Overrated pokemon

 

[Kebabe]

Its the only legit counter to Blaziken who otherwise destroys balance and stall (def Arceus-Fairy/Water is ok but meh). So basically you have too run it if you are going too use something other then offense.

It also checks Zekrom that also is a mon you have too have something vs.
Building a team that can handle offensive Groudon now w/o Lati@s and Giratina being much worse is really difficult w/o using Lando.
Both Double dance and CB is excellent sets. (CB beats E-Killer)

It might not be a great Pokemon but its more often then not a necessity to have on your team, just look at the SPL stats, it was 1st last week in the usage stats and its 5th overall.

 

[TheTraininator]

I don't really play too much Ubers so you don't have to take my question too seriously, but... What's keeping Yveltal out of S? Fairies? It can do pretty much everything, has great sustain on offensive sets and hits hard on defensive sets.

 

[Disaster Area]

Also the lack of a significant movepool on either the physical or special end. I mean its options are great, but it would be even better with pursuit/knock off/aura sphere/sword dance/CM/Brave Bird etc. etc. but yeah it's hard to poioint to any one thing that stops it being S rank, it's more an accumulation of lots of little issues here and there. Still there's not really any opportunity cost to it since it's so dissimilar to any other pokemon (other than mandibuzz LOL)

 

[SomeDrunkRockLee]

Some people probably won't agree that it should get use in Ubers at all, but I think Shedinja is a viable candidate for mid/low C tier. While it requires keeping hazards off the field and keeping it away from status, Shedinja can effectively perform a few very useful functions.

- Shedinja can force switches better than virtually any other Pokemon in the game. How many other Pokemon can come in on Specs Kyogre without a fear in the world? Several ubers don't run coverage that hits Shedinja, making it's job easier.

- So what is it's job? Baton Pass. With a focus sash, shedinja can almost guarantee a baton passed Swords Dance to the likes of Arceus-Normal, Rayquaza, or Blaziken. Basically, it works like this:

Shedinja comes in on something it knows it can force out; Kyogre and Xerneas (lacking HP fire), both S-Rank mons, are great examples. As they switch, it sets up Swords Dance. At this point, unless they bring in something with a multihit move (lol) or taunt (more of a concern), Shedinja has a guaranteed baton pass. Either it takes a hit with Focus Sash and Baton Passes, or it gets Toxiced/Will-O-Wisped/Etc. and Baton Passes before those conditions can damage it at all. The biggest advantage that Shedinja has over it's other Baton Passers is this slow baton pass- it can virtually guarantee passing +2 Attack to a Sweeper *without that sweeper having to take any attacks,* something that neither Mew nor Scoliopede can boast.

NOTE: Hippowdon causes problems for Shedinja, as it can KO by switching in. Keep this in mind, and don't try to set up if they have a Hippo; Khan can also beat if it has crunch, but otherwise is helpless.

TL;DR:
Shedinja can virtually guarantee passing +2 Attack to Extremekiller Arceus or Blaziken (can be stopped if their team has taunt/hippowdon/crunch khan) with the latter taking no more than Rocks damage. Despite the team support that it requires (rs/defog, already seen on many teams), I believe this both gives Shedinja a very viable niche in ubers where it can prosper despite it's problems.

I nominate Shedinja for mid/low C.

 

[orch]

rocks, sneak, toxic, wow, and spikes are incredibly common in this meta. You're pretty much forced to run other mediocre mons with it to be even remotely viable (hello espeon, xatu, and absol-mega (this thing is ass anyways)). Rank E at best.

 

[SomeDrunkRockLee]

rocks, sneak, toxic, wow, and spikes are incredibly common in this meta. You're pretty much forced to run other mediocre mons with it to be even remotely viable (hello espeon, xatu, and absol-mega (this thing is ass anyways)). Rank E at best.

So, rocks should be taken care of, that's a given. Same with spikes. That's the team support it needs.

Toxic and Wisp don't phaze Shed if you bothered to read my post. It's job is to come in on something it can force out and set up SD. If something comes in with Toxic or Wisp, that's fine by shed. It can eat the Toxic and Baton Pass out before dying. Allows it to come in as death fodder later, too, if needed. It's role is a one and done type of thing.

By the same logic, shadow sneak doesn't phase it either; it sets up SD on a switch, eats shadow sneak with it's sash, and passes to Blaze or Arceus. You have no reason to run a magic bouncer; you simply need a rapid spinner or defogger as team support (and something that can make use of a +2 Attack boost. I assume that's obvious).

 

[Blue Jay]

This is all assuming that Baton Passing a Swords Dance once is a valuable and relevant enough niche to dedicate an entire team slot and considerable support to. It isn't.

Shedinja is a remarkably terrible Pokemon and not worth placing for any reason other than to discourage its use.

 

[SomeDrunkRockLee]

This is all assuming that Baton Passing a Swords Dance once is a valuable and relevant enough niche to dedicate an entire team slot and considerable support to. It isn't.

Shedinja is a remarkably terrible Pokemon and not worth placing for any reason other than to discourage its use.

With monsters like Blaze running around and the ability to trap and take out specific counters with Mega-Gengar, a free +2 isn't something to be taken lightly. After a Baton Pass, for instance, Blaziken can OHKO most of the tier; what it can't handle can be taken out or weakened significantly by Mega Gengar. It's definitely viable, and while far from a top tier contender, Shedinja definitely deserves some credibility as a niche mon.